As Salaam Alaikum

Nearly 500 years back, people in the West rebelled against corrupt religious hierarchy and thought that they have rebelled against God and won. Now, they seem to pride themselves over their godlessness. Their advances in the field of science has removed the fear of God from their hearts and made them feel superior to Allah (subhan-Allah). No other group of people have oppressed the weak and poor people of the world as much as the Westerners and for as long as they are doing. They permit lechery and sodomy among themselves. Whether they admit it or not, they are exceedingly indulging in wine and women. Western "culture" is exceptionally antagonistic to Islam (and Muslims) compared to other cultures. Muslims have suffered so much because of them..... The writing on the wall is, there can be NO compromise between Islam and the West. Those "Muslims" who have adopted WEstern culture will have to decide soon about which side they are in - Islam or the West (this is not any kind of demand from me, its my anticipation/prediction).

ZamanH wrote: As Salaam Alaikum Nearly 500 years back, people in the West rebelled against corrupt religious hierarchy and thought that they have rebelled against God and won. Now, they seem to pride themselves over their godlessness. Their advances in the field of science has removed the fear of God from their hearts and made them feel superior to Allah (subhan-Allah). No other group of people have oppressed the weak and poor people of the world as much as the Westerners and for as long as they are doing. They permit lechery and sodomy among themselves. Whether they admit it or not, they are exceedingly indulging in wine and women. Western "culture" is exceptionally antagonistic to Islam (and Muslims) compared to other cultures. Muslims have suffered so much because of them..... The writing on the wall is, there can be NO compromise between Islam and the West. Those "Muslims" who have adopted WEstern culture will have to decide soon about which side they are in - Islam or the West (this is not any kind of demand from me, its my anticipation/prediction).

About 10 years ago, I was shown a Masonic book that was printed in the early 1800's. It depicted the Founders (George, Thomas, Ben, etc...) of America, each with a headshot painting, surrounding a declaration that they bear witness that there is no god but Allah the god of Mohammed and the Mohammedans. The next page depicted them making Hajj and wearing the Ikhram. It went onto describe that they do know the True God Almighty ALLAH. The eye in the missing cap-stone, above the pyramid on th US One Dollar bill is called the All-Seeing Eye of Allah.

I say this because there is a world of hidden history that most people have absolutely no knowledge of. The Masons recall losing the Crusades vividly. The trans-Atlantic slave trade is a recreation of the Masonic Ritual of Hiram Abiff. The Mystery of Hiram Abiff has been solved by the One with the Lions Paw (Master Grip), Hiram has been raised from the grave. It was very sad to see this ritual acted out, but it has served its purpose. All of this was done without the knowledge of most of the Muslim world and Islam was forbidden to be known in the West for 400 years, except in Masonic societies.

Most do not know the Masonic relationship between Europe and the Muslim world. The oldest publicly known Masonic Lodge is in Jordan.

There is much more happening than meets the Eye. Look at like this;

"7:34. He said: Then go forth, for surely thou art driven away,

35. And surely on thee is a curse till the day of Judgment.

36. He said: My Lord, respite me till the time when they are raised.

37. He said: Surely thou art of the respited one,

38. Till the period of the time made known.

39. He said: My Lord, as Thou has judged me erring, I shall certainly make (evil) fair-seeming to them on earth, and I shall cause them all to deviate,

40. Except Thy servants from among them, the purified ones.

41. He said: This is a right way with Me.

42. As regards My servants, thou has no authority over them except such of the deviators as follow thee.

43. And surely hell is the promised place for them all "

Yaar let's be a bit realistic and in just simple terms. We must be kind to the poverty stricken west. Isn't it poverty that all remedies and solution West has ever spun have always had more side effects than the cure?

Plus what's west's biggest contribution to mankind? Sorry other than their Plastic Temples and Tin Gods? I know and won't refute that they carved out motor car. Crafted a fridge, television, the airplane and of course their highest achievement - the BOMB!!!

Didn't get it. It's motherless fatherless sort of deep depression. We are now importing as it's being sold to us duty-free.

