Interfaith Dialogue - 1o1 Biblical Contradictions

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1o1 Biblical Contradictions

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Topic: 1o1 Biblical Contradictions

Posted By: Nazleen
Subject: 1o1 Biblical Contradictions
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 4:46pm

For those of you believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God.
By
Lucifer

The 101 contradictions makes it clear that the Bible has not been written by scholars attempting to write a �factual� history but by propagandists.

�Conspiracy� J�Accuse.

There are a number of legal and non-legal definitions of �conspiracy;� but generally A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design should suffice. I accuse the Christians in general of being co-collaborators in a conspiracy to corrupt and pervert humanity, by alleging that their �Holy Bible� represents the �highest truth,� and that their genocidal, infanticidal, homophobic God is the actual Creator of the Universe (i.e., the God of Physics). This is not a trivial matter; today we see that it is the two most prominent Christian nations in the world, the Anglo-American Christian narco-terrorists/ state terrorists who are at the forefront to of World Capitalist revolution, the holocaust of all militant enemies and the economic and sexual enslavement of humanity under Capitalism.

The head of state of the British narco-terrorists is Elizabeth Windsor, who is also the temporal head and �defensor fides (defender of the faith)� of the international Anglican (Episcopalian in the US) Church. In America the George Bush family are also practicing Episcopalians (with the exception of George W�s wife who is a Methodist)> The new president Obama is also a Christian yet global war and Capitalist imperialism goes on as before. The legacy of Christianity is that of crusades and holocausts, inquisitions, tyranny, monetarism (Capitalism), loan sharking (usury) and imperialism. The history of Latin American since the end of WW2 shows a trail of narco-terrorism, CIA backed coups, dictators of the far right, death squads and the torture murder and genocide of much of the political Left; that is the legacy of Christian state terrorism.

There appears to be at least one Christian here offering a cash reward for anyone who can prove the many claims in the Zeitgeist move, based on Jordan Maxwell�s �Sons of God,� which offers argument and evidence of numerous historical sun-gods who were allegedly miraculously born, given divine status and entwined with astro-theology. Unfortunately ancient history is often the propaganda of tyrants and prophets, entwined with miracles stories and myth; �proving� or disproving the truth of such legends is often impossible.

I would also offer a challenge to any Christian who can offer a refutation of all 101 contradictions, thus giving weight to the long held theory that the Bible is the word of God (who would clearly surely be the cosmos�s most accurate historian). My offer is that of 73 virgins in the afterlife (the Muslims currently offer 72), though I am quite sure that this reward shall not be collected, particularly since the Christian Capitalists bear the curse of Jesus (i.e., the Capitalists allegedly end up in Hell).

I have a graduate degree in Theology and Religious Studies; my second subject was History. I also have a post-graduate degree in education. I do not teach in schools but I am a qualified school teacher and I am quite familiar with the process of marking student�s essays.

If the Bible is the word of the actual Creator, I would expect to give Her an A+ for historical methodology and
moral philosophy in the same way that I would give Her an A+ in Physics, Chemistry, mathematics, astronomy and other sciences.

Since we are considering the Bible to have been written by God, it would be unfair to judge her by the standard of a High School student, but rather by the standard of a PhD student.

I would have to fail Her on historical methodology; I would not even mark the paper. On moral philosophy with regards to the justifications for rape, genocide, infanticide, human and animal sacrifice cultism, cannibalism etc., not only would I have to fail her and return the paper unmarked, in addition I would consider Her to be criminally insane and the definition of �evil.� I would also consider it to be the case that anyone who believed that this was the �word of God� was also criminally insane, and a morally (i.e., the discernment of good and evil) worthless individual.

Bear in mind that since we are speaking of the alleged �infallible word of God� it shall be insufficient to justify �some� of the Biblical contradictions; in order to justify the infallibility of the Bible, �all� of the contradictions must be justified.

st**idity.

We are the most educated, scientific and literate generation in all of known history. Were to go back in time to meet the authors of the Bible, we would probably consider them to be primitive and overly superstitious blood sacrifice cultists; whereas to them we would seem as if gods; our science would give them the impression that we had great magical powers; our weapon technology would make us invincible. A common perspective taken by victims of religious hypnosis is that if some ancient ancestor rambles on about metaphysical matters, that this person should be taken more seriously than an educated, literate modernist.

Feurbachian projection (Anthromorphism). Psychology of religion 101.

When George �God told me to invade Iraq� Bush�s god is clearly the god of state terrorism, narco-terrorism; a god that lusts for oil, opium, money and human slavery; a god that drops depleted uranium ion women and children for the purposes of Capitalist imperialism. Clearly Bush�s Capitalist is most people�s definition of the Devil. Similarly with the God of our ancient ancestors; their God was an angry, wrathful, proto-fascist who despised the gods and peoples of other tribes, it was simply a projection of our ancestors own consciousness. Similarly my god is a militant black lesbian Jewish Communist. This projection of God or �definition� of God is a quite separate issue to the issue of the existence of a Creator.

Replies:

Posted By: Nazleen
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 5:02pm

The following 101 contradictions have been circulating the Internet for years.

________________

101 Clear

Contradictions in the Bible

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

(a) God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)

(b) Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

(a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)

(b) One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

How many fighting men were found in Judah?

(a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)

(b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

(a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)

(b) Three (I Chronicles 21:12)

How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)

(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)

How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?

(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)

(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)

How long did he rule over Jerusalem?

(a) Three months (2 Kings 24:8)

(b) Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)

The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?

(a) Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8)

(b) Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)

When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?

(a) After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)

(b) Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)

How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?

(a) Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)

(b) Seven (Genesis 7:2).But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)

When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?

(a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4)

(b) Seven thousand (I Chronicles 18:4)

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?

(a) Forty thousand (I Kings 4:26)

(b) Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25)

In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?

(a) Twenty-sixth year (I Kings 15:33 - 16:8)

(b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1)

How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple?

(a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2)

(b) Three thousand three hundred (I Kings 5:16)

Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?

(a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26)

(b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5)

Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab?

(a) Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6)

(b) Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11)

How many were the children of Zattu?

(a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8)

(b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13)

Posted By: Nazleen
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 5:07pm

How many were the children of Azgad?

(a) One thousand two hundred and twenty-two (Ezra 2:12)

(b) Two thousand three hundred and twenty-two (Nehemiah 7:17)

How many were the children of Adin?

(a) Four hundred and fifty-four (Ezra 2:15)

(b) Six hundred and fifty-five (Nehemiah 7:20)

How many were the children of Hashum?

(a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:19)

(b) Three hundred and twenty-eight (Nehemiah 7:22)

How many were the children of Bethel and Ai?

(a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:28)

(b) One hundred and twenty-three (Nehemiah 7:32)

Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close.The totals obtained from each book is as follows:

(a) 29,818 (Ezra)

(b) 31,089 (Nehemiah)

How many singers accompanied the assembly?

(a) Two hundred (Ezra 2:65)

(b) Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67)

What was the name of King Abijah�s mother?

(a) Michaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah (2 Chronicles 13:2)

(b) Maachah, daughter of Absalom (2 Chronicles 11:20) But Absalom had only one daughter whose name was Tamar (2 Samuel 14:27)

Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem?

(a) Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40)

(b) No (Joshua 15:63)

Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary?

(a) Jacob (Matthew 1:16)

(b) Hell (Luke 3:23)

Jesus descended from which son of David?

(a) Solomon (Matthew 1:6)

(b) Nathan(Luke3:31)

Who was the father of Shealtiel?

(a) Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12)

(b) Neri� (Luke 3:27)

<img src="http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/bible-verses.gif">

Which son of Zerubbabel was an ancestor of Jesus Christ?

(a) Abiud (Matthew 1: 13)

(b) Rhesa (Luke 3:27) But the seven sons of Zerubbabel are as follows: i.Meshullam, ii. Hananiah, iii. Hashubah, iv. Ohel, v.Berechiah, vi. Hasadiah, viii. Jushabhesed (I Chronicles 3:19, 20). The names Abiud and Rhesa do not fit in anyway.

Who was the father of Uzziah?

(a) Joram (Matthew 1:8)

(b) Amaziah (2 Chronicles 26:1)

Who as the father of Jechoniah?

(a) Josiah (Matthew 1:11)

(b) Jeholakim (I Chronicles 3:16)

How many generations were there from the Babylonian exile until Christ?

(a) Matthew says fourteen (Matthew 1:17)

(b) But a careful count of the generations reveals only thirteen (see Matthew 1: 12-16)

Who was the father of Shelah?

(a) Cainan (Luke 3:35-36)

(b) Arphaxad (Genesis II: 12)

Was John the Baptist Elijah who was to come?

(a) Yes (Matthew II: 14, 17:10-13)

(b) No(John 1:19-21)

Would Jesus inherit David�s throne?

(a) Yes.So said the angel (Luke 1:32)

(b) No, since he is a descendant of Jehoiakim (see Matthew 1: I 1, I Chronicles 3:16).And Jehoiakim was cursed by God so that none of his descendants can sit upon David�s throne (Jeremiah 36:30)

Posted By: Nazleen
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 5:14pm

Jesus rode into Jerusalem on how many animals?

(a) One - a colt (Mark 11:7; cf Luke 19:3 5). �And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it.�

(b) Two - a colt and an ass (Matthew 21:7). �They brought the ass and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon.�

How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?

(a) By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)

(b) His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)

Where did Jesus first meet Simon Peter and Andrew?

(a) By the sea of Galilee (Matthew 4:18-22)

(b) On the banks of river Jordan (John 1:42).After that, Jesus decided to go to Galilee (John 1:43)

When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus� daughter already dead?

(a) Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, �My daughter has just died.�

(b) No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, �My little daughter is at the point of death.�

Did Jesus allow his disciples to keep a staff on their journey?

(a) Yes(Mark6:8)

(b) No (Matthew 10:9; Luke 9:3)

Did Herod think that Jesus was John the Baptist?

(a) Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16)

(b) No (Luke 9:9)

Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?

(a) Yes (Matthew 3:13-14)

(b) No (John 1:32,33)

Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism?

(a) Yes (John 1:32, 33)

(b) No (Matthew 11:2)

According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness?

(a) �If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true� (John 5:3 1)

(b) �Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true� (John 8:14)

When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day?

(a) Yes (Matthew 21:12)

(b) No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark I 1:1- 17).

The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree.Did the tree wither at once?

(a) Yes.(Matthew 21:19)

(b) No.It withered overnight (Mark II: 20)

Did Judas kiss Jesus?

(a) Yes (Matthew 26:48-50)

(b) No.Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12)

What did Jesus say about Peter�s denial?

(a) �The cock will not crow till you have denied me three times� (John 13:38).

(b) �Before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times� (Mark 14:30) . When the cock crowed once, the three denials were not yet complete (see Mark 14:72). Therefore prediction (a) failed.

Did Jesus bear his own cross?

(a) Yes (John 19:17)

(b) No (Matthew 27:31-32)

Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn?

(a) Yes(Matthew27:50-5 1;MarklS:37-38)

(b) No.After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, �Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!� And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46)

Did Jesus say anything secretly?

(a) No.�I have said nothing secretly� (John 18:20)

(b) Yes. �He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything� (Mark 4:34).The disciples asked him �Why do you speak to them in parables?� He said, �To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given� (Matthew 13: 1 0-11)

Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion?

(a) On the cross (Mark 15:23)

(b) In Pilate�s court (John 19:14)

Posted By: Nazleen
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 9:37pm

The gospels say that two thieves were crucified along with Jesus.Did both thieves mock Jesus?

(a) Yes (Mark 15:32)

(b) No.One of them mocked Jesus, the other defended Jesus (Luke 23:43)

Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion?

(a) Yes.He said to the thief who defended him, �Today you will be with me in Paradise� (Luke 23:43)

(b) No.He said to Mary Magdelene two days later, �I have not yet ascended to the Father� (John 20:17)

When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice.Did those who were with him hear the voice?

(a) Yes(Acts9:7)

(b) No(Acts22:9)

<img src="http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/bible-verses.gif">

When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground.Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground?

(a) Yes (Acts 26:14)

(b) No (Acts 9:7)

Did the voice spell out on the spot what Paul�s duties were to be?

(a) Yes (Acts 26:16-18)

(b) No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do.(Acts9:7;22: 10)

When the Israelites dwelt in Shittin they committed adultery with the daughters of Moab. God struck them with a plague.How many people died in that plague?

(a) Twenty-four thousand (Numbers 25:1 and 9)

(b) Twenty-three thousand (I Corinthians 10:8)

How many members of the house of Jacob came to Egypt?

(a) Seventy souls (Genesis 4&27)

(b) Seventy-five souls (Acts 7:14)

What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus?

(a) He bought a field (Acts 1: 18)

(b) He threw all of it into the temple and went away.The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5)

How did Judas die?

(a) After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5)

(b) After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18)

Why is the field called �Field of Blood�?

(a) Because the priests bought it with the blood money (Matthew 27:8)

(b) Because of the bloody death of Judas therein (Acts 1:19)

Who is a ransom for whom?

(a) �The Son of Man came...to give his life as a ransom for many� (Mark 10:45). �Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all... �(I Timothy 2:5-6)

(b) �The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the faithless for the upright� (Proverbs 21:18)

Is the law of Moses useful?

(a) Yes. �All scripture is... profitable...� (2 Timothy 3:16)

(b) No. �. . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness... �(Hebrews 7:18)

Posted By: Nazleen
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 9:42pm

What was the exact wording on the cross?

(a) �This is Jesus the King of the Jews� (Matthew 27:37)

(b) �The King of the Jews� (Mark 15:26)

(c) �This is the King of the Jews� (Luke 23:38)

(d) �Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews� (John 19:19)

Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist?

(a) Yes (Matthew 14:5)

(b) No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him.But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20)

Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve?

(a) Thaddaeus (Matthew 10: 1-4; Mark 3:13 -19)

(b) Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Luke�s gospel (Luke 6:12-16)

Jesus saw a man sitat the tax collector�s office and called him to be his disciple.What was his name?

(a) Matthew (Matthew 9:9)

(b) Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27)

Was Jesus crucified on the daytime before the Passover meal or the daytime after?

(a) After (Mark 14:12-17)

(b) Before. Before the feast of the Passover (John 1) Judas went out at night (John 13:30). The other disciples thought he was going out to buy supplies to prepare for the Passover meal (John 13:29). When Jesus was arrested, the Jews did not enter Pilate�s judgment hail because they wanted to stay clean to eat the Passover (John 18:28).When the judgment was pronounced against Jesus, it was about the sixth hour on the day of Preparation for the Passover (John 19:14)

Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion?

(a) Yes.(Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42)

(b) No.(John 12:27)

In the gospels which say that Jesus prayed to avoid the cross, how many times did �he move away from his disciples to pray?

(a) Three (Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42)

(b) One. No opening is left for another two times.(Luke 22:39-46)

Matthew and Mark agree that Jesus went away and prayed three times.What were the words of the second prayer?

(a) Mark does not give the words but he says that the words were the same as the first prayer (Mark 14:3 9)

(b) Matthew gives us the words, and we can see that they are not the same as in the first (Matthew 26:42)

What did the centurion say when Jesus dies?

(a) �Certainly this man was innocent� (Luke 23:47)

(b) �Truly this man was the Son of God� (Mark 15:39)

When Jesus said �My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me ? � in what language did he speak?

(a) Hebrew: the words are �Eloi, Eloi �..�(Matthew 27:46)

(b) Aramaic: the words are �Eloi, Eloi �.. �(Mark 15:34)

According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he died?

(a) �Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!� (Luke 23:46)

(b) "It is finished" (John 19:30).

Posted By: Nazleen
Date Posted: 09 September 2009 at 4:38pm

When Jesus entered Capernaum he healed the slave of a centurion.Did the centurion come personally to request Jesus for this?

(a) Yes (Matthew 8:5)

(b) No.He sent some elders of the Jews and his friends (Luke 7:3,6)

(a) Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17)

(b) Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5)

(a) God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3)

(b) Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc.(Genesis 11:12-16)

Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven?

(a) No (John 3:13)

(b) Yes.�And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven� (2 Kings 2:11)

<img src="http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/bible-verses.gif">

Who was high priest when David went into the house of God and ate the consecrated bread?

(a) Abiathar (Mark 2:26)

(b) Ahimelech, the father of Abiathar (I Samuel 1:1; 22:20)

Was Jesus� body wrapped in spices before burial in accordance with Jewish burial customs?

(a) Yes and his female disciples witnessed his burial (John 19:39-40)

(b) No. Jesus was simply wrapped in a linen shroud.Then the women bought and prepared spices �so that they may go and anoint him [Jesus)� (Mark 16: 1)

When did the women buy the spices?

(a) After �the Sabbath was past� (Mark 16:1)

(b) Before the Sabbath. The women �prepared spices and ointments.� Then, �on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment� (Luke 23:55 to 24:1)

At what time of day did the women visit the tomb?

(a) �Toward the dawn� (Matthew 28: 1)

(b) �When the sun had risen� (Mark 16:2)

What was the purpose for which the women went to the tomb?

(a) To anoint Jesus� body with spices (Mark 16: 1; Luke 23:55 to 24: 1)

(b) To see the tomb.Nothing about spices here (Matthew 28: 1)

(c) For no specified reason.In this gospel the wrapping with spices had been done before the Sabbath (John 20: 1)

Posted By: Nazleen
Date Posted: 09 September 2009 at 4:50pm

A large stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb.Where was the stone when the women arrived?

(a) They saw that the stone was �Rolled back� (Mark 16:4) They found the stone �rolled away from the tomb� (Luke 24:2) They saw that �the stone had been taken away from the tomb� (John 20:1)

(b) As the women approached, an angel descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and conversed with the women.Matthew made the women witness the spectacular rolling away of the stone (Matthew 28:1-6)

Did anyone tell the women what happened to Jesus� body?

(a) Yes. �A young man in a white robe� (Mark 16:5). �Two men ... in dazzling apparel� later described as angels (Luke 24:4 and 24:23). An angel - the one who rolled back the stone (Matthew 16:2).In each case the women were told that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5 footnote)

(b) No.Mary met no one and returned saying, �They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him� (John 20:2)

When did Mary Magdelene first meet the resurrected Jesus? And how did she react?

(a) Mary and the other women met Jesus on their way back from their first and only visit to the tomb.They took hold of his feet and worshipped him (Matthew 28:9)

(b) On her second visit to the tomb Mary met Jesus just outside the tomb. When she saw Jesus she did not recognize him. She mistook him for the gardener. She still thinks that Jesus� body is laid to rest somewhere and she demands to know where. But when Jesus said her name she at once recognized him and called him �Teacher.� Jesus said to her, �Do not hold me...� (John 20:11 to 17)

What was Jesus� instruction for his disciples?

(a) �Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me� (Matthew 2 8: 10)

(b) �Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God� (John 20:17)

When did the disciples return to Galilee?

(a) Immediately, because when they saw Jesus in Galilee �some doubted� (Matthew 28:17).This period of uncertainty should not persist

(b) After at least 40 days. That evening the disciples were still in Jerusalem (Luke 24:3 3). Jesus appeared to them there and told them, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high� (Luke 24:49). He was appearing to them �during forty days� (Acts 1:3), and �charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise ... �(Acts 1:4)

To whom did the Midianites sell Joseph?

(a) �To the Ishmaelites� (Genesis 37:28)

(b) �To Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh� (Genesis 37:36)

Who brought Joseph to Egypt?

(a) The Ishmaelites bought Joseph and then �took Joseph to Egypt� (Genesis 37:28)

(b) �The Midianites had sold him in Egypt� (Genesis 37:36)

(c) Joseph said to his brothers �I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt� (Genesis 45:4)

Does God change his mind?

(a) Yes. �The word of the Lord came to Samuel: �I repent that I have made Saul King...� (I Samuel 15:10 to 11)

(b) No.God �will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent� (I Samuel 15:29)

(c) Yes. �And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel� (I Samuel 15:35).Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions:

i.�The Lord was sorry that he made man� (Genesis 6:6)

�I am sorry that I have made them� (Genesis 6:7)

ii. �And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people� (Exodus 32:14).

iii. (Lots of other such references).

The Bible says that for each miracle Moses and Aaron demonstrated the magicians did the same by their secret arts.Then comes the following feat:

(a) Moses and Aaron converted all the available water into blood (Exodus 7:20-21)

(b) The magicians did the same (Exodus 7:22). This is impossible, since there would have been no water left to convert into blood.

Who killed Goliath?

(a) David (I Samuel 17:23, 50)

(b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19)

Who killed Saul?

(a) �Saul took his own sword and fell upon it.... Thus Saul died... (I Samuel 31:4-6)

(b) An Amalekite slew him (2 Samuel 1:1- 16)

Does every man sin?

(a) Yes.�There is no man who does not sin� (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810)

(b) No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. �Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1). �We should be called children of God; and so we are� (I John 3: 1). �He who loves is born of God� (I John 4:7). �No one born of God commits sin; for God�s nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God� (I John 3:9).But, then again, Yes! �If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us� (I John 1:8)

<img src="http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/bible-verses.gif">

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Who will bear whose burden?

(a) �Bear one another�s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ� (Galatians 6:2)

(b) �Each man will have to bear his own load� (Galatians 6:5)

How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection?

(a) Twelve (I Corinthians 15:5)

(b) Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:3 3)

Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?

(a) After his baptism, �the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ... (Mark 1:12-13)

(b) Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee - two more disciples.Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)

Was baby Jesus� life threatened in Jerusalem?

(a) Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)

(b) No. The family fled nowhere.They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)

When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond?

(a) They worshipped him, saying, �Truly you are the Son of God� (Matthew 14:33)

(b) �They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened� (Mark 6:51-52)

<img src="http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/bible-verses.gif">
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Posted By: wisdomseeker
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 6:15am

Assalamu alaikum,

Excellent work sister, may allah reward you for your efforts.

May Allah guide us to the right path surely He guides whom He wills

Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 9:53am

Ameen

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 16 January 2010 at 6:47pm

Nazleen wrote:

For those of you believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God.
By
Lucifer

The 101 contradictions makes it clear that the Bible has not been written by scholars attempting to write a �factual� history but by propagandists.

From the time that Cain and Abel made the first sacrifice to God, Jews, including Noah and Abraham, made animal sacrifices to God in many places.

When the Jews received the Ten Commandmens on Mount Sinai, one of the new laws stipulated that Jews were no longer allowed to bring sacrifices to God just anywhere.

The Torah says, "You may not worship God in such a manner. This you may do only on the site that God will choose from among all your tribes to place His Name there. You must seek His Presence, and you must go there. You will bring there your elevated offerings, your eaten sacrifices, your tithes, your hand-delivered elevated gifts, your general and specific pledges, the first born of your cattle and flocks...." (Deut. 12:4-6).

Furthermore, "You will not do then what we do here now, where each person does as he sees fit. For you have not yet come to the resting place and to the inheritance which the Lord your God gives you. But when you traverse the Jordan and you settle the land which the Lord your God gives you to inherit, and when He gives you rest from all your enemies round about, so that you dwell in safety, then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause His Name to dwell there. There you must bring all that I command you, your burnt elevated offerings, your eaten sacrirfices, your tithes, your elevated gifts, and all your choice pledges that you might vow to the Lord." (Deut 12:8-11).

