http://www.counterpunch.com/roberts07082005.html - http://www.counterpunch.com/roberts07082005.html

Do you feel safer now that George Bush's and Tony Blair's barbaric attacks on Iraq have brought barbaric attacks to London?

Coordinated attacks on London's transport system have apparently killed 38 and injured 700. It is a terrible thing but hardly surprising. Did Londoners really think that the British people would not be held accountable for electing and reelecting Tony Blair--a war criminal under the Nuremberg standard--who aided and abetted George Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq on false pretenses?

Did Londoners really believe that Muslims would have no response to the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and the slaughter, torture, and detention of Muslims?

Blair and Bush are on their high horses claiming the morality of "civilized nations" and denouncing the retaliation they have provoked as "barbarism."

Their hypocrisy plays poorly in the world. Far more innocent Iraqi civilians, especially women and children, have been slaughtered than British and Americans. Why do Bush and Blair believe they should be praised for slaughtering civilians and only Muslims denounced?

Why do Americans think it is heroic and honorable for our troops to massacre Iraqis with bombs, missiles, gunships, tanks, and heavy machine guns, but cowardly and barbaric when our victims fight back in the only way they can?

The US and Britain started this fight, not Iraq. We should be ashamed that Bush and Blair deceived us, tricked us into a pointless and unjust war, and that innocent people on both sides are paying with their lives and limbs for Bush's and Blair's lies. Our real anger should be directed at Bush and Blair who are responsible for the deaths and destruction.

The American and British people had better wake up, depose their immoral leaders, and put a halt to this war.

There are 1.3 billion Muslims. The Iraqi insurgency has proved that Muslims are not intimidated by a "superpower." Unless the American and British people want a 30-year or a 100-year war with domestic police states for "security" reasons and a draft that will bleed their populations dry, this war needs to be wound up quickly with due apologies and reparations.

No more bluster and heroic talk from the two war criminals. The war is breeding terrorism and cannot be won. Only an even-handed diplomacy that breeds trust and ceases to rule Muslims with puppet governments can isolate and reduce terrorist acts. Muslims are not a few scattered Indian tribes with no place to hide who can be exterminated. America has no chance of imposing its will on the Muslim world. Muslims have their own will.

As long as Bush continues to operate with Mao's belief that power comes out of the barrel of a gun, terrorism will prosper and people will die for no reason except their refusal to hold corrupt leaders accountable.

Paul Craig Roberts has held a number of academic appointments and has contributed to numerous scholarly publications. He served as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. His graduate economics education was at the University of Virginia, the University of California at Berkeley, and Oxford University. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.

He can be reached at: [email protected]

There are millions of Britons who opposed and still oppose the war in Iraq, myself included. If the "author" is right and the bombings were payback for Iraq, it obviously didn't worry the bombers that they would kill Britons who oppose the war. It is also believed that Muslims have been victims of the bombers. The joker who wrote the above article seems to be saying that Muslims are somehow justified in deliberately targeting and attacking British civilians as payback for the Iraq war and we got it coming for re-electing Blair. If this so-called commentator knows anything about current British politics (which is doubtful), he would know that more people voted for other political parties than voted for Blair's Labour party .

If I were a Muslim I would be angered by this rubbish, I certainly wouldn't post it on an Islamic forum. It would appear that some of you guys want it both ways. One minute your are saying that the London bombers can't be Muslims because Muslims would never do such murderous things, the next minute you are posting badly researched and slanted articles about Muslim payback...

Bismillah

Tyranny is not practiced here on the board, therefore various views are expressed and shared. At times they are in line with Islam at times they are not. Some of the articles that I have recently shared in the forum express different views, mainly by non-Muslims writing for mainstream publications on current events. It would not be fair to label them as badly researched, that would be more appropriate for intelligence reports. The vairety of articles help get a wider view of the issue BUT they do not change the teachings of Islam.

As a Muslim, I am more angered with brutal murder and killing rather than writings. Killing of innocents is not in line with Islam, and so is London bombings. The article only helps explain that bombing did not come out of nowhere either... and London might have had them coming.

