Bismillah

Ask yourself, was it only for the removal of a horrible dictator?  

Mockba, please, do not pose such difficult questions.

Have you ever seen a killer ever stand up and not justify his crime with a hundred excuses? What is it called? I would rather not mention that particular term. (Just wish to stay on this forum a while longer)

And, please, always remember when Americans are around that the US has never made any mistakes (forget about the crimes against humanity) in her entire history.

And, please, never even breathe about the UN resolutions tossed away by Israel with US support. Or, of those vetoed by the US. Also remember that good old Greek saying; "When gods decide to destroy a people, they begin by ceasing their powers of reasoning". Please just think of that when any Americans refuse to see anything beyond their confines of arrogance.

Just smile and ignore them!!!

It's no mockery my friend. Just a bit of straight advice to a fellow poster who was spending too much breath on a slippery character - from a chap who has had a chance to sample the delights of American intellect while living on both sides of the Detroit River.

To insist that some "people of goodwill" are occupying a country is actual mockery of humanity.

You live in the States. I am sure you must know how many resolutions against Israel your country has vetoed? Or, how many have been binned with explicit US support?

Now, pretending not to know a simple straight fact is real mockery. Not to know such facts while pretending to know all is a tragedy. Now you understand why I have all my sympathies with the Americans and always protect them from such hard times of being forced to face the truth?

Whisper wrote: And, please, always remember when Americans are around that the US has never made any mistakes (forget about the crimes against humanity) in her entire history.

can you tell me any country or people in existance today that have never committed crimes against humanity ?  people are not all good and not all bad, there is a mixture in all parts of the world.

My friend, did I ever say that no country or people have ever made any mistakes? Or, ever implied that? All I am saying is that it's the hardest for our American friends to take responsibilty of their actions of the past half centrury.

Not only that but mostly they come charging as if the US has never made a single mistake in her entire history. Some agree that their admin lied to take them to this war. But when it comes to some other spins of their same admin, say about their occupations, these very people take offence.

We can not solve problems unless and until all side take responsibities of their mistakes, their crimes. Our world will never taste peace without truth and justice.

Switzerland and Sweden seem to have a clean record on crimes against humanity.

The Swiss helped arm the Germans in WW2 recieving payment with stolen gold and stolen art profiting from the German Nazi's.  They seem to have been quite supportive of Nazi Germany, probably the biggest committers of crimes against humanity the world has ever seen.

The Swiss are hardly exempt. 

The most famous case of stolen art which has occupied art historians, journalists and politicians since the 50ies is the origin of the private collection of the Swiss arms manufacturer Dieter B�hrle (Oerlikon-B�hrle).  The B�hrle dynasty has provided Germany essential weapons in both world wars.  In WW2 some 80 % of all German anti-aircraft weapons and ammunition were manufactured in Switzerland [particularly by Oerlikon-B�hrle], with deliveries continuing [into] 1945.  For these last deliveries Germany paid with stolen art treasures, much of which collected by Feldmarschall Hermann G�ring.  One large and clearly identifiable Jewish collection stolen in Paris thus found its way to the Dieter B�hrle collection and - due to Swiss law and practices - Mr.B�hrle has been able to fend off French government-supported recovery attempts over the last 40 years.  The Swiss penal code gives good title to anybody who managed to hold on to stolen art for more than 30 years.  Moreover, Swiss wartime emergency legislation and postwar judgements presume good title for any asset, irrespective of criminal or non-criminal origin, acquired by Swiss citizens from Germany during the Nazi period.  The only limitation seems to have been robbery committed by the Swiss acquirer himself.

Another question of stolen goods which have passed through Switzerland concerns the gold reserves of France and several other countries.  In 1940, the gold reserves of theBanque de France by far exceeded the combined reserves of Fort Knox and the Bank of England.  The Nazis stole the entire French reserves before the end of 1940, and much of it ended up in Swiss vaults. 

Sweden supposedly another "nuetral" contry in ww2, hardly exempt.