The Torah continues: "Watch yourself! Lest you bring your burnt elevated offerings in any place you see fit. Only in the place that the Lord will choose, somewhere from among your tribes, there shall your bring your burnt elevated offerings, and there you must do all that I command you concerning this." (Deut 12:13-14)

Thus, once King Solomon completed and dedicated the , animal sacrifices were offered only in the Temple. It would be a sin to offer sacrifices in any other place. And once the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE, no more animal sacrifices were offered.

What replaced animal sacrifices in Jewish practice?

Prayer has taken the place of sacrifices in Jewish practice. Hosea 14:3 reads, "Take with you words, and turn to the Lord. Say to Him, forgive all iniquity and receive us graciously, so we will offer the words of our lips instead of calves."

In some ways, Jewish prayer services parallel the ancient sacrificial practices. The extra service on the Jewish Sabbath, for example, parallels the extra Shabbat offering.

Even in Biblical times when sacrifices were made, Jews saw repentance as the most important and sacrifice as the least important way to gain forgiveness from God.

Few sins required animal sacrifice. According to the Torah, forgiveness for an intentional sin could only be atoned for through repentance, not through an animal sacrifice (Psalms 32:5, 51:16-19). Animal sacrifices were only prescribed for unintentional sins (Leviticus 4:2, 13, 22, 27; 5:5, 15 and Numbers 15:30). The one exception was when an individual who was accused of theft swore falsely in an effort to gain acquittal (Leviticus 5:24-26).

Furthermore, sacrifices could not make amends for a crime unless the person making the offering sincerely repented before making the sacrifice and made restitution to any person harmed by the sin.

In addition, sacrifices could only be made in the Temple, while prayers could be recited anywhere. Upon completion of the building of the Holy Temple, King Solomon asked that prayer be used by those away from the Temple to obtain forgiveness (I Kings 8:46-50). Even during the time of the Temple, synagogues were used for prayer.

Thus, even in Biblical times, prayer and repentance were important means to atonement. Today Jews no longer practice animal sacrifice, but they gain forgiveness from God via prayer, repentance and good deeds.

We need to have a strong belief and complete faith that God is in absolute control of the world that we live in.

1 Chronicles 29:11 "Everything in the heavens and the earth is Yours, O Lord. We adore You as being in control of everything."

The Bible calls this God's sovereignty. That means He is the absolute authority in life. He's the ultimate ruler. He is in charge and He is in control. The Bible teaches us that God is in control of the world. He created the world and all that is in it. He sustains this world by the power of His word.

Hebrews 11:3 God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together. The Contemporary English

Not only is God in control of the world; He is also in control of history. We are moving toward a climax. We are moving forward to a grand climax. One day Jesus Christ is going to come back. One day there will be a judgment day. History is His-story. We're not going through just random acts of events that happen in life. There is a grand design. There is a purpose. There is a plan. And God is in control of history.

Not only is He in control of the world, not only is He in control of history; God is also in control of our lives. Therefore we need to walk in faith that what ever happens in our lives God can and will use it for our eternal good. God is in control.

There is a question that we need to answer before I get into the heart of this message.

If God is in control, then why do bad things happen to us?

You can see what is happening in the if something goes wrong then call for a summit thus all the UN come and decide what to instead of asking God what to do instead no we dont need God lets make our own decisions.

JEREMIAH 29: 11FOR I KNOW THE THOUGHTS THAT I THINK TOWARD YOU, SAITH THE LORD, THOUGHTS OF PEACE, AND NOT OF EVIL, TO GIVE YOU AN EXPECTED END

Proverbs 19:21 "Many are the plans in a man's heart but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails."

Proverbs 19:21 We may make a lot of plans, but the LORD will do what he has decided.

I think we must be carefull what or how we want to interpreted God's word before we inflcted any judgement.

Do not judge God by the pen of the author.

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 17 January 2010 at 11:29am

Nazleen wrote:

For those of you believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God.
By
Lucifer

The 101 contradictions makes it clear that the Bible has not been written by scholars attempting to write a �factual� history but by propagandists.

Nazleen I am not acussing you of anything Jesus was with out any sin He could destroy the whole Isreal with one word after they persecuted him and killed him and still he asked God to forgive them, but sometimes its good to criticize but those people whom you criticize must know spectrum of the criticism they are politicians they are only doing it for their country and thier pay check they don't even know the essence of brotherhood that our war is not against flesh and against any humans they msut be educated in humanism and righteousness like Jesus have told us and if they cant see it in a religious concept then they apply it in humanitarian way we are all humans aren't we so then we must behave like humans not animals not even animals behave like humans.

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 30 May 2010 at 1:19am

You demand respect for Islam and the Qur'an yet you say the ugliest things about the Bible. Anyone who believes that the Bible is absolutely infallible is not in complete control of their faculties and anyone who would try and prove that the Jews and Christians are "infidels" is weird as well. Islam sprang directly from the Hebrew and Christian Bibles. The Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) admired the Jews and Christians that visited the Kaaba in Mecca and their belief in One True God. There are many instances in the Qur'an that are directly adopted from the Jewish Torah and the Christian Bible. To say that the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was uninfluenced by these travelers is simply to ignore facts.

Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 01 June 2010 at 2:26am

Nazleen, you really think you are a good Muslim by creating huge posts full of anti-Christian polemics?

I wonder when the more clear-headed Muslims on this website reply to all of this.

-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 01 June 2010 at 9:03pm

I as a believer in truth, did my own research and on fundamental issues such as, who God is? and how salvation is achieved? and of course who Jesus really was? I found the claims of the Bible to be inconsistent to itself.
And by the way, pointing out what is in the book, without adding anything to it is not and should not be taken as insult, if one's belief is based on truth.

I know it hurts, when something you saw as the truth all your life, but upon studying it you find it to be inconsistent within itself, it is hard to coop with that fact, but if one values truth, its easy to reconcile and accept that fact.

I could never question the Bible, before I read it. I always respected it, I still do, but after reading and knowing it, I saw for myself that what was its reality. It is inconsistent and many fundamental issues oppose within its contents and lead me to believe that men played a role to change what God revealed to prophets before.
The fact is that it is nothing less or nothing more than that.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 04 June 2010 at 2:40pm

Hasan, To belive that the Holy Bible contains contradictions is correct, any work done by the hand of man, even under Divine guidance, is subject to error and contradiction. The Holy Qur'an itself (I read it in it's entirety also) contains contradictory elements when dealing with the treatment of "Peoples of the Book", the role of the Jews and their relationship with God as His chosen people, etc. Does this make the Holy Qur'an valueless? Of course not, but anyone saying that every word and thought in the Qur'an is without ANY error or contradiction is deceiving themself. The thing I noticed about the Holy Qur'an is that it is very different from the Holy Bible in style and form, but the overall picture is that the Holy Bible and the Holy Qur'an are in substantial agreement on most subjects and topics. Both books are worthy and deserving of respect from any believer in God, especially the spiritual descendents of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Ishmael.

Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 05 June 2010 at 2:22am

Hi,

I saw posts like this one, talking about "the contradictions of the Bible" lot of times, and I respect them.

But after time, I realize that the "contradictions of the Bible searchers" are not reading the Bible, but just taking the information. That's a big mistake, in my opinion.

As believers, we should accept and respect the Holy Books of each religion, and whenever we have a doubt coming from any of the Books, just look for the answer asking to the people who may know this answer.

To read the Bible just looking for mistakes or contradicitions is for me a time losing, and against all God Commandements. And at the same time, if any Christian is reading the Quran just to talk in bad way about it, is against God wish.

We really don't respect each other, when instead of increasing our knowledge just keep fighting and defending our "truth" as the best and the only one. There is nothing absolutely true but the existance of only one God.

Regards

-------------
No God wants the killing, but the peace.
The weapons are carried by people, not by religions.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 05 June 2010 at 9:17am

Larry wrote:

Hasan, To belive that the Holy Bible contains contradictions is correct, any work done by the hand of man, even under Divine guidance, is subject to error and contradiction.

God's words contain contradiction?Absolutely not but if yes then it is not word of God.

Larry wrote:

The Holy Qur'an itself (I read it in it's entirety also) contains contradictory elements when dealing with the treatment of "Peoples of the Book", the role of the Jews and their relationship with God as His chosen people, etc.

It is your misunderstanding.Quran doesnot contain such kind of contradiction.

Larry wrote:

Does this make the Holy Qur'an valueless? Of course not, but anyone saying that every word and thought in the Qur'an is without ANY error or contradiction is deceiving themself.

How we are deceiving ourself?explain please?

Larry wrote:

The thing I noticed about the Holy Qur'an is that it is very different from the Holy Bible in style and form, but the overall picture is that the Holy Bible and the Holy Qur'an are in substantial agreement on most subjects and topics. Both books are worthy and deserving of respect from any believer in God, especially the spiritual descendents of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Ishmael.

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 05 June 2010 at 3:58pm

How are you deceiving yourself? Because you claim that the Bible has errors but state that the Qur'an is perfect and anyone who has read the Qur'an knows that there are contradictions within it, especially the many statements regarding the beliefs and practices of the "People of the Book." But just because you say there are no contradictions in the Qur'an doesn't make it so. You act as if everyone should accept the Qur'an without question. But in Islam it is forbidden to question the Qur'an under any circumstances.

"But Bible of today is not real Bible of Jesus Christ." I don't know where you came up with this idea, perhaps you can explain what you mean.

Muhammad is mentioned in Bible as a Prophet so you must follow him." If you are saying that Muhammad is specifically mentioned in the Bible then you must have a Bible that I have never heard of, Muhammad is never mentioned or named in the Bible. If Muslims want to distort the Bible to fit their theology that is their thing. Perhaps you can quote the passages in the Bible that mention the Prophet Muhammad?

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 05 June 2010 at 8:28pm

Mansoor_ali wrote:

Larry wrote:

Hasan, To belive that the Holy Bible contains contradictions is correct, any work done by the hand of man, even under Divine guidance, is subject to error and contradiction.

God's words contain contradiction?Absolutely not but if yes then it is not word of God.

It is your misunderstanding.Quran doesnot contain such kind of contradiction.

Larry wrote:

Does this make the Holy Qur'an valueless? Of course not, but anyone saying that every word and thought in the Qur'an is without ANY error or contradiction is deceiving themself.

How we are deceiving ourself?explain please?

There are some similarities between Quran and Bible and i agree.Because both are from same God.

But Bible of today is not real Bible of Jesus Christ.

We only believe in those parts of Bible which agree with Quran.

Muhammad in mentioned in Bible as a Prophet so you must follow him.

Visit: http://unveilingchristianity.wordpress.com/2010/06/04/isaiah-prophecies-prophet-muhammad-s-a-w/ - Isaiah prophecises Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.
http://answering-christianity.com/predict.htm - lost people of Israel" are the people of Afghanistan and Kashmir today what a laugh muslims will bend over backwards to forge and force thier false believes in the bible with thir so called prophecies of Muhammad.
Muhammad was predicted to come in the Gospel of John:

Just a quick note, the Arabic word "Muhammad" is an expression which means "The honorable one" or "The glorified one" or "The admirable". Prophet Muhammad was the first in the Middle East to be named "Muhammad". Below, you will see how Jesus in today's Gospel of John had called this human Prophet which he predicted his comming "The honorable one".

Jesus in the Greek Bible used the Greek word "Periklytos" which means the admirable or glorified one. He called that predicted human prophet "Periklytos". This word corresponds exactly to the Arabic word "Muhammad" which also means the "admired one" or "glorified one." In other words, "Periklytos" is "Muhammad" in Greek.

Let us start...

In the Bible we can find the following four passages wherein Jesus (peace be upon him) predicts a great event:

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

John 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you."

In these four verses, the word "comforter" is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads the cause of another, one who councils or advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary volume VII, p.168). In these verses we are told that once Jesus (peace be upon him) departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify Jesus (peace be upon him), and he will guide mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.

It must be pointed out that the original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma." The word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} is the Greek root word for "spirit." There is no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek manuscripts, of which there are claimed to be over 24,000 today. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible translate this word as "Ghost" to convey their own personal understanding of the text. However, a more accurate translation is "Holy Spirit." More faithful and recent translations of the Bible, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), do indeed now translate it as "Holy Spirit." This is significant, and will be expounded upon shortly.

All Bibles in existence today are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the most ancient of which being those of the fourth century C.E. Any scholar of the Bible will tell us that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly identical. All Bibles in our possession today are the result of extensive cutting and pasting from these various manuscripts with no single one being the definitive reference.

What the translators of the Bible have done when presented with such discrepancies is to do their best to choose the correct version. In other words, since they can not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version" of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection techniques.

John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the "ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would find that they are not all in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".

Look how the muslims are using the scripture that they are slandering with corruption and evil is now good enough for a false prophecie

There had been many cases of deliberate modification of the Biblical text by members of the Christian clergy themselves, as well as deliberate large scale projects to "correct" the Bible, and the writings of "the early fathers," (such as the deliberate insertion of the verse of 1 John 5:7 which is now universally discarded) It is, therefore, possible that either:

1) The word "Holy" could have been dropped by a careless copyist., or

2) Someone could have inserted the word "Holy" to convey his personal understanding of the text.

Which was it? In order to arrive at the answer we must follow the same path of detective work the Biblical scholars themselves do. We must study the characteristics of the "Paraclete" and compare them to both the "Holy Spirit" and to a "Spirit." Muslims believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the one intended and not the Holy Ghost. In the Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas" Muhammad is mentioned by name here. The Trinitarian church, however, has done its utmost to obliterate all existing copies of "The Gospel of Barnabas," and to hide it from the masses or to label it a forgery (see chapter 7). For this reason, it becomes necessary to show that even the Gospels adopted by Paul's church also originally spoke of Muhammad (peace be upon him).

How could it be if Muhammad didn't even know the exact place in the the where his so called prophecies was, he and his so called angel should have known in which texts in the bible his prophcies must have originated but nowadays The muslims try thier utmost best to find a so called prophecy or a look like prohecy in the bible JUST to restore thier false prophet's name.

The power of this indwelling "paraclete" gives us the ability to "live by the Spirit so that we will not gratify the desires of the sinful flesh" and "Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Galatians%205.16 - Galatians 5:16 , http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Galatians%205.25 - 25 ). We, then, can have the "fruit of the Spirit" produced in our own lives ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Galatians%205.22 - Galatians 5:22 , http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Galatians%205.23 - 23 ) to the glory of God the Father. What a blessing to have the Holy Spirit in our lives as our "paraclete," our Comforter, our Encourager, our Counselor, and our Advocate. Thank you, Father, for your wonderful gift!

As you can read this is the spirit of God the holy spirit and not the unholy false prophet Muhammad.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 08 June 2010 at 9:41am

Larry wrote:

How are you deceiving yourself? Because you claim that the Bible has errors but state that the Qur'an is perfect and anyone who has read the Qur'an knows that there are contradictions within it, especially the many statements regarding the beliefs and practices of the "People of the Book."

Show me where is contradiction?

Larry wrote:

But just because you say there are no contradictions in the Qur'an doesn't make it so. You act as if everyone should accept the Qur'an without question. But in Islam it is forbidden to question the Qur'an under any circumstances.

Where you read that it is forbidden to question the Quran?

Larry wrote:

"But Bible of today is not real Bible of Jesus Christ." I don't know where you came up with this idea, perhaps you can explain what you mean.

You also agree with me that Bible contains contradiction.So my question is how God's words contain contradiction?We agree with those parts of Bible which donot contradict with Quran.For muslims Quran and Sunna is standard.

Now how i came up with this idea?Do you know many authors of Bible are unknown so how can i believe that your Bible is written by real disciples of Jesus Christ?Even you have no any original documents.Even christian community is not agreed on same type of Bible e.g Protestant and Catholic donot have common Bible.This is not a case with Sunni and Shia.Quran is same for every sect of Islam but it is not a case with Bible.

Larry wrote:

Muhammad is mentioned in Bible as a Prophet so you must follow him." If you are saying that Muhammad is specifically mentioned in the Bible then you must have a Bible that I have never heard of, Muhammad is never mentioned or named in the Bible. If Muslims want to distort the Bible to fit their theology that is their thing. Perhaps you can quote the passages in the Bible that mention the Prophet Muhammad?

There are many debates over this issue.But let's suppose Muhammad is not mentioned then its mean he is not Prophet?No because for muslims Quran and Sunna is standard not Bible.

But there are some passages where it is indication for Muhammad.

For excample:John 14:16,John 15:26,John 16:7-14 etc

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 08 June 2010 at 10:47am

JOUBERAR wrote:

What parts of the bible agree with the Quran come please show me.

For example:

Qur'an 17:23
Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him . . .

Exodus 20:3
You shall have no other gods before Me
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Qur'an 17:33
Nor take life which Allah has made sacred . . .

Exodus 20:13
You shall not kill

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Qur'an 17:32
Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

Exodus 20:14
You shall not commit Adultery

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There are many but those are enough.

As you can read this is the spirit of God the holy spirit and not the unholy false prophet Muhammad.

Shabir Ally beautifully mentioned this point whether it is spirit or Holy spirit in his debate.

Click here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kEkxG4fgs0 - Muhammed In The Bible? Shabir Ally vs Anis Shorrosh

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 08 June 2010 at 12:49pm

Mansoor_ali wrote:

JOUBERAR wrote:

What parts of the bible agree with the Quran come please show me.

JOUBERAR wrote:

The power of this indwelling "paraclete" gives us the ability to "live by the Spirit so that we will not gratify the desires of the sinful flesh" and "Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Galatians%205.16 - Galatians 5:16 , http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Galatians%205.25 - 25 ). We, then, can have the "fruit of the Spirit" produced in our own lives ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Galatians%205.22 - Galatians 5:22 , http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Galatians%205.23 - 23 ) to the glory of God the Father. What a blessing to have the Holy Spirit in our lives as our "paraclete," our Comforter, our Encourager, our Counselor, and our Advocate. Thank you, Father, for your wonderful gift!

As you can read this is the spirit of God the holy spirit and not the unholy false prophet Muhammad.

Where did the bible agree with Quran it never ever agreed with Quran because it was writen long before Muhammad apeared in the lime light and the QURAN disagree with the bible cos it mentioned that the bible was corrupted, I do not want fracments of his self imposed laws that he never obeyed.

Mathew 24 make it very clear that Muhammad was a deceiver of mankind.

³As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

⁴Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. ⁵For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, #fen-NIV-23960a - a ]'>[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23960a - a ]' and will deceive many. ⁶You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. ⁷Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. ⁸All these are the beginning of birth pains.

The Comforter:

Muslims claim that the Bible has been corrupted. One of their chief arguments refers to the Greek rendering for Comforter "paracletos" which means "advocate" or "helper". Their scholars translate this "paraclytos" and use this to point to Mohammed. The Muslims see Jesus' reference to the coming of the Comforter or helper (the paraclete) as fulfilled by Mohammed. They base this on quaran 61:6 where Mohammed is reckoned to be ahmad ("paraclytos"), "Jesus, the son of Mary, said 0 children of Israel! I am the apostle of God ... giving glad tidings of an apostle to come after me whose name shall be ahmad."
In all 5,366 manuscripts of the New Testament there is no reference to paraclytos (praised one,) so there is no textual evidence for this claim.
In sura 16:102 and sura 26:192-194 Mohammed's call was issued by the Holy Spirit who according to their teaching is the angel Gabriel. In contrast according to the Bible the Comforter is the Holy Spirit (John 14:26) who is God. This conflict certainly shows the Biblical illiteracy of the Koran's author.
What's more according to the Bible the very purpose of the coming of this helper is to bear witness to the truth who is Jesus (c/f John 14:6). And furthermore this helper whom Jesus and the Father would send would be in Christians and would abide with them forever (John 14:17). How can Mohammed be said to be living in Christians today after being dead 13 centuries?
In John 16:13 Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit will not speak on His own authority but that. He will glorify Christ (v. 14) and will take what is Jesus' and declare it unto you.
In Sura 33:40 Mohammed says of himself that he is the apostle of God, the seal of the prophets. This means that he supersedes Jesus who is an inferior prophet. He is speaking on his own authority, which is something that Jesus said his helper would not do. (Jesus also said that John the Baptist is the greatest prophet ever among men - Matt 11:11.).
One of the arguments for Mohammed being the helper is that Jesus promised to send another of the same kind (like Himself). Since Muslims look upon Jesus as being only a man, a prophet, to them this had to mean that He was going to send another man. They reject Jesus' deity and the fact that He pre existed as God's Son, who is spirit and that this was His eternal nature. He took upon Himself a human nature as an addition but He always existed as God's Son. The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is also God and that when Jesus said that He would send another like Himself it was to be of the same kind (eternal) in like nature. The Spirit would be with us forever which is something only God can promise and perform.
The timing of when the helper would be sent certainly contradicts the Koran. Jesus said that it "would not be many days from now" - see Acts 1:4-5. This was to be at the close of the 40 days, that he appeared after His resurrection. We know that this was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost, 50 days after His crucifixion. Mohammed did not come until 600 years later so this would mean that the disciples did not have the Comforter (paraclete) nor do we today since Mohammed is no longer here.
Another Biblical event that makes this claim by Muslims even more illogical is that the paraclete, who is identified as the Holy Spirit, was brooding over the waters in Genesis 1 and taking part in creation. It is obvious that this could not be Mohammed. Further it was by the same Holy Spirit that the egg inside Mary was impregnated so that she conceived. This certainly is not Mohammed! In addition we are told that the Comforter would be in us. Christians will all have in them the same Holy Spirit. How could this be Mohammed? He was a flesh and blood person who is no longer alive. How could he inhabit Christians , of all people, who do not believe in His teachings? Despite all this evidence, Muslims insist that the paraclete is a person of flesh and blood and not the Holy Spirit who is God Himself.

In conclusion:

The fact that Mohammed said that Jesus was a prophet is a very strong argument that can be used by Christians in their dialogue with Muslims. Just ask the question, "Is Jesus a prophet?" The answer will be "Mohammed said he was." "Can a true prophet lie? Muslims will answer in the negative.
"Well if Jesus is a true prophet then whatever he said should be heeded. Jesus claimed to be the only way to God. If Jesus is right then Mohammed is wrong. If Jesus is wrong, Mohammed is still wrong, because he said that Jesus was right."

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 08 June 2010 at 9:43pm

Blah Blah Blah......I haven't got the slightest idea of what all that psychobabble is about but I think you have too much time on your hands and too limited a mind to ber able to express yourself clearly. BTW, were you ever abducted by aliens?

Posted By: I♥Jesus
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 4:51am

I would like to make two comments here.
First, regarding Matthew 24:4-8
Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

It is interesting to compare Matthew 24:4-8 to the hadiths:
004.056.803 - Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions - - - -
Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman

The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about good, but I used to ask him about evil for fear that it might overtake me. Once I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were in ignorance and in evil and Allah has bestowed upon us the present good; will there by any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I asked, "Will there be good after that evil?" He said, "Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil)."I asked, "What will its Dakhan be?" He said, "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them." I said,"Will there by any evil after that good?" He said, "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Describe those people to us." He said, "They will belong to us and speak our language" I asked, "What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?" He said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief." I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

)009.084.065 - Dealing with Apostates - - Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Yasar

That they visited Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri and asked him about Al-Harauriyya, a special unorthodox religious sect, "Did you hear the Prophet saying anything about them?" Abu Sa'id said, "I do not know what Al-Harauriyya is, but I heard the Prophet saying, "There will appear in this nation---- he did not say: From this nation ---- a group of people so pious apparently that you will consider your prayers inferior to their prayers, but they will recite the Quran, the teachings of which will not go beyond their throats and will go out of their religion as an arrow darts through the game, whereupon the archer may look at his arrow, its Nasl at its Risaf and its Fuqa to see whether it is blood-stained or not (i.e. they will have not even a trace of Islam in them)."

