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when the blame game stops

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Topic: when the blame game stops
Posted By: Yusuf.
Subject: when the blame game stops
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 5:53pm
By PARVEZ AHMED, The Press-Enterprise, July 14, 2005
mailto:publicrelatio[email protected] - http://www.pe.com/localnews/opinion/syndicated/stories/PE_Op Ed_Opinion_D_op_15_cair.1f67cc9.html

Following the bomb blasts in London last week, British Prime Minister Tony Blair said, "The vast and overwhelming majority of Muslims both here and abroad are decent and law-abiding people who abhor this kind of terrorism every bit as much as we do."

Even Deputy Assistant Police Commissioner Brian Paddick said that "Islam and terrorism do not go together."

Despite these sentiments, terrorism committed by Muslims is commonly referred to as "Islamic terrorism." This is a misnomer, as British writer Karen Armstrong points out in The Guardian newspaper, when she notes that acts of terrorism by the Irish Republican Army are not referred to as "Catholic terrorism."

Following the bombings in London, every major Muslim group in America and abroad issued clear condemnations. "We join Americans of all faiths, and all people of conscience worldwide, in condemning these barbaric crimes," declared the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)."

"Attacking civilians who are going about their daily business is a criminal act that violates Islamic principles and must be condemned by all Muslims," was the response from the Islamic Society of North America.

The attacks also drew rebuke from senior officials in several Muslim countries.

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad said, "On behalf of the Syrian people and myself, we denounce these awful actions." Abdulmohsen al-Akkas, Saudi Arabia's social affairs minister, called the bombings "a heinous act." Officials in Iraq, Iran, Egypt and Morocco also decried the attacks.

Misperception about Islam's position against terrorism is making an already jittery American public even more suspicious. More importantly, it is also preventing meaningful dialogue between American Muslims and policy makers.

This important step cannot be achieved as long as the American public remains misinformed about Islam in general and Muslim positions related to terrorism in particular.

Only when the blame game stops can meaningful dialogue begin. American Muslims should make it their mission to build bridges of understanding between America and the Muslim world. This can happen when mainstream American Muslim groups are constructively engaged by policy- and opinion-makers.

Parvez Ahmed, Ph.D., is board chairman of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the nation's largest Muslim civil rights and advocacy


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Yusuf



Replies:
Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 17 July 2005 at 2:45am
The blame game will have to stop on the Muslim side as well. We've all heard classics like: "Blame it on the west", "blame it on Iraq", "blame it on capitalism"...etc, etc. It cuts both ways.


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 17 July 2005 at 3:13am

Bismillah

It will stop on the Muslim side as long as it does not begin elsewhere.



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 17 July 2005 at 4:13am
Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

Bismillah

It will stop on the Muslim side as long as it does not begin elsewhere.

That is good. Incidently Mockba, since the London bombings the government and police have been falling over themselves to make it clear that blame should not be apportioned to the wider British Muslim community. The British public are on the whole, fair minded and tolerant people. We endured 30 years of bombings at the hands of the IRA, and I can honestly say that during this time I never met one single person who blamed ordinary members of the Irish population.



Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 17 July 2005 at 2:31pm

Originally posted by Colin Colin wrote:

The blame game will have to stop on the Muslim side as well. We've all heard classics like: "Blame it on the west", "blame it on Iraq", "blame it on capitalism"...etc, etc. It cuts both ways.

Agreed, Colin, and I have posted this opinion in other threads as well. 



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Yusuf


Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 2:22am
Originally posted by Yusuf. Yusuf. wrote:

Originally posted by Colin Colin wrote:

The blame game will have to stop on the Muslim side as well. We've all heard classics like: "Blame it on the west", "blame it on Iraq", "blame it on capitalism"...etc, etc. It cuts both ways.

Agreed, Colin, and I have posted this opinion in other threads as well. 

Yes indeed, Yusuf, I am aware of your stance on this issue.

 



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 2:55am
This misperception of Islam will continue as long as Al-Quaeda continues to
murder innocents in the name of Islam and organizations such as CAIR
respond only with press releases.





-------------
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: Rezz
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 6:58am
Mockba, you said in another discussion

"Yes, Islam allows killing (not murder)... and at some instance (primarily concerning times of war) it encourages it."

We could have theological arguments to the end of time, but as long as Islam sanctions killing, Muslims will kill and justify it in accordance with their interpretation of the Koran.

The answer surely is that no man has the right to take another human's life, whatever the circumstances.

By the way, Yusuf and Colin, your points on the Blame Culture among Muslims are spot-on. Could it be that Islamic leaders actively encourage the Blame Culture to divert attention from their own shortcomings? Could Iran be a good example of this?









Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 10:19am

Originally posted by Rezz Rezz wrote:

Mockba, you said in another discussion

The answer surely is that no man has the right to take another human's life, whatever the circumstances.

Rezz, does you statement mean that you believe a person does not have the right to self defense?



-------------
Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

This misperception of Islam will continue as long as Al-Quaeda continues to
murder innocents in the name of Islam and organizations such as CAIR
respond only with press releases.



It's clear that there must be more than words in response to tragically, recklessly misguided Muslims (whether in Baghdad or London).  Islam, Muslims, must respond by opposing extremist rhetoric and teaching within her schools.  Islamic leaders and persons of influence must remove from positions of influence those imams and teachers that promote any such ideologies..hate and murder speech and acts MUST NOT be tolerated no matter who is doing it to whom.


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by Khadija1021 Khadija1021 wrote:

Originally posted by Rezz Rezz wrote:

Mockba, you said in another discussion

The answer surely is that no man has the right to take another human's life, whatever the circumstances.

Rezz, does you statement mean that you believe a person does not have the right to self defense?



How would you define self defense?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 8:06am

British public are about the best we could find in our world at any time. They just refuse to be fooled by any BS or spin while our American friends are forced to ask stupid questions like "How do you define self defense"?

It's an English expression. You should be able to translate it for us. I think, it means something like that when you are invaded or occupied then you should not just sit back for the pleasure of the Washington gang, but fight back as hard as possible - exactly like what's happening in Afghanistan and Eyerak.



Posted By: Rezz
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 11:34am


[/QUOTE]

Rezz, does you statement mean that you believe a person does not have the right to self defense?

[/QUOTE]

What is "self defence"?

If a man attacks my family or me with a stick can I be-head him with a sword?

How do I know for sure that I could not have saved myself or my family without killing the aggressor?