Quoting myself:

If I were a Muslim I would be angered by this rubbish, I certainly wouldn't post it on an Islamic forum. It would appear that some of you guys want it both ways. One minute your are saying that the London bombers can't be Muslims because Muslims would never do such murderous things, the next minute you are posting badly researched and slanted articles about Muslim payback...

MOCKBA wrote: As a Muslim, I am more angered with brutal murder and killing rather than writings. Killing of innocents is not in line with Islam, and so is London bombings. The article only helps explain that bombing did not come out of nowhere either... and London might have had them coming.

Mockba, doesn't it anger you that by pointing the finger specifically at Muslims the author is helping launch what you call in another thread; "The New Muslim-hunt Season!" ?

Mockba Wrote:

Bombing in London marked the launch of the new Muslim-hunt season. The report clearly shows who the Hunting Dogs will be released after... this time it is the educated young of the Muslim community with their profiles spun into "terror tales". It is an attempt by the infidel cowards at the future of our Ummah. There is undoubtedly more to come. Scary? No, for Allah is with those who patiently persevere. May Allah shield innocent Muslims from injustice, and may Allah strengthen their imaan.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1438&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1438& ; ;PN=1

I too am angered more by brutal murder and killing than by writing, but I wanted to say that words are powerful too. If we are involved in a situation where talk of killing and retribution becomes 'normal' and views are expressed that these things are right we must show our disgust and loudly voice our views that these things are wrong.

I am grateful for this board's expression of various views and for the chance to hear different oppinions.

I admit I am not knowledgeable enough to know who cast the first stone in this terrible conflict. I am more interested, however, in who will end all this and bring our world to peace. I want to find out more to try and understand all this.

Clara

Colin wrote: Mockba, doesn't it anger you that by pointing the finger specifically at Muslims the author is helping launch what you call in another thread; "The New Muslim-hunt Season!" ?

With or without him expressing his opinion the campaign is launched, "Muslim suspects" will be caught and and after some time found guilty and offered a "special" treatment in their prison cells... 

On the contrary, i don't find the author pointing his finger at Muslims. He, like vast majority of spectators in this world, is only looking in the direction where Blair and Bush have already been pointing theirs... only seeing things differently.  

A quote from the "author" of the article you posted:

Did Londoners really believe that Muslims would have no response to the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and the slaughter, torture, and detention of Muslims?

Mockba wrote:

On the contrary, i don't find the author pointing his finger at Muslims.

Then I would politely suggest you are suffering from tunnel vision.

Colin wrote: A quote from the "author" of the article you posted: Did Londoners really believe that Muslims would have no response to the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and the slaughter, torture, and detention of Muslims? Mockba wrote: On the contrary, i don't find the author pointing his finger at Muslims. Then I would politely suggest you are suffering from tunnel vision.

Just an example of a sentence being berieved of its context and emphasis that follows.

I wrote: On the contrary, i don't find the author pointing his finger at Muslims. He, like vast majority of spectators in this world, is only looking in the direction where Blair and Bush have already been pointing theirs... only seeing things differently.

Nice try, Colin. Although I admired him reminding readers of "slaughter torture and detention of Muslims" i would not go picking it out of the text.

Mockba Wrote:

Bismillah

b95000 wrote: What do you mean London might have had them coming?  You talk about how things are and aren't in line with Islam and then say that?

Firstly might have had... is not definitive it is hypothetical. Secondly, London having it coming, still does not mean that Islam supports it.

You kill an Iraqi and he fires back in retaliation without even looking where he is firing. You have it coming.

Giving in to emotions and frustrations that result in uncontrolled actions affecting other people's lives put that Iraqi outside of Islamic principles.

Hope it is clearer.

Bismillah

b05000 wrote: Fine - but what will Muslims do to help stop the extremists in their midst from committing these acts, and in certain of their clergy from encouraging and providing cover for these types of murders of innocent people (sometimes children)?  Muslims and non-Muslims of goodwill must band together to stop these sorts of brutal senseless killings - whether in Free Iraq or in the tube in London..

I totally agree with your post above. In fact that's what Muslims have been calling to... but only got invasion and confiscation of their property and soil in response.

