Islamic values and Western 'culture'
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: General Islamic Matter
Forum Description: Discuss Islamic matters/issues that not covered by other sub catagories
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14352
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Topic: Islamic values and Western 'culture'
Posted By: candid_new
Subject: Islamic values and Western 'culture'
Date Posted: 11 March 2009 at 10:36pm
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I would recommend Muslims who live in West not to adopt Western culture also because it is overly materialistic. Most people there practice religion merely as a pastime, if at all. General conception amongst people there is that religion is an impediment to progress. That has more to do with their experience with their religion, Christianity. Once, Christianity even forbade Western explorers to investigate if the world is round. Christians progressed as they broke the shackles of their retrogressive religion. In fact, number of atheists in the West is rapidly increasing.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p01s02-ussc.html - http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p01s02-ussc.html http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2895 - http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=2895 http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2009/03/survey-shows-us-growing-less-r.php - http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2009/03/survey-shows-us-growing-less-r.php Muslim experience has been much different. Muslims prospered when they were firm in their faith, they fell after they began to take their prosperity for granted and forsook their religion. |
Replies:
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 9:49am
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Muslims that dont live in the west, and are in thier 'muslim' countries need the above advise as well. . . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 9:58am
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I agree Chrysalis. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 2:08pm
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"Once, Christianity even forbade Western explorers to investigate if the world is round. Christians progressed as they broke the shackles of their retrogressive religion." Isaiah 4022 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
Funny we knew in Old Testament times that the earth was round.
There wasn't a word for "sphere," only "circle" in Hebrew back then. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 4:24pm
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Salaam
Here is my two dirhams on the subj: Western values to me worth exporting: Green politics, better universities, focus on literacy, freedom to criticize one's own leaders, some shot at health care for the elderly, the orphans, the homeless; i.e, here in Morocco - if you ain't got the dosh or the connections, you are pretty much screwed, short of individual contributions (zakat) - compare that to the beauty of the NHS! (Come to think of it, the American right wing would ironically love this system; poor and helpless fend for themselves, little to no help from the government.) Western habits difficult to escape it's presence: The promotion of alcohol and drug abuse as sexy through it's celebrities, the non-stop marketing of sex to sell products, the widening of the generation gap, the weakening of the family, toxic food intake... |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 8:25pm
True. But fortunately, masses haven't yet significantly adopted Western culture. It's only the jackass elites who compete with each other in proving how westernised they are. |
Chrysalis wrote:Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 8:33pm
Developing countries cannot afford Green technology because it is currently too expensive. And it's pointless to have 'better' universities when the overwhelming majority of children don't even have access to primary education. Only the elites can access higher education, who, anyway, fly off to entertain foreign hosts instead of serving their country. Therefore, poorer countries should focus on primary education instead of higher education. Besides, I am surprised you didn't include democracy in the list. |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 9:29pm
It was not just the flat earth theory, Christian clergy was also opposed to the heliocentric theory of solar system. |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 10:21pm
Peace everyone and a happy Friday to you (as I hear a local muzhadeen fiddling with his microphone, preparing for the fajr adhan....)