In English law we have concept of "Reasonable Force".

This prevent people from killing and claiming "Self Defence" as mitigation in Law.

Does Islam have an equivalent safe-guard?




Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 12:46pm

Originally posted by Rezz Rezz wrote:

What is "self defence"?

If a man attacks my family or me with a stick can I be-head him with a sword?

How do I know for sure that I could not have saved myself or my family without killing the aggressor?

In English law we have concept of "Reasonable Force".

This prevent people from killing and claiming "Self Defence" as mitigation in Law.

Does Islam have an equivalent safe-guard?


Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

British public are about the best we could find in our world at any time. They just refuse to be fooled by any BS or spin while our American friends are forced to ask stupid questions like "How do you define self defense"?

 

And, just to take attention off their flag.

 

It means that when you are attacked or occupied you fight back. That is self defense. Comprende?

 

 

Oops Whisper, I guess Rezz just proved you wrong on that one.  Or is there something uniquely different about an American who asks the same question as someone from the UK?  I�m sure you probably have one of your twisted little �justifications� stuck up your sleeve to help you keep your stanch opinion of Americans tightly under your foot.  But you aren�t a black/white thinker, right?  And you don�t hate Americans, right?

 

Rezz, I guess I will have to say that it depends on the circumstances around the situation of the man with the stick.  If you were all at a park trying to brake a Pi�ata and the man is blind folded with the stick in his hand and he is mistakenly swinging it at you/your family, I think cutting his head off with a sword would be a bit drastic, don�t you?  However, if he has broken into your house and is swinging a baseball bat at one of your children�s heads, I hope you would do something more than say, �Excuse me sir, you are swinging that in the wrong direction.�  Or, that you would not take the time to access the situation to see what would case the man the least amount of damage�unless you prefer to assess the damage to your child�s skull as well.  If someone came into my house and was swinging a bat at one of my children�s heads, I sure would feel justified in using a sword to stop him.  Actually, it would probably be a butcher knife since I don�t own a sword or a gun.  And, I probably would aim for a vital organ instead of trying to cut off his head.  That would be much easier for me (I�m short) and it would probably create far less of a messy.  It�s one thing to have to protect my family yet another to have to clean up the mess left hind�yuck!

 

Below is the definition for self-defense:

 

1.  Defense of oneself when physically attacked.

 

2.  Defense of what belongs to oneself, as one's works or reputation.

 

3.  Law The right to protect oneself against violence or threatened

violence with whatever force or means are reasonably necessary.

 

We also have laws in the US which are meant to keep a person from unjustly killing someone and then screaming �self-defense;� unfortunately, GWB doesn�t seem to believe those laws applies to him and his army�but then again, neither do the Blairs and Ben Ladens of this world.    

 

PAZ, Khadija

 



-------------
Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 7:44pm

Bismillah

Rezz, as with death punishment there are some strict conditions to be met before killing becomes acceptable.  

We can come up with volumes of definitions of "self-defence", "liberty", "freedom", "justice"... to suit everyone's stand. As far as killing is concerned, i am still puzzled as to how conveniently people refuse to see the worngdoing they commit upon others which occasionally hits them back.

We've heard of innocent Americans suffering from their President's phobias, we'ver heard of Londoners who are in no way related to Mr. Blair... however those very same people refuse to hear the message of Islam condemning suicide attacks? 

Where are you when your leaders mutilate humans with tons of explosives on countries far away... claiming to be looking for weapons they will never find. Why do you begin questioning killing only when it comes as a retaliation for slaughter? Why not pause for a moment and work harder to stop slaughter? Perchance it will stop killing.

 

 

  



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: Submit to Alah
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 6:16am
dd


Posted By: Rezz
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 6:40am

Mockba, you asked

�Were are you when your leaders mutilate humans with tons of explosives on countries far away... claiming to be looking for weapons they will never find. Why do you begin questioning killing only when it comes as a retaliation for slaughter? Why not pause for a moment and work harder to stop slaughter? Perchance it will stop killing.�


My reply

Where were we?

In London we had the biggest demonstration in our history AGAINST the war in Iraq! Almost two million ordinary men and women came together in London and said �not in our name!�

What make you think people who took part in those demonstrations �questioning killing� weren�t murdered by those despicable terrorists on7/7?

Were the poor souls who died in London somehow to blame for being killed?

Are you saying Islam supports collective punishment?

Those filthy cowards TARGETED unarmed, innocent civilians on their way to work for God's sake!

Would it be right now for me to go now into a Muslim neighbourhood in London and kill some Muslims? After all, it is a fact that that community could do much more to prevent its members committing terrorist acts? So they shouldn�t be surprised to be murdered, right?

I�m sorry Mockba, I�ve had a lot of respect for your points in other Posts but these "Monkey see, monkey do" arguments are ridiculous  and so typical of the Muslim community.
 
Finally, haven�t Muslims learned that committing acts like this only strengthen the resolve of the Right? Hasn�t failure in Israel taught you that?

All hope we had of persuading our government to get out of Iraq quickly vanished on 7/7.

 

***LONDON 7/7***

----------

***WE ARE NOT AFRAID***


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 6:47am

Khadija, b'fazle talla, I hold no reasons to hate anyone at all. I just don't follow Dip Low Messy. I am one hundered percent straight. I hold a very sharp and a straight sword for those who slip at the sight of straight simple questions.

Please read my posts with questions and then see how some posters dive out of these and start singing something totally irrelevant. Sadly, mostly these posters happen to be Americans in my three years experience of this site.

Why should I hate anyone, I had a very loving Full Time mother, plus I am not from a success oriented culture. I hail from a culture where contentment means more than the dollars in your paakket.



Posted By: rocitreal
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by Khadija1021 Khadija1021 wrote:

Originally posted by Rezz Rezz wrote:

Mockba, you said in another discussion

The answer surely is that no man has the right to take another human's life, whatever the circumstances.

Rezz, does you statement mean that you believe a person does not have the right to self defense?

I sure think so just ask the families of 911 what they think.  If Iraqi's want to fight american soldiers i feel they have that right, but non-Iraqi's invading the country have no more place there, they are not helping anyone.



-------------
Peace, its more than a word its a dream.


Posted By: rocitreal
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

British public are about the best we could find in our world at any time. They just refuse to be fooled by any BS or spin while our American friends are forced to ask stupid questions like "How do you define self defense"?