ZamanH wrote: As Salaam Alaikum Nearly 500 years back, people in the West rebelled against corrupt religious hierarchy and thought that they have rebelled against God and won. Now, they seem to pride themselves over their godlessness. Their advances in the field of science has removed the fear of God from their hearts and made them feel superior to Allah (subhan-Allah). No other group of people have oppressed the weak and poor people of the world as much as the Westerners and for as long as they are doing. They permit lechery and sodomy among themselves. Whether they admit it or not, they are exceedingly indulging in wine and women. Western "culture" is exceptionally antagonistic to Islam (and Muslims) compared to other cultures. Muslims have suffered so much because of them..... The writing on the wall is, there can be NO compromise between Islam and the West. Those "Muslims" who have adopted WEstern culture will have to decide soon about which side they are in - Islam or the West (this is not any kind of demand from me, its my anticipation/prediction).

A big assumption!

For heaven's sake, stop blaming the west.

Can you define the West?

Noah wrote: We change the world by changing ourself,

that's true.

Angel wrote: A big assumption! For heaven's sake, stop blaming the west. Can you define the West?

I consider the Western Europeans, Australians and Americans as the WEst (i.e their culture, history, politics etc). And Israelis too, I consider Israel more a western colony than a legimitate state.

Angel wrote: Noah wrote: We change the world by changing ourself, that's true.

If you put all your hope of peace and justice on the tyrants and the murderers changing themselves, I don't agree with you. I will rather send them out of the world.

ZamanH wrote: Angel wrote: Noah wrote: We change the world by changing ourself, that's true. If you put all your hope of peace and justice on the tyrants and the murderers changing themselves, I don't agree with you. I will rather send them out of the world.

I don't agree with it either what you said placing all hope and justice on the tyrants as you say, that's not changing yourself so you can change the world. While thoughts play a part it is thru action, changing oneself will change the world.

If you want change, a new world, then you need to change yourself, you don't put hope and whatever onto other people that is not changing, of that you have missed the meaning.

ZamanH wrote: By the way, I don't claim to be perfect, but I certainly don't accept that I am as bad as (or worse than) them.

Same here

ZamanH wrote: I consider the Western Europeans, Australians and Americans as the WEst (i.e their culture, history, politics etc). And Israelis too, I consider Israel more a western colony than a legimitate state.

I see.

Angel wrote: If you want change, a new world, then you need to change yourself

I don't understand how will that make those who make mischief stop from acting mischeiviously?? 

To view history through on simple prism is rarely ever a true picture - whether that prism is a Western or Eastern perspective.  To see nuances and understand more about human nature reveals a fuller picture of responsiblities.  The West & the East are neither wholly good nor wholly bad.

Yes, I know. As I had said in other forum, I believe people in general are equally selfish everywhere. Westerners have got themselves to such situation that they depend on their prosperity on robbing others and to protect their interests they will probably side with robbers (that is reflected in the neo-con view of establishing an American century). Muslims on the other hand will have to fight the robbers to protect their interests.

Furthermore, to refuse to take responsibility for oneself, and instead be constantly blaming others, is a huge error in life, imho.

Yes, I know. I come from a well-off family. My father is nuclear-physicist, my elder brother is an engineer and is working in the U.S and my another brother(who is my twin brother) is a student and has already been recruited by a MNC through campus placement. I have a shop and I am doing well, too. I don't hold grudge against the West for personal reasons. My disdain for the West is more objective than that.

Zaman said:

My disdain for the West is more objective than that.

key words: "My disdain"  makes what you say about the west not objective but subjective.

Israfil wrote: Zaman said: My disdain for the West is more objective than that. key words: "My disdain"  makes what you say about the west not objective but subjective.

Yeah, I always try to see things in proper context. My approach is not absolutely objecticve.

b95000 wrote:  IMHO Zaman, you can't have it both ways..You can't be blessed and enjoy the goodness of the West and then primarily hold disdain for it...there's nothing objective about that - that's seems illogical to me. IMHO, logically, you can hold, in some sort of difficult balance, an appreciation for the West for areas of good and a disdain for the West for areas of evil.  Would you agree with that?