Toward the end of World War II, an unspecified number of Latvian and Estonian Nazi war criminals escaped to Sweden among a wave of Baltic refugees fleeing the advancing Soviet Army. Although the Swedish government established a special commission to investigate their wartime activities, no legal action was ever taken against any of these escaped Holocaust perpetrators.

Could you sometimes also talk in plain simple English? Or, is it taht you have nothing to say, really.

I am not demanding anything at all. I can take any criticism of my country and also accept our mistakes with an open heart. I am not an American.

Whisper wrote: Switzerland and Sweden seem to have a clean record on crimes against humanity.

Whisper, you do seem to be a highly intelectual person with much knowledge which i respect very much.

I was curious Whisper, what would your response be to my reply about Switzerland and Sweden ?

You keep talking about prior to "liberation" Afghanistan. A society is not a computer that we can pick it up and upgrade it just like that in a few days. If "elections" acted like some magic wand to change lives and countries like that then every country will be holding one every week for the fastest effect.

You wish to now how Afghanistan has changed after the "liberation"? I believe Sidney Blumenthal is quite a prominent American. Not some Imam.

Democracy was only an afterthought
The situation in Afghanistan is one of barely managed chaos
Sidney Blumenthal
Thursday July 21, 2005
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ - The Guardian

On the day of the London bombings, President Bush proclaimed: "The war on terror goes on." Through the 2004 campaign, his winning theme was terror. He achieved the logic of a unified field theory connecting Iraq to Afghanistan by threading terror through both, despite the absence of evidence. He insisted that if we didn't fight the terrorists there, we would be fighting them at home. In January, the CIA's thinktank, the National Intelligence Council, issued a report describing Iraq as the magnet and training and recruiting ground for terrorism. The false rationale for the invasion had become a self-fulfilling prophecy. With his popularity flagging, Bush returned to the formulations that succeeded in his campaign.

In Bush's "global war on terror" (Gwot), Iraq and Afghanistan present one extended battlefield against a common enemy - and the strategy is and must be the same. So far as Bush is concerned, it's always either the day after 9/11 or the day before the Iraq invasion. Time stands still at two ideal political moments. But his consequences since are barely managed chaos.

"I was horrified by the president's last speech [on the war on terror], so much unsaid, so much disingenuous, so many half truths," said James Dobbins, Bush's first envoy to Afghanistan, now director of international programmes at the Rand Corporation. Afghanistan is now the scene of a Taliban revival, chronic Pashtun violence, dominance by US-supported warlords who have become narco-lords, and a human rights black hole.

From the start, he said, the effort in Afghanistan was "grossly underfunded and undermanned". The military doctrine was the first error. "The US focus on force protection and substitution of firepower for manpower creates significant collateral damage." But the faith in firepower sustained the illusion that the mission could be "quicker, cheaper, easier". And that justification fitted with Afghanistan being relegated into a sideshow to Iraq.

According to Dobbins, there was also "a generally negative appreciation of peacekeeping and nation building as components of US policy, a disinclination to learn anything from ... Bosnia and Kosovo".

Lack of accountability began at the top and filtered down. On the day of President Hamid Karzai's inauguration in Afghanistan, in December 2001, Dobbins met General Tommy Franks, the Centcom commander, at the airport. As they drove to the ceremony, Dobbins informed Franks of press reports that US planes had mistakenly bombed a delegation of tribal leaders and killed perhaps several dozen. "It was the first time he heard about it. When he got out of the car, reporters asked him about it. He denied it happened. And he denied it happened for several days. It was classic deny first, investigate later. It turned out to be true. It was a normal reflex."

Democracy was an afterthought for the White House, which believed it had little application to Afghans. At the Bonn conference establishing international legitimacy for the Kabul government, "the word 'democracy' was introduced at the insistence of the Iranian delegation", Dobbins points out.

However, democracy - now the overriding rationale for the Gwot - does not include support for human rights. "In terms of the human rights situation in Afghanistan, Karzai is well meaning and moderate and thoroughly honourable," said Dobbins, "but he's overwhelmed."