It's an English expression. You should be able to translate it for us. I think, it means something like that when you are invaded or occupied then you should not just sit back for the pleasure of the Washington gang, but fight back as hard as possible - exactly like what's happening in Afghanistan and Eyerak.

I dont think self defense is limited to an invasion or fight over the land.  If a gang sends someone to kill themselves and my familiy you better bet im going to find him and go after him where ever he is.



-------------
Peace, its more than a word its a dream.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

British public are about the best we could find in our world at any time. They just refuse to be fooled by any BS or spin while our American friends are forced to ask stupid questions like "How do you define self defense"?

B: First of all Sasha (Whisper), you have no right nor basis to call me a friend.  Your consistent personal barbs and insults are not those of a friend.  And so you are insincere in your language.  That is quite clear.  Since the topic pertains to homicide bombers and 'blame' it is fair to ask a question about what people perceive falls into the category of self defense.  That might also pertain to the theological and practical justifications of a homicide bomber.  Sasha, on what basis would you question the legitimacy of that by calling such a question 'stupid'?!

It's an English expression. You should be able to translate it for us. I think, it means something like that when you are invaded or occupied then you should not just sit back for the pleasure of the Washington gang, but fight back as hard as possible - exactly like what's happening in Afghanistan and Eyerak.

B: Does that include killing children and shooting people in the back - is that justified in your pet theorizations of 'self defense?'  Perhaps we should be a wee bit more vigorous in our definition of what is justified by what - or I suppose you may be able to spin out a justification for killing any ol' American, as an example, as self defense for their imputed (by you) 'stupidity'.  Am I far off?  So please tell us at what point, you would authorize the killing for self defense in Iraq - would it be after the elections or before?  Would it be after the Constitution is written or before?  Would it be only the Sunnis who would act in 'self defense' since it was they who lost the most from the ousting and liberation from the heinous mass murderer Saddam?  Which part of this constitutes self defense Sasha?  Do the Shia'as have a right to act in self defense against the Saddamist and Sunnis and terrorists who are wantonly killing them?  And also to decide (as the majority and in self defense) to allow the MNF to stay for a while longer so that more slaughter and civil war does not occur?

Please correct me where my pre-suppositions don't comport with your views, Sasha, and serve to further answer this 'stupid' question (as you called it.)







-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by Rezz Rezz wrote:

Mockba, you asked

Were are you when your leaders mutilate humans with tons of explosives on countries far away... claiming to be looking for weapons they will never find. Why do you begin questioning killing only when it comes as a retaliation for slaughter? Why not pause for a moment and work harder to stop slaughter? Perchance it will stop killing.

My reply

Where were we?

In London we had the biggest demonstration in our history AGAINST the war in Iraq! Almost two million ordinary men and women came together in London and said �not in our name!

What make you think people who took part in those demonstrations �questioning killing� weren�t murdered by those despicable terrorists on7/7?

Were the poor souls who died in London somehow to blame for being killed?
Aree you saying Islam supports collective punishment?

Those filthy cowards TARGETED unarmed, innocent civilians on their way to work for God's sake!
Would it be right now for me to go now into a Muslim neighbourhood in London and kill some Muslims? After all, it is a fact that that community could do much more to prevent its members committing terrorist acts? So they shouldn�t be surprised to be murdered, right?

I�m sorry Mockba, I�ve had a lot of respect for your points in other Posts but these "Monkey see, monkey do" arguments are ridiculous  and so typical of the Muslim community.

Finally, haven�t Muslims learned that committing acts like this only strengthen the resolve of the Right? Hasn�t failure in Israel taught you that?

All hope we had of persuading our government to get out of Iraq quickly vanished on 7/7.

The problem is that when western governments drop bombs  - the opposing public think it sufficient to wave flags of protest and dance to the music of some anti-war charity pop-show... nevermind that the killing continues. They do the same when they see off their military youth leaving their families behind in order to kill someone else's.

When the vicitms of those bombings retaliate (please note that we are not discussing Islam here that Blair is coveniently associating in his campaign) you demand action... you are not satisifed with official statements, you want everything mended, you want every muslim newborn to have a GPS tracking microchip implant and have them monitored 24/7. 

The filthy cowards are our leaders today. They sit, behind state-of the art security systems, remote control in hand, playing their War In Iraq reality-games... yet having nightmares of possible retaliation. 

The filthy cowards are suicide bombers who having been inspired by those very murderous leaders decide to go on the extreme by committing horror.

The filthy cowards are us, who watch nations bleed to death and instead of ending horror, we search for excuses to approve and let continue... 

Failure in Israel, as well as failure in Iraq, and entire region is failure of Arab leaders who have prostituted themselves... that's what today's leadership is all about, anyway. 

This is an unjust war and i dont think any explanations will be found.  I regret however that you are "attributing monkey see moneky do" comments to Muslims. You should have attributed these comments to Bush and Blair prior to their invasion of the world and worldviews...

I have not touched on the stand of Islam in this post, therefore it will be appreciated if you could abstain from wrongful generalisation.

 



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MOCKBA


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

The problem is that when western governments drop bombs  - the opposing public think it sufficient to wave flags of protest and dance to the music of some anti-war charity pop-show... nevermind that the killing continues. They do the same when they see off their military youth leaving their families behind in order to kill someone else's.

B: Do you believe in any case of 'just war' or 'just jihad?'

When the vicitms of those bombings retaliate (please note that we are not discussing Islam here that Blair is coveniently associating in his campaign) you demand action...

B: What are you calling 'retaliation'?  Mockba, why don't we trace actual events rather than putting out generalizations?  Are you talking about the bombing of Kandahar in 2001 after AQ slaughtered 3000 innocents in one hour?

Failure in Israel, as well as failure in Iraq, and entire region is failure of Arab leaders who have prostituted themselves... that's what today's leadership is all about, anyway. 

This is an unjust war and i dont think any explanations will be found.  I regret however that you are "attributing monkey see moneky do" comments to Muslims. You should have attributed these comments to Bush and Blair prior to their invasion of the world and worldviews...

I have not touched on the stand of Islam in this post, therefore it will be appreciated if you could abstain from wrongful generalisation.

B: This allows for a difficult question.  If Islam is the greatest religion, the final expression of God, if it is so powerful, why is all this happening?  Why is Allah/God allowing this to happen?