Mockba wrote:

You kill an Iraqi and he fires back in retaliation without even looking where he is firing. You have it coming.

So if the families of the victims of the London bombs fire back in the general direction of Iraqis living in Britain. Do the Iraqis "have it coming"?

Giving in to emotions and frustrations that result in uncontrolled actions affecting other people's lives put that Iraqi outside of Islamic principles.

What if the London bomb victims families give in to emotions and frustrations, should their fellow Britons shrug there shoulders and say "That's totally against our laws and principles but hey, they had it coming didn't they"?

If we give into this kind of madhouse reasoning, where will it all end?

Bismillah

It would be much easier to have discussion with a questiona at a time. Let the investigative units decide who is behind the bombing. All we can do at the moment is hypothesize by examples (not necessarily representing reality). My statements were just examples to describe how an act can be coming without associating it to Islam.

Let's leave Iraqi context. An air-traffic controller whose error caused a mid air collision in 2002 was murderd by the father of one of the vicitms in 2004. The man carried his and has well calculated his revenge to be able to travel, locate and execute.  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3489166.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3489166.stm

This is just one exising example of utter outrage of a person over the death of his beloved kin. Can you count how many of them, men or women in dejection (not necessarily rejecters of Western dogma) caused by cowardly attacks of those that call themselves  "civilised" walk this planet Earth? And what makes you think that the state of despair is only a temporary feeling that heals after watching a couple of cartoons.  

You may well contribute your statements on Iraq's freedom and economic growth to Jay Leno... that's where they will be most well recieved. As far as property is concerned, you may begin your familiarization tour at the British Museum... that would only be 'bloodless' introduction to the subject.  

Colin wrote: Mockba wrote: You kill an Iraqi and he fires back in retaliation without even looking where he is firing. You have it coming. So if the families of the victims of the London bombs fire back in the general direction of Iraqis living in Britain. Do the Iraqis "have it coming"? Giving in to emotions and frustrations that result in uncontrolled actions affecting other people's lives put that Iraqi outside of Islamic principles. What if the London bomb victims families give in to emotions and frustrations, should their fellow Britons shrug there shoulders and say "That's totally against our laws and principles but hey, they had it coming didn't they"? If we give into this kind of madhouse reasoning, where will it all end?

Indeed this is madhouse reasoning. We must, however, sadly admit that it is not uncommon today. Just because it exists does not necessarily mean that we support it, does it? Just because we use it to explain how primitive minds may work doesn't mean that we are behind it, does it? Some see it "coming" in one direction, others redirect it some place else...-NY-Kabul-Bagdad-Madrid-Guantanamo-Bali-London-... The drivers are known. Now, are we the passengers or are we laying the railings for the train? Or do we need to travel in it at all...?

I was reflecting upon a possible thought (not mine), by assuming that Londond may have had it 'coming' (or may have deserved it... if you like). "May" implying on possibility and not a fact in someone's possible thinking (not mine). This is an example. Did i say anywhere that was what I thought? Please read my responses carefully, I've had enough terrorist attacks in my own backyard.  

Your economy statistics should be filed in the same folder with evidence of WMD.

I have no annoyance with the British or non-British alike.

If condemning alone would mend evil ways, prevent innocent deaths, and make me a better Muslim i would have spent lifetime condemning. Condemning is the least thing you can do to support those in need but thats the ONLY thing that those entrusted with power - do. I pray to Allah that He helps establish justice amongst people. 

MOCKBA wrote: I was reflecting upon a possible thought (not mine), by assuming that Londond may have had it 'coming' (or may have deserved it... if you like). "May" implying on possibility and not a fact in someone's possible thinking (not mine). This is an example. Did i say anywhere that was what I thought? Please read my responses carefully, I've had enough terrorist attacks in my own backyard.

Previously, Mockba wrote:

You kill an Iraqi and he fires back in retaliation without even looking where he is firing. You have it coming.

Mockba, if you didn't think the above, why did you type it? Do you share your house with a malevolent stage hypnotist?

Bismillah

Colin wrote: Mockba, if you didn't think the above, why did you type it? Do you share your house with a malevolent stage hypnotist?