Donald Rumsfeld's Pentagon and the White House removed restraints on torture. "These were command failures, not just isolated incidents ... You didn't have the checks and balances. They've had consequences in terms of public image." In April, the US succeeded in abolishing the office of the UN rapporteur on human rights for Afghanistan.

Dobbins believes that the operation in Afghanistan has improved, but that the administration "hasn't readily acknowledged its mistakes, and corrected them only after losing a good deal of ground, irrecoverable ground ... most of the violence is not al-Qaida type, but Pashtun sectarian violence. It's not international terrorism."

Facts on the ground cannot alter Bush's stentorian summons to the Gwot. "This is a campaign conducted primarily, and should be, by law enforcement, diplomatic and intelligence means," Dobbins said. "The militarisation of the concept is a theme that mobilises the American public effectively, but it's not a theme that resonates well in the Middle East or with our allies elsewhere in the world."

"We're taking the fight to the terrorists abroad, so we don't have to face them here at home," Bush declared in June - and repeated endlessly - finally appearing vindicated with the London attacks. London, like Iraq and Afghanistan, is "there", not "here".

� Sidney Blumenthal, a former senior adviser to President Clinton, is author of The Clinton Wars

I share your sadness, Bruce.

You have nothing to say to us that we have not already heard from the US admin itself.

You hold not a single point with you.

You are here just to score some. Good luck, It�s a good way to go through the type of loneliness the industrialised society breeds.

Just posting this for a general read. I need NOT even mention that Prof. J. K Galbraith is definitely more credible than some jugglesrs who have been trying to sell us slaughter and occupation as some "liberation".

Just read and enjoy!

A cloud over civilisation
Corporate power is the driving force behind US foreign policy - and the slaughter in Iraq
JK Galbraith
Thursday July 15, 2004
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ - The Guardian

At the end of the second world war, I was the director for overall effects of the United States strategic bombing survey - Usbus, as it was known. I led a large professional economic staff in assessment of the industrial and military effects of the bombing of Germany. The strategic bombing of German industry, transportation and cities, was gravely disappointing. Attacks on factories that made such seemingly crucial components as ball bearings, and even attacks on aircraft plants, were sadly useless. With plant and machinery relocation and more determined management, fighter aircraft production actually increased in early 1944 after major bombing. In the cities, the random cruelty and death inflicted from the sky had no appreciable effect on war production or the war.

B: What?  This is just ludicrous...you have no idea what you're talking about in this case Sasha...this post is laughable...all the more because you have really no idea who I am...Funny; I'm laughing out loud man..btw: None of what you post here about me is true..

What am I posting about you, Bruce? I am just saying that you hold no points of your own but just keep repeating the official US spins, which we have heard just a bit too often.

That�s all what I have said.

Okay, good luck, if just one of my posts about you turns out to be not true. So far you have been shouting your admin's spin in every single post and to belittle some very humane issues.

Good luck and grow out of these dramatic "ah" "oh" and "ooh" staged dialogues. Some posters have started to take you as if some B grade movie dialogue writer.

Yes, you are right. You haven't belittled any issues. By now, I have begun to understand you. 

If you can not understand Desecration of the Qura'n and its effect on your and your puppets image + safety then it's too much for us to expect you to see what occupations, rapes of eight year olds, Palestinian landgrab, massacres and Falluja actually are.

I hold an Hons in Psychology. I know what this condition is known as, but I would keep shut just for the sake of sheer decorum of this Forum.

Proof of what desecration means to an Afghan or a Muslim? If you don't know what it means to a Muslim then we know your admin will not be able to hold much ground anywhere in the Muslim world.

You fail to see the point. For me, it's not a personal matter.

You can forget about obsessions. That may be luxury of youth or someone who has no better things to do. At 60 plus the priorities of life change, especially, when you join the grandpa club.

I am just trying to show you how the man in the Muslim street views the whole thing.

Newsweek retreated their retreation with a Big Bang of Readers Letters - in June. Please go through those issues. It's a pity I left my copy in the plane.