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 1:39am

Bismillah

A retaliation, even if it is for an american military boot stepping on the territory of another country, for pointing a gun at an unarmed person and pressing dirty boot against his face to secure him,... there are too many specific instances to retaliate for. (Now don't just go and spin it into "MOCKBA supporting terrorists and approving bombing of London"). You can never stop tracing back the date of who started it first? However, September 11 is not beginning of era to me, as it is to some.

As far as your difficult question is concerned. I personally believe that this is all happening primarily as a result of Islam not being reflected in action by Muslims. The leaders have traded Islam for royal thrones, and people have allowed themselves tricked into supporting such move and praising their Kings and Idols. Once people distance themselves from God's commands their destruction (moral, physical, spiritual etc.) is only a matter of time.

As far as "just jihad" is concerned, your question is not very clear. I believe in Allah, and if He prescribes jihad, whether reflected in seeking knowledge, restraining myself from evil deeds, earning a living or taking action to protect my family and brethren then i try to obey to the best of my ability. Jihad cannot be unjust... therefore using "just" as an additional emphasis is unnecessary. I undertsand you have launched a separate thread on the subject and there were some very good responses to your enquiry.   



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MOCKBA


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 2:09am

First of all this is when the blame game stops not a homicide bombers topic!

Okay, just tell me what would you call someone persistently distorting the established universal truths, slipping away from even some simple points at hand and making up with quantity of words what's lacking in substance?

It's not my fault that your lengthy, slippery phrases seem to run futile, almost like a Lincoln Mk VIII out of gas! Just watch your response to Mockba. He hasn't mentioned God, Allah or the religion at all in his post. But you can not help but provoke in a vulgar fashion for some reason best known only to yourself.

You give tis forum the right to attribute your behaviour to some sort of a serious disorder. Without your kind help we would just be lost.

Now, it's a simple fact that even if all the Americans begin to sing any Songs of Praise in honour of this Goddess of Elections together, in perfect unison and at the top of their voices, she will always stay a mere hogwash and a much bigger fiction than even that WMDs story.

Your Goddess will rise in the glory you desire for her ONLY & WHEN Eyerakis begin to worship her. This hogwash is suitable only for the US home market. And, only some utter fool would attempt to export it to the rest of the world as it stands today.

I have been kind to you. I know you are young, just a bit fresh, with a newly acquired arsenal of a few Latin terms. That's the only reason that so far I have not once called you what you actually are.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

Bismillah

A retaliation, even if it is for an american military boot stepping on the territory of another country, for pointing a gun at an unarmed person and pressing dirty boot against his face to secure him,... there are too many specific instances to retaliate for. (Now don't just go and spin it into "MOCKBA supporting terrorists and approving bombing of London"). You can never stop tracing back the date of who started it first? However, September 11 is not beginning of era to me, as it is to some.

B: Mockba, this is a fair observation about the era going back further than 9/11 and also about wondering who started what.  Yes, this does add significantly to the complexity of what we're dealing with, making it harder to understand and more difficult to be dogmatic (for example to say "US EVIL" or to say "ISLAM EVIL."  In fact understanding, grace and forgiveness needs to happen on massive scales between Muslims and non-Muslims if we're ever to move on and up from here into anything resembling lasting peace..

As far as your difficult question is concerned. I personally believe that this is all happening primarily as a result of Islam not being reflected in action by Muslims. The leaders have traded Islam for royal thrones, and people have allowed themselves tricked into supporting such move and praising their Kings and Idols. Once people distance themselves from God's commands their destruction (moral, physical, spiritual etc.) is only a matter of time.

As far as "just jihad" is concerned, your question is not very clear. I believe in Allah, and if He prescribes jihad, whether reflected in seeking knowledge, restraining myself from evil deeds, earning a living or taking action to protect my family and brethren then i try to obey to the best of my ability. Jihad cannot be unjust... therefore using "just" as an additional emphasis is unnecessary. I undertsand you have launched a separate thread on the subject and there were some very good responses to your enquiry.  

B: Once again, very interesting comments.  Thanks for taking the time to elaborate.  Some questions: How do you, as a Muslim, personally know when Allah is 'prescribing' jihad?   What do you think about AQ co-opting Islam for their own purposes, or the regimes you spoke of - is jihad required against them too?  How will it look, how will it come about, how will Allah make it clear to you?  have you ever personally been involved in a jihad and do you anticipate being involved in a jihad?

Again, May the Great God bless and keep you and your family in peace..



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

First of all this is when the blame game stops not a homicide bombers topic!

B: the first line of the first post of this post is: "Following the bomb blasts in London last week" which is Sasha, as you know, referring to the homocide bombers in London.  What are you complaining about?

Okay, just tell me what would you call someone persistently distorting the established universal truths, slipping away from even some simple points at hand....

B: Sasha.

Oh and you forgot to metion your racist generalizations against Americans...

Just watch your response to Mockba. He hasn't mentioned God, Allah or the religion at all in his post.

B: You wish to control what another says...specifically what I say.  Sorry Sasha, not your right to do so..no matter how many times you egregiously protest that I am 'stupid'.

You give tis forum the right to attribute your behaviour to some sort of a serious disorder.

B: Of course Sasha, we couldn't expect you to make your points on their merits..  Other of Sasha's deleterious insults:

  • ...mere hogwash
  • This hogwash is suitable only for the US
  • some utter fool

I have been kind to you. I know you are young, just a bit fresh, with a newly acquired arsenal of a few Latin terms. That's the only reason that so far I have not once called you what you actually are.

B: The racist Sasha utters his insults from afar [he calls Americans (no distinctions or exceptions given) 'stupid' 'fools'  and mocks them as having a difficult time thinking] ..be brave Sasha and actually make a point..



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

Just watch your response to Mockba. He hasn't mentioned God, Allah or the religion at all in his post.  But you can not help but provoke in a vulgar fashion for some reason best known only to yourself.


When speaking of Muslims you of necessity refer to (even if not directly) Islam and Allah.  Is that not so?  What are you saying, people must think and post according to your rules Sasha?  How silly..


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 4:37pm
No, people must follow simple decent protocol. When they fail to they earn some other titles, which they then cry about in their posts.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

No, people must follow simple decent protocol.

B: Are you looking in the mirror while posting this?

When they fail to they earn some other titles, which they then cry about in their posts.

B: This is how you justify calling people 'fools' and 'stupid' and calling entire nations (of 300 million people no less!) those things - when things don't go according to 'Sasha's protocol?'





-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 6:13am

Bruce, please, read all your above posts. You have not dealt with one of the straight points posed by anyone not just me. It's not just mine or, Michael Moore's opinion that the Americans lack the ability to think.