When bomb blasts we look in horror. We often do not know 'who', but some of us try to understand 'why'. And in our search for answers it is appropriate to give options to all possible thoughts that may have motivated or guided individuals behind the attacks. We do not evaluate immediately whether they are justifiable or not... but we do consider all possibilities. Is there anything wrong with that? 

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." �George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

Bismillah

Clarabelle wrote: I too am angered more by brutal murder and killing than by writing, but I wanted to say that words are powerful too. If we are involved in a situation where talk of killing and retribution becomes 'normal' and views are expressed that these things are right we must show our disgust and loudly voice our views that these things are wrong. I am grateful for this board's expression of various views and for the chance to hear different oppinions. I admit I am not knowledgeable enough to know who cast the first stone in this terrible conflict. I am more interested, however, in who will end all this and bring our world to peace. I want to find out more to try and understand all this. Clara

Clara, in the vortex of empty talk where we often find ourselves twirling unintentionally (at least i do), there came a light in your short post. And having passed by it earlier, i thought of concluding my contribution in this thread by pointing attention to what you wrote.

Mockba wrote:

When bomb blasts we look in horror. We often do not know 'who', but some of us try to understand 'why'.

Sorry Mockba, but that is quite absurd. How on earth is one meant to try to understand why if one doesn't know who?

And in our search for answers it is appropriate to give options to all possible thoughts that may have motivated or guided individuals behind the attacks.

Searching for answers is laudable, posting third rate rubbishy articles is of little help.

We do not evaluate immediately whether they are justifiable or not... but we do consider all possibilities. Is there anything wrong with that?

You should have written this WHEN you originally posted the "article", it would have given you more credibility. Better late than never, I suppose.

Bismillah

Colin,

Perhaps I do not adhere to your rating standards. I read and if i thinksomething is relevant to current events I share it here. It is just someone's opinion... and it doesn't call for action.  

With regards to absurdities - sometimes trying to figure out "why" helps in the process of locating "who"s. Absurd? Not so.

In a way i do regret allowing myself posting more than the "article" in this thread, particularly entertaining b95000, but what is done is done and my apologies if i have insulted, caused confusion or stepped outside of Islamic teachings and manners.  

Thank you MOCKBA.

I understand that it is easy to get inflamed and talk angrily about that which we are passionate about and want to protect. It becomes a worry when we say things that could be taken literally or out of context by others. We all do it, how many times have I heard a mother say 'I'll kill that child of mine!' but they obviously would never harm a hair on the child's head.

However, someone who does not understand that this is just a silly saying may really believe that this is what we do to naughty children and therefore assume it is right for them to do the same!

It is perhaps a simple way of showing what I mean but I hope the point comes across. If we understand more about cultures and faiths (including our own) it would help us all get along and stop this terrrible misunderstanding. Things can be taken out of context or misinterpreted easily. It happens when people read the Bible and the Koran all the time. A minority extract only the parts that they can make fit into what they want to believe.

I really want to make an effort to understand as much as I can about as many people as I can. From what I have seen so far, so do many in these forums. I think it is great that you can have honest discussions here. Sometimes things are bound to get heated when people believe passionately in different things.

Ultimately though, it is good to ask searching questions of eachother, I think this is healthy. The one asking learns more from the other, and the one being asked gets the chance to really search and make sure he/she fully understands what they are talking about and can feel the satisfaction of knowing that the questioner is hearing the truth of their faith first hand. I enjoy reading these discussions and am learning much!

Clara

Bismillah

I am not thinking about the bombings and i am refusing you provoking me to think about the bombings. I have other more important things that i would like to spare my thinking to. I am open to discussions whenever i feel like, but not arguments for the sake of argument alone.

My message is clear there is no place for intentional violent killing of innocent civilians in Islam, there is no apology from me as a Muslim for evil i have not committed.

What is your message on this board other than picking and planting provocative questions and ridiculous statistics on current "economic prosperity" of Iraq that you have managed to deliver so far? 