I am sure someone could ref to this from the Forum. It is now established that the desecration of the Qur'an did take place on many occassions.

Your country is accused of the desecration of the Qur'an. The Big Ball is in your court. You prove that it did not happen. And the onus is on you to prove to the Muslims of the world that Newsweek did not RETRACT THE RETRACTION.

Jumping about with smart words alone won't repair your country's image. Why shouldn't I calmly listen to the great Diana Navarro instead of running around collecting the shattered US image. Son, it's your country you dod it while I watch you shooting again and again in your feet.

I accuse you of being a child pervert - prove to us that this is not true.

But then you didn't tell me you were only a child.

In fact, I think you still are. Why do you hesitate reading Newsweeks of  after 30th May? The retraction was retracted in June 2005.

I am talking about its effect on the Muslim perception - and in your own childish way you are pushing it - into an absolutely different side alley.

What will it take for anyone to drill it into your American head that even when the story was forced by the White House to be retracted - the Muslims perception had not cleared. However hard you jusmp let me assure you, you can not do what all the other Neo Cons could not do to improve the US image. It will only improve when they start behaving like human beings.

Okay, at least, almost like human beings.

Racist drivel Sasha...don't you tire of it yourself?
Your arrogance, ignorance and obstinate refusal to treat the actual issue at hand brings out nothing other than that in people. The only difference is that I mention it openly while most others on this board wish to be polite about it.

You are a living proof of what the world today believes about the Americans.

After reading a whole lot of your posts today, I have really started to feel for you. Perhaps, you don't know your own ultimate ignorance. It's your failure to recognise that life's not some "B" grade movie court room scenes, it's a set of actual realities. It's not just some place where we come just to score some points or live with the fear of losing that score.

I won't go into what kind of childhood experiences normally create such an atitude. But it could help to see someone and immediately. In your present state it would be hard for you to see anything in reality terms. I won't press any matter at this point out of sheer sympathy.

Slipping from the point has become your trade mark by now. Fear of facing the reality of Muslim Perception that was being discussed?

You well know Newsweek retracted the retraction in June, but you just want to waste our time. Why should I worry for your masters' image as long as the Muslim world knows what happened and how the retraction was forced.

FREE Press?

B: Sasha, you want us to believe that you are telling the facts and yet without proof.

I thought you knew the world better than all of us put together here and yet you want proof of the fact that the Muslim world was and is still affected by this incidence?

Why not table a New Topic: "Are the Muslims Really Affected by Koran Desecration" and just see.

have you had such verbal diaorhea always or just since the US image stocks hit their bottom?

Your shouting and wailing all hours or what I say or don't say makes no difference at all to PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS - SPECIALLY THOSE PUBLIC PERCEPTIONS THE US MEDIA IS UNABLE TO CONTROL. Do you get that or still wanting to bark up all the other trees?

Why not take the Muslim perception to some court of your choice?

Okay, I say - "the US soldiers did desecrate the Koran". Take me to court anywhere in the world. Or, do whatever you or your idiotic President may. But take your ill-educated whinging somewhere else.

Reality of Muslim Perception must ultimately be based on the facts.

You have thus far proved just two extremely sad facts with all that energy.

One; you have nothing better to do with your life than to keep flooding this site with some worn out dialogues and cheap "B grade movie" court scenes.

Two; it takes a man with "emotional clarity" to know that human perceptions are not regulated by any rules and regulations. IF Muslim Perception could be regulated like that the Washington Gang would have found, discovered or invented some way to control it - long before the desire hit you.

To be very honest, I have really started to enjoy your dance on such hot coals

This in regard to minor incidents

Only an American would take the desecration of the Qura'n as a minor incident. You are right it's almost like getting a car written off in some accident!!

I have understood your level and I am not going to waste any more time lsitening to your theatricals.

Thanks. My last post to you.

Love your dialogues and that coal Dance!

I don't have to stir up any strife. The Neo Cons like you are doing much better a job by belittling Muslim perceptions in their own idiotic manners.