Green politics and green technology aren't the same thing. "Supporters of Green politics, called Greens, share many ideas with the ecology, conservation, environmental, feminist, and peace movements. In addition to democracy and ecological issues, green politics is concerned with civil liberties, social justice and nonviolence...Green politics also encourages political action on the individual level, such as ethical consumerism..." Boycotting the slow rise of the Marjane (our Wal-Marts) in support of our ancient markets would be a decent example of green politics here. Your addition of the importance of primary schooling is a critical one. But the comments about the "pointless" addition of universities don't apply to this Muslim country, at least; since Morocco has an available, satisfactory primary education system in place. A major problem (being violently protested in Rabat as we speak) is the brain drain leading to educated people to escape to the west for their university education. Regarding primary schooling: Keeping them in school is the biggest problem; dropouts at ten and eleven. And so, a needed culture of literacy like the UK and the US enjoy. Including democracy...? real democracy? that would be redundant for me to have included, since Green politics is informed by participatory democracy; "emphasizing local, grassroots-level political activity and decision-making." Regarding the kind of democracy that America enjoys today, I wouldn't offer it to a dog. It seems to consist of voting in to power leaders whose well-being and economic health will depend on coddling undemocratic and oppressive fascist regimes throughout the world as well as relying heavily on destroying democracies in the countries it's survival depends on. |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 13 March 2009 at 1:31am
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Jamal, when was primary education made free in Morocco? According to Stephen P. Heyneman
countries in the Gulf states spent four times more on students in higher education than on students in basic school. Tunisia, Jordan, and Morocco spent correspondingly about 8, 14, and 15 times more on a student in university than on a student in compulsory education. Though it might be argued that this is due to the costs of higher education, governments that spend more than ten times per student in higher education tend to ignore the importance of compulsory education's importance in personal and intellectual development. Concentration of resources on higher education clearly indicates state's intent on safeguarding the monopoly of elites on education (general population which don't have access to primary education can in no way take advantage of higher education without primary education). This is usually true for states which are ruled by authoritarian regimes that takes great pleasure in licking the boots of foreign powers who, in turn, wants to keep the country backward and control it with its native 'elite' a** lickers. |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 13 March 2009 at 5:10am
I am not aware of a time it wasn't, though I can ask about. Primary school (arabic: mteedahee) - about a 15 dollar entry cost, then free. Secondary school (ar: adaddee) -about a twenty dollar entry cost, then free.
Well said. And if that was the problem here, it would be an important point to consider. But one of the main problems to tackle is the cost of what it is worth to a family to keep their kid in school compared to the worth of having them take a job. There are other problems as well concerning the quality, but that is another road of discussion.
At least over here, there is very little of this concentration of resources on higher education. Ifrane, Rabat, not much else - but generally everyone who can flee, does. Blows the idea that the educated elites are a monopoly, since they usually leave for good; hence, the hot topic of brain drain. On the contrary, the Moroccan government's intent to promote it's literacy movement is a very real thing here; our sorely needed inclusion in the EU has been affected by the amount of illiteracy in the population.
It's interesting to consider the above in the light of the former POTUS having his female lapdog lick Olmert's boots while he gloated over this power during the Gaza ghetto bombing. |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 13 March 2009 at 9:48am
You seriously believe EU will let in a despotic monarchy , that too an Arab one! The monarchy has very little popular support. It is fully dependent on its foreign clientele for survival. It's focus will always be on entertaining its foreign clientele rather than welfare of its subjects. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 13 March 2009 at 2:36pm
You seem very knowledgeable about Morocco, I wonder are you Moroccan, do you live there?
My husband is Moroccan and his education was completely free. He has dual degrees in Linguistics and History and is very well educated.
There are currently 7 constitutional monarchies in the EU, and Morocco is a constitutional monarchy.
Morocco
Main article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco_and_the_European_Union - Morocco and the European Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco - Morocco submitted an application to join the EU (then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Communities - EEC ) in July 1987, but it was rejected by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council - European Council later in the year on the grounds that it "did not consider Morocco a European country". Although there are factors such as the developing economy or unresolved border issues with several of its neighbours and the occupation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara - Western Sahara , a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Association_Agreement - European Union Association Agreement similar to that applied to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia - Tunisia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria - Algeria is implemented between http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco - Morocco and the EU. The Moroccan government argues that a substantial amount of its territory is already part of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union - European Union , specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain - Spanish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclave - enclaves in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Africa - Northern Africa that Morocco says is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_territory - occupied territory . "In 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner_for_External_Relations_and_European_Neighbourhood_Policy - EU commissioner for external relations , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benita_Ferrero-Waldner - Benita Ferrero-Waldner declared that "we [EU] already have a very, very close relationship with Morocco, and we're studying giving them even more advanced status."