Bismillah

Sharing information without indulging in contemplation over it for an extended period IS possible. And that is why I am no longer interested or thinking about London bombs... there were more Muslims killed after the London events took place, yet not many of your kind seem to be seeking understanding over "why" it is happening.

If you or we were to go by logic alone there is plenty. "You bomb my people - I bomb bomb yours". Not logic? However, I prefer not to go by logic... and therefore do not accept this kind of thinking. Making hypothetical statements without necessarily supporting them is not wrong.  

"Ward Elcock, former director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, has warned that a terrorist strike on Canadian soil is not a question of "if," but "when."

This is a little bit more serious than my hypothesis.Why is he so confident? Is he planning such attack?  If we were to implement your reasoning... he is. 

As far as your blessings are concerned - thank you, and same to you.

Bismillah

b95000 wrote: ...your answers have been very unsatisfying to logic - in my humble opinion.

b95000 wrote:  That is my humble opinion. I think morality and goodness is backed up by logic.  The eye for an eye bombing that you're speaking of may seem logical but they aren't logic backed by morality and goodness.

You request logic. Once it is presented you request backing of morality and goodness... Next you'll be picking on what is "moral" and "good"...

Only Colin holds a point worth looking at here.

The Brits are not Americans. They think and, almost always with a fair head. They have struggled for a few centuries and developed a very humane system, based on the Rule of the Law.

An average Brit doesn�t have to hide behind his Union Jack, he holds far better things to occupy his mind. He also knows that life does exist even beyond �eekaanami�.

And, it's not measured just in dollars.

Well over 67% Brits were against the war and now against this occupation. They had sacked Blair outright. But an unfair British electoral system has granted him just a few more years of the 10 Downing Street residence, with or without that trademark smirk. I would hate to mention what a good majority of my friends say of Blair's masters.

The �Muslim leadership� in Britain has failed to provide any credible lead or role models for the young British Muslims. These boys have watched brutal occupations of Kashmir and Palestine with full US / UK support for the past few decades. Now, Iraq and Afghanistan have been added to this list.

It�s extremely sad but Blair has put Britain in the firing line.

The Iraq eekaanami point has made me wonder if Iraq has just been granted the franchise to make Boeing spare parts to add some extra revenue streams that did not already exist?

Or, is it that the Iraqi eekaanomi was blocked by the sanctions and the recent release has provided some feel good figures for the White Wash House spin?

Sorry, I won�t like to mention here what the world calls IMF.

Have a guess. You may get there.

Mockba, I had thought you were from a richer and a serious culture. I would never have thought that a man of your calibre would get so engaged with someone just enamoured with his own words, empty questions, answers, explanations and sommersaults.

It's not discussion, but something I won't wish to mention in this august forum.

My friend, is it ever possible that some other wisdom also exists beyond this ad hominem thingi? There are some people who are not brought up in a "success or nothing" oriented climes. It will help you to know that it's a norm in some natural, friendly, loving and hugging cultures to stand up and say "I was wrong" or to admit when we become a bit answerless.

I am not a not success driven person or some browny point collector. So, these Anna Frued promoted definitions fail to apply here. I had noticed your  empty questions, answers, explanations and sommersaults in some of your posts and I had genuinely tried to avoid a futile exercise of going into any lengthy parleys.

Yes, I love a dialogue with anyone in this world. I would love to engage with you provided you start with an open mind about the sheer fact that "the US is quite capable of making some very ghastly mistakes" + "and everything you watch on the Fox News doesn't become the gospel truth"

I am willing to spread my understanding to meet your's but are you sure that our understanding will result in true peace?

Pray, tell me how would you do away with the wars? You know it as well as I do that the U S corporate oligarchy will perpetuate a war as and when it decides. And, whenever it deems fit for its interests.

Or, did you mean just a One Way Street Non-voilent solution? Do you mean, just the Muslims should throw up arms, go hands up and that's it? And, that will set in true peace?

Yaar, I sincerely wish you could sometime study the nature of Afghan and the Iraqi tribal societies. Not as you may wish them to be or, as they should be in some ideal cuckoo land, but as they happen to be at this point of time. It will be futile to go into any great scholarly discourse about what may or may not have formed them. It's the first test of wisdom for us to be able to see how our world is. Not how our world should be.