Clearly both Jesus and Muhammad have prophesied the same thing here: Evil leaders and sects will arise out of both religions. They will appear to be the most authentic, but will actually be completely without God. I think there are sects of Christians and Muslims now which appear to fulfill these prophecies, and that the agreement of BIble and Hadith on this is notable.

Second is regarding this conclusion:
"Well if Jesus is a true prophet then whatever he said should be heeded. Jesus claimed to be the only way to God. If Jesus is right then Mohammed is wrong. If Jesus is wrong, Mohammed is still wrong, because he said that Jesus was right."

This conclusion is wrong because Islam agrees with Christianity that it is the Jesus who will be the righteous judge of everyone.
../mosque/sunnah/bukhari/055.sbt.html#004.055.657 -
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7)
Jesus exact words were, "No one proceeds to the Father except through me". Islam (Sunni Islam, at least) is in agreement here that Jesus is the Just ruler of humanity and our final arbiter with God. It is especially convincing if one removes the parenthetical comments added in by the translator and just reads the hadith as it was written.

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If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. 5:48

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 3:25pm

JOUBERAR

Where did the bible agree with Quran it never ever agreed with Quran because it was writen long before Muhammad apeared in the lime light and the QURAN disagree with the bible cos it mentioned that the bible was corrupted, I do not want fracments of his self imposed laws that he never obeyed.

Response

I have shown you some similarities but if you donot want to agree with me then i cannot do any thing.

Source of Quran and Bible is same that is GOD(ALLAH ALMIGHTY) but we believe in that Bible which was revealed to Jesus Christ.Bible of today is corrupted form of that Bible.

Not all parts of Bible are corrupt but mostly are.

Visit http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/ - Examining The Bible briefly discuss the problems in the Bible.

Another and my favorite Dr.Bart Ehrman http://www.bartdehrman.com/books/misquoting_jesus.htm - "The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why"

JOUBERAR

Mathew 24 make it very clear that Muhammad was a deceiver of mankind.

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,a]'>[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Response

Jesus says that many will come IN MY NAME claiming I AM THE CHRIST. The prophet Muhammad never claimed he was the Christ, that title was never given to him in the Quran, the term Christ is only given to Jesus in the Quran. Secondly, Muhammad never came in Jesus' name; Muhammad came for Allah's cause, not Jesus'. So therefore as we already see, the prophet Muhammad does not match the description given by Jesus.

JOUBERAR

The Comforter:

Muslims claim that the Bible has been corrupted. One of their chief arguments refers to the Greek rendering for Comforter "paracletos" which means "advocate" or "helper". Their scholars translate this "paraclytos" and use this to point to Mohammed. The Muslims see Jesus' reference to the coming of the Comforter or helper (the paraclete) as fulfilled by Mohammed. They base this on quaran 61:6 where Mohammed is reckoned to be ahmad ("paraclytos"), "Jesus, the son of Mary, said 0 children of Israel! I am the apostle of God ... giving glad tidings of an apostle to come after me whose name shall be ahmad."
In all 5,366 manuscripts of the New Testament there is no reference to paraclytos (praised one,) so there is no textual evidence for this claim.

Response

Shabir Ally in his debate with Anis Shorrosh shed light on the issue of "paracletos" and "paraclytos" .I donot know the exact words of Shabir so i am quoting his debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kEkxG4fgs0 - Muhammad in the Bible?Debate between Shabir Ally and Anis Shorrosh

JOUBERAR

in sura 16:102 and sura 26:192-194 Mohammed's call was issued by the Holy Spirit who according to their teaching is the angel Gabriel. In contrast according to the Bible the Comforter is the Holy Spirit (John 14:26) who is God. This conflict certainly shows the Biblical illiteracy of the Koran's author.

Response

It just shows how Quran improves the Bible on the issue of Holy Spirit.Trinity is a major problem in the christianity which christianty also cannot explain.But according to Bible Holy Spirit is not God.

Read John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Notice how the Father is being referred to as THE ONLY TRUE GOD.How is it possible for the Father to be the ONLY true God, while at the same time the Holy Spirit God as well?If the Holy Spirit is God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the ONLY true God.

JOUBERAR

What's more according to the Bible the very purpose of the coming of this helper is to bear witness to the truth who is Jesus (c/f John 14:6).

Response

Yes Muhammad did.Quran rightly witness to the truth who is Jesus.For example:

1.Jesus is not God.So there is no trinity.

2.Jesus didnot die for the sins it is just man-made ancient stories which you can find before the birth of Christ.

3.He is just Prophet.etc etc

If you donot want to believe then you are not true follower of Jesus Christ.It doesnot carry any weight if you say that i love my Jesus he is my savior etc etc

JOUBERAR

And furthermore this helper whom Jesus and the Father would send would be in Christians and would abide with them forever (John 14:17). How can Mohammed be said to be living in Christians today after being dead 13 centuries?

Response

No where it is written that Muhammad would be in Christians.Jesus Christ never use this word.The word christian was derived after Jesus Christ.Show me where disciples were called christians.So it is fake to claim that Muhammad would be in christianity.

Now how he may abide with you forever?Simple,it is a message of Quran and Sunna of Prophet that is abide with you forever.You are going to take meaning literally.

JOUBERAR

In John 16:13 Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit will not speak on His own authority but that. He will glorify Christ (v. 14) and will take what is Jesus' and declare it unto you.
In Sura 33:40 Mohammed says of himself that he is the apostle of God, the seal of the prophets. This means that he supersedes Jesus who is an inferior prophet. He is speaking on his own authority, which is something that Jesus said his helper would not do. (Jesus also said that John the Baptist is the greatest prophet ever among men - Matt 11:11.).

Response

Show me where Quran and Hadith say that Jesus is an inferior Prophet?There is not a single verese you can point out.

Yes Muhammad didnot speak on his own authority.Quran exactly says in 53:3-4 "Nor does he (Muhammad) speak of his own desire. It is but an Inspiration that is inspired [unto him]"

I agree that John the Baptist is the greatest prophet even greatest than Jesus Christ.

JOUBERAR

One of the arguments for Mohammed being the helper is that Jesus promised to send another of the same kind (like Himself). Since Muslims look upon Jesus as being only a man, a prophet, to them this had to mean that He was going to send another man. They reject Jesus' deity and the fact that He pre existed as God's Son, who is spirit and that this was His eternal nature. He took upon Himself a human nature as an addition but He always existed as God's Son. The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is also God and that when Jesus said that He would send another like Himself it was to be of the same kind (eternal) in like nature. The Spirit would be with us forever which is something only God can promise and perform.

Response

Show me your Holy Spirit.Can you show me?No.You even whole christianity cannot show me.But i can show you Prophet Muhammad in terms of his teachings and Quran but you cannot show me your Holy Spirt.So why i need to follow you?

Further Jesus is God's Son but in terms of servant.It is a common term that is used even before Jesus Christ.

There is not a single verse which talks about deity of Christ.

Now you are talking about that Holy Spirit is God.I already quoted John 17:3 to show that it is impossible for Holy Spirit to be God.

JOUBERAR

The timing of when the helper would be sent certainly contradicts the Koran. Jesus said that it "would not be many days from now" - see Acts 1:4-5. This was to be at the close of the 40 days, that he appeared after His resurrection. We know that this was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost, 50 days after His crucifixion. Mohammed did not come until 600 years later so this would mean that the disciples did not have the Comforter (paraclete) nor do we today since Mohammed is no longer here.

Response

Many times Jesus Christ also speak in parables.

Any way here is response by brother Umar Hassan:

If it is said that the Comforter was promised to the immediate disciples of Jesus � peace and blessings of Almighty Allah be upon him � and not to a people six hundred years later:

"and he (God) shall give You another Comforter, that he may abide with You for ever." John 14:16 (Emphasis mine)

Surprisingly, the Christian sees no difficulty in justifying the fulfillment of prophecies "since the world began," (Acts 3:21) and after over a millennium when Peter in his second sermon to the Jews, reminds them:

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord Your God raise up unto You of Your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear In all things what-so ever he shall say unto You." Acts 3: 22 (Emphasis mine)

All these "YE, YOU and YOURS" are from the Book of Deuteronomy, chapter 18, when Moses � peace and blessings of Almighty Allah be upon him � addressed his people and NOT the Jews at the time of Peter, thirteen hundred years later. The Gospel writers have put the same compromising words in the mouth of their Master which are begging for fulfillment for two thousand years. I think just one example will suffice:

"But when they persecute You in this city, flee Ye into another: for verily (most assuredly) I (Jesus) say unto You, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the son of man (Jesus) be come." Matthew 10: 25 (Emphasis mine)

Secondly, this claim made by the Christians is not up to the status, because according to the Bible, Disciples were already having the Holy Spirit

"...as my Father hath sent me, even so I send you (the disciples of Jesus), And when he had said this, be breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive Ye The Holy Spirit." John 20:21 �22 (Emphasis mine)

The disciples receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So if the "Holy Spirit" was with (1) John the Baptist, (2) Elizabeth. (3) Zacharias. (4) Simeon. (5) Jesus and (6) the Disciples of Jesus; then all this makes nonsense of the saying that "Another Comforter" and "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you." Therefore the Comforter is not the Holy Spirit.

You see, so simple it is to find the reality. You just have to use a common sense and there you are with the SOLUTION.

JOUBERAR

Another Biblical event that makes this claim by Muslims even more illogical is that the paraclete, who is identified as the Holy Spirit, was brooding over the waters in Genesis 1 and taking part in creation. It is obvious that this could not be Mohammed. Further it was by the same Holy Spirit that the egg inside Mary was impregnated so that she conceived. This certainly is not Mohammed! In addition we are told that the Comforter would be in us. Christians will all have in them the same Holy Spirit. How could this be Mohammed? He was a flesh and blood person who is no longer alive. How could he inhabit Christians , of all people, who do not believe in His teachings? Despite all this evidence, Muslims insist that the paraclete is a person of flesh and blood and not the Holy Spirit who is God Himself.

Response

Now please show me your Holy Spirit? I can show you Muhammad in terms of his teachings and Quran.Just show me what Holy Spirit did for christianity?

if you believe that Holy Spirit is God then you contradict with John 17:3

Note:I want to make it clear that what Muslims actually believe. We believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was predicted in the original Torah and Gospel revealed to Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them both) respectively. Some of these prophecies happened to remain preserved and found their way into the Bible, which also contains much falsehood according to Islamic teachings.

Thus, it is not a surprise for a Muslim to find that the predictions of Muhammad (peace be upon him) are vague and some how isolated from the context of the entire Bible. The reason for this is because there is also falsehood in the Bible, which would distort the truth.

Thus, the Muslim is not required in any way to prove that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is clearly predicted in the Bible by taking all the verses in the Bible into consideration. This is simply the Muslim position regardless of one likes it or not.

JOUBERAR

In conclusion:

The fact that Mohammed said that Jesus was a prophet is a very strong argument that can be used by Christians in their dialogue with Muslims. Just ask the question, "Is Jesus a prophet?" The answer will be "Mohammed said he was." "Can a true prophet lie? Muslims will answer in the negative.
"Well if Jesus is a true prophet then whatever he said should be heeded. Jesus claimed to be the only way to God. If Jesus is right then Mohammed is wrong. If Jesus is wrong, Mohammed is still wrong, because he said that Jesus was right."

Response

Now you said that whatever Jesus said should be heeded.Now how much Jesus said?

Words of Jessu himself which constitute less than 10% of the NT.

Nobody knows who wrote the Gospels.There is still debate over their authors.

Yes Jesus is a true Prophet in a same way as Muhammad.It is another thing that true teachings of Jesus Christ is lost.

The books [canonical gospels] are not heard of till 150 A.D., that is, till Jesus had been dead nearly a hundred and twenty years. No writer before 150 A.D. makes the slightest mention of them." (Bronson, C. Keeler, A Short History of the Bible)

"The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the use of these Gospels had they existed in his time. He makes more than 300 quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the four Gospels. (The Book Your Church Doesn�t Want You to Read, Tim C. Leedom)

�Each of the four canonical Gospels is religious proclamation in the form of a largely fictional narrative. Christians have never been reluctant to write fiction about Jesus, and we must remember that our four canonical Gospels are only the cream of a large and varied literature� (Rendal Helms, Gospel Fictions p.11)

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 09 June 2010 at 3:31pm

Just wondering which of these quotes came first, the Bible or the Qur'an? I think the better question is what parts of the Qur'an agree with the Bible?

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 June 2010 at 10:14pm

Larry wrote:

Hasan, To belive that the Holy Bible contains contradictions is correct, any work done by the hand of man, even under Divine guidance, is subject to error and contradiction. The Holy Qur'an itself (I read it in it's entirety also) contains contradictory elements when dealing with the treatment of "Peoples of the Book", the role of the Jews and their relationship with God as His chosen people, etc. Does this make the Holy Qur'an valueless? Of course not, but anyone saying that every word and thought in the Qur'an is without ANY error or contradiction is deceiving themself. The thing I noticed about the Holy Qur'an is that it is very different from the Holy Bible in style and form, but the overall picture is that the Holy Bible and the Holy Qur'an are in substantial agreement on most subjects and topics. Both books are worthy and deserving of respect from any believer in God, especially the spiritual descendents of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Ishmael.

Larry,
I am talking about major issues, like God, Jesus, and Salvation. Upon careful study, Christians and their source, the Bible disagree or contradicts with all those three issues. And that is being truthful, not disrespectful.
In the Quran those three fundamental issues do not contradict.
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 11 June 2010 at 3:09pm

   You are talking about "God, Jesus and Salvation" as being contradictory in the Bible. There is only one God, the Father.
   When Jesus was 12 years old He and His parents went to Jerusalem for the Passover. On the way home Mary and Joseph could not find Jesus among the group and went back to Jerusalem to find Him. "After three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers." When His mother, Mary, asked Him "Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously. And He said to them 'Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business'?" Jesus prayed to His Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, shortly before his capture and execution, saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours be done."
   The whole point of Jesus's terrible death was to be the sacrifice that would give sinners, who could not earn Salvation on their own, attain salvation through belief in Him as the Son of God. His resurrection after being dead for three days is the miracle that binds all Christians together, for without His sacrifice Christianity would not exist.
   When John the Baptist baptized Jesus in the river Jordan, "...Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, In whom I am well pleased."
   This is the Trinity that Christians worship, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are one and the same substance, not three separate "gods". When Jesus was born one of the names that He was given was Emmanuel, meaning literally, "God with us." And, His birth, life and death had been Prophesied 700 years before his birth, by the Prophet Isaiah in the 53rd Chapter of Isaiah in the Old Testament. Isaiah speaks of his painful death but adds that "by His stripes (literally, blows that cut in) we are healed." Every single prophecy of Isaiah concerning the life and death of Jesus Christ was fulfilled by Jesus, even the manner of his death "with the wicked" and "with the rich" at His burial in the tomb of a rich man (Joseph of Arimathea).
   The Trinity is hard for many non-Christians to understand, but it in no way represents three separate 'gods'. But everyone has their own religious beliefs and if it fulfills their faith then it is right for them. But I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and will judge the world at the end of days as written of in the 'Revelation of Jesus Christ', the last book of the New Testament.
   Peace!

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 12 June 2010 at 7:04am

Mansoor It seems to me you are realy :ignorant" either you don't know who the "holy spirit" is, or you don't want to know who the "holy spirit" is, simply because of your tradisional back ground and your islamic education you don't want to "know better' and that is complete arrogance.

Was it God who change the bible and now all of a sudden God also changed I don't care who changed the bible, but the Quran is completly false Muhammad and his compannions made up thier own "r�sum�" which cotradict the bible in every the way. The nearest that Quan have EVER came to bible is when you put a bible next to the Quran The Quran is plagiarized with apocryphal Scriptures and pre - islamic Arabic poetry excerpts.

The Quran was never and will never be God's word or a god's word not even and idol's word it was Muhammad who made himself a god because it was his own words and his companion's "words' so listen to what I have to say to you, that "one day" you will stand before "God" and so that you can gave whitness to him that" I" have told you that "Muhammad's Quran" is not and was not from God, and so that you can't denie this before God that nobody gave you that information that isalm was a false way to worship some sort of a god and lay claim that it was the "REAL GOD", "so mark my words", so that you can not turn back and say that I have not "told" you THAT islam was false.

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 12 June 2010 at 8:58pm

Larry wrote:

   You are talking about "God, Jesus and Salvation" as being contradictory in the Bible. There is only one God, the Father.
   When Jesus was 12 years old He and His parents went to Jerusalem for the Passover. On the way home Mary and Joseph could not find Jesus among the group and went back to Jerusalem to find Him. "After three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers." When His mother, Mary, asked Him "Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously. And He said to them 'Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business'?" Jesus prayed to His Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, shortly before his capture and execution, saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours be done."
   The whole point of Jesus's terrible death was to be the sacrifice that would give sinners, who could not earn Salvation on their own, attain salvation through belief in Him as the Son of God. His resurrection after being dead for three days is the miracle that binds all Christians together, for without His sacrifice Christianity would not exist.
   When John the Baptist baptized Jesus in the river Jordan, "...Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, In whom I am well pleased."
   This is the Trinity that Christians worship, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are one and the same substance, not three separate "gods". When Jesus was born one of the names that He was given was Emmanuel, meaning literally, "God with us." And, His birth, life and death had been Prophesied 700 years before his birth, by the Prophet Isaiah in the 53rd Chapter of Isaiah in the Old Testament. Isaiah speaks of his painful death but adds that "by His stripes (literally, blows that cut in) we are healed." Every single prophecy of Isaiah concerning the life and death of Jesus Christ was fulfilled by Jesus, even the manner of his death "with the wicked" and "with the rich" at His burial in the tomb of a rich man (Joseph of Arimathea).
   The Trinity is hard for many non-Christians to understand, but it in no way represents three separate 'gods'. But everyone has their own religious beliefs and if it fulfills their faith then it is right for them. But I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and will judge the world at the end of days as written of in the 'Revelation of Jesus Christ', the last book of the New Testament.
   Peace!

Nice try with scripted spam so what else is new? Can't you look inward and ask why are you selling the bill of goods that no one will buy'm here!

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 13 June 2010 at 9:57am

The Gospel of John identifies the Comforter (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit. The word comforter in the Old Testament can refer to human beings or angels distinctively:

So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter. (Ecclesiastes 4:1, LXX)

The Comforter is a helper, and hence the Prophets were comforters sent by God:

The Paraclete is a parallel figure to Jesus himself; and this conclusion is confirmed by the fact that the title is suitable for both. It is clear from 14:16 that the source thought there were sendings of two Paracletes, Jesus and his successor, the one following the other. (Rudolf Bultmann, Gospel of John, A Commentary, p. 567)

According to the rules of logic therefore, one is brought to see in John's Paraclete a human being like Jesus, possessing the faculties of hearing and speech formally implied in John's Greek text. Jesus therefore predicts that God will later send a human being to Earth to take up the role defined by John, i.e. to be a prophet who hears God's word and repeats his message to man. This is the logical interpretation of John's texts arrived at if one attributes to the words their proper meaning. (Maurice Bucaille, The Bible, The Quran, and Science)

JOUBERAR

Was it God who change the bible and now all of a sudden God also changed I don't care who changed the bible,

Response

No it was not God who changed it but people.Still today Bible have grave mistakes even i can show you.And there is no logical reply to those mistakes.

Visit : http://www.bartdehrman.com/books/misquoting_jesus.htm - Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind
Who Changed the Bible and Why" By Dr.Bart Ehrman

JOUBERAR

but the Quran is completly false Muhammad and his compannions made up thier own "r�sum�" which cotradict the bible in every the way. The nearest that Quan have EVER came to bible is when you put a bible next to the Quran The Quran is plagiarized with apocryphal Scriptures and pre - islamic Arabic poetry excerpts.

Response

There are some similarities between Quran and Bible(and i have shown you but you didnot reply) and ofcourse they are contradict with each other.

But Quran is not plagiarizrd from any other source.

JOUBERAR

Response
And on that day Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) will witness against you.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 13 June 2010 at 11:58am

JOUBERAR

Mansoor It seems to me you are realy :ignorant" either you don't know who the "holy spirit" is, or you don't want to know who the "holy spirit" is, simply because of your tradisional back ground and your islamic education you don't want to "know better' and that is complete arrogance.

Response

Not only Muhammad is mentioned in Gospel of John but he is also mentioned in Book of Isaiah 21:7.Let me quote the verse:

Isaiah 21:7 And he saw a chariot with two horsemen, a rider upon an ass, and a rider upon a camel: and he beheld them diligently with much heed.( http://www.tldm.org/bible/Old%20Testament/isaias.htm - Douay-Rheimis Bible )

Some Christians (not all) cite Isaiah 21:7 as an example of a prophecy concerning Jesus. Jesus is said to have rode into Jerusalem on a donkey as mentioned in John 12:14 and elsewhere in the other gospels.

Tying that with Isaiah 21:7 which mentions a rider on an ass(donkey) they propose that Isaiah saw Jesus riding on a donkey into Jerusalem.

But what about the other part of the verse that mentions a rider on a camel? The gospels do not mention at all Jesus riding on a camel into any city.

Thus if the rider of the ass was indeed Jesus a.s. then who was the rider of the camel?

Just as Jesus was riding an ass as a prophet and messenger of God so was Muhammad riding on a camel as a prophet and messenger of God.

In fact, the parallel between the two is unmistakable. While Jesus a.s. as a massenger rode into a city (Jerusalem), Muhammad s.a.w. rode into a city (Yathrib or Medinah as it was later renamed). Just as Jesus was welcomed by a sizeable group of believers with shouts and singing of joy saying Hosanna, Hosanna as he arrived at the city so too was Muhammad s.a.w. greeted with shouts and singing of joy by a sizeable group of believers as he arrived at the city.

Professor Emeritus of history Jaroslav Pelikan of Yale University writes in his bestseller and very well received Whose Bible is it?,

�Later in the Book of Isaiah, the Septuagint�s �And I saw two mounted horsemen, and a rider on an ass, and a rider on a camel� became an embarrasement to Christian apologists but a welcome support to Muslim disputants, because it seemed to be prophesying not only that Jesus would enter into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday riding on a donkey, as the Christian Gospel described his doing in the New Testament, but that he would be followed (almost exactly six centuries later) by the prophet Muhammad, who was a camel driver.�(Jaroslav Pelikan. Whose Bible Is It? (2006). United States: Penguin Books. p. 59)

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 13 June 2010 at 4:17pm

Let me get this straight. You mention the "rider on a donkey and a rider on a camel" from the Book of Isaiah. By this you believe that the rider on a donkey was Jesus and the rider on a camel is Muhammad. So, did Muhammad go 1200 years back to Isaiah's time to ride alongside Jesus or 600 years back to the time of Jesus? Even to assume that the "rider on a camel" refers specifically to Muhammad is bizarre to say the least. And why, if Muhammad did ride the camel along with Jesus why isn't it mentioned in the Qur'an? It also surprises me that so many Muslims claim the Bible is corrupt but quote from it liberally when it suits their purpose.