Trading with the West might not always be unethical. Neither my family nor I beg for anything from the West. We owe to the West just as much it owes to us.

Yes, if it were for personal reasons, I would be worshiping the UK and the US. I won't go into the reasons. The list will be quite long. We haven't driven the west out in the cold. The US and UK have done that for themseleves by constantly running and / or sponsoring murder campaigns in the Mid East.

As someone said a while ago: "if we just hate the west why don't we hit Sweden"? It is just the US and UK misdeeds that have brought it to this stage.

Let me put it this way, I try to see things neither out of context nor without any context. So, from your frame of reference I wanted you to know that I am neither unneccesary subjective nor wholly objective.

West only helps those who can help it. I see so many Indians applying for visa to the West but only those who are highly qualified (and not those who need it the most/not accoding to their needs) are permitted.

You know Prof Stilglitz? He is an American. Been the top guy at the World Bank. He has proved that because of American stranglehold of global money and the way corporate America operates - the poor of the world can only keep dying for a loaf of bread.

When American kiss hit Russia the Americans had sucked over 200 billion dollars from that country - illegally. The production went down 40%. Poverty was 2.1% - it shot up 10 times.

Today that country has all the American ills. Mafia, prostitution, drugs, street crime and even the size enhancement website!!

Noah wrote: mods remove this clown please peace noah

He hasn't been back yet; maybe his mommy caught him playing with her computer and sent him to bed.

Very simple. We can all go forward. Disarm the US and keep Americans in quarantine for 148 years, [moderator edited] Though Yusuf says that will be too short a period.

But I believe their mediocre heads might change. Yet some will maintain their own stands in the International Gallery of Rogues and Scoundrels or just in the tarrace of the petty theives.

Did I ever mention any names? 

Very simple, Sir. When we talk of occupation, we don't run an hide behind poverty. If you are so keen on talking poverty, start a thread and we will discuss it, but no running from poverty to something else when someone makes so solid points.

US is PURE EVIL

Bertrand Russel is my guru. I never believed him all these years. Since I have seen your Richard Perls, Ken Adlemen, Condis, Feiths, Wolfowitz and your President "selling a war like redundant stock of some dud company" and your occupations I have begun to believe that my guru was after all right.

I told that to someone at the restaurant tonight. He said that 148 years will be too short a time for that to happen.

I am not joking and it's not just my fault, the US image needs a lot of denting and painting since Iraq and, more since Abu Gharaib, Falluja and the desecrations.

Another, interesting thing. A friend who runs a cable network phoned from Bolton (UK) tonight. He is planning a one and a half hour movie on Guantanamo Bay. Guess what? All the Islamic country rights sold out in one afternoon.

Only parleys with the likes of me would help you mend your country's image. Your excuses / explanations etc. don't wash in all the countries.

But I'm not Bush head, I will not give Bush nor any politician carte blanche and I think that

Bruce, even if you were I would have taken it as your absolute Right of self determination. Bush would have remained a sole US citizens� concern if he had not been caught in the acts of creating such a global scale mess.

His actions now concern everyone in the world because these are multiplying terrorism. The other day I watched an Indian sketch on the TV:

OBL and GWB meet at a secret location, both with beards, in similar garbs. After deep embraces, ahlan w�sehlan and all that, OBL hands him the highest award for promoting his cause!!

None of us can ever be perfect.

I have become so accustomed to my imperfections that I have now started to log them. We are now faced with perhaps the most interesting times of our lives. We need to become able to end this spiral of violence.

We won�t be able to do that unless and until we generate a situation in which we could discuss everything in a clear, open, honest manner � without any national or regional considerations and whatever.

But the US is willing to act and many nations and peoples are not right now. 

I know where you are coming from, but action without wisdom always ends up in a far worse situation. Let�s face it action has created Iraq and, the whole region is sitting up to explode.