They won't accept any occupations, least of all of full time supporters of Falesteen suppression. We are just a wee different from Americans. Dollars or economy is not the be all and end all of our lives. We just want our lands back. Period. You will keep getting as much oil as much you want. We can't feed it all to our camels, my friend.

Sometimes, you also have to see, if not feel, how the other world feels.

I feel poor Mockba was actually pointing to this and seems to have riffled some Anglo-American feathers!

If we are so keen to fight Terrorism why do we shirk from a sensible diagnosis of this ailment?

Tube bombs 'linked to Iraq conflict'

� Thinktank says war boosts al-Qaida
� Blair dismisses connection

David Hencke, Westminster correspondent
Monday July 18, 2005
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ - The Guardian

Britain's involvement in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan contributed to the terrorist attacks in London, a respected independent thinktank on foreign affairs, the Chatham House organisation, says today.

According to the body, which includes leading academics and former civil servants among its members, the key problem in the UK for preventing terrorism is that the country is "riding as a pillion passenger with the United States in the war against terror".

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The report says the security services, diverted by fighting the IRA over Northern Ireland and the rise of animal activists committing terrorist acts, failed to give priority in the early 1990s to monitoring Islamist terror activists setting up in Britain, so "the British authorities did not fully appreciate the threat from al-Qaida".

In the most politically sensitive finding, Chatham House, which used to be known as the Royal Institute of International Affairs, concludes there is "no doubt" the invasion of Iraq has "given a boost to the al-Qaida network" in "propaganda, recruitment and fundraising", while providing an ideal targeting and training area for terrorists. "Riding pillion with a powerful ally has proved costly in terms of British and US military lives, Iraqi lives, military expenditure and the damage caused to the counter-terrorism campaign."

This finding runs counter to the line from Downing Street, which has sought to detach Iraq from the London attacks.

On Saturday, Tony Blair said the fanatics who struck in London and launched other attacks around the world were driven by an "evil ideology" rather than opposition to any policy, and that it would be a "misunderstanding of a catastrophic order" to think that if we changed our behaviour they would change theirs.

Amid the growing debate over proposed terror laws in Britain, the Tories will today offer Charles Clarke, the home secretary, the chance to speed up new laws, provided that the government delays until next year proposals to revise the control orders system for detaining suspect terrorists.

David Davis, the shadow home secretary, will ask the government to bring forward full details of one of the most divisive parts of the legislation - the indirect incitement to terrorism offence - by a month to September, so MPs and human rights groups such as Liberty can study them properly before the bill is published in October.

Mr Davis will make his offer during talks today with Mr Clarke, which will also be attended by Mark Oaten, the Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman. Lord Falconer, the lord chancellor, indicated yes terday that the government might be prepared to speed up anti-terror measures if it could reach agreement with the opposition parties. He told BBC Radio 4's Westminster Hour: "We should not rush into things because these things need careful thought. But if the opposition parties and the police can reach a consensus with us, then we can do it very quickly."

Azzam Tamimi of the Muslim Association of Britain told a rally in Russell Square, near the scene of the bus bombing, that the Muslim community would not suffer in silence for the crimes of the suicide bombers. "We will continue to talk, we will continue to write and we will continue to challenge the government. I say to Muslims, do not bow to pressure to keep accepting those pointing fingers at you.

"Say, 'No, I'm not responsible for what happened on July 7. My heart bleeds, I condemn it, yes, but I did not make those boys angry. I did not send those bombs to Iraq. I do not keep people locked in Guant�namo Bay and I do not have anything to do with Abu Ghraib, except to denounce it.' Politicians, see what you have done to this world?"

I suggest you go and Ask Lewis Lapham or any number of other sensible American thinkers, writers and a wee more than 78% of your country's academics. Instead of forcing a known Neo-Con lines down our throats.

Now don't distort it into your typical bull of "Sasha condones 9/11 or any other killings" or something to that effect. For, I do not condone any killings at all. Unlike you I have seen enough killing to go off it at least for my lifetime. Many times over those 2,881 killed in those towers.