Come to Spain. Okay, I agree on England. We will go to a nice bar, sit in some corner with a good Rioja and just listen to the people talking. Don't get angry at me. No need to bark at the wrong tree. Ask some Rumsfeld, Chenny or an odd Bush what they have done to your country or that nice image of an average decent American?

I will talk to you differently the moment you begin to answer simple questions instead of diving into some Einsteinish theses.



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

Come to Spain. Okay, I agree on England. We will go to a nice bar,



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

Bruce, please, read all your above posts. You have not dealt with one of the straight points posed by anyone not just me...I will talk to you differently the moment you begin to answer simple questions...

B: What?   Uh, Sasha, please read the past two weeks of your posts at this site and observe how you obfuscate...then get back to me and maybe then I'll show you common courtesy  - thanks..(of course I'm being facetious)

Naw, Sasha, I'll start with the common courtesy - you can do what you need to do...

Are you suggesting I'm not answering questions?  That's just not true..Please show me one post on this string where you've asked a question I've not answered. 

And even if it were true, since when is it up to me to answer questions as a condition for you to give common courtesy?  Hmmm..

It's not just mine or, Michael Moore's opinion that the Americans lack the ability to think.

B: Oh really?  Well, you put yourself in the company of Moore on that one.  That says something right there.  Who else would you put in support of this apparently hallowed opinion of Americans (all 300 million of us), or as you might be want to say, this 'classically accepted truth?'  Bull puckey!  Is Moore your ace in the hole on that point you've been drumming for the last two weeks? 

Come to Spain. Okay, I agree on England. We will go to a nice bar, sit in some corner with a good Rioja and just listen to the people talking. Don't get angry at me. No need to bark at the wrong tree. Ask some Rumsfeld, Chenny or an odd Bush what they have done to your country

B: This can be helpful - just listening to people talk and discuss...it's important.  One of the reasons I frequent these chat discussion sites also..

or that nice image of an average decent American?

B: I didn't think you thought there was such a creature...not according to all the insults you've plastered our way...just melodramatic hyperbole?  Well, why didn't you say as much?

I will talk to you differently the moment you begin to answer simple questions instead of diving into some Einsteinish theses.

B: Wait a second, last week I was 'stupid' and 'foolish' and this week I'm diving into Einstinish theses..which is it?  You're all over the ice Sasha...

May God bless you and your family..



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by Khadija1021 Khadija1021 wrote:

We also have laws in the US which are meant to keep a person from unjustly killing someone and then screaming �self-defense;� unfortunately, GWB doesn�t seem to believe those laws applies to him and his army�but then again, neither do the Blairs and Ben Ladens of this world. 


Do you seriously want to put Blair and Bush in the same lump as Bin Laden?  Seriously?  As long as that's the case we're going to have a non-starter here...we'll have to agree to disagree - vociferously..


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 23 July 2005 at 3:03pm

May God bless you and your family.

Thanks a lot. It�s now established that you don�t hold a single point in your entire arsenal. You are here with us only to score some. Good luck. I have no time for such mere wordsmiths.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

May God bless you and your family.

Thanks a lot. It�s now established that you don�t hold a single point in your entire arsenal. You are here with us only to score some. Good luck. I have no time for such mere wordsmiths.



Sasha, the logical posters on this board have no time for your racism..as to wordsmithing, words and their use have consequences...not something to be treated blithely - like labeling entire races and nations...hmm..

To get respect you must show respect...it's funny how you've accused me of avoiding questions and haven't come up with one example of where I've done so...oh but that's right, you're too busy throwing racial epithets at 'Americans' - all 300 million of 'em.

Of course you can mock my faith if you wish...that is your choice...it's pretty consistent with your other mockeries.


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 11:07am

Thanks a lot. It�s now established that you don�t hold a single point in your entire arsenal. You are here with us only to score some. Good luck. I have no time for such mere wordsmiths.

Sasha, the logical posters on this board have no time for your racism.

I can see you have conducted an opinion poll of both the logical posters on this site, you and your wishful thinking.

 

How can it be �racism� to inform someone that he is just out to score a few points?

 

as to wordsmithing, words and their use have consequences...

I agree with you one hundred percent. That�s why some people turn into full time wordsmiths.

 

Of course you can mock my faith if you wish...

For heaven�s sake, when and how did I mock your faith? I have never in my entire life mocked anyone leave aside their faiths.

 

it's pretty consistent with your other mockeries.

I never mock. I have simply stated in very polite way that you have failed to produce a point. What do you want me to say?

Do you just want me to agree with you that the Palestinian torture or refusal of Kashmiri Self Determination is fathered just by some Imam's imagination or sermons?



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

How can it be �racism� to inform someone that he is just out to score a few points?
B: That's not at all what I've said Sasha.  I've said you're racist because you call an entire race 'stupid' - which you've done on numerous occasions.

 

as to wordsmithing, words and their use have consequences...

I agree with you one hundred percent. That�s why some people turn into full time wordsmiths.
B: And your point is?

 

Of course you can mock my faith if you wish...

For heaven�s sake, when and how did I mock your faith? I have never in my entire life mocked anyone leave aside their faiths.
B: Look at your post re-posted below and tell me that's not a mockery of my sincere blessing:

================
Posted: July 23 2005 at 3:03pm | IP Logged

Bruce: May God bless you and your family.

Sasha Whisper: Thanks a lot. It�s now established that you don�t hold a single point in your entire arsenal. You are here with us only to score some. Good luck. I have no time for such mere wordsmiths.

==================

 

it's pretty consistent with your other mockeries.

I never mock. I have simply stated in very polite way that you have failed to produce a point. What do you want me to say?
B: I think we'll leave it up to others to determine how much respect and or mockery you give to others...if your racism is any indication, then you are well versed in mockery..

Do you just want me to agree with you that the Palestinian torture or refusal of Kashmiri Self Determination is fathered just by some Imam's imagination or sermons?
B: I want you to admit that complexity of intentions and motivations would absolutely involve certain imams teachings, radical teachings, in the underpinning of terror murders inexcusable by any reason for any 'cause.'  As to the Palestinian situation and Kashmire I have said in a recent post:
"
I think Palestinians have gotten a raw deal - and so have tons of other people groups..."



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 4:51pm

Yes who won't agree that certain imams do play a part. BUT your emphasis just on teachings and underpinnings and all that is just way out. It's not in tune with the actual situation. It will help the Americans more the day they take responsibility of their contribution to global terrorism.