If we could solve matters by just killing the killers, all killings would have ended by now.

This problem is very deep rooted. It�s not just someone's desire to kill or anything like that. It stems from decades of active and passive oppression. It won�t go away unless and until we study its actual causes and do something to address those causes.

We can�t just shoot it away.

We must start by discussing facts and realities...perhaps, this is not what you think I've been doing, but that is truly my desire.

My mission is exactly the same. I am becoming more active just because I have had the advantage of knowing both the sides of this great divide. The reality for a man in Paghman or Basra is not the same as it may be, say, for a New Yorker or for someone in Bradford.

We have as yet not been able to find a Universal Template.

I well know what my Muslim friends would say. Our Community will flash at least 19 ayaats form the Qur�an and tell us that there is no other way than the one he is penning down.

Perhaps even I may have reached that conclusion, but if we won�t allow the US to force a system on the world why would we allow our Muslim friends to force their favourite system on the same world?

We have to chart the middle path.

And, I promise, far sooner than we may think.

Do you really think these things horrid and just want to focus on the 'powder keg' news? 

I don't think these things to be horrid at all. But you have to bear in mind that the world outside the US holds much less, if at all any, reason to believe your admin. I will consider Iraq free on the day it's free of foreign troops on its soil.

We will consider Afghanistan again our home the day the ferengi depart from there. Right now (whatever reports you get or don't get) the situation on the ground has become very volatile.

I am not discussing how it should be in ideal conditions or under one law  or the other. Unless activists like you begin to understand and take peoples' perceptions into account, US will be left wondering why the rest world can't see what we see. Any miles of arguments in your own favour won't make an iota of a difference.

Just a simple advice from a man who faces angry public each day of his life.

I will explain  "theatre trash" in absolute sincerity. At times, we win just by accepting the other peoples' points of view. When we try to hardsell our admins already worn out spin I promise you it is seen as nothing more than theatre trash. Ask anyone on this board.

Thanks. Actually you are not seeking truth, but trying to spread some brand of your own Truth - the one you have in hand.

Your entire admin is trying to do exactly the same and failing miserably at that. I wonder how far you would go bashing about, shooting left right and centre. Yet, Good Luck. 

You cannot claim to know what is going on in my heart There is a thing called track record. Your track record shows that you have justbeen peddling a bag full of some already globally rejected points. What do you learn by that other than how your admin's lies do not wash with the world outside of US?

I am coming from a very simple way that only fools wish to solve everything in this world with brute force. communist parties didn't exist my grandfather's day. My father was a great and a noble man and I chose not to discuss him in the company of war criminal Neo Cons.

If you wish to know about us, there are plenty of biographies available in Farsi on the Naqshbands. Ask someone at the Agency to find a translator for you. You will be better informed on quite a few Khanzadehs - not just me.

I give you a clue to becoming credible. When someone talks of say Palestinian occupation - just deal with that if you have any sense - instead of running under the smokescreen of a question like Does Israel have the right to exist?

You might think it's smart and you have scored a point. But the sad fact is that we are not all Americans on this board. People here do have far more intelligence than you give them credit. Plus, mostly we also remember what is being dicussed in a thread.

That's where you lose.

I have genuinely started to feel for your need for smart Alec point slipping. You must attend to it. This can very seriously affect personal relationships. Plus, when you cure this, you will have some self esteem.

The context of war is for your home market. We just know this war is illegal. PERIOD. Don't push us, as yet we are just being polite with you.

Thanks a lot for your sudden interest in our people. Call me after 2012 and we will talk as equals. Right now you just smell a bit.

while never mentioning word one about Saddam.

Saddam doesn't interest me at all. He was a US invention, through and through a US tool. He is gone. He is history.

The world, specifically the Muslim world, is only interested in the SCENE AS IT IS HERE AND NOW. Israel's work horse, the gun totting, abusive IMFs (don't ask me to translate that or esel I will) Koran desecrators occupying Muslim lands under some garbage of DEMOCRACY.

Where was your democracy when the ALGERIANS won 92 % vote?