Read some serious American publications. Just try and find out. Is it ever possible that the US deeds (or, just their occupation of Saudi Arabia) may have made some enemies somewhere in the world?

Try and think. I know it can be a bit difficult for Americans, but I promise anyone can think just if we try a little harder.

I know how you feel at your global plight in such an hour. I also understand your desire to paste everything on someone, something else, somehow.

I have my sympathies with Americans and also with their burning desire to see just the brighter things about their country and themselves. I do understand the reasons for this, but that would be for some other topic, sometimes.

Just for the Forum in general, not particularly for anyone special attempting hard to burry ones head in the sand.

Ministers warned of Iraq link to UK terror
Richard Norton-Taylor, Vikram Dodd, and Hugh Muir
Wednesday July 20, 2005
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ - The Guardian

Fresh evidence emerged yesterday that the government was privately warned by the intelligence agencies that the conflict in Iraq could provoke terrorist acts in Britain and compound anger among young British Muslims.

A month before the July 7 London bombings, security and intelligence officials warned that "events in Iraq are continuing to act as motivation and a focus of a range of terrorist-related activity in the UK".

The warning was issued by the Joint Terrorist Analysis Centre (Jtac), British officials confirmed yesterday. Sections of the report were published by the New York Times newspaper. A link between the government's foreign policy and disillusion among young Muslims - strenuously denied by ministers - was also made in a paper prepared for Tony Blair on the orders of the home and foreign secretaries last year.

The paper, Young Muslims and Extremism, which included input from the security services, said British foreign policy "seems a particularly strong cause of disillusionment amongst Muslims, including young Muslims".

It referred to "a perceived 'double standard' in the foreign policy of western governments ... in particular Britain and the US".

The paper describes "perceived western bias in Israel's favour" as a long-running grievance. It adds: "This perception seems to have become more acute post 9/11. The perception is that passive 'oppression', as demonstrated by British foreign policy, eg non-action on Kashmir and Chechnya, has given way to 'active oppression'." The war on terror, Iraq and Afghanistan were all seen by a section of British Muslims as being acts against Islam.

"This disillusionment may contribute to a sense of helplessness with regard to the situation of Muslims in the world, with a lack of any tangible 'pressure valves', in order to vent frustrations, anger or dissent," said the paper.

Despite this warning last month, Jtac lowered its terrorist threat level on the grounds that there was thought to be no single "group with both the current intent and the capability to attack the UK".

But it added: "Whilst the threat from al-Qaida leadership-directed plots have not gone away, many of our current concerns focus on a wide range and large number of extremist networks and individuals in the UK and individuals and groups that are inspired by, but only loosely affiliated to, al-Qaida or are entirely autonomous.'

"Some of these have the potential to plan UK attacks and it is also possible that lone extremists or small groups could attempt lower-level attacks."

The mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, yesterday suggested the four suicide bombers were prompted - at least in part - by long-standing grievances.

During his weekly press briefing at City Hall, Mr Livingstone said he could not read the bombers' minds but added: "I think there were several levels that led those young men to come to London to kill. One is 85 years of western intervention in the affairs of the Middle East."

He said the west had repeatedly meddled "because we wished to preserve oil supplies", adding: "I think for the last nearly 60 years we have this terrible running sore of the dispossession of the Palestinians which is the single most important wound in the Islamic psyche."

The mayor also rounded on media critics of the Muslim cleric Yusef al-Qaradawi, amid reports that the controversial theologian is coming to Britain for a conference early next month. Newspapers accuse the cleric of supporting suicide bombing and have called for him to be banned.

Egypt said yesterday that Magdi el-Nashar, a detained chemist wanted by Britain for questioning over the London bombings, had no links to the attacks nor to al-Qaida.

A group called Abu Hafs al Masri Brigades, an al-Qaida-linked group, threatened yesterday to launch "a bloody war" on the capitals of European countries that do not remove their troops from Iraq within a month.

The group has no proven record of attacks, and experts have doubted its claims in the past.

It's not a racial defect. I have never said the Americans are good at nothing. It's not at all racist, just a simple fact of life that most Americans fail to see anything beyond the Stars and Stripes.