Plus, just wait and watch the fallacy of winning the War on Terrorism.

I have seen your posts on London bombings. The British public know it's linked to Tony's part in your wars. Even if you keep shouting your favourite imbalanced lines for the rest of your life, the Brits are not going to change their minds about this matter. They didn't when your president was spinning some lies with all the resources of the US government.

Good luck with your spins.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

Yes who won't agree that certain imams do play a part. BUT your emphasis just on teachings and underpinnings and all that is just way out.

B: Huh?  How are the imams different from the imams' teachings?

It's not in tune with the actual situation. It will help the Americans more the day they take responsibility of their contribution to global terrorism.

B: Aside from the fact that you've called all 300 million Americans 'stupid', explain the Americans contribution to terrorism and your 2 or 3 alternative paths that could be taken now..

Plus, just wait and watch the fallacy of winning the War on Terrorism.

B: What's the alternative Sasha?  You present and represent no alternative..

I have seen your posts on London bombings. The British public know it's linked to Tony's part in your wars. Even if you keep shouting your favourite imbalanced lines for the rest of your life, the Brits are not going to change their minds about this matter. They didn't when your president was spinning some lies with all the resources of the US government.

B: Sasha, no stranger to hyperbole, terms them "lies."  What really happened regarding WMDs in Iraq was mis-reading of massive amounts of intelligence.  Perhaps the worst mistake along these lines was the actual amount of WMDs that Saddam had in April 2003 (and he threatened and postured that he had WMDs such all the way through to his demise - if not always directly than indirectly through the course of his statements and actions.)

Now the way you blast the US and the MNF, one would assume that you though Saddam was a pretty good guy, all in all.  What do you think about Saddam Sasha, since you seem almost universally to condemn the action that resulted in his removal from power?

As to the Brits and terror - do you think that OBL was going to let Britain off easier than he let Spain off or easier than he let Chechnya off or easier than he let New York City and Washington DC off or easier than he let Kenya off or easier than he let Tanzania off or easier than he let the Philippines off or easier than he let the non-Muslims in Indonesia off, or, or, or, or?

And this chronology ties into the MNF actions in Iraq how exactly?  And you and all Brits (apparently) see the source of terrorism not in the terrorists themselves but in the response of civilization to terrorism?  How totally reversed and preverse is that logic?

Good luck with your spins.
B: Good luck with your prevarications, tunnel vision and historical revisionism..



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 4:15am
1- Anyone who sits around and does nothing when there president states
that lives will be at stake is pretty stupid, maybe the people who where
against it should start a exodus and leave ameriKKKA.

2- The weapons industry is run by the U.S. and Israel, who gets them is
there responsibility and should be accounted for the crimes.

3-b95000 i have been looking at you and your friends posts here, you all
mostly came to a islamic forum to share your rhetoric with a lack of
understanding Islam all together., maybe if you understood you could be
saved., but death is all you seek for things that will rot after you and i
pass on in this life.

Anyone who opposes peace is the DEATH CULT, the ones who BLAME the
poor people, the one sided losers who need everything to make up for
there bad conscience because they can not exist ion the planet as a
decent human being.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 12:17pm

Bruce when you begin to put all those "Huhs" "ha s" and "ooh s" in your statements, we know you are coming up with nothing other than a Holywood dialogue. I have really begun to enjoy it. Good entertainment in these dire times of the Neo Con pre-emptive therapies. Glad you are here.

B: What's the alternative Sasha?  You present and represent no alternative.

Are you serious or is this just one of your jokes? Shall we not start with your alternative� on the table instead of your wailing about teachings and Imams?

I have been trying to build bridges between people of all faiths, since 1997 when I began to see such a mess arising out of the dellusions of Military Might. Like to visit http://www.islamic-world.org.uk - www.islamic-world.org.uk ?

B: Sasha, no stranger to hyperbole, terms them "lies." 

The Downing Street Memos prove that this war was agreed between GWB and TB and then intelligence fitted around it. Import of uranium from Niger wasn�t forged?

Now the way you blast the US and the MNF, one would assume that you though Saddam was a pretty good guy, all in all. 

I only blast the US for her crimes against humanity, in her own right

� not for any love of Saddam.

 

As to the Brits and terror

The Brits know what has put them in the firing line. If Blair failed to sell this spin with all his resources, what chance you could do it with sheer repition?

B: Good luck with your prevarications, tunnel vision and historical

Current Mid East mess is are already shouting out loud who has tunnel vision, your President or the rest of the world.

My point never needs any support form anyone other than yourself and the way you belittle Palestinian occupation by equating it with the plight of some Rio or Karachi kids.

 

btw: what do you call the Palestinian elections and the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip - more signs of occupation?

You may become not just respectable but also almost human if you stop such irrelevant chatter just to slip from the point at hand. How does any 2005 progress count when we are looking at the effects of decades of continued Palestinian occupation and killings � with US support at a cost of your $3,000,000,000 tax dollars a year?

 

We will see when that withdrawal takes place and if a FAIR solution is implemented!



Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 12:42pm
Peace whisper

Only Islam can build bridges between all faiths, and has had the longest
history of maintaining peace doing it.

Problem is the hypocrites abuse there religions and loose faith by seeking all
means necessary to be richer and more powerful then one another.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by jibreel jibreel wrote:



3-b95000 i have been looking at you and your friends posts here, you all
mostly came to a islamic forum to share your rhetoric with a lack of
understanding Islam all together., maybe if you understood you could be
saved., but death is all you seek for things that will rot after you and i
pass on in this life.

Anyone who opposes peace is the DEATH CULT, the ones who BLAME the
poor people, the one sided losers who need everything to make up for
there bad conscience because they can not exist ion the planet as a
decent human being.

B: You really have no clue what you're talking about with me - do you?  You have no idea what I have or haven't done for the poor and what efforts I've been involved in to amerliorate poverty in several parts of the globe.  But, for your own agenda, you choose to jump to idiotic conclusions like those...that's too bad jibreel...I am certainly not part of the death cult that plagues Islam..


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 2:25pm

Very funny number again.,

Now its your word against ALLAH( God's), the same ALLAH of
Jesus (PBUH) but what is new this time with the enemies of ALLAH, who
disbelieve... NOTHING AT ALL, and what happened to those before who
also where Allah's enemies? read on and learn.