Posted By: I♥Jesus
Date Posted: 13 June 2010 at 10:46pm

Isaiah 21 is an oracle against the nation of Babylon. It does not refer to Jesus.

The Paraclete or The Comforter is an alternate name for the Holy Spirit. It has the article and is capitalized. Ecclesiastes is written in Hebrew and not the same word at all Just a translation issue. A comforter is not a prophet; prophets were typically most uncomfortable.

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If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. 5:48

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 14 June 2010 at 1:06pm

Larry

Let me get this straight. You mention the "rider on a donkey and a rider on a camel" from the Book of Isaiah. By this you believe that the rider on a donkey was Jesus and the rider on a camel is Muhammad. So, did Muhammad go 1200 years back to Isaiah's time to ride alongside Jesus or 600 years back to the time of Jesus? Even to assume that the "rider on a camel" refers specifically to Muhammad is bizarre to say the least.

Response

Isaiah saw a vision of two riders. Who was the rider upon the ass? Every Sunday school student will tell us that this was a prophecy of Jesus (peace be upon him), as stated in John:"And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written," (John 12:14)

but who is the promised prophet who would ride the camel? If it is not Muhammad (peace be upon him) then this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

Larry

And why, if Muhammad did ride the camel along with Jesus why isn't it mentioned in the Qur'an?

Response

Quran clearly says that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible but it is not an important that Quran specifically describes in this manner.

Larry

It also surprises me that so many Muslims claim the Bible is corrupt but quote from it liberally when it suits their purpose.

Response

Muslims never claim that whole Bible is corrupt.

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 14 June 2010 at 2:54pm

"Qur'an clearly states that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible but it is not an important that Qur'an specifically describes in this manner."
Isaiah chapter 53 specifically refers to the future coming of Jesus, listing many of the details of His actual life and death. But I have seen nothing that refers in such a way to Muhammad. Did Isaiah say that the two riders would be serparated in time by 1,300 years? Just because someone is riding a camel, hardly a novelty in the Middle East, how does this mean that it is Muhammad? Why does Isaiah prophesy the coming of Jesus in 700 years with such specific prophecies of his life and crucifixion yet leave the identity of the "rider on a camel" as such a mystery? Is there any specific mention in Isaiah or the Bible that talks about specific things that happened during the life and death of Muhammad in Mecca or Medina. And if not, why assume that it refers to Muhammad?

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 15 June 2010 at 6:59am

Larry

Isaiah chapter 53 specifically refers to the future coming of Jesus, listing many of the details of His actual life and death.

Response

Death is not mentioned.

Larry

But I have seen nothing that refers in such a way to Muhammad. Did Isaiah say that the two riders would be serparated in time by 1,300 years?

Response

Yes it was a vision of Isaiah.

Larry

Just because someone is riding a camel, hardly a novelty in the Middle East, how does this mean that it is Muhammad?

Response

How does?Just as Jesus was riding an ass as a prophet and messenger of God so was Muhammad riding on a camel as a prophet and messenger of God.

In fact, the parallel between the two is unmistakable. While Jesus a.s. as a massenger rode into a city (Jerusalem), Muhammad s.a.w. rode into a city (Yathrib or Medinah as it was later renamed).

Just as Jesus was welcomed by a sizeable group of believers with shouts and singing of joy saying Hosanna, Hosanna as he arrived at the city so too was Muhammad s.a.w. greeted with shouts and singing of joy by a sizeable group of believers as he arrived at the city.

We read about this momentous incident in the life of the Prophet Muhammad in Martin Lings classic work on Muhammad�s s.a.w. biography,

�After the prayer the Prophet mounted Qaswa (his camel), and Abu Bakr and others of Quraysh also mounted their camels and set off with him for the city. .. Never was a day of great rejoicing. �Come is the Prophet of God! Come is the Prophet of God!� was the joyous cry that went up from more and more voices of men and women and children who had lined the route.� (Source:Martin Lings. Muhammad his life based on the earliest sources(2005). Lahore, Pakistan: Suhail Academy. p. 123)

It is also worth noting the following authentic Hadiths show us that Muhammad rode camels:

Sahih Bukhari, Book 3, Number 67:
�Narrated �Abdur Rahman bin Abi Bakra�s father: Once the Prophet was riding his camel and a man was holding its rein�.�

Sahiih Bukhari, Book 26, Number 681:
�Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet performed Tawaf of the Ka�ba while riding a camel, and whenever he came in front of the Corner, he pointed towards it (with something).�

Sahiih Bukhari, Book 26, Number 701:
�Narrated Ibn Abbas: I gave Zam-zam water to Allah�s Apostle and he drank it while standing. �Asia (a sub-narrator) said that �Ikrima took the oath that on that day the Prophet had not been standing but riding a camel.�

Question:If Isaiah is not talking about Muhammad then whom he is talking about?Definitely he is not talking about Jesus Christ.No where Bible says that Jesus rode camel.Otherwise Prophecy is still unfulfilled.Now do you believe that Bible contains unfulfilled prophecy?

Larry

Why does Isaiah prophesy the coming of Jesus in 700 years with such specific prophecies of his life and crucifixion yet leave the identity of the "rider on a camel" as such a mystery?

Response

First of all crucifixion is not mentioned in Book of Isaiah.Further i donot see any mystery.

Larry

Is there any specific mention in Isaiah or the Bible that talks about specific things that happened during the life and death of Muhammad in Mecca or Medina. And if not, why assume that it refers to Muhammad?

Response

Isaiah in the Bible foretold the story of "Al-alak" in the Noble Quran which happened to Muhammad and never happened to any other Prophet. It is the story where the Angel Gabriel repeatedly commands the Prophet to read, and the Prophet (i.e. Muhammad) repeatedly replies "I can't read".

Here you can read the entire article: http://www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_vision.htm - In the Book of Isaiah: Isaiah in the Bible foretold the story of "Al-alak" that is in the Noble Quran about Muhammad.

Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 15 June 2010 at 9:19am

Greetings�.

If your heart is sincere perhaps this will help you because if God failed to keep and preserve his word then we�re all in trouble.

God�s Word does NOT contradict; people lack spiritual insight and comprehension into his words whether they are Christian, Jews or Muslims scholars. Scholars don�t speak for God and if religion has been indoctrinated by man or if some men have an agenda what in the world does that have to do with God�s Word being corrupted or a contradictory? If people don�t know by now that there are wicked forces at work to destroy God�s message then shame on them.

In the beginning of the Qur�an haven�t you read: �[The righteous] trust what has been revealed to you [Mohammed] and to others before you, and firmly believe in the life to come.��Sura 2, Al-Baqara [the Cow], verse 4.

*** �If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.� (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94)

What do you think is meant by �what has been revealed . . . to others before you�? Three separate writings are mentioned in the Qur�an. One is alluded to in the fifth Sura, Al-Ma�ida [The Table], in verses 43 and 44. (Sura 17, Al-Isra� [The Night Journey], verse 55) (Sura 4, Al-Nisa� [Women], verse 163)

The Qur�an also reads: �After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah�s revelations.��Sura 5, Al-Ma�ida [The Table], verses 46, 47

Here�s more . . . �Children of Israel . . . Have faith in My revelations, which confirm your Scriptures.� (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 41)

�A Book confirming their own has come to them from Allah.� (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 89)

�When it is said to them: �Believe in what Allah has revealed,� they reply: �We believe in what was revealed to us.� But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is the truth, corroborating their own scriptures.� (Sura 2, Al-Baqara [The Cow], verse 91)

�He has revealed to you the Book with the truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of men, and the distinction between right and wrong.� (Sura 3, Al-Imran [The Imrans], verses 3, 4)

�This is a blessed Book which We have revealed, confirming what came before it.� (Sura 6, Al-An‛am [Cattle], verse 92)

�What We have revealed to you in the Book is the truth confirming previous scriptures.��Sura 35, Al-Fatir [The Creator], verse 31.

To sum this up, the Qur�an teaches that these three writings, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel, are from God.

If, at the time the Qur'an were written, and the Holy Word had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel �judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein�?

Believers in the Qur�an accept that the Holy Word was uncorrupted at the time the Qur�an was written (about one thousand three hundred years ago)

In the one hundred fourteen Suras, or chapters, of the Qur�an, at least sixty-two verses point out that these three writings come from God. And at least twelve other verses say that the Qur�an was written for the purpose of confirming these books.

But, If you or anyone else believe otherwise despite what your Quran says, then you too have been duke into believing one of the biggest lies in history. The other two being �God is dead� and �There is no Devil�

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�If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.� (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al �Imran: 84-85)

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 15 June 2010 at 3:49pm

   Your responses were absurd from the start.
   "Just as Jesus was riding an ass as a prophet and messenger of God so was Muhammad riding on a camel as a prophet and messenger of God." And then you state that "In fact the paralell between the two is unmistakable. While Jesus a.s. as a messenger rode into a city (Jerusalem), Muhammad s.a.w. rode into a city (Yathrib or Medinah as it was later renamed."
   Is this what passes as the "proof" that Muhammad was the "rider on a camel"? Why not say that Jesus ate food and Muhammad ate food too. Or Jesus walked on his two feet and Muhammad also walked on his two feet.
   Trying to find paralell examples between Jesus and Muhammad, by using similar acts between the two, is patently ridiculous. Is this the kind of "proof" that Muslims use to portray Muhammad as the greatest of all the prophets?

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 15 June 2010 at 4:21pm

   You say that "death is not mentioned" in Isaiah. But Isaiah Chapter 53 clearly states that:

   1. Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

   2. For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him.

   3. He is despised and rejected by men. A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him. He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

   4. Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.

   5. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.

   6. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

   7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before it's shearers is silent. So He opened not His mouth.

   8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

   9. And they made His grave with the wicked, But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

   10. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.

   11. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By his knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

   12. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death. And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 June 2010 at 9:00pm

Larry,
these three issues are the key, rest are just time wasting and excuses for looking away from the truth. Christians (most) say that God is One, then continue to say, that God is three in One. God the father, God the holy ghost, God the son (Jesus).
For me that is a contradiction. Those who are other than God, or under God's command are not God, nor equal to God. Holy Ghost and Jesus are not equal to God as shown even in the Bible. Yet Christians say they are same as God.
Jesus is taken as God by Christians. To the contrary, the Bible and our intellect tells us that he was a man, God's creation, God's servant, certainly not God.
Salvation, I am told by Christians that Jesus has paid for their sins with his blood sacrifice. To the contrary, I see that in the Bible Jesus is quoted to have said that every sin that man commits he will give its accounts on the Judgment day. He also is quoted to have said that if your hand commits a sin, cut it off from your body so because of it your whole body will not be thrown into the fire. Also in the same Bible I read that each one will pay for their won sin, father will not pay for his son, nor son will pay for his father's sin. Yet there are some contradictory statements in the Bible as well like, " that the sacrifice of Jesus is for our sins, not just ours (those who follow him) but for the whole world" Another one is where it say that God will punish several generation for some sins!
So the contradiction on these main three issues is more powerful and important than on anything else.
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 16 June 2010 at 1:15am

Hasan,
   "Christians (most) say that God is One, then continue to say that God is three in one." "Those who are other than God, or under God's command are not God nor equal to God. Holy Ghost and Jesus are not God as shown even in the Bible. Yet Christians say that they are the same as God."
   You say "those other than God, or under God's command" but Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not other than God they are God, not separate deities "under God's command." Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one substance, they are God.
   "Jesus is taken as God by Christians. To the contrary, the Bible and our intellect tells us that he was a man, God's creation, God's servant, certainly not God."
   How does human intellect define what the essence of God is, can humans know the mind and nature of God Himself? If Jesus Christ was just a "man" then why does the Qur'an state that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and told her that she was going to be given the "gift of a Holy Son?" I'm not sure how a "Holy Son" refers to a mere human being.
   The sacrifice of Jesus Christ was for the purpose of making salvation possible by all humans. John 3:16 states that; "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
   You have a habit of taking different Bible chapters and verses out of context and simply putting them together in one group to show that the Bible is totally contradictory. There will never be agreement between Muslims and Christians on the nature and substance of God because Christians see Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Muslims and Jews don't believe that the Messiah has come yet. In fact, Muslim authorities centuries ago sealed up the "Golden Gate" into the city of Jerusalem because according to Jewish belief their Messiah will enter Jerusalem by this particular gate.
   To Christians, the Holy Trinity is simply one substance, it is God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. As I have said before, in the Bible Jesus was also given the name Emmanuel which literally means "God with us." The rest is simply a matter of faith for each person. Muslims will still believe that the idea of God having a Son is "monstrous", while Christians will continue to believe that Jesus Christ is God. The best that we can do as people of faith is to honor and respect the beliefs of others, even if we do not agree with them. We, Christians, Jews and Muslims are all descendants of Abraham and we all believe in the same God, though we might have different opinions of what the true nature of God is. It is a matter of faith and personal conviction. Peace to you.
Larry

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 17 June 2010 at 6:31am

Larry

Your responses were absurd from the start.
   "Just as Jesus was riding an ass as a prophet and messenger of God so was Muhammad riding on a camel as a prophet and messenger of God." And then you state that "In fact the paralell between the two is unmistakable. While Jesus a.s. as a messenger rode into a city (Jerusalem), Muhammad s.a.w. rode into a city (Yathrib or Medinah as it was later renamed."
   Is this what passes as the "proof" that Muhammad was the "rider on a camel"? Why not say that Jesus ate food and Muhammad ate food too. Or Jesus walked on his two feet and Muhammad also walked on his two feet.
   Trying to find paralell examples between Jesus and Muhammad, by using similar acts between the two, is patently ridiculous. Is this the kind of "proof" that Muslims use to portray Muhammad as the greatest of all the prophets?

Response

Prophet Isaiah peace be upon him prophesied that two leaders whom he called "Chariot" would come -- one riding a donkey, and another riding a camel: "And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (King James Version Bible, Isaiah 21:7)" Who are the "couple of horsemen"? They are Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them. Let us see the proof Jesus fulfilled the riding of the donkey prophecy: "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, (John 12:14)" The quote "as it is written" is referring to Isaiah 21:7. It is important to know that no where in the New Testament do we see Jesus riding any camel. No where in the New Testament do we see any fulfillment of any kind about the prophecy of riding the camel. When we look at Muhammad peace be upon him, he rode the camel several times in his life time. The most popular event of him riding the camel is when he migrated from Mecca to Medina to escape the torture of the pagans. Not only that, but when the Muslims in Medina wanted to build the first Islamic Mosque and the Prophet's humble Home next to it, they had conflicts among each others about the location, because each group/tribe wanted the location to be as near to them as possible. So, to avoid the conflict of "favoritism", the Prophet peace be upon him ordered for his camel to decide the location by letting it walk and settle in the place that it naturally chooses. This wisdom from Prophet Muhammad which relied solely on his camel solved the problem. Now, my open challenge to you is as follows: Where in the Bible do we see the riding of the camel Prophecy being fulfilled? Who in the Bible was the Prophet that rode the camel to fulfill the Prophecy of Isaiah 21:7? The New Testament only fulfills the riding of the donkey prophecy in John 12:14, and it claims that it only fulfilled that prophecy. There is still a missing fulfillment of the riding of the camel in the New Testament. Why? If Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him wasn't the one who fulfilled the remaining of Isaiah 21:7 prophecy, then who was that Prophet?

Larry

You say that "death is not mentioned" in Isaiah. But Isaiah Chapter 53 clearly states that:

   1. Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

   2. For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him.

   3. He is despised and rejected by men. A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him. He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

   4. Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.

   5. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.

   6. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

   7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before it's shearers is silent. So He opened not His mouth.

   8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

   9. And they made His grave with the wicked, But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

   10. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.

   11. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By his knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

   12. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death. And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

Response

You ignore the historical background of Isaiah 53 to claim that Jesus� death and resurrection was prophesied, yet Ezekiel and Jeremiah link Isaiah 53 to Israel, the Prophetic books of Hosea and Nahum also link Isaiah 53 to Israel using descriptive parallels. God promises to return the Israelites to Jerusalem and restore the Temple after the Babylon Captivity (536 B.C.E). Hence, the context of Isaiah 53 refers to the suffering and restoration of Israel, absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

Here is response by Jewish sources to Isaiah 53:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/faq-primary-211/suffering-servant-primary-373/123-is-it-true-that-jews-interpreted-isaiah-53-as-referring-to-the-messiah-before-rashi - Is it true that Jews interpreted Isaiah 53 as referring to the Messiah before Rashi?

http://www.jewishpassion.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7:isaiah-53&catid=1:introductory - ISAIAH 53

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/faq-primary-211/suffering-servant-primary-373/134-does-qhumbled-himself-and-opened-not-his-mouthq-describe-jesus - Does "humbled himself and opened not his mouth" describe Jesus?

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/faq-primary-211/suffering-servant-primary-373/135-was-jesus-qstricken-by-his-enemiesq - Was Jesus "stricken by his enemies"?

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 17 June 2010 at 7:01am

Shibboleth

If, at the time the Qur'an were written, and the Holy Word had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel �judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein�?

Response

Surah 5:47

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

Imam Al Qurtubi has it in his commentary...

�� , �� , �� : �� ; ��

The people of the Gospel ruled by the Gospel at that particular time (meaning the time it was revealed to Jesus), as for now it is abrogated and it is said that this is an order for the Christians of this time to have faith in Muhammad (peace be upon him) because according to the Gospel it is compulsory for them to do so. (Abu 'Abdullah al-Qurtubi, Tasfir al Jami' li-ahkam al-Qur'an, Commentary on Surah 5:43, http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KORTOBY&nType=1&nSora=5&nAya=47 - Source )

Focus on what the second part of the verse says...

Surah 5:47

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

Regarding the second part of the verse, Imam Al Qurtubi says...

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And whoever does not rule by what Allah has revealed from the Qur'an, and abandons the saying of the Messenger (peace be upon him) then he is a disbeliever. Ibn Abbas and Mujahid said that this verse is general and applies to everyone. Ibn Mas'ud and Al Hassan said: "It is general to all those who don't rule by what Allah has revealed from amongst the Muslims, Jews and disbelievers." (Ibid.)

This verse refers to the Gospel, which is not distorted and altered. Allah is referring in these verses to the commands He stated in the original Gospel so that all the verses are about the unchanged or unaltered commands of Allah in the Gospel.

Allah commands the Christians to judge by the revealed Book, not by the New Testament which is a collection of books written by a wide variety of authors. In this case, Christians are unable to judge by these Books except through the Holy Qur'an and acceptance of Prophet Muhammad's message. This is the only possible way to judge by the Gospel because the Qur'an was sent down affirming its original message and is a protector over it. This is emphasized in verse 48...

Surah 5:48

And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

Ibn Kathir quotes well known Qur'anic commentator Ibn Jarir Al Tabari as saying...

Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14016 -
Imam al-Tabari relates from the eminent Jurist Ibn Juraij (80-150 AH/699-767 CE) that if the people of the book quote something from their Bible that disagrees with the Qur'an then we reject it but if it agrees with the Qur'an then we accept it. (Source) Imam al-Bahgawi also quotes the opinion of Ibn Juraij in his commentary. (Tafsir Al Baghawi, 1/65)

The Qur'an is the protector of the Gospel and Torah. But which Gospel and Torah? It is the original revelations sent to Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them) both and whatever of it survives today (e.g. prophecies of Muhammad peace be upon him to come) in the scriptures of the Christians and Jews today.

So, what is meant here by the Gospel is the original revealed Book before it got corrupted and altered. And there is no way to judge by it except by conferring the Qur'an which is a protector over it; for it bears witness to what Allah has revealed in it and exposes what people falsely entered into and removed from it.

Other commentators have stated that if the Christians judge by the Gospel then they are in a way accepting the Prophecies of Muhammad peace be upon him in the Gospel, which in turn leads them to accepting Islam.

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 17 June 2010 at 12:58pm

   It seems strange to me that Muhammad would actually be the one person who was "riding the camel" in the prophecy. You say that Muhammad rode a camel "several times" in his life, making the identity of the camel rider even more obscure. Why, out of the tens of thousands of people who rode camels in those times should the identity of the camel rider be that of a man who only rode a camel "several times". I don't know whether the prophecy of who was riding the camel was fulfilled, but you simply state that it was Muhammad. It is up to you to show that with a convincing argument that it was no one but Muhammad. I certainly see nothing to convince me that Muhammad was the person spoken of by Isaiah 1,300 years ago but there is specific details to believe that it was in fact Jesus Christ who rode the donkey, as he did when he entered Jerusalem with his followers.
   Your challenge is backwards, it is not me who needs to show whether the "camel rider" prophecy came true or not. It is you who needs to convince anyone that Muhammad, and no other person, was the rider of the camel. As I have said before, camel riding is a very common, daily activity in the Midlle East during all the time periods in question. How does that narrow the list of possible camel riders to one person, Muhammad?
   It would be strange to me that Isaiah would prophesy that two people at one time, the riders of the donkey and camel, were persons who lived 700 years apart.

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 17 June 2010 at 1:21pm

I read your link to the Jewish article that claims that Isaiah 53 refers to the nation of Israel and not the Messiah. Well, what do you expect? How many Jews are going to believe that it refers to Jesus Christ as the Messiah? The rest of your reply is simply absurd. Chapter 53 of Isaiah is clearly speaking of a PERSON not a NATION. But this just goes to show how people twist and turn a prophecy to suit there own ends with absolutely no proof of what they are saying. Please cite the verses in Ezekiel and Jeremiah, Hoseas and Nahum that support your contention, since you used them as a backup to what you are claiming. Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled in it's entirety by Jesus Christ, every line accurately describes what He endured for the sake of all. Even the line "And they made His grave with the wicked, But with the rich at His death" describes His being crucified between two criminals but He was buried in the new tomb of a rich man, Joseph of Arimathea.

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 17 June 2010 at 1:26pm

I also think that it is odd that you are using the source "Jews for Judaism" to make your contentions that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, was not the person referred to by Isaiah's prophecy. The person referred to in Isaiah Chapter 53 can be NO other person but Jesus Christ.