If you thought for just a moment, you would have known what the Iraqis think or, feel, about the American troops on their soil is the reality. Not what the Americans are told by their TVs or what their admin wants them to think.

Okay, I wont call Americans stupid.

I will call them liars (at the UN) thieves (of Baghdad treasures + $8.9 Billion of Iraqi money) and war criminals now trying to push occupations down our throats as some liberations. Third class cheats (Enron and others) + IMF.

Whisper wrote: Okay, I wont call Americans stupid. I will call them liars (at the UN) thieves (of Baghdad treasures + $8.9 Billion of Iraqi money) and war criminals now trying to push occupations down our throats as some liberations. Third class cheats (Enron and others) + IMF.

This $8.8 billion passed through the new Iraqi government ministries in Baghdad while Bremer was in charge and now they're doing an audit trail to figure out exactly where and how it was spent.  Should it completely surprise us that under extreme duress not all of the money has a receipt in triplicate?  And the point is, it's being investigated...not the kind of thing 'theives' do, you idiot.. And yet Sasha wants to manipulate this sort of things, to propogandize it into labeling all 'Americans' - all 300 million of us - thieves.  That's just special Sasha...how crazy is your logic?

Okay, I wont call Americans stupid.

Nice mud on the wall Sasha while you sling more at 'Americans' - you really are shameless in your racism, aren't you? 

It�s best to climb down that wall, now. You may slip trying to score just a few more muddy points.

You are lucky. You have met a very cool headed, travelled and quite an educated Pathaan. I just use some innocent words for the Americans. You would come to know some real vocabulary if not outright �something else� if you ever ran into some real Iraqis or Afghans delighted by your liberations.

Okay, you tell me what shall I call someone with no knowledge of the global problems and who is trying to solve it just with Military Might?

Well, that wouldn't be racist now, would it?  You are so special Sasha..and so self righteous too...how do you pull that off?  How you just throw mud and racist labels around without any proof. 

I am more prone to taking Prof Galbraith, Lapham, Chomsky or the informed global opinion of US butchery than just bank on your word in support of your own words.

You seem to be quite a nice young man. Do you really wish to discuss the global affairs with us? Or, push the Neo Con line? We have heard that LP a number of times. Somehow it did not get anywhere on the global hits scene.

It's very hard to discuss something with someone who wants to push on us that as if the Palestinian issue is home baked by some Imams' sermons or som eother kind of fertile imagination. My friend, Holly Wood is not here at our end. It's in the US.

Lets talk issues instead of trying to score points. It will be good for all of us to KNOW terrorism. ONLY then we would be able to deal with it. Any other way you will fail exactly like these past four years.

Wow Sasha, you're becoming less and less pleasant as we go.  Sensible linkage is that people all over the world experience poverty, injustice and oppression to various degrees.  I see you focusing inordinately, almost obssessively (and you're not alone in this) on the Palestinians. 

Come to the simple straight question Bruce. Instead of belittling Palestinian occupation for your own agenda.

Face my question if you are man enough, Mr. Liberation.

Didn't realise that people in Karachi, Bangladesh or Rio were under occupation like the Palestinians? At least try and make some sensible links. Or, you are not aware that the Palestinians are occupied my dear Mr Liberation?

I understand you now. I used to think that you are here for something really innocent like scoring a few points. Anyone can run into that game if we have lost out on scoring any in our childhoods. That's not really a bad thing.

But an analysis of your posts indicates that you hold some deep rooted sad hatred of Arabs and the Muslims. You invest all your words in belittling anything and everything that's even remotely related to either of these two.

I had even toyed with the idea that perhaps you are just as misinformed as most other Americans are about this Palestinian issue (one of the primary causes of terrorism) and you have lumped this brutal occupation just with the plight of Rio and Karachi kids.

I was grossly wrong. Any shameless psychopathic scoundrel with such deep rooted symptoms of Ethno-phobia would belittle anything and everything in our world just for a psychological fix and a dot of personal gratification.

I am glad it's just in words. Our history is full of idiots who even started horrific wars for just that.