We would have believed your "Ali" only if he had a more realistic name and lived somewhere other than just some internet site. Now you understand why people don't take Americans seriously - without their guns.

I'm no 'neo con' either

Okay, you are just a Neo Con groupie. When will they let you in on the main band? You really think we are so gullible that we can't see when someone is just pasting the worn out Neo Con lies on the site? Iraqi Freedom? With 14 huge bases stuck all around them?

Only pathological liars, ConMen, Neo Cons and habitual war criminals will try and force upon us that Eyerak is Free.

R E A D and enjoy the lies being posted on this site by supporters of Ultra Right Wing Death Cultists.

Iraqi law minister blasts US detentions

Wednesday 14 September 2005

Iraq's justice minister has condemned the US military for detaining thousands of Iraqis for long periods without charge and wants to change a UN resolution that gives foreign troops immunity from Iraqi law.

Speaking to Reuters, Justice Minister Abdul Hussein Shandal also criticised US detentions of Iraqi journalists and said the media, contrary to US policy in Iraq, must have special legal protection to report on all sides in the conflict.

"No citizen should be arrested without a court order," he said this week, complaining that US suggestions that his ministry had an equal say on detentions were misleading.

"There is abuse [of human rights] due to detentions, which are overseen by the Multinational Force (MNF) and are not in the control of the Justice Ministry," said Shandal, a Shia judge respected for standing up to Saddam Hussein on the rule of law.

UN resolution

Killings and unjustified arrests of Iraqi civilians by US troops risked going unpunished, he said, because of UN Security Council resolution 1546, which granted US-led forces sweeping powers following their overthrow of Saddam in 2003.

"The resolution ... gives immunity to the MNF and means taking no action against the MNF no matter what happens or whatever they do against the people of Iraq," Shandal said.

"We're hoping to make more efforts with the Security Council and the whole United Nations to end this resolution or amend it so that anyone who violates Iraqi law or assaults any citizen is held accountable," he said.

"This is a matter of sovereignty."

He said he was pressing US forces to speed up releases for some of the 10,000 Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison and elsewhere, often for many months without charge, on suspicion of aiding Sunni Arab fighters.

US forces pressed

Last month, 1000 men were freed from Abu Ghraib as Iraq's Shia-led government and Washington tried to appease the once dominant Sunni minority.

The United Nations said last week faster releases could promote Sunni acceptance of the new political system.

Iraqi officials voice frustration with US and British vetoes on some requests for release, noting that Iraqis have been held for two years without charge to "gather intelligence".

Speaking of the Combined Review and Release Board (CRRB) which guarantees detainees a hearing every six months, Shandal said: "The representatives of the MNF in the committee have the rights and all the authority under the UN resolution."
 
Journalists detained

Shandal said he was concerned about the US military's refusal to accord special consideration to the media and at the number of journalists detained for many months by US troops.
  
Among these is Reuters cameraman Ali Omar Ibrahim al-Mashhadani, who was ordered detained by the CRRB last month as a "threat to the people of Iraq". The military will not say what suspicions it has against him.

Asked to clarify the CRRB definition of "threat", Shandal said: "It's a catch-all term to portray this person as a threat to the nation and allow the other side to keep him in custody."

Asked if the government approved of such measures, which US generals say they implement with Iraqi official support, he said: "I am a man of law and a judge and I respect human rights... No citizen should be arrested without a court order."

Special protection

Although the nature of their work brings journalists under suspicion from both sides, the US command in Iraq refuses to consider special treatment for accredited reporters and says it will detain them under the same conditions as any other suspect.

Shandal, however, said journalists needed special protection and defended independent reporting from all sides, including from fighter-held areas.

He insisted on journalists' right to film and interview Iraq's fighters without fear of arrest or worse.

"In this time of conflict ... between terrorists and the army or Multinational Forces, the journalist comes to the fore.

US suggestions that his ministry had an equal say on detentions were misleading.

Any human being would know what this sentence means. Only Neo Con scums sigh and ask what it really means.