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 17 June 2010 at 1:45pm

   "Allah commands the Christians to judge by the revealed Book, not by the New Testament which is a collection of Books written by a wide variety of authors. In this case, Christians are unable to judge by these Books except through the Holy Qur'an and acceptance of Prophet Muhammad's message."
   Christians DO judge by the revealed Book, the New Testament of Jesus Christ. Which, by the way, is centuries older than the Qur'an and Islam. I do not consider the Holy Qur'an to be the final revealed Word of God and I do not accept Muhammad as being the "Seal of the Prophets." Muhammad used large sections of both the Old and New Testaments when he was forming the religion of Islam, including the Jewish Prophets and Patriarchs and the Christian's central personages including Jesus and His mother Mary among many others. This is easily ascertained by anyone comparing the Bible to the Qur'an.
   It is always fascinating to me that the Muslims, while commandeering the basic structure and personages of the Jewish and Christian faiths, now act like they hold the "real truths" that actually sprang from the Bible and use them against the Jews and Christians as, at best, the People of the Book and, at worst, infidels.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 June 2010 at 9:27pm

Larry wrote:

Hasan,
   "Christians (most) say that God is One, then continue to say that God is three in one." "Those who are other than God, or under God's command are not God nor equal to God. Holy Ghost and Jesus are not God as shown even in the Bible. Yet Christians say that they are the same as God."
   You say "those other than God, or under God's command" but Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not other than God they are God, not separate deities "under God's command." Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one substance, they are God.
   "Jesus is taken as God by Christians. To the contrary, the Bible and our intellect tells us that he was a man, God's creation, God's servant, certainly not God."
   How does human intellect define what the essence of God is, can humans know the mind and nature of God Himself? If Jesus Christ was just a "man" then why does the Qur'an state that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and told her that she was going to be given the "gift of a Holy Son?" I'm not sure how a "Holy Son" refers to a mere human being.
   The sacrifice of Jesus Christ was for the purpose of making salvation possible by all humans. John 3:16 states that; "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
   You have a habit of taking different Bible chapters and verses out of context and simply putting them together in one group to show that the Bible is totally contradictory. There will never be agreement between Muslims and Christians on the nature and substance of God because Christians see Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Muslims and Jews don't believe that the Messiah has come yet. In fact, Muslim authorities centuries ago sealed up the "Golden Gate" into the city of Jerusalem because according to Jewish belief their Messiah will enter Jerusalem by this particular gate.
   To Christians, the Holy Trinity is simply one substance, it is God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. As I have said before, in the Bible Jesus was also given the name Emmanuel which literally means "God with us." The rest is simply a matter of faith for each person. Muslims will still believe that the idea of God having a Son is "monstrous", while Christians will continue to believe that Jesus Christ is God. The best that we can do as people of faith is to honor and respect the beliefs of others, even if we do not agree with them. We, Christians, Jews and Muslims are all descendants of Abraham and we all believe in the same God, though we might have different opinions of what the true nature of God is. It is a matter of faith and personal conviction. Peace to you.
Larry

Larry,
I am not trying to convince you I am only bringing out the facts and truth that I see.
It is true that we will never fathom what God really is, though we know who He is. We can never fathom what a fly really is, but we know who the fly is. In the similar fashion I can say, we will never fathom what Jesus really was, but we know who he was.
God= Creator
Fly= Created by the Creator
Jesus= Created by the Creator
For a Muslim, its that simple.
The Creator and the Created are not equal. There is no equation or scholarly review that can change this simple fact.

Word Holy is not exclusive for God, prophets are referred to as holy. Your Bible even refers "ground" as holy too:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+7:33&version=NIV - Acts 7:33
"Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
A mosque is a holy place, and we Muslims still take off our shoes (that go through dirty places during the course of the day) when entering it.

Muslims do believe Jesus (pbuh) was a prophesied Messiah, Jews did not. And remember Messiah is no way means God.

I don't know why you think that being a prophet, or a Messiah is an ordinary thing? When God chooses out of His Mercy someone to lead mankind into the right guidance, that person is no ordinary person. I think you need to try to comprehend that for a while. These (prophets) are the ones who on the day of Judgment will each be witnesses over those who they were sent to as guides. They have certainly higher degree in respect and achievement than even most obedient servants of God, but we must remember, even they cannot and will not become equal to God, nor they ever tried to do so, as they humbled, worshiped and served God. Only Creator is God, alllllllllllllllllllllllll otherssssssssssss are His Creations, simple and clear as that. And God made that clear for all of us through The Final Testament, the Quran, for those who seek the truth. The Quran will be the standard upon which we (those who lived after its revelation till the end of the world) will be judged.

Bring some evidence of what you blame me for when you say I am using out of context quotes? And I will explain them to you my friend.
May God guide those who seek His guidance and His good pleasure.
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 19 June 2010 at 12:16am

Hasan,
The difference between us is that you do not understand the Holy Trinity. I can understand why someone of a different faith would have trouble with it but as Christians we believe it is true. Jusus Christ was born of Mary but not fathered by Joseph. In fact, Joseph wanted to divorce Mary when he found that she was with child but an angel came to him and told him who Jesus really was. There was a purpose behind Jesus and His life and ministry. We Christians believe what the New Testament tells us, that Jesus Christ came to be the ultimate sacrifice that would do away with the old and the temple system as the temple would be pointless after Jesus Chrsit died to make salvation possible for everyone human because we do not deserve or merit salvation through our own human efforts. The apostle Paul wrote that if Christ had not died and been resurrected then our faith was in vain. To us Jesus is not just a prophet but the literal Son of God, and with God the Father and the Holy Spirit make up the Holy Trinity, that is of one substance because there is only one God. Other than that there really isn't anything I can say that will change anyone's mind as to their faith because that's what religion is, a matter of pure faith. I deeply respect Islam and am not trying to convert anyone, just say what my faith is. I also deeply respect Judaism for the reason that as a Christian I am also a Jew, as was Jesus Christ and his mother and father. It is just that Christians believe the Jewish Messiah has already come and the Jews do not. But God made a Holy Covenant between Himself and the Jews and I have no reason to believe that He has forgotten that Covenant. And I believe that Christians are also included in that Covenant after the birth, life and death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ. That is my faith and it sustains me in my daily life. I hope that all is well with you and yours and wish you Peace and the Love of God, whose children we all are.
Larry

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 20 June 2010 at 10:01am

Larry

It seems strange to me that Muhammad would actually be the one person who was "riding the camel" in the prophecy. You say that Muhammad rode a camel "several times" in his life, making the identity of the camel rider even more obscure. Why, out of the tens of thousands of people who rode camels in those times should the identity of the camel rider be that of a man who only rode a camel "several times". I don't know whether the prophecy of who was riding the camel was fulfilled, but you simply state that it was Muhammad. It is up to you to show that with a convincing argument that it was no one but Muhammad. I certainly see nothing to convince me that Muhammad was the person spoken of by Isaiah 1,300 years ago but there is specific details to believe that it was in fact Jesus Christ who rode the donkey, as he did when he entered Jerusalem with his followers.
Your challenge is backwards, it is not me who needs to show whether the "camel rider" prophecy came true or not. It is you who needs to convince anyone that Muhammad, and no other person, was the rider of the camel. As I have said before, camel riding is a very common, daily activity in the Midlle East during all the time periods in question. How does that narrow the list of possible camel riders to one person, Muhammad?
It would be strange to me that Isaiah would prophesy that two people at one time, the riders of the donkey and camel, were persons who lived 700 years apart.

Response

If Prophecy is not applied to Muhammad then who fulfilled the remaining of Isaiah 21:7 prophecy?

That is why Isaiah mentioned further in the same chapter, in 21:13: "The burden upon Arabia." Which means the responsibility of the Arab Muslims, and of course now of all the Muslims, to spread the message of Islam.

Isaiah 21:14: "The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled." Tema is probably Madinah where the prophet Muhammad and his companions fled. Each immigrant was brothered by one inhabitant of Madinah and was given food and shelter.

Isaiah 21:15: "For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of the war." This was when the prophet Muhammad and his companions were persecuted and left Mecca to Madinah.

Isaiah 21:16: "For thus hath the Lord said unto me, within a year according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail." Exactly in the second year of immigration, the pagans were defeated in the first battle in Islam.

Finally Isaiah 21:17 concludes with: "...the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished, for the Lord God of Israel hath spoken it." Kedar is the second son of Ismael, (Genesis 25:13), from whom ultimately Muhammad came. In the beginning, the children of Kedar were attacking Islam and Muhammad. But as many of them accepted Islam, the number of the children of Kedar who resisted Islam was diminished. In some verses in the Bible, Kedar is synonymous with Arab in general, as in Ezekiel 27:21: "Arabia, and all the Princes of Kedar..."

Larry

Response

http://answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/isaiah_53_part_1.htm - Here you can read the entire article on this subject whether it is a nation of Israel or Jesus Christ?This article is written by ex-christian(converted to Islam).

Larry

Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled in it's entirety by Jesus Christ, every line accurately describes what He endured for the sake of all. Even the line "And they made His grave with the wicked, But with the rich at His death" describes His being crucified between two criminals but He was buried in the new tomb of a rich man, Joseph of Arimathea.

Response

There are also two errors in the fulfillment of this Prophecy:

Jesus was never buried ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2027:59-66,%20matthew%2028;&version=9; - Matthew 27:59-66, Matthew 28 )! He was temporarily placed in a tomb and then his body disappeared after that. But he never ONCE was buried under ground as our dead get buried.
Jesus, who was never buried from the first place, was also NEVER BURIED with the wicked and the rich. His tomb was placed in an isolated area as recorded in the gospels.

Again, verse 9 says that he was to be buried with both the wicked and the rich. Jesus was buried alone.

Larry

Response

Why it is odd?After all Jews also read Book of Isaiah.They believe it is word of God.So it is important to know their point of view.

Larry

Christians DO judge by the revealed Book, the New Testament of Jesus Christ. Which, by the way, is centuries older than the Qur'an and Islam.

Response

It is just older but not real word of Christ.

Larry

I do not consider the Holy Qur'an to be the final revealed Word of God and I do not accept Muhammad as being the "Seal of the Prophets." Muhammad used large sections of both the Old and New Testaments when he was forming the religion of Islam, including the Jewish Prophets and Patriarchs and the Christian's central personages including Jesus and His mother Mary among many others. This is easily ascertained by anyone comparing the Bible to the Qur'an.

Response

The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet. The oldest Arabic version of the new Testament was published by Erpenius in 1616 C.E. - about a thousand years after the demise of our Prophet.So your claim makes me laugh.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 20 June 2010 at 2:25pm

Larry

The difference between us is that you do not understand the Holy Trinity. I can understand why someone of a different faith would have trouble with it but as Christians we believe it is true.

Response

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Notice how the Father is being referred to as THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

How is it possible for the Father to be the ONLY true God, while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well? If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the ONLY true God. Similarly, if we say that the Father is the ONLY true God(how clearer can it get for someone to express Unitarianism?) then we can't say that anyone else (i.e. Son and Holy Spirit) is God as well.

Thus, in light of John 17:3 we see that the concept of Trinity is logically incoherent.

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 20 June 2010 at 2:50pm

   In answer to my statements you give me back statements by a Christian who converted to Islam as if I would accept the word of someone just because they were once a Christian.
   I never said anything about Jesus being buried in the ground after he was crucified. He was placed in the new, unused tomb of the rich merchant Joseph of Arimathea and it is from this tomb that He was resurrected three days later.
   "Knowing" the point of view of Jews on Isaiah 53 does not mean that those views are correct, especially when they do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, so why should I credit their viewpoints as anything other than an extension of this core belief?
   You also say that the New Testament is just "older but not real word of Christ." That is your belief based on your faith and it's ideas about the New Testament. Just because you say that it is not the real word of Christ doesn't mean that you're right.
   You say that the Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of the Prophet Muhammad. The Prophet did not like the pagan idols of the Arabians and was drawn to the ideas of monotheism practiced by Christians and Jews that he became acquainted with when meeting with some of these people while they visited Mecca and the Kaaba while travelling or on trading missions. To argue that Muhammad had absolutely no contact or influence by Christians or Jewish sources is absurd.

Posted By: I♥Jesus
Date Posted: 20 June 2010 at 3:52pm

Existing outside of time is logically incoherent. Creating reality is logically incoherent. Muhammad's hegira is logically incoherent, as is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Go back to Kant and Hegel, Mansoor. God is noumena, an unknowable reality. Logical incoherence is a given.

What we call Father, Son & Holy Spirit are phenomena. They are what we perceive of the noumena, but are incomplete concepts. We form a thesis about what God is, and as we perceive God afresh we synthesize that antithesis into our thesis but we never reach logical coherence.

What was the title of al-Ghazzali's great work again? The Coherence of the Philosophers?
I don't think so . . .

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If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. 5:48

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 20 June 2010 at 9:49pm

   You continue to equate God with a regular human being, and having the limitations of being a human. You say "How is it possible for the Father to be the Only True God while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well? If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the Only True God."
   No it isn't, with God all things are possible. And you continue to use human standards to judge the reality of the Holy Trinity. I'm sorry that you can't understand the nature of the Holy Trinity.

Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 21 June 2010 at 3:27pm

Larry wrote:

   You continue to equate God with a regular human being, and having the limitations of being a human. You say "How is it possible for the Father to be the Only True God while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well? If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the Only True God."
   No it isn't, with God all things are possible. And you continue to use human standards to judge the reality of the Holy Trinity. I'm sorry that you can't understand the nature of the Holy Trinity.

Larry, it is not so much that we "can't understand the nature of the Holy Trinity", it is more that the Bible does not do a good job of explaining it nor is it consistent in its approach to the issue. Just by looking at the verse brother Mansoor mentioned (John 17:3), you can see why many people, not just Muslims, have an issue with the trinity. Why does one verse say one thing and another say another thing? Is it possible that the Gospel writers were also struggling with the idea? And why is it that most, if not all, of the verses which mention the trinity have been found to be absent from the earliest manuscripts and only appear in manuscripts centuries later?

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 21 June 2010 at 6:15pm

Mansoor_ali wrote:

JOUBERAR

Mansoor It seems to me you are realy :ignorant" either you don't know who the "holy spirit" is, or you don't want to know who the "holy spirit" is, simply because of your tradisional back ground and your islamic education you don't want to "know better' and that is complete arrogance.

Response

Same thing i can say about you but anyway it is not my way to response.
Here is further response why Paraclete is not Holy Spirit.

The Gospel of John identifies the Comforter (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit. The word comforter in the Old Testament can refer to human beings or angels distinctively:

The Comforter is a helper, and hence the Prophets were comforters sent by God:

According to the rules of logic therefore, one is brought to see in John's Paraclete a human being like Jesus, possessing the faculties of hearing and speech formally implied in John's Greek text. Jesus therefore predicts that God will later send a human being to Earth to take up the role defined by John, i.e. to be a prophet who hears God's word and repeats his message to man. This is the logical interpretation of John's texts arrived at if one attributes to the words their proper meaning. (Maurice Bucaille, The Bible, The Quran, and Science)

JOUBERAR

Was it God who change the bible and now all of a sudden God also changed I don't care who changed the bible,

Response

No it was not God who changed it but people.Still today Bible have grave mistakes even i can show you.And there is no logical reply to those mistakes.

Visit : http://www.bartdehrman.com/books/misquoting_jesus.htm - "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind
Who Changed the Bible and Why" By Dr.Bart Ehrman

JOUBERAR

but the Quran is completly false Muhammad and his compannions made up thier own "r�sum�" which cotradict the bible in every the way. The nearest that Quan have EVER came to bible is when you put a bible next to the Quran The Quran is plagiarized with apocryphal Scriptures and pre - islamic Arabic poetry excerpts.

Response

There are some similarities between Quran and Bible(and i have shown you but you didnot reply) and ofcourse they are contradict with each other.

But Quran is not plagiarizrd from any other source.

JOUBERAR

Response
And on that day Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) will witness against you.

And on that day Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) will witness against you.

Who said that Muhammad please be serious don't make me laugh.

The corruption lies not with the Bible, but rather with the Qur'an, the creation of Arabs in need of a religious text to substantiate their developing monotheistic religion. Large parts of the Qur'an are direct transfers from the Bible. Many more parts of the Qur'an contain stories about personalities from the Bible, but often the stories are incorrect. The Qur'an states that Mary was Aaron's sister, that the great Flood of Noah occurred during the time of Moses, and that Joseph was bought as a slave by an Egyptian named Aziz (instead of Potiphar), to name a few. The evidence seems to point to an early acquaintance with the Christian scriptures during the early years of the Arab Empire, and also to the misunderstanding of much of what they heard and saw in them. The Arabs merely cobbled together their various impressions of what they had heard, and made them a part of the Qur'an.

While the falsity of Muslim claims for the revelation of the Qur'an and its subsequent lack of change have been previously exposed, the Muslim charges concerning the corruption of the Bible ought to be addressed briefly. Islam has yet to produce any textual evidence to demonstrate the corruption of the Biblical texts as a whole. Often, Muslims will try to point to differences in readings between individual manuscripts, and use this to support their assertion. However, the science of textual criticism, as applied to the task of systematically examining the manuscript evidence, provides Christian scholars the ability to distinguish between true and spurious readings in individual manuscripts. The body of evidence, from Greek manuscripts, the manuscripts of other ancient versions (Old Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Latin Vulgate, etc.), and the quotations of early Christian writers allows us to determine the content of the original autographic texts with as yet unassailed certainty. It should be noted that, as was dealt with earlier, Islam cannot truthfully make the same claim, and in fact is logistically unable to even make the attempt because of the artificial standardisation of the Arabic Qur�an text by Uthman, and the subsequent destruction of most all contrary Quranic manuscript evidence. Thus, the Muslim assertion rests entirely on blind faith in what amounts to a tradition handed down through Islam for roughly 1500 years. Facts show, however, that the texts used to produce the Bible are the preserved, uncorrupted words of God.

Here is the answer to your long lasting strugle.

"Who is the Holy Spirit?"

Answer: There are many misconceptions about the identity of the Holy Spirit. Some view the Holy Spirit as a mystical force. Others understand the Holy Spirit as the impersonal power that God makes available to followers of Christ. What does the Bible say about the identity of the Holy Spirit? Simply put, the Bible declares that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also tells us that the Holy Spirit is a divine person, a being with a mind, emotions, and a will.

The fact that the Holy Spirit is God is clearly seen in many Scriptures, including http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%205.3-4 - Acts 5:3-4 . In this verse Peter confronts Ananias as to why he lied to the Holy Spirit and tells him that he had �not lied to men but to God.� It is a clear declaration that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. We can also know that the Holy Spirit is God because He possesses the characteristics of God. For example, His omnipresence is seen in http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Psalm%20139.7-8 - Psalm 139:7-8 , �Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.� Then in http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%202.10-11 - 1 Corinthians 2:10-11 , we see the characteristic of omniscience in the Holy Spirit. �But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man�s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.�

We can know that the Holy Spirit is indeed a divine person because He possesses a mind, emotions, and a will. The Holy Spirit thinks and knows ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%202.10 - 1 Corinthians 2:10 ). The Holy Spirit can be grieved ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Ephesians%204.30 - Ephesians 4:30 ). The Spirit intercedes for us ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Romans%208.26-27 - Romans 8:26-27 ). He makes decisions according to His will ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%2012.7-11 - 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 ). The Holy Spirit is God, the third Person of the Trinity. As God, the Holy Spirit can truly function as the Comforter and Counselor that Jesus promised He would be ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/John%2014.16 - John 14:16 , http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/John%2014.26 - 26 , http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/John%2015.26 - 15:26 ).

The Fact as you can clearly see the holy spirit is God and lying to Holy spirit is lying to God, so keep it in mind if you say God is not thee Holy spirit spirit then you are a liar then you say God is unholy and if you wanna lay claim on something else that can be related to as the holy spirit then you are wrong cos there nothing related to God.

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 21 June 2010 at 11:21pm

   In John 17:20-22 Jesus says;
   "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one."
   You ask;
   And why is it that most, if not all, of the verses that mention the Trinity have been found to be absent from the earliest manuscripts and only appear in manuscripts centuries later?
   I would very much like to know what manuscripts that you are talking about, since you state that most, if not all, are absent any mention of the Trinity? Which are the "earliest" that lack any mention of the Trinity and what manuscripts from "centuries later" are you referring to?

Posted By: I♥Jesus
Date Posted: 22 June 2010 at 5:38am

The poster is undoubtedly thinking of the Johannine comma.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html

There are other undisputed mentions of the Trinity, including a triple theophany in Matthew.

�And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, �This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.��
(Matt 3:16�17 ESV)

-------------
If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. 5:48

Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 22 June 2010 at 12:05pm

Please read this carefully, I truly understand why you would say �the Bible contradicts itself� although the FIRST Muslims believed the Holy Bible (Scriptures) to be true and reliable. That is why they and Muhammad himself appealed to biblical text for verification purposes. However, Christians do not believe that the Quran is the word of God.

I do believe that the Quran is the earliest record we have that details the beliefs and practices of the first Muslims, because the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel teaches something totally otherwise.

But the dilemma for the Muslim is quite apparent and all non-Muslims would agree. To accept the Quran is to accept its testimony that the Holy Bible is the preserved word of God. (Muslims do) And yet to accept the Holy Bible is to reject both the Quran and Muhammad. (Muslims do)

However, Muhammad contradicts the message of God�s true prophets and messengers, especially the testimony of Jesus Christ, God�s beloved Son. It�s quite hilarious that Muslims accept Adam as one of God�s son but not Jesus.

What you don�t realize because of you trying to discredit Judaism and Christianity, as if that proves Islam true, to attack the Bible is to discredit the Quran which confirms the authority, availability and authenticity of the previous scriptures (revelation) Either way, Muslims are in a no win situation.

Here lies your dilemma:

The Quran, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel are all Allah�s word.
The current Torah, Psalms and Gospel are corrupted.
The final word of Allah, the Quran is preserved.

What that tells any reader whose neutral is this:

A. Some of Allah�s Words are corrupted
B. Some of Allah�s Words are preserved

Or I can say:

Some of Allah�s Words are preserved.

The Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are Allah�s Words.
The Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel could be preserved.

Here lies your main problem:

Allah could not protect his previous Revelations. He also gains more power and might throughout time, because he supposedly is now able to protect his last revelation, the Quran.
Allah does not care about people being misled by counterfeit Revelations. And yet he will still punish individuals with hell fire because they allow a corrupted Message even though they may have not come to the realization that Allah had allowed it to be corrupted. That means Allah is unjust.

How in God�s name can we trust that the Quran is preserved if these three Revelations are corrupted? How can a person trust that Allah did not fail to protect his so-called final revelation, the Quran, when he couldn�t prevent people from tampering with his previous Messages?

Muslims, you have to make a decision and choose one of these alternatives:

The Quran is preserved and the earlier Revelations are corrupted. In that case, Allah is either weak or he is unjust. That is the only explanation for his preservation of the Quran and letting people corrupt his previous Revelations.
The Quran is corrupted like the other Revelations. Then you should either not read it since you do not read other corrupted Revelations, or maybe you should read these other corrupted Revelations just as you insist in reading the corrupted Quran.
The Quran is preserved, and the previous Revelations have also been preserved. That means then you should read these authentic revelations (the Bible) for yourself.
The Quran is corrupted but the earlier Revelations are reserved. Obviously, you should then abandon the Quran and read the Bible.

BTW if you picked option number three, then you will be faced with another problem. The Muhammads Quran contradicts these previous Revelations in many essential points. That means that the Quran is a false message which cannot be from God since God is not the author of confusion. He could not reveal a message that contradicts his previous Messages. So, it is Muhammad who have contradicted the Holy Bible and it's message not God.

Is Muhammad greater than Allah?