You just keep on posting around islamic forums, because people like you
make Islam look great, and it is when we Muslims have the evidence
against you for the things you stand for.

Qur'an

41.18 And We delivered those who believed and guarded (against evil).
41.19 And on the day that the enemies of Allah shall be brought
together to the fire, then they shall be formed into groups.

60.2 If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth
towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently
desire that you may disbelieve. (nice try there guy)

2.98 Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and
Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

Bible

Num.10
9. And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth
you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be
remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your
enemies.

PSS 9
17. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget
God

Matt.10
28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the
soul: but rather fear him (ALLAH) which is able to destroy both soul and
body in hell.

Matt.18
9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is
better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes
to be cast into hell fire.

Matt.23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation
of hell?

Mark 9
43. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that
never shall be quenched:


So from what you post, your a satanic worshiper, death, dumb and blind.
Can you explain yourself if your not against the ALL mighty creator?


And by the way, you demom-strated your lack of faith by bragging that
you fed some one;

Alms 107


In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

1> Have you considered him who calls the judgment a lie?
2> That is the one who treats the orphan with harshness,
3> And does not urge (others) to feed the poor.
4> So woe to the praying ones,
5> Who are unmindful of their prayers,
6> Who do (good) to be seen,
7> And withhold the necessaries of life.


Why not try to do something between you and ALLAH alone for once, if
you believe?

Have some real faith is all i am saying.

here is one you will dwell on:
[33.61> Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering.
[33.62> (Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before( in the Torah); and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.


Posted By: hazeshawn
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 10:57pm
Any religion that boasts the killing of people is a religion I want nothing to do with. I don't believe in God! Which also means - I don't believe in Satan. I believe in myself! I have to post on these forums to show you of your evil ways. Suppose history got it all wrong and you are worshiping the wrong side of good and evil. Choose to believe in yourselves! One day your religions will crumble when you find out the real truth, until then, we're all just pissing in the wind! 

-------------
To Hell With Terrorism! (I don't believe in the "made up Hell that's in the fiction books, but rather an Island in the Cayman Islands)


Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 11:24pm

Originally posted by hazeshawn hazeshawn wrote:

Any religion that boasts the killing of people is a religion I want nothing to do with. I don't believe in God! Which also means - I don't believe in Satan. I believe in myself! I have to post on these forums to show you of your evil ways. Suppose history got it all wrong and you are worshiping the wrong side of good and evil. Choose to believe in yourselves! One day your religions will crumble when you find out the real truth, until then, we're all just pissing in the wind! 

You don't get out much, do you?



-------------
Yusuf


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 28 July 2005 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by jibreel jibreel wrote:

Peace whisper

Only Islam can build bridges between all faiths, and has had the longest
history of maintaining peace doing it.



How has this been coming along jibreel?  Care to give us some real life examples?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 28 July 2005 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by jibreel jibreel wrote:


3-b95000 i have been looking at you and your friends posts here, you all
mostly came to a islamic forum to share your rhetoric with a lack of
understanding Islam all together., maybe if you understood you could be
saved., but death is all you seek for things that will rot after you and i
pass on in this life.

Anyone who opposes peace is the DEATH CULT, the ones who BLAME the
poor people, the one sided losers who need everything to make up for
there bad conscience because they can not exist ion the planet as a
decent human being.


==============
 
Very funny number again.,

Now its your word against ALLAH( God's), the same ALLAH of
Jesus (PBUH) but what is new this time with the enemies of ALLAH, who
disbelieve... NOTHING AT ALL, and what happened to those before who
also where Allah's enemies? read on and learn.

You just keep on posting around islamic forums, because people like you
make Islam look great, and it is when we Muslims have the evidence
against you for the things you stand for.

Qur'an

41.18 And We delivered those who believed and guarded (against evil).
41.19 And on the day that the enemies of Allah shall be brought
together to the fire, then they shall be formed into groups.

60.2 If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth
towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently
desire that you may disbelieve. (nice try there guy)

2.98 Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and
Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

Bible

Num.10
9. And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth
you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be
remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your
enemies.

PSS 9
17. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget
God

Matt.10
28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the
soul: but rather fear him (ALLAH) which is able to destroy both soul and
body in hell.

Matt.18
9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is
better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes
to be cast into hell fire.

Matt.23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation
of hell?

Mark 9
43. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that
never shall be quenched:


So from what you post, your a satanic worshiper, death, dumb and blind.
Can you explain yourself if your not against the ALL mighty creator?


And by the way, you demom-strated your lack of faith by bragging that
you fed some one;

Alms 107


In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

1> Have you considered him who calls the judgment a lie?
2> That is the one who treats the orphan with harshness,
3> And does not urge (others) to feed the poor.
4> So woe to the praying ones,
5> Who are unmindful of their prayers,
6> Who do (good) to be seen,
7> And withhold the necessaries of life.


Why not try to do something between you and ALLAH alone for once, if
you believe?

Have some real faith is all i am saying.

here is one you will dwell on:
[33.61> Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering.
[33.62> (Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before( in the Torah); and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.


Uh, you want to talk about demon-strating?  How about using perjoratives against people of faith in God?  Where does that fall in your little list jibreel?  Please the rest of this is just your reactions to your orginal insults...you think your insulting rudeness makes Islam 'look good?'  Just look at the nasty language you use of fellow people of faith!
'death is all you seek'
'the ones who BLAME the
poor people, the one sided losers who need everything to make up for
there bad conscience because they can not exist ion the planet as a
decent human being.'

How do you justify such talk and then claim holiness and righteousness?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 July 2005 at 11:45pm

Brother Jibreel, may I ask you just one question? What does the Quran say about waste?

Do you really have so much time to waste on a total waste? It may be hard for you to understand that some people get so addicted to abuse in their earlier years that they begin to employ all tools to provoke people to abuse them when tey grow up

Now, a man with an Honours in Psychology is telling you that. Save you time and energy for something better. These people are paid to drain you of your energy - the Homeland Security has billions to spend on monitoring such sites.Don't spill all your beans just for them.



Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 12:12am
Originally posted by hazeshawn hazeshawn wrote:

Any religion that boasts the killing of people is a
religion I want nothing to do with. I don't believe in God! Which also
means - I don't believe in Satan. I believe in myself! I have to post on
these forums to show you of your evil ways. Suppose history got it all
wrong and you are worshiping the wrong side of good and evil. Choose to
believe in yourselves! One day your religions will crumble when�you find
out the real truth, until then, we're all just pissing in the wind!�


Ignorant is what it sounds like for you to be on a Islamic forum then
doesn't it?, think about that there.