-------------
�If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.� (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al �Imran: 84-85)

Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 June 2010 at 3:45pm

Larry wrote:

   In John 17:20-22 Jesus says;
   "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one."
   You ask;
   And why is it that most, if not all, of the verses that mention the Trinity have been found to be absent from the earliest manuscripts and only appear in manuscripts centuries later?
   I would very much like to know what manuscripts that you are talking about, since you state that most, if not all, are absent any mention of the Trinity? Which are the "earliest" that lack any mention of the Trinity and what manuscripts from "centuries later" are you referring to?

Certainly, I can show you. Let's start with what scholars agree was the first Gospel to be written, that of Mark. Ironically, the very first verse of Mark 1 ("The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.") has a later addition, according to the NIV:

"Some manuscripts do not have the Son of God."

Now, which manuscripts do not have this all important phrase? The Codex Sinaiticus is one which comes to mind. In addition, it is widely accepted that the resurrection account in Mark was also a later addition.

Another example of verses which mention phrases which may be attributed to the concept of the trinity is 1 John 5:7-8, which IloveJesus referred to. These verses are also not present in the earlier manuscripts.

Add to this the fact that the New Testament seems to swing back and forth between Jesus as a human and Jesus as a god. In one place, Jesus seems like any other man but in other places he suddenly becomes a god, at least according to the authors' versions of the story. It seems to me that the gospel writers were also struggling with the idea. In fact, the term "trinity" did not come about until the 4th century. It is never explicitly mentioned in the New Testament.

-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 June 2010 at 3:59pm

I♥Jesus wrote:

The poster is undoubtedly thinking of the Johannine comma.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html

There are other undisputed mentions of the Trinity, including a triple theophany in Matthew.

�And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, �This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.��
(Matt 3:16�17 ESV)

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 22 June 2010 at 6:27pm

   This is what you call proof of your statements? Of course the Trinity is not mentioned in the New Testament, it is understood and described through the writings of the New Testament. In the many instances where Jesus Christ is named Son of God, the Holy Spirit is described and God the Father and Jesus Christ being one, as I quoted in my earlier reply.
   If that's the best you can do to try and discredit the New Testament you have a long way to go. I am not a Muslim who has no trouble making the most tenuous and speculative "information" to "prove" that the New Testament is corrupted and that the Qur'an is the actual word of God.
   The point that you keep missing through your lack of understanding of the New Testament of Jesus Christ is that there is only ONE GOD and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all of one substance that is God.
   You can argue these points all you want, it is not going to change my thinking or beliefs. You're two-dimensional thinking will not uncover the true essence of God because you have no understanding of His true nature.

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 22 June 2010 at 7:17pm

   Yes, but it makes no mention that the third component, the Holy Spirit, is also a part of this "triple theophany". In fact, it is stated that the "Spirit" simply led Jesus into the desert to fast and be tempted by the Devil. Nor is it stated that "This is my beloved Son...worship Him as part of the 'triune Godhead'" or something to that effect."
   What do you think is being referred to in Matthew as : "...and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove..."?
   The term "Godhead" implies that there is more than one God, which is false.
   John 10:30 "I and My Father are one." John 10:37-38 "If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe in Me. but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
   Really, this tit-for-tat back and forth trying to outdo the other's belief system is pointless in the end. Muslims will continue to believe that the Qur'an is the true word of God and that Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets and Christians will also continue to believe that Jesus Christ was no prophet but the literal Son of God who gave his life so that salvation would be available to all people, who do not deserve salvation based on their own works.
   Everyone has the freedom to follow and practice their own religion, or even lack of one, at least in the United States and the rest of the civilized world.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 June 2010 at 9:43pm

Larry wrote:

Hasan,
The difference between us is that you do not understand the Holy Trinity. I can understand why someone of a different faith would have trouble with it but as Christians we believe it is true. Jusus Christ was born of Mary but not fathered by Joseph. In fact, Joseph wanted to divorce Mary when he found that she was with child but an angel came to him and told him who Jesus really was. There was a purpose behind Jesus and His life and ministry. We Christians believe what the New Testament tells us, that Jesus Christ came to be the ultimate sacrifice that would do away with the old and the temple system as the temple would be pointless after Jesus Chrsit died to make salvation possible for everyone human because we do not deserve or merit salvation through our own human efforts. The apostle Paul wrote that if Christ had not died and been resurrected then our faith was in vain. To us Jesus is not just a prophet but the literal Son of God, and with God the Father and the Holy Spirit make up the Holy Trinity, that is of one substance because there is only one God. Other than that there really isn't anything I can say that will change anyone's mind as to their faith because that's what religion is, a matter of pure faith. I deeply respect Islam and am not trying to convert anyone, just say what my faith is. I also deeply respect Judaism for the reason that as a Christian I am also a Jew, as was Jesus Christ and his mother and father. It is just that Christians believe the Jewish Messiah has already come and the Jews do not. But God made a Holy Covenant between Himself and the Jews and I have no reason to believe that He has forgotten that Covenant. And I believe that Christians are also included in that Covenant after the birth, life and death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ. That is my faith and it sustains me in my daily life. I hope that all is well with you and yours and wish you Peace and the Love of God, whose children we all are.
Larry

Larry,
I can understand a Muslim who dos not know Christianity may not understand what Christians mean by Trinity. But when you hear Christians being not so clear about trinity and are told to accept it as a mystry of faith, then there is a problem. And let me tell you this, my wife, a former Christian, and many other former Christians that I personally know here in the US and in Mexico have one thing very common they all say about Jesus and Trinity. Most of them say that they could not think of Jesus as God rather someone closer to God. And trinity was at times a mystery and we were told to believe in it as such.
When they were told how God is in Islam, i.e. God (God the Father in Christianity) is the Only One of One God. While holy spirit and Jesus are His creations serving Him, it all made sense.
And still, I understand that not all will believe but only those who God guides after they seek His forgiveness and guidance, God will guide them to His light and they will follow it to their own salvation.

Christians have nothing to sell more than the idea of a blood sacrifice, of Christ. If you take that out, they have nothing else left to sell, and I see it sell sometimes when one is too busy to do the understanding for themselves, rather they leave the thinking to other.
Salvation through blood sacrifice in Christianity has several problems.
1-you say Jesus is God, Jesus died to pay for your sins? It says at least two things:
a) God died, which cannot be so, God does not die.
b) NT says "he died for the sins of all the world. That says "all the world" it does not exclude anyone. So according to your book, his blood paid (if there is such a thing) "for not just your but for the whole world"
c) If someone's sins are already paid for what are they doing here, going through pain and sufferings, plus does that mean those thousands of priests that sexually abused thousands of innocent children have already been guaranteed salvation with God ( Christ's) blood sacrifice?

To the contrary to your claim, I find some Biblical quotes to be against your arguments: You remember where Jesus is quoted to have said, "if your hand commits a sin to cut it off from your body so you would not be thrown into the hell fire because of it" If we use two penny's worth of thought on that saying, it is very clear that if you sin, you will pay for it according to this quote. He would not have said such a thing if he taught that his blood will pay for the sins.

So my friend, if we follow what we just hear people repeating around us does not mean we are not to investigate and use our own mind a bit before falling for it blindly, or we will have our own self to blame, and of course to bear consequences.

We are God's creation, and I like to use proper term for what we are in reality and truth, His Creation. God does not have children nor parents. I am His creation, and His servant, nothing more than that. May God guide us to the right, Ameen.
Hasan

Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Larry
Date Posted: 23 June 2010 at 12:46am

Hasan,

   I find your statements regarding Christianity as ill-informed and in great disrespect. You write that Christians "have nothing to sell more than the idea of a blood sacrifice of Christ."
   Well, in spite of your wife and your friends's ignorance about the Passion of Christ, He died in order to make salvation readily available to people who do not by themselves merit God's salvation. The other part they seem to misunderstand is that Jesus Christ was resurrected bodily three days after his death, unlike other "prophets" who are long dead and turned to dust.
   You even throw in the sexual abuse of children by some Catholic priests, like that represents Christianity? It represents Christianity just the same as suicide bombing terrorists and mass murderers of innocent people (like the 9/11 "martyrs", represent Islam).
   Much of the Qur'an is lifted directly from the Old Testament of Judaism and the New Testament of Jesus Christ. To say otherwise is ridiculous, especially that "no Arabic translation of the Bible was available to Muhammad". Or maybe he was drawn to the monotheism that he encountered among the Jewish and Christian travelers and business people who visited Mecca and the Kaaba while his family, held rights to certain functions at the Kaaba such as providing drinking water. Muhammad disliked the pagan Arabian gods such as Hubal and the moon god, Sin, among many others. As a matter of fact, Islam's calendar is based on the moon and not the sun, a relic of pre-Islamic moon-worshipping times.
   I guess that's all the Muslims have to "sell" also? Such as the fable that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba, when in reality it was constructed by the Nabateans.
   You state that "if we follow just what we hear people repeating around us does not mean that we are not to investigate and use our own mind before falling for it blindly..." I guess that's a pretty good representation of the views of many of the Muslims on this forum who parrot the same old misinformation concerning Christ and Christianity, as if they alone know the "truth" while "Christians" hang onto their "blood sacrifices", etc.
   Your distaste for and mocking of Christianity says a lot about you and your faith. Some Christians aren't alone in their hypocrises, they are well represented by some the followers of Islam as well. So much for the "Peoples of the Book" B.S. The misogynist views of women in the Qur'an are also bizarre. I don't think you will find the advice to "beat them" (women) if they don't do as they are expected, in the Bible. Instead Psalms declares that a good wife is more precious than rubies.
   So, we can go back and forth, treating each other as morons and infidels for not following the "correct" path. I guess that all depends on which path one finds oneself.
   As for me, the Messiah has already come and told us what we need to do to achieve salvation, simply by having faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Son of God, who will sit in judgment at the end of the world. I put my faith in a risen Lord and not in the recitals of a long dead and buried "prophet."
   Now you can see what it feels like to be mocked in your faith.

Posted By: I♥Jesus
Date Posted: 23 June 2010 at 3:02am

honeto wrote:

Christians have nothing to sell more than the idea of a blood sacrifice, of Christ. If you take that out, they have nothing else left to sell, and I see it sell sometimes when one is too busy to do the understanding for themselves, rather they leave the thinking to other.

Hello Hasan,
I understand why you think that way, but the penal substitution theory (blood atonement) is not the only understanding of the Christ's salvific work. It is a minority, protestant opinion originating in John Calvin. Catholics, Orthodox, and most Protestants do not accept penal substitution. It really is the Calvinist (Reformed, Presbyterian) and Baptist churches.

One of the simplest explanations of why Jesus had to die on the cross and be raised from the dead was simply to demonstrate that life after death is real. There are several more, and I would be happy to participate in a thread on atonement if there is any Muslim interest in the subject.

-------------
If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. 5:48

Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 23 June 2010 at 3:22pm

Larry wrote:

   This is what you call proof of your statements? Of course the Trinity is not mentioned in the New Testament, it is understood and described through the writings of the New Testament. In the many instances where Jesus Christ is named Son of God, the Holy Spirit is described and God the Father and Jesus Christ being one, as I quoted in my earlier reply.
   If that's the best you can do to try and discredit the New Testament you have a long way to go. I am not a Muslim who has no trouble making the most tenuous and speculative "information" to "prove" that the New Testament is corrupted and that the Qur'an is the actual word of God.
   The point that you keep missing through your lack of understanding of the New Testament of Jesus Christ is that there is only ONE GOD and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all of one substance that is God.
   You can argue these points all you want, it is not going to change my thinking or beliefs. You're two-dimensional thinking will not uncover the true essence of God because you have no understanding of His true nature.

Dude, you need to relax. First of all, the information I provided proves quite succinctly that the New Testament has corruptions. What else should we call it when a scribe adds phrases and even whole paragraphs (such as in Mark 16) to the text centuries after the document was originally written? Would that not be an example of corruption?

Second of all, you don't have to be so defensive. I can see that you are very passionate about your beliefs, and I respect that. I know that I cannot change your mind. You have to change it yourself. I can only show you my perspective.

Thirdly, regarding my "two-dimensional" way of thinking, let me say that this is the result of what I feel is the ineffective and inefficient explanation of the trinity given by individual Christians and the Bible. I fail to see how all three components of the trinity are of "one substance", especially when they have different characteristics, and even limitations (as in the case of Jesus). I understand that to you it somehow makes sense, but I think it is more the result of your faith, and not actual comprehension of the entire concept. It would have made more sense to me as a non-Christian if the terms "father", "son" and "holy spirit" were not used, as they seem to denote a hierarchy of authority (God the Father sent God the son, which is actually Himself???"). I hope you can at least understand why non-Christians, especially Muslims and Jews, and even some Christians struggle with the idea.

-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 24 June 2010 at 2:02pm

Larry

You continue to equate God with a regular human being, and having the limitations of being a human. You say "How is it possible for the Father to be the Only True God while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well? If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the Only True God."
No it isn't, with God all things are possible. And you continue to use human standards to judge the reality of the Holy Trinity. I'm sorry that you can't understand the nature of the Holy Trinity.

Response

Let us concentrate the topic which we are discussing at that time.Ok if Isaiah 21 verse 7 is not talking about Prophet Muhammad then my question is:

Where in the Bible do we see the riding of the camel Prophecy being fulfilled? Who in the Bible was the Prophet that rode the camel to fulfill the Prophecy of Isaiah 21:7?

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 24 June 2010 at 2:18pm

Assalamu alaikum.

With all respect Muhammad Rasulullah did not come to treat the People of the Book the manner and way his followers are doing today. Let us concentrate on what I found written in the Babylonian Talmud:

The religion of the Jews taught at the time of Christ was a distortion of the simple truths explained in the Law of Moses and the Prophets. It was the teachings of the RABBI''s. These learned men elaborated, expounded upon and ADDED to the commands of God, to such an extent the Mosiac Law which should have been a blessing became a crushing burden to the common people. See also Matt 15 : 3 - 9, Matt 7 : 1 - 13 .

Friendship.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 June 2010 at 9:26pm

Larry wrote:

Hasan,

   I find your statements regarding Christianity as ill-informed and in great disrespect. You write that Christians "have nothing to sell more than the idea of a blood sacrifice of Christ."
   Well, in spite of your wife and your friends's ignorance about the Passion of Christ, He died in order to make salvation readily available to people who do not by themselves merit God's salvation. The other part they seem to misunderstand is that Jesus Christ was resurrected bodily three days after his death, unlike other "prophets" who are long dead and turned to dust.
   You even throw in the sexual abuse of children by some Catholic priests, like that represents Christianity? It represents Christianity just the same as suicide bombing terrorists and mass murderers of innocent people (like the 9/11 "martyrs", represent Islam).
   Much of the Qur'an is lifted directly from the Old Testament of Judaism and the New Testament of Jesus Christ. To say otherwise is ridiculous, especially that "no Arabic translation of the Bible was available to Muhammad". Or maybe he was drawn to the monotheism that he encountered among the Jewish and Christian travelers and business people who visited Mecca and the Kaaba while his family, held rights to certain functions at the Kaaba such as providing drinking water. Muhammad disliked the pagan Arabian gods such as Hubal and the moon god, Sin, among many others. As a matter of fact, Islam's calendar is based on the moon and not the sun, a relic of pre-Islamic moon-worshipping times.
   I guess that's all the Muslims have to "sell" also? Such as the fable that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba, when in reality it was constructed by the Nabateans.
   You state that "if we follow just what we hear people repeating around us does not mean that we are not to investigate and use our own mind before falling for it blindly..." I guess that's a pretty good representation of the views of many of the Muslims on this forum who parrot the same old misinformation concerning Christ and Christianity, as if they alone know the "truth" while "Christians" hang onto their "blood sacrifices", etc.
   Your distaste for and mocking of Christianity says a lot about you and your faith. Some Christians aren't alone in their hypocrises, they are well represented by some the followers of Islam as well. So much for the "Peoples of the Book" B.S. The misogynist views of women in the Qur'an are also bizarre. I don't think you will find the advice to "beat them" (women) if they don't do as they are expected, in the Bible. Instead Psalms declares that a good wife is more precious than rubies.
   So, we can go back and forth, treating each other as morons and infidels for not following the "correct" path. I guess that all depends on which path one finds oneself.
   As for me, the Messiah has already come and told us what we need to do to achieve salvation, simply by having faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Son of God, who will sit in judgment at the end of the world. I put my faith in a risen Lord and not in the recitals of a long dead and buried "prophet."
   Now you can see what it feels like to be mocked in your faith.

Larry,
your response was the most ridiculous of any I've ever heard.

First let me tell you, to those who you are calling ignorant are not only smarter than you, but also more informed about their previous belief of Christianity and their new belief Islam then you the average Joe is, actually they are more knowledgeable than some of those who lead services at your churches.
You have nothing impressive to offer but to repeat, what others have put in your head and you repeat even without understanding or seeing that you make no sense at all.
It is not me who says that 'blood sacrifice of Christ' is the most important thing in Christianity, rather its people like you who tell me this all the time. Saying that without it there is nothing left?
I say, its was not the death of Christ, rather his life that was more important and with a purpose.

Another point that I made that passed over your head was that what you said. You said that Jesus' death paid for the sins (of people like you who believe in him). Don't those priests believe in him, the one's who have been sexually abusing and preying on innocent kids ever since. And you aretelling me that its these kind of people who's sins are paid for by the blood of Christ, according to what you believe? That's just a question to you. And I did not ask you to reference that to Muslims, I am asking yours as a Christian's response to that question, leave others for other threads.

A Muslim will never argue that the Quran and the older scriptures are from God, One and only God, and in their pure state have a common message and same essence.
It is the human influence that altered the true message God sent through the OT/Nt thus making it necessary that a pure word of God be revealed, which did happen in the form of the Quran as a Mercy from God.
Your claim, that the Quran is directly lifted from OT and NT is absurd and very common illusion among those of you who have only read it in parts when someone else has pointed out verses to you, had you read it all, you would avoid saying that. Let me challenge you with a couple of verses to prove you are mislead and mistaken.

Search For: 112 - -

112:1 (Y. Ali) Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

112:2 (Y. Ali) Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

112:3 (Y. Ali) He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

112:4 (Y. Ali) And there is none like unto Him.

Can you prove what you said by pointing out from where in OT/NT these verses came from?

Here is another challenge for you:

4:171 (Asad) O FOLLOWERS of the Gospel! Do not overstep the bounds [of truth] in your religious beliefs, and do not say of God anything but the truth. The Christ Jesus, son of Mary, was but God's Apostle - [the fulfilment of] His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary - and a soul created by Him. Believe, then, in God and His apostles, and do not say, "[God is] a trinity". Desist [from this assertion] for your own good. God is but One God; utterly remote is He, in His glory, from having a son: unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God.

Now let me quote some verses from the NT/OT and ask you to find their 'pull outs" as you say in the Quran.

1-A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

2-If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

3-1 corinthians 11:6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

4-Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

5-1 John 2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense�Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

6-1 Samuel 18:10
The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did.

These are some of the verses I could think of, if the Quran is lifted from OT/NT as you claim, then prove your claim and find those verses that are based on them, if you speak the truth?

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 25 June 2010 at 1:11am

Mansoor_ali wrote:

Larry

You continue to equate God with a regular human being, and having the limitations of being a human. You say "How is it possible for the Father to be the Only True God while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well? If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the Only True God."
No it isn't, with God all things are possible. And you continue to use human standards to judge the reality of the Holy Trinity. I'm sorry that you can't understand the nature of the Holy Trinity.

Response

Let us concentrate the topic which we are discussing at that time.Ok if Isaiah 21 verse 7 is not talking about Prophet Muhammad then my question is:

Where in the Bible do we see the riding of the camel Prophecy being fulfilled? Who in the Bible was the Prophet that rode the camel to fulfill the Prophecy of Isaiah 21:7?

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 25 June 2010 at 12:54pm

JOUBERAR

The corruption lies not with the Bible, but rather with the Qur'an, the creation of Arabs in need of a religious text to substantiate their developing monotheistic religion.

Response

Please prove your claim that Arabs need religious text in order to substantiate their monotheistic religion.

JOUBERAR

Large parts of the Qur'an are direct transfers from the Bible.

Response

Again prove it.

JOUBERAR

Many more parts of the Qur'an contain stories about personalities from the Bible, but often the stories are incorrect. The Qur'an states that Mary was Aaron's sister, that the great Flood of Noah occurred during the time of Moses, and that Joseph was bought as a slave by an Egyptian named Aziz (instead of Potiphar), to name a few.

Response

Sorry these Quranic stories are not incorrect.Here is reply:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mary.html - Mary,the sister of Aaron?

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/aziz.html - Al- - ʿAzīz & Potiphar: A Confused Nomenclature?

http://answering-christianity.com/bible_quran_differences.htm - A flood in the time of Moses?

JOUBERAR

The evidence seems to point to an early acquaintance with the Christian scriptures during the early years of the Arab Empire, and also to the misunderstanding of much of what they heard and saw in them. The Arabs merely cobbled together their various impressions of what they had heard, and made them a part of the Qur'an.

Response

Prove your claim.

JOUBERAR

While the falsity of Muslim claims for the revelation of the Qur'an and its subsequent lack of change have been previously exposed, the Muslim charges concerning the corruption of the Bible ought to be addressed briefly.

Response

Prove that Quran had been changed?

JOUBERAR

Islam has yet to produce any textual evidence to demonstrate the corruption of the Biblical texts as a whole. Often, Muslims will try to point to differences in readings between individual manuscripts, and use this to support their assertion. However, the science of textual criticism, as applied to the task of systematically examining the manuscript evidence, provides Christian scholars the ability to distinguish between true and spurious readings in individual manuscripts. The body of evidence, from Greek manuscripts, the manuscripts of other ancient versions (Old Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Latin Vulgate, etc.), and the quotations of early Christian writers allows us to determine the content of the original autographic texts with as yet unassailed certainty.

Response

Visit: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/ - Examining the Bible

JOUBERAR

It should be noted that, as was dealt with earlier, Islam cannot truthfully make the same claim, and in fact is logistically unable to even make the attempt because of the artificial standardisation of the Arabic Qur�an text by Uthman, and the subsequent destruction of most all contrary Quranic manuscript evidence. Thus, the Muslim assertion rests entirely on blind faith in what amounts to a tradition handed down through Islam for roughly 1500 years. Facts show, however, that the texts used to produce the Bible are the preserved, uncorrupted words of God.

Response

Visit: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ - Examining the Quran

JOUBERAR

Here is the answer to your long lasting strugle.

Response

Now if you believe in trinity then you contradict with John 17:3.

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Notice how the Father is being referred to as THE ONLY TRUE GOD.How is it possible for the Father to be the ONLY true God, while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well? If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the ONLY true God. Similarly, if we say that the Father is the ONLY true God then we can't say that anyone else (i.e. Son and Holy Spirit) is God as well.

It is not possible for any one of the persons (Father, Son or Holy Spirit) to be the ONLY true God at the same time when the other two are God as well.I contend that John 17:3 is the hermeneutical key that one should use to understand all the other verses for it is unambiguous and clear.It is logically impossible for the Father who is a different person from the Son and Holy Spirit to be the only true God at the same time when the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well.

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 25 June 2010 at 4:26pm

I have a request for everyone... please use quote button to help keep it to the point and simple!
Long rambling screeds kill the fun, focus or both!

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 25 June 2010 at 4:52pm

Assalaamu alaikum.

JOUBERAR

Large parts of the Qur'an are direct transfers from the Bible.

Response: The holy apostle spent 13 years inviting the People of the Book to what their prophets and messengers brought to their tribes. One can say about 80% of the holy Qur'an is made up of what Allah revealed from Adam to Jesus the son of Maryam. There were only two messenger- Moses and Jesus the son of Maryam before Muhammad Rasulullah. Logically, his invitation or preaching must be what their prophets and messengers taught. Muhammad never claimed to bring something new! The Arabs i.e. Quraysh heard about Muhammad from the Jewish clan of Levi and the christian muslim followers of Jesus the son of maryam living especially in syria. The cousin of Khadija was a muslim follower of Jesus who knew about the prophecy in the Bible and hoped to live when Muhammad will be given the Messengership. The holy apostle had contact with the followers of Jesus the son of maryam when they came to Madina after the conquest of Makka to ask about the nature of Jesus. They were told and did not dispute with him. They went back to their state of Najran accompanied by Abu Ubayda ibn Jarrah to be their umpire in their disputes. He was sent at their request. His contact with them could not be more than 2 weeks. However he lived with the Jewish clan of levi for about 6 years in Madina. They were responsible i.e. instrument to the sending down of the Shari'a, simplified version of the Ten commandment, containing the Mercy of Allah.

We should concern ourselves with the absolute truth that Muhammad lived peacefully with the Jews and those who called themselves Christians. There was never any direct engagement with the true followers of Jesus the son of Maryam. The Jews knew about covenants and he treated them according to what is laid down in the Old Testament.

I read the commentary of the bible by Rev. Matthew Henry. and the American revised edition of the Bible. A muslim should only understand and believe in those verses similar to what is explained in the Qur'an. This easy if one understands Arabic. One has to treat the bible in the manner we treat the ahadith of the holy apostle. It is the Qur'an that Allah promised to protect and not any scripture before it.

Please let us distinguish between the Christians of the Byzantine empire who tortured their contemporaries and the Jews and the christians who all accepted Islam voluntarily. Let us give credit please to the sunna of the holy apostle for he stabilized the world.

Friendship

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 27 June 2010 at 12:06pm

To Larry

Larry,next time i will not write or quote or copy any article over "who was riding the camel" now my focus is new topic which is ongoing between you and Hasan.

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 29 June 2010 at 6:20am

Friendship wrote:

Assalaamu alaikum.

JOUBERAR

Large parts of the Qur'an are direct transfers from the Bible.

Friendship

Muhammad lived six hundred or so years after Mary and Jesus. What were his sources for their life?

Devout Muslims say that over time Allah sent Gabriel down to reveal the entire Quran to his favorite prophet Muhammad.

Muhammad even asserts in the Quran that he was not there during the events in the life of Mary, but he still has revelations from Allah, so who needs facts?

3:44 This is an account of things [about Mary�s childhood] beyond your knowledge that We [Allah] revealed to you [Muhammad]: you were not present . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur�an, Oxford UP, 2004; first two additions in brackets are ours)

This verse spells out the epistemological challenge to devout Muslims and to everyone else. (Epistemology studies how we acquire our knowledge.) In effect, Muhammad says, "I wasn�t there, so believe that I got these events in Mary�s life from Allah!" Thus, belief has been exalted to high heaven. Revelation seems to trump all other kinds of knowledge, such as careful research. But what if the revelations are built on fictions? Should we then believe in them?

This is far different from Luke�s narrative about the birth of Jesus. He said he conducted careful research into events while they were still fresh in people�s minds (Luke 1:1-4). Neither he nor other Biblical authors set up the following unrealistically high standard: "I was not there 600 years ago, so if I assert by a revelational trance that any event of long ago is historical (but it really is not), then still believe me against all odds. I get the knowledge of these events from a Gabriel-induced spell, no matter what the facts say. I did not get these verifiable facts from human sources, so don�t come along after me and research my claims!"

Biblical inspiration allows for an "organic" and human-cooperative connection to the Holy Spirit. Does Muhammad use the same care as Luke does? No, so that means his unrealistically inspired Quran is set up for a fall, once some facts contradict it.

Young Mary receives provision and care in Sura 3:37 and 3:44.

Muhammad loved to tell the stories of the Bible, but in his own special way. He adds and deletes details, compared to the original versions. He editorializes the Bible on Noah, Abraham, Lot, and Moses, for example, but most significantly he borrows and editorializes the birth and childhood of Mary. The canonical Four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are completely silent about this legend.

However, an apocryphal gospel invents fictions about Mary, from which Muhammad borrowed.

The Quran says:

3:37 Her Lord graciously accepted her and made her grow in goodness, and entrusted her to the charge of Zachariah. Whenever Zachariah went to see her in her sanctuary, he found her supplied with provisions. He said, "Mary how is it you have found these provisions?" and she said, "They are from God: God provides limitlessly for whoever He wills." (Haleem)

This passage says that young Mary was put under the charge of Zechariah, an old man. Mary is found in a sanctuary. She receives provisions miraculously. Where does Muhammad receive this fiction?

The main ideas in this passage are clearly taken from the Protevangelium of James, also titled Birth of Mary. Revelation of James or Book of James, among other titles (in The New Testament Apocrypha, vol. 1, rev. ed. by W. Schneemelcher, trans. R. McL. Wilson, Westminster / John Knox, 1991). It is not part of the New Testament canon, coming late in history and conflicting so egregiously with the unadorned Four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, all of which have apostolic attestation. The Book of James, in contrast, is a work of fiction and imagination.

The apocryphal gospel says:

5.1 And she [Anna, Mary�s mother] made a sanctuary in her [Mary�s] bedchamber . . . 8.1 And Mary was in the Temple nurtured like a dove and received food from the hand of an angel . . . (New Testament Apocrypha, p. 429)

In these two accounts, some of the details have been changed in the Quran, or Muhammad received a variation of the legend, but the general agreement of the two accounts is remarkable. First, the settings in a holy place match up. In the Quran, Mary lives in a sanctuary; in the pseudo-gospel, she lives first in a sanctuary at home, and then she is moved to a large sanctuary, the Temple. Second, the miracle provisions match up. The Quran says that Mary received miraculous provisions from Allah; the pseudo-gospel says an angel gave them to her. Third, as we shall see in the next comparison, the old age and calling of the two men match up. The Quran says that Zechariah, an old man, was given charge over her, while the pseudo-gospel says that Zechariah, at least for a short moment, was give charge over her (8.3). But Joseph, an old man (and future husband), will be given permanent guardianship over her, leading to marriage.

Muhammad was not a scholar, so we must not see him as having dry parchments or dusty papyri manuscripts in front of him, so that he can borrow from them phrase for phrase. Rather, these stories circulated around the trade routes, being told and retold by poets and storytellers and regular folk. So some of the details change over the centuries, or Muhammad changes them (or both), but the essence or overall picture remains.

The Quran in Sura 3:44 elaborates on how custody of young Mary was decided�casting lots, in the setting of some tumult among the candidates who are summoned possibly to care for her.

The Quran says:

3:44 This is an account of things beyond your knowledge that We reveal to you [Muhammad]: you were not present among them when they cast lots to see which of them should take charge of Mary, you were not present when they argued [about her] . . . (Haleem)

The same apocryphal gospel says that divining rods were used to decide on the custody of young Mary. This passage describes some tumult among the candidates as well.

Mary receives two pseudo-miracles in Sura 19:23-26.

Sura 19 is named after Mary. According to Sura 19:16-26, Mary traveled to the east and secluded herself. An angel came and promised her a son. She conceived miraculously, and during the pains of childbirth she cries out.

The Quran says:

19:23 . . . [A]nd, when the pain of childbirth drove her to cling to the trunk of the palm tree, she exclaimed, "I wish I had been long dead and forgotten before all this!" 24 but a voice cried to her from below, "Do not worry: your Lord has provided a stream at your feet 25 and, if you shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, it will deliver fresh ripe dates for you, 26 so eat, drink, be glad . . . (Haleem)

This story of miraculous deliverance through a palm tree and a stream of water comes from the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, or more accurately, The Book About the Origin of the Blessed Mary and the Childhood of the Savior.

Muhammad alters a passage in this pseudo-gospel, or he heard an altered version of it (or both). He connects the miracle of the palm and the stream to Mary giving birth to Jesus, but the non-canonical gospel says that the baby Jesus worked the miracle. Joseph and Mary are concerned about food and water as they travel to Egypt. The infant Jesus overhears their conversation and solves their problem.

The apocryphal gospel says:

Then the child Jesus, who was sitting with a happy countenance in his mother�s lap, said to the palm: "Bend down your branches, O tree, and refresh my mother with your fruit." And immediately at this command [voice] the palm bent down to the feet of the blessed Mary, and they gathered from its fruit and they all refreshed themselves . . . [Addressing the palm, Jesus says:] "And open beneath your roots a vein of water . . . and let the waters flow" . . . And when they saw the fountain of water, they greatly rejoiced and quenched their thirst . . . (The New Testament Apocrypha, vol. 1, p. 463)

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 29 June 2010 at 6:34am

Mansoor_ali wrote:

JOUBERAR

The corruption lies not with the Bible, but rather with the Qur'an, the creation of Arabs in need of a religious text to substantiate their developing monotheistic religion.

Response

Please prove your claim that Arabs need religious text in order to substantiate their monotheistic religion.

JOUBERAR

Large parts of the Qur'an are direct transfers from the Bible.

Response

Again prove it.

JOUBERAR

Response

Sorry these Quranic stories are not incorrect.Here is reply:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mary.html - Mary,the sister of Aaron?

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/aziz.html - Al- - ʿAzīz & Potiphar: A Confused Nomenclature?

http://answering-christianity.com/bible_quran_differences.htm - A flood in the time of Moses?

JOUBERAR

Response

Prove your claim.

Visit: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ - Examining the Quran

JOUBERAR

Here is the answer to your long lasting strugle.

Response

Now if you believe in trinity then you contradict with John 17:3.

John 17:3

Mansoor it seems to me that you just cant read properly can't you see the holy spirit is God or what else is He a unholy spirit He is the only holy spirit

and there nothing holier than God's spirit so please dont try and make short cuts to run away from the truth.

It is good that you see something realistic in the so called corrupt bible

Now if you believe in trinity then you contradict with John 17:3.

John 17:3

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 30 June 2010 at 1:39pm

JOUBERAR wrote:

Muhammad lived six hundred or so years after Mary and Jesus. What were his sources for their life?

Devout Muslims say that over time Allah sent Gabriel down to reveal the entire Quran to his favorite prophet Muhammad.

Muhammad even asserts in the Quran that he was not there during the events in the life of Mary, but he still has revelations from Allah, so who needs facts?

Young Mary receives provision and care in Sura 3:37 and 3:44.

However, an apocryphal gospel invents fictions about Mary, from which Muhammad borrowed.

The Quran says:

This passage says that young Mary was put under the charge of Zechariah, an old man. Mary is found in a sanctuary. She receives provisions miraculously. Where does Muhammad receive this fiction?

The apocryphal gospel says:

The Quran in Sura 3:44 elaborates on how custody of young Mary was decided�casting lots, in the setting of some tumult among the candidates who are summoned possibly to care for her.

The Quran says:

The same apocryphal gospel says that divining rods were used to decide on the custody of young Mary. This passage describes some tumult among the candidates as well.

Mary receives two pseudo-miracles in Sura 19:23-26.

The Quran says:

The apocryphal gospel says:

Here is response to above article : http://answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/concise_reply_to_james_arlandson.htm -

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 01 July 2010 at 2:25pm

Assalamu alaikum.

Jouberar Posts:
But what if the revelations are built on fictions? Should we then believe in them?

Response. Muhammad lived physically with about 3,000 tribes of the Levi tribe in Madina for about six years. They never challenged him or denied what they knew to conform to what is in their book. Take the case of the circumstances leading to the revelation of chapter 12 named Joseph. So what you are saying is that the whole of the Bible is fiction especially the 1844 verses in self-pronouncing Red letter in the New Testament. As for the second component of the holy Qur'an- the life history i.e the practices or the Sunna of the holy Apostle there is no element of fiction in them.
What is fictional in chapter 3:6, "He (Allah) it is Who shaped you in the wombs as He wills." What is fictional again in Qur'an chapter 13:2, "Allah is He Who raised the heavens without pillars that you can see."
The most important teaching and practice of Muhammad was the incontestable peace and the protection he gave to the Jews in Madina.
Friendship.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 01 July 2010 at 2:42pm

To JOUBERAR

Your own sources admit that Bible contains fiction.For example:

"The Bible contains many different styles of writing such as poetry, narration, fiction, history, law, and prophecy and must be interpreted in context of those styles. It is the source of the Christian religion in that the Bible contains the words of God and how the Christian is to apply the words of God to his life."Source : http://www.carm.org/seek/Bible.htm - http://www.carm.org/seek/Bible.htm

So carm.org agrees that the bible contains fiction.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 01 July 2010 at 9:31pm

Jouberar,
there is ample evidence in the Bible that clearly shows that God (The Fahter), the Holy ghost/spirit, and Jesus are not same nor equal. There is in contrast to Christian claim that all three were equal and all three are God.
For example:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10:21&version=NIV - Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth..
Here Jesus is admitting and praising someone else, Father (God) as Lord of Heaven and Earth, which is true, and clearly shows that he is in no way saying anything else except that God is the Lord of all.

Here is another one:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12:10&version=NIV - Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

In this translation you can easily tell that Jesus and Holy spirit are not the same nor equal. Because speaking against Jesus is forgiven, but against holy spirit is not. That is clear with that that they are not same, nor equal.

Here is another one:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+16:5&version=NIV - John 16:5
"Now I am going to him who sent me, ...
This one clearly shows, who is the boss, who sends who?
Does the boss sends His servant or the servant sends his boss to do work?
Obviously the one who has the power to send is the boss (God) whom He sends (Jesus) the servant.
Here is another one:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+5:32&version=NIV - Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
One who give is greater, God gives holy spirit, means that God has power over it. Show me one verse where holy spirit is said to have given God to anyone?
That verse proves also that holy spirit is subjected to God, God sent or give it to whom He decides so, for whatever task He wishes.
The following verse also say the same:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+2:4&version=NIV - Hebrews 2:4
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His will.
It shows that God sends "Holy Spirit" by His will as a gift to who He wishes.
The following verse clearly says that the "holy spirit" is like a messenger a carrier of the message as we Muslims believe:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter+1:21&version=NIV - 2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
It shows that what is called "Holy spirit" is subject to God, and thus not equal,nor same as God.

As far as Jesus and God, we have already shown you already, that the Bible shows that they were not the same, Jesus was not God, nor he claimed, nor was he equal to God.
Here is still a repeat of a couple of quotes anyway:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10:18&version=NIV - Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good�except God alone.
We know God is good, Jesus knows that what is being asked, so he separates himself and don't want to say something he knew he could not say. So he say, "no one is good except God" indeed true.
Here is anther one:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+15:34&version=NIV - Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"�which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
I close with this quote:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+20:17&version=NIV - John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

Here Jesus (pbuh) says that he has a God, like you and me and all, to whom he says he is returning. I don't know why you don't see clear evidence like this one where it is crystal clear that he was not god, rather he declared that he has God, same we all do.
May God guide us all.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 03 July 2010 at 4:57pm

Mansoor_ali wrote:

JOUBERAR wrote:

Muhammad lived six hundred or so years after Mary and Jesus. What were his sources for their life?

Devout Muslims say that over time Allah sent Gabriel down to reveal the entire Quran to his favorite prophet Muhammad.

Muhammad even asserts in the Quran that he was not there during the events in the life of Mary, but he still has revelations from Allah, so who needs facts?

Young Mary receives provision and care in Sura 3:37 and 3:44.

However, an apocryphal gospel invents fictions about Mary, from which Muhammad borrowed.

The Quran says:

This passage says that young Mary was put under the charge of Zechariah, an old man. Mary is found in a sanctuary. She receives provisions miraculously. Where does Muhammad receive this fiction?

The apocryphal gospel says:

The Quran in Sura 3:44 elaborates on how custody of young Mary was decided�casting lots, in the setting of some tumult among the candidates who are summoned possibly to care for her.

The Quran says:

The same apocryphal gospel says that divining rods were used to decide on the custody of young Mary. This passage describes some tumult among the candidates as well.

Mary receives two pseudo-miracles in Sura 19:23-26.

The Quran says:

The apocryphal gospel says:

Here is response to above article : http://answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/concise_reply_to_james_arlandson.htm - A Concise Rebuttal to James Arlandson's Article "Apocryphal gospels in the Quran"

What you tend to tell that the Quran contains verses from apocryphal books now I wonder who shot himself through the foot so the Quran is a concoction of hearsay stories which is mangled together to form Muhammad's so called holy book written by Uthman.

James was right the Quran is work of imagination.

James tends to discredit the authenticity of the Quran by trying to prove that some verses of the Quran contain verses from the apocryphal books. James is arguing that the Quran is copied from books that are "a work of fiction and imagination". However, just because the Quran contains verses from apocryphal books that does not disprove that it is from God.

Moreover, the Lord Jesus said: �Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words

shall not pass away� (Matthew 24:35).So bey bey Muhammad's so called words of no god.

The Quran thus existed in a complete and ordered form in the memories of men,(take note men) but no complete written copy of it existed at the time, nor could such a copy be made while the Prophet was alive, and still receiving revelations. But the whole of the Quran in one arrangement was safely preserved in the memories of reciters (qurra'). It happened, however, that many of the reciters fell in the famous battle of Yamama, in the caliphate of Abu Bakr, and it was then that 'Umar urged upon him the necessity of compiling a standard written copy, so that no portion of the Quran should be lost even if all the reciters were to die. And this copy was compiled, not from the hundreds of copies that had been made by individual Companions for their own use but from the manuscripts written under the direction of the Prophet himself, and the arrangement adopted was that of the oral recitation as followed in his time. Thus a standard written copy was prepared, which was entrusted to the care of Hafsah, wife of the Prophet. But still no arrangement had been made for securing the accuracy of the numerous copies that were in circulation. This was done by 'Uthman who ordered several copies to be made of the copy prepared in the time of the first Caliph, and these were then sent to the different Islamic centres so that all copies made by individuals should be compared with the standard copy at each centre.

Here is an account of what took place: "Anas son of Malik relates that Hudhaifah came to 'Uthman, and he had been fighting along with the people of Syria in the conquest of Armenia and along with the people of Iraq in Azerbaijan, and was alarmed at their variations in the mode of reading (the Quran), and said to him, O Commander of the Faithful, stop the people before they differ in the Holy Book as the Jews and the Christians differ in their scriptures. So 'Uthman sent word to Hafsah, asking her to send him the Quran in her possession so that they might make other copies of it and then send the original copy back to her. Thereupon Hafsah sent the copy to 'Uthman, and he ordered Zaid ibn Thabit and 'Abd Allah ibn Zubair and Sa'd ibn al-'As and 'Abd al Rahman ibn Harith ibn Hisham, and they made copies from the original copy. 'Uthman also said to the three men who belonged to the Quraish (Zaid only being a Madinite), 'where you differ with Zaid in anything concerning the Quran write it in the manner of the Quraish, for it is in their language that it was revealed.' They obeyed these instructions, and when they had made the required number of copies from the original copy, 'Uthman returned the original to Hafsah, and sent to every quarter one of the copies thus made, and ordered all other copies or leaves on which the Quran was written to be burned" (Bu. 66:3).

Now who is fooling who Mansoor the bible is much much beter preserved and writen so show me something beter.

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 03 July 2010 at 5:15pm

honeto wrote:

Jouberar,
there is ample evidence in the Bible that clearly shows that God (The Fahter), the Holy ghost/spirit, and Jesus are not same nor equal. There is in contrast to Christian claim that all three were equal and all three are God.
For example:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10:21&version=NIV - Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth..
Here Jesus is admitting and praising someone else, Father (God) as Lord of Heaven and Earth, which is true, and clearly shows that he is in no way saying anything else except that God is the Lord of all.

Here is another one:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12:10&version=NIV - Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

In this translation you can easily tell that Jesus and Holy spirit are not the same nor equal. Because speaking against Jesus is forgiven, but against holy spirit is not. That is clear with that that they are not same, nor equal.

Here is another one:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+16:5&version=NIV - John 16:5
"Now I am going to him who sent me, ...
This one clearly shows, who is the boss, who sends who?
Does the boss sends His servant or the servant sends his boss to do work?
Obviously the one who has the power to send is the boss (God) whom He sends (Jesus) the servant.
Here is another one:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+5:32&version=NIV - Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
One who give is greater, God gives holy spirit, means that God has power over it. Show me one verse where holy spirit is said to have given God to anyone?
That verse proves also that holy spirit is subjected to God, God sent or give it to whom He decides so, for whatever task He wishes.
The following verse also say the same:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+2:4&version=NIV - Hebrews 2:4
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His will.
It shows that God sends "Holy Spirit" by His will as a gift to who He wishes.
The following verse clearly says that the "holy spirit" is like a messenger a carrier of the message as we Muslims believe:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter+1:21&version=NIV - 2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
It shows that what is called "Holy spirit" is subject to God, and thus not equal,nor same as God.

As far as Jesus and God, we have already shown you already, that the Bible shows that they were not the same, Jesus was not God, nor he claimed, nor was he equal to God.
Here is still a repeat of a couple of quotes anyway:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10:18&version=NIV - Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good�except God alone.
We know God is good, Jesus knows that what is being asked, so he separates himself and don't want to say something he knew he could not say. So he say, "no one is good except God" indeed true.
Here is anther one:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+15:34&version=NIV - Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"�which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
I close with this quote:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+20:17&version=NIV - John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

Here Jesus (pbuh) says that he has a God, like you and me and all, to whom he says he is returning. I don't know why you don't see clear evidence like this one where it is crystal clear that he was not god, rather he declared that he has God, same we all do.
May God guide us all.

Hasan

The fact that the Holy Spirit is God is clearly seen in many Scriptures, including http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%205.3-4 - Acts 5:3-4 . In this verse Peter confronts Ananias as to why he lied to the Holy Spirit and tells him that he had �not lied to men but to God.� It is a clear declaration that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. We can also know that the Holy Spirit is God because He possesses the characteristics of God. For example, His omnipresence is seen in http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Psalm%20139.7-8 - Psalm 139:7-8 , �Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.� Then in http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Corinthians%202.10-11 - 1 Corinthians 2:10-11 , we see the characteristic of omniscience in the Holy Spirit. �But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man�s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.�

Again in Samaria, the people were saved and baptized in water, yet the Holy Spirit had fallen on none of them. In Acts 19:2, Paul asked a group of believers, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" The gift of the Holy Ghost was so real, believers were expected to know whether they had received it or not. Pentecost is an experience. It is NOT somebody teaching you how to say a few words that they call a prayer language. It is a definite experience of God the Holy Ghost coming into you, and you into Him.