BTW., Satan said the very same things you just did.
And he did it by blaming God for his mistakes in life and wanted to move
on claiming he did not need the sustenance of his creator.


-The hypocrites say that believing is your imagination., well, this seems
more to be the result of a liar who can not distinguish the truth from
falsehood., so they preach self righteous philosophies because they lost
sight.

-while the believers are those who do God's will and benefited from it.

Maybe your one of those people who need to discover the that the Qur'an
challenges anyone who thinks they can supersede the science and truth in
it.

If you can prove any falsehood in the Qur'an after reading it in arabic, i
would like to hear what you have to say, until then, your God ameriKKKa
made you like there lies.

The american dream, they call it a dream, because it only happens in your
sleep


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 12:31am
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

Brother Jibreel, may I ask you just one question? What
does the Quran say about waste?


Salam Whisper

:)
Quote [7.170] And (as for) those who hold fast by the Book and keep up
prayer, surely We do not waste the reward of the right doers.

[11.115] And be patient, for surely Allah does not waste the reward of the
good-doers.

Every deed that we do is rewarded., while every misdeed they earn is
against there own soul, a curse like the curse on Satan and those who
fallow his footsteps.

They come to islamic forums to provoke muslims in order to prove to
themselves that some may be as evil as they are., basically , they like to
play satan.

Quote [10.33] Thus does the word of your Lord prove true against those
who transgress that they do not believe.

[40.6] And thus did the word of your Lord prove true against those who
disbelieved that they are the inmates of the fire.


So waste is all they will be doing here, not me or you,
all this does is add faith to our faith proving we practice the true religion
of peace over there falsehood, if they knew better they would embrace
the truth to set them free from there sins.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by jibreel jibreel wrote:

Originally posted by hazeshawn hazeshawn wrote:

Any religion that boasts the killing of people is a
religion I want nothing to do with. I don't believe in God! Which also
means - I don't believe in Satan. I believe in myself! I have to post on
these forums to show you of your evil ways. Suppose history got it all
wrong and you are worshiping the wrong side of good and evil. Choose to
believe in yourselves! One day your religions will crumble when you find
out the real truth, until then, we're all just pissing in the wind! 


Ignorant is what it sounds like for you to be on a Islamic forum then
doesn't it?, think about that there.

BTW., Satan said the very same things you just did.
And he did it by blaming God for his mistakes in life and wanted to move
on claiming he did not need the sustenance of his creator.


-The hypocrites say that believing is your imagination., well, this seems
more to be the result of a liar who can not distinguish the truth from
falsehood., so they preach self righteous philosophies because they lost
sight.

-while the believers are those who do God's will and benefited from it.

Maybe your one of those people who need to discover the that the Qur'an
challenges anyone who thinks they can supersede the science and truth in
it.

If you can prove any falsehood in the Qur'an after reading it in arabic, i
would like to hear what you have to say, until then, your God ameriKKKa
made you like there lies.

The american dream, they call it a dream, because it only happens in your
sleep


Is this how you speak to unbelievers jibreel?  Is this how the Qur'an instructs you?  Elsewhere you talk about how Islam doesn't need to change but people need to just practice it more correctly...what about in treating people/unbelievers with respect and not calling them 'ignorant' just because they happen to disagree with you or say something you disagree with...?!


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 3:12am
Jibreel didn't call all non-believers ignorant. He has addresses just the only few he has noticed on this site.


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

Jibreel didn't call all non-believers ignorant. He
has addresses just the only few he has noticed on this site.


Peace whisper

May ALLAH reward you for your efforts to share truth.,

I never used the words in ways he or his helper do, i do not need to.

They on the other hand used the word 'STUPID', and the word "Blame" to
them means accusing someone., as well as luna-tic,
All these words get used politically to argue in order to cover up there
desires to deceive themselves to what they are after., usually inspired by
fear,

They did the same things also to Jesus (PBUH) and the Prophet (PBUH)
and all prophets (PBUTA), and anyone who they fear threatened by who
proclaim the word of God, ALLAH.

And they sell there souls to support 'proxy wars' and blame others like
the way SADAM gets blames for doing reagens dirty work, and so on.

But, we still know the truth and have peace


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by b95000 b95000 wrote:

]
Is this how you speak to unbelievers jibreel?� Is this how the
Qur'an instructs you?� Elsewhere you talk about how Islam doesn't
need to change but people need to just practice it more
correctly...what about in treating people/unbelievers with respect and
not calling them 'ignorant' just because they happen to disagree with
you or say something you disagree with...?!


I know what the word Ignorant means, and you are ignorant about islam.,
there is no doubt so far from your posts that you have no clue what your
talking about when it comes to Islam, or even other ABRAHAMIC religions.

If you are not ignorant about them, then why don't you just simply prove
it to me with a surah and practice truth and constancy with us all, or is
that too much for you to do?

And how would you treat the un believers who neglect the
commandments of ALLAH and do evil over the things they are willing to
murder for that they value more then other human beings?

So just because you like to use foul language does not mean others do,
see how your own enemy is within? Do evil see evil., hell is not a nice
resting place to sleep in for those who do evil.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by jibreel jibreel wrote:

Originally posted by b95000 b95000 wrote:

]
Is this how you speak to unbelievers jibreel?  Is this how the
Qur'an instructs you?  Elsewhere you talk about how Islam doesn't
need to change but people need to just practice it more
correctly...what about in treating people/unbelievers with respect and
not calling them 'ignorant' just because they happen to disagree with
you or say something you disagree with...?!


I know what the word Ignorant means, and you are ignorant about islam.,
there is no doubt so far from your posts that you have no clue what your
talking about when it comes to Islam, or even other ABRAHAMIC religions.

If you are not ignorant about them, then why don't you just simply prove
it to me with a surah and practice truth and constancy with us all, or is
that too much for you to do?

And how would you treat the un believers who neglect the
commandments of ALLAH and do evil over the things they are willing to
murder for that they value more then other human beings?

So just because you like to use foul language does not mean others do,
see how your own enemy is within? Do evil see evil., hell is not a nice
resting place to sleep in for those who do evil.


You're funny - where have I used 'foul' language?  You have to try to attack me - I'm simply defending someone else who you attack.  Further, you're the one pulling out Nazi comparisons left and right...please, and you're accusing me of foul language! 

-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.



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