The fullness of the Holy Ghost brings the certainty of revelation to the heart. The men of Pentecost knew the things of God. No theological instruction could have given Peter the doctrine he preached concerning Christ's life, death and resurrection. "At that day ye shall know..." (John 14:20), said Jesus, and when that day came, they knew. They knew the essential relationship between Christ and God. They knew the mysterious union between Christ and the believer. They knew that Christ was in the believer as the Son was in the Father. The Spirit filled believers know. All questions are answered in the Holy Ghost. He is the mind of God. Being led of the Spirit is simply knowing the mind of God, knowing the thoughts of God.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 11:41am

To JOUBERAR

Is Holy Spirit God? Is the Holy Spirit All Knowing?

We shall highlight two pieces of evidence that prove that the Holy Spirit is not all knowing, which will prove that this being is not God, which will prove that Christianity is actually false for those who believe the Holy Spirit is God.

Gospel of Matthew, chapter 11 verse 27

"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him"

Here we have Jesus saying that no one knows the Father except Jesus, this obviously means the Holy Spirit doesn't know the Father since the Holy Spirit isn't Jesus. Jesus goes on to say that no one knows the Son except the Father, once again this shows that the Holy Spirit does not know the Son neither, so not only does the Holy Spirit not know the Father, he doesn't know the Son neither!

If the Holy Spirit was all-knowing you would expect it to know both the Father and Son, however so Jesus is clear that he is the only one who knows the Father, and that the Father is the only one who knows him.

So as you can see Jesus says that ONLY the Father knows the last hour, this obviously excludes everyone else who isn't the Father since only means only, if only Jack knows something specific then that means only Jack knows and not Bob and Harry!

This is one case, yet there is still more. Our second evidence comes from Matthew chapter 24, verse 36 which reads:

But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So as you can see Jesus says that ONLY the Father knows the last hour, this obviously excludes everyone else who isn't the Father since only means only, if only Jack knows something specific then that means only Jack knows and not Bob and Harry!

So the Holy Spirit does not know the last hour, which shows it is not God since only God knows the last hour, so these are 2 separate incidents that reveal the Holy Spirit is not all knowing.

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 04 July 2010 at 5:52pm

Mansoor_ali wrote:

To JOUBERAR

Is Holy Spirit God? Is the Holy Spirit All Knowing?

We shall highlight two pieces of evidence that prove that the Holy Spirit is not all knowing, which will prove that this being is not God, which will prove that Christianity is actually false for those who believe the Holy Spirit is God.

This is one case, yet there is still more. Our second evidence comes from Matthew chapter 24, verse 36 which reads:

But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So the Holy Spirit does not know the last hour, which shows it is not God since only God knows the last hour, so these are 2 separate incidents that reveal the Holy Spirit is not all knowing.

Where do came out this idea that the holy Spirit is not God this was from the beginning GOD or what is your idea of the holy spirit so your claims that Christians is false is vague only since muslims have became educated they filed numerous claims about contradictions in Bible while the Quran were full of contadictions and best of all is completly false from A TO Z..

Holy Spirit of God In Scripture

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/genesis_1.html - Gen. 1:2 The Spirit of God moved upon waters in beginning.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/genesis_6.html - Gen. 6:3 God's Spirit will not contend with man forever.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/exodus_31.html - Ex. 31:3 God put His Spirit in many chosen Old Testament people.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/judges_14.html - Judges 14:19 Spirit of God can come upon you in power, at certain times.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/1_samuel_16.html - 1Sam. 16:13 Spirit of God can come upon you and stay forever.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/1_samuel_16.html - 1Sam. 16:14 Spirit of God can depart from you forever.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/1_samuel_19.html - 1Sam. 19:20-23 Spirit of God can cause you to prophecy, even unlearned.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/2_samuel_23.html - 2Sam. 23:2 Spirit of God can speak thru you.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/1_kings_18.html - 1Kings 18:12 Spirit of God can carry you places.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/nehemiah_9.html - Neh. 9:20 Spirit of God can instruct you.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/psalms_139.html - Psalm 139:7 You can't hide from Holy Spirit of God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/psalms_143.html - Psalm 143:4-12 To uplift spirit, commune with Holy Spirit of God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/psalms_143.html - Psalm 143:10 The Holy Spirit of God is God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/isaiah_11.html - Is. 11:2 Spirit of God is Spirit of wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge, fear of the Lord.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/isaiah_30.html - Is. 30:1 Cover your self with the Holy Spirit of God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/isaiah_32.html - Is. 32:14-15 Israel is desolate until Holy Spirit is poured on them.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/isaiah_34.html - Is. 34:16 Holy Spirit does the gathering. (as with Noah)

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/isaiah_48.html - Is. 48:16 God and His Spirit sent Jesus. (Trinity)

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/isaiah_59.html - Is. 59:21 Holy Spirit of God shall be with people to prophesy forever.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/ezekiel_1.html - Eze. 1:12 Wherever the Spirit would go Eze. beast (vision) followed.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/ezekiel_1.html - Eze. 1:20 The Holy Spirit can enter you and stand you on your feet.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/joel_2.html - Joel 2:28 God will pour His Spirit upon all people.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/micah_3.html - Micah 3:8 You can be filled with power by Spirit of God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/zechariah_4.html - Zech. 4:6 Not by might or power but by the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/matthew_1.html - Matt. 1:18-20 The Holy Ghost can cause one to bear a child.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/matthew_3.html - Matt. 3:11 Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/matthew_3.html - Matt. 3:16 Holy Ghost can take any form.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/matthew_10.html - Matt. 10:20 Holy Ghost speaks thru you.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/matthew_12.html - Matt. 12:28 Demons are driven out by Spirit of God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/matthew_12.html - Matt. 12:31-32 Blaspheme against Holy Spirit is unforgivable.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/luke_11.html - Luke 11:13 God will give the Holy Ghost to whoever asks Him.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/luke_12.html - Luke 12:12 The Holy Spirit teaches you.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/john_3.html - John 3:5 You must be reborn in the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/john_3.html - John 3:6 The Holy Spirit gives birth to your spirit.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/john_3.html - John 3:34 God gives the Holy Spirit without limit.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/john_7.html - John 7:39 Those that believe will receive the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/john_14.html - John 14:17 Holy Spirit is Spirit of Truth and a counselor.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/john_16.html - John 16:7 Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/john_16.html - John 16:13 Holy Spirit will guide you and speak what He hears from God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/john_20.html - John 20:22 Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_2.html - Acts 2:4 The Holy Ghost enables you to speak in tongues.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_2.html - Acts 2:38 Be baptized and believe and ye receive Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_5.html - Acts 5:3 Don't lie to Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_5.html - Acts 5:9 Don't tempt the Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_5.html - Acts 5:32 The Holy Ghost is given to those that obey God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_6.html - Acts 6:10 Man will not be able to resist the Holy Spirit in you.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_7.html - Acts 7:51 Do not resist the Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_8.html - Acts 8:15 You can pray for someone to receive the Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_8.html - Acts 8:16-19 You can lay hands on someone to receive the Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_8.html - Acts 8:29 The Holy Ghost speaks to instruct you.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_10.html - Acts 10:19 The Holy Ghost can inform you of coming events.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_10.html - Acts 10:44 Holy Spirit can enter people from hearing gospel.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_11.html - Acts 11:28 Prophecy can be predicted by Holy Ghost thru you.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_13.html - Acts 13:4 You can be sent places by Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_20.html - Acts 20:23 Holy Spirit warns you.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/acts_20.html - Acts 20:28 Holy Spirit appoints positions.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/romans_5.html - Rom. 5:5 Love of God is shed in our hearts by Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/romans_8.html - Rom. 8:14 Those led by Spirit of God are Sons of God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/romans_8.html - Rom. 8:16 The Holy Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/romans_8.html - Rom. 8:26 The Holy Spirit helps our infirmities and makes intercession for us in prayer.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/romans_15.html - Rom. 15:19 Miracles are done by power of Spirit of God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/1_corinthians_2.html - 1Cor. 2:10 The Holy Spirit searches the deep things of God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/1_corinthians_3.html - 1Cor. 3:16,6:19 You are temple of God and Holy Ghost lives in you.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/1_corinthians_12.html - 1Cor. 12:3 You can only say Jesus is Lord by Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/1_corinthians_12.html - 1Cor. 12:7 Holy Spirit is given to every man for his purpose.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/2_corinthians_1.html - 2Cor. 1:21-22 God put His Spirit in our heart.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/2_corinthians_3.html - 2Cor. 3:6 Letter kills, Spirit of God gives life.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/2_corinthians_13.html - 2Cor. 13:14 Communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/galatians_3.html - Gal. 3:2 Ye receive Holy Spirit by hearing and faith.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/galatians_4.html - Gal. 4:6 God sent the Spirit of His Son into your hearts.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/galatians_5.html - Gal. 5:18 If ye are led by Holy Spirit, you are not under law.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/galatians_5.html - Gal. 5:22 Fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentle, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/ephesians_3.html - Eph. 3:16 Holy Spirit is put in inner man.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/ephesians_4.html - Eph. 4:30 Grieve not the Holy Spirit.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/ephesians_6.html - Eph. 6:17 The sword of the Holy Spirit is the Word of God.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/philippians_1.html - Php. 1:19 Spirit of Jesus Christ.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/philippians_2.html - Php. 2:1 Have fellowship with Holy Ghost.

http://www.christianityoasis.com/Bible/BIBLE/john_14.html - John 14:26 Holy Spirit teaches all things, and reminds you of things taught by Jesus.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 05 July 2010 at 12:27am

To JOUBERAR

Suppose if Holy Spirit is God then it contradicts with Matthew 11:27 and Matthew 24:36 which teach that Holy Spirit can be God.So please JOUBEAR produce your response to Matthew 24:36 and Matthew 11:27.

Here is another verse which clearly teaches that Holy Spirit is not God.

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Here we notice that Father is called THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

Question for JOUBERAR:How is it possible for the Father to be the ONLY true God,while at the same time Holy Spirit is also God as well?If the Holy Spirit is also God as well then it is false to say that Father is the ONLY true God.If we say that the Father is the ONLY true God then we cannot say that any else (e.g Holy Spirit) is God as well.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 July 2010 at 10:06pm

Jouberar,
what you said simply then confirms the contradictory statements, beside many other things, concerning holy spirit. I showed you that the holy spirit obeys and is under God, while you insist holy spirit is equal to God, even God. Those two ideas come from the same book, the Bible, so what is the bottom line: The Bible contradict on the status of Holy spirit.
Also a question, God is Holy, right?
And according to the Bible, God is spirit, right?
(John 4:23 (King James Version)

²³But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.)

So, God is Holy Spirit, so now you have two holy spirits?

what a mess for you, you see one lie or mistake leads to many lies and mistakes. You can keep on the crocked way or follow what is made clear.

God is One, period.

Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 6:26am

Mansoor_ali wrote:

To JOUBERAR

Suppose if Holy Spirit is God then it contradicts with Matthew 11:27 and Matthew 24:36 which teach that Holy Spirit can be God.So please JOUBEAR produce your response to Matthew 24:36 and Matthew 11:27.

Here is another verse which clearly teaches that Holy Spirit is not God.

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Here we notice that Father is called THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

Question for JOUBERAR:How is it possible for the Father to be the ONLY true God,while at the same time Holy Spirit is also God as well?If the Holy Spirit is also God as well then it is false to say that Father is the ONLY true God.If we say that the Father is the ONLY true God then we cannot say that any else (e.g Holy Spirit) is God as well.

My friend can you think intellectually with any sense of intelligence or what do you think that God is He is the Holy spirit or shal I say His spirit is the Holiest spirit God is Spirit so why can't you say God is not the holy Spirit and the Holy spirit is not God as well then what is the Holy spirit then, then God must have a physical body no ways God was and is the HOLY SPIRIT EVEN BEFORE CREATION STARTED A T ALL ,Mat 11 and 24 is no indication of the denial that God is the Holy Spirit so how can it be false.

Mat 11:27 All things have been given to me by my Father; and no one has knowledge of the Son, but the Father; and no one has knowledge of the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will make it clear

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 09 July 2010 at 6:59am

honeto wrote:

Jouberar,
what you said simply then confirms the contradictory statements, beside many other things, concerning holy spirit. I showed you that the holy spirit obeys and is under God, while you insist holy spirit is equal to God, even God. Those two ideas come from the same book, the Bible, so what is the bottom line: The Bible contradict on the status of Holy spirit.
Also a question, God is Holy, right?
And according to the Bible, God is spirit, right?
(John 4:23 (King James Version)

²³But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.)

So, God is Holy Spirit, so now you have two holy spirits?

what a mess for you, you see one lie or mistake leads to many lies and mistakes. You can keep on the crocked way or follow what is made clear.

God is One, period.

Hasan

What is the fuss about so think I said God have two spirit no you do not understand God = Holy spirit one and the same God we can not say the Holy Spirit is his advisor who give him advise God does not need anyones advise, He speaks and we must listen to advise.

As you can see salvation comes from the jews and not from any arab named Muhammad who called himself a prophet.

Joh 4:22 You give worship, but without knowledge of what you are worshipping: we give worship to what we have knowledge of: for salvation comes from the Jews.

Joh 4:23 But the time is coming, and is even now here, when the true worshippers will give worship to the Father in the true way of the spirit, for these are the worshippers desired by the Father.

Joh 4:24 God is Spirit: then let his worshippers give him worship in the true way of the spirit.

Joh 4:25 The woman said to him, I am certain that the Messiah, who is named Christ, is coming; when he comes he will make all things clear to us.

I hope this is clear enough for you.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 6:09pm

Jouberar,
do I hear you mumble?
you are unable to answer the two spirits issue you brought up.
Let me recap it for you:
You said there are three parts of God: God the Father, God the holy ghost, God the son. And you said they are equal in power.
I showed you with the help of Biblical quotes that the Holy Ghost and God the son serve and are subject to God the Father, thus not equal to the "God the Father". That was the first thing, if you still did not get it, let me know, and I will walk this over with you a thousand times if needed.
Second was an interesting issue about God the Father, and God the holy ghost. It is obvious that the holy ghost is "spirit" while I see according to the Bible God the Father is also spirit, which is evident in some verses in the Bible. Now that makes the two of them Spirits. So you have God (Father)a Holy spirit, then you have God, the Holy spirit a holy spirit. So now you have, beside the god the son two Holy spirits?
Interesting is the fact that both the holy spirit, and the son serve and are subject to God the Father, according to the Bible and that proves you understanding that the three are equal in power.
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 04 September 2010 at 9:15am

honeto wrote:

Jouberar,
do I hear you mumble?
you are unable to answer the two spirits issue you brought up.
Let me recap it for you:
You said there are three parts of God: God the Father, God the holy ghost, God the son. And you said they are equal in power.
I showed you with the help of Biblical quotes that the Holy Ghost and God the son serve and are subject to God the Father, thus not equal to the "God the Father". That was the first thing, if you still did not get it, let me know, and I will walk this over with you a thousand times if needed.
Second was an interesting issue about God the Father, and God the holy ghost. It is obvious that the holy ghost is "spirit" while I see according to the Bible God the Father is also spirit, which is evident in some verses in the Bible. Now that makes the two of them Spirits. So you have God (Father)a Holy spirit, then you have God, the Holy spirit a holy spirit. So now you have, beside the god the son two Holy spirits?
Interesting is the fact that both the holy spirit, and the son serve and are subject to God the Father, according to the Bible and that proves you understanding that the three are equal in power.
Hasan

In the Christian Trinity it is the members (Yahweh [Father], Jesus [Son - Isa], Paraclete [Holy Ghost] ) very differences that are seen as motivation for them to create. There is no similar motivation to be seen in the singular being termed Allah. In the Trinity the form of the existence of one is not the form of the existence of the others. The creation of subordinate intellectual beings gives reason for trinitarian unity (oneness) and also purpose relating to each individual's form of existence.

The concept "Allah," the Muslim idea of a single being they consider "god" with supposed eternal existence, portrays only an unmotivated and undifferentiated being. The multiplicity of gods of the ancient pagan Romans illustrates the recognition of a need for motivational variables in relation to creation. In this sense the Roman's concept, relating to creation, is superior to that of Islam. It is understood that Mohammed was disgusted with the numerous idols that were being worshiped and eliminated all but the central stone god (the black broken stone now held together by a silver framework). It seems to have been considered as the chief god of three-hundred and sixty lesser stone gods that then surrounded it. The stone of focus is located in the Ka �bah in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.

Picture the purported being of Mohammed's construct known as Allah. It is a presumed creator but was not created and was without having any cause or reason to think, to develop ideas, to use language. Nor did it have availability of images or beings to reflect upon in order to have or develop thought processes. In other words Mohammed's Allah represents the concept of existing blankness, an empty intellect.

Practically speaking, Allah can only be a fabrication of man's imagination. Allah is a human construct that serves humanistic purposes. The concept Allah should be seen as a totally unmotivated existence without purpose or need for using reason; a being without impetus to create. Allah is an imaginary construct, not a reality. It is a construct in part formulated by using Judeo-Christian teachings (Scriptures) derived within Mohammed's imagination in association with his wife who financially provided for him. Mohammed's first and only true wife was a Catholic-Christian (who highly venerated the "Blessed Virgin Mary"). The only form of Christian of that place and time frame.

The singular form "Allah," having an unmotivated form of existence, has no reason to create as there would be no awareness of other possibilities for existence. NOTE: Hindu, Buddhist, and other pagan forms of worship constructed for various reasons (rain, protection, aggression) have their origin in the minds of men. These gods were created to serve man's needs but in effect have only served the purpose of acknowledging a supreme pre existence; an existence that is commonly recognized as both primary and necessary.

Buddhists, Hindus, and other religious forms are aberrations founded upon man's need for a god. Islam is little more than Mohammed's pagan self-serving power play organized to unify pagan worshippers while having them focus upon a central place marked by an identifying stone (perhaps a meteorite).

The antiChrist, Mohammed, a conniving illiterate, perversely removed what he saw as difficulties found in Christianity with its defining characteristics and personal freedoms. He objected to the Christian ethic of monogamy. Mohammed preferred polygamy and what today would be called pedophilia.

Among the aberrations found in Islam is that the Koran recognizes Jesus as a great prophet but rejects His teachings. It acknowledges Abraham as an ancestor but denies the content of the books that established the history relating to Abraham, the Biblical books. The Koran acknowledges the mother of Jesus to be the greatest of all women (a concept strongly held by his only true wife, a Catholic). She is respected throughout Islam even above the favored daughter of Mohammed, Fatima. Mohammed, a pagan polygamist at heart, had as his first wife (his only moral wife) a Catholic-Christian.

The central point of worship for Islam is the spot marked by the sacred black stone honored in the Kaaba (decorated small stone building) in the court of the great mosque of Mecca towards which all loyal Muslims turn to in prayer from all parts of the world. In will be interesting to see the direction towards which they pray if and when Muslims travel out into the universe and are on a spinning planet �possibly in another galaxy� at some future time. (Islamic focus is on praying toward a location rather than upon praying to a universally existing supreme being.) The stone of the great Kaaba was or at least it represented the major god worshiped by a multitude of lesser pagan gods. It would have been considered the local high pagan god. The lesser concepts of gods were removed (disposed of) at the direction of Mohammed.

God, The Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, functions in such complete harmony that they serve as one unified being even though they are individuals with distinct existence while having different though intermingled goals or desires to be fulfilled. The goals of each serve the goals of the others which cannot be obtained independently or in disharmony.

Muslims must understand now and very fast that Allah thier so called god and Muhammad thier false prophet is and was realy and truely a very false and they the muslims must became conscious and think clearly for themselfs and believing that Allah was just Muhammad's imagination to steer guide his clan of gangs to gave them moral support to make them believe that they gonna receive a so called reward of Paridise when they die so why should Muhammad care they gonna die in any way the sooner the better.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 05 September 2010 at 7:53pm

JOUBERAR wrote:

To JOUBERAR

The above article may be copied from this http://www.trosch.org/bks/islm/allah_false_god.html - source .

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 05 September 2010 at 7:55pm

JOUBERAR wrote:

The above article is http://www.trosch.org/bks/islm/allah_false_god.html - copied from this source .

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 07 September 2010 at 5:34pm

Mansoor_ali wrote:

JOUBERAR wrote:

The above article is http://www.trosch.org/bks/islm/allah_false_god.html - copied from this source .

What is the is the ods it still stay the the truth if I typed it or coppied it still show that every where is an indicator a beholder to show that Islams directions is wrong and false so by the way nobody complained about when I copied from Quran so you can complained whenever and what ever that wont chance my aproach towards Islam so if you are blinded by the light you have dwelt to long in darkness my friend the light exposed all kinds of evil that is happening in the so called most peace full religion in the world.

It is nice that you found this site then you must read this site also if not then go and read,Why I left Islam website this is a real eye and ear opener for hard headed muslims who only believe what a single so called Prophet have said and rejecting everything what the real Prophets God have said.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 September 2010 at 9:14pm

Jouberar,

shame on you for covering up the truth by writing a long post with filth of your mind. You don't have a believe, you don't even believe that you will ever give account of your lies and filth that feeds in your brain. Regardless of your disbelief, you will be draged to justice one day. You don;t have a firm believe in even what you believe and that's why you have to put other's belief down to feel elevated. Shame on such a trick you play, pittyful that you don't even trust that what you belive can be convincing to others without lies about others and by throughing dust in others eyes. What a looser.

We in Islam worship our Creator, the only one who should be worshiped. The One who is not born, nor He dies. The One who does not have parents, nor off springs, the One and Only, there is none like Him. Is there anything clearer or better than that? I challenge you. And don't you ever lie again if you desire some hope and future for yourself.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 08 September 2010 at 3:56pm

honeto wrote:

Jouberar,

Hasan

Why should I be ashamed of myself I am not living a lie pretending that I am worshiping a Creator the only one that should be worshipped.

Please do not tell God have no off springs how do you know every born again Christian is God's off spring this just show how little muslims know about God and then pretend to be the only so called followers of a fake God of Muhammad.

I trust in what I believe.

If you believe in Muhammad then it is your case.

One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad�s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their �right hand possessions� (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified.

Do you still believe in what your so called prophet said.

I wonder who had a believe in Islam by telling all the lies to muslims like Abraham had sacrifice Ishmael instead of Isaac and keep saying the Quran is so pure and the Bible is corrupt.

If you choose the wrong of Islam then you walk the walk and talk talk that is your choice if you are wrong you are wrong and only you can changed that and I am telling you without any fear and any sorrow in my heart that Islam was and still is a false religion and I know it for sure even if I were borned a muslim, I would still tell that it is lie and I will have no regrets about what I say about anything in this world that is false and wrong it is my duty and your duty point out all the false and wrong doings especially in the most perfect religions of the world who pretend to be from God.

Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 08 September 2010 at 4:02pm

To Hasan

Why Quran is not from God:

Muhammad produced no miracles and when pressed he claimed that his miracle is the Quran. Yet a cursory look at the Quran reveals that this book is full of errors. Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. It is badly compiled and it contradicts itself. There is nothing intelligent in this book let alone miraculous. Muhammad challenged people to produce a �Surah like it� or find an error therein, yet Muslims would kill anyone who dares to criticize it. In such a climate of hypocrisy and violence truth is the first casualty.

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 09 September 2010 at 12:56pm

To JOUBERAR

Why Bible is not from God:

1.Written by mysterious men.

2.Written by an unknown number of men

3.Written in unknown places

4.Written in unknown dates.