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 13 March 2009 at 6:10pm
The monarchies have nominal powers in EU countries, unlike Morocco. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 7:43pm
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I think also that without 'higher' education people cannot move forward both scientifically and technically. Knowledge of both is moving at a high,rapid rate. Also this knowledge, through the grace of Allah, can help solve many problems, especially with the environment. I saw a building today in the US completely powered by wind, and that is in DC region. You need to have both, general education and specialized.. like for instance medicine. Not everyone is meant to go to higher education. That is fine. But this knowledge is critical. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 7:50pm
| Higher education is important but it should not be at the cost of primary education of the masses. Primary education is important for reforming the society. Technological advancement is ineffective without social progress. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 8:02pm
So when everyone is a high school graduate but there are no doctors or scientists society will progress?
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 8:26pm
You have comprehension problem, it seems. I suggest you re read what I posted. I said higher education is important, but primary education is more important than higher education. I meant if nearly all the educated people of the country are doctors and engineers, but the literacy rate is low and the masses are ignorant and poor, the country still can't make significant progress. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 3:43am
Thats not neccassarily true. There is no such primary vs higher education formula. You cannot put one up against the other.
India - does not have literacy of the masses - yet has a significant higher educated class, and despite its many faults, seems to be developing.
Phillipines - where the majority are literate, does not seem to be developing/improving like it should.
It also cannot be guaranteed that education will neccassarily eradicate poverty and ignorance.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 1:12pm
True, but then Muslim culture is underly materialistic (which is probably why http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12329 - Muslim countries do not have strong economies ). I would recommend that each culture try to learn from the others. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 1:50pm
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And take the good from every culture and leave out the bad. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 3:15pm
http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z245/mberescik/?action=view¤t=chrome2.jpg">
 |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 3:44pm
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WOW!!! What a beauty! .....got to lower my gaze....she's way off my league :-(
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 7:41pm
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Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 8:53pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Al_Arab - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Al_Arab |
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Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:00pm
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/31/lamborghini-flown-from-qatar-to-london-and-back-for-an-oil-ch/ - Lamborghini flown from Qatar to London and back... for an oil changeby http://www.autobloggreen.com/bloggers/jeremy-korzeniewski/ - Jeremy Korzeniewski on Jul 31st 2008 at 7:04PM http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1493291.ece">
 In a virtual slap to the face of eco-friendly drivers worldwide, a wealthy Sheikh went to the trouble of shipping his oddly-hued Lamborghini from Qatar to London and back... for an oil change. That is 3,250 miles each way, or about the total distance likely traveled between oil changes in the first place. It's bad enough that the Lambo LP640 is a high carbon-emitter in the first place, but this act truly shows utter disregard for the environment. The shipping companies seemed to agree, with an airport worker saying, "This car doesn't have a carbon footprint � more of a crater." A London-Heathrow cargo handler added, "It would have been far more efficient to fly mechanics out there." |
Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 5:06am
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So has anybody figured out yet what this so-called Western 'culture' is?
Seems we're all falling, nay, gleefully jumping HEADLONG into the imperialist creation/concept of the Clash of Civilisations, or the non-argument of West Versus East. The happy slapping on of labels ensures we continue blindly on, tripping over our morals and sweeping aside the universal values of humanity in a race to discredit and unfavourably compare the 'other'. The very premise of the thread is flawed. You can not juxtapose Islamic values with Western 'culture'. It's like comparing a bicycle to a plane. Try again, only this time, try discussing the differences between Islamic values, and those upheld by the likes of Bush/Blair etc., who believe 'they hate our values'. Please define the values cherished by (for the sake of argument) the American general public, and compare them with the values cherished by the general populace of Morrocco, or Pakistan, as examples of Islamic states. It will quickly become obvious that no matter what your religious beliefs, you cherish the ability to provide safety and shelter to your family, the ability to provide them with nourishment and comfort, and a few enhancements, such as the freedom to enjoy a walk in the park or to listen to music. The Western decadence, the sinking into the Dantesque level of hell so much of this post-modern existence displays, has nothing whatsoever to do with religion, values or culture, and is far from limited to non-Muslim societies (witness the photos above), it has everything to do with the collective selling of our souls which has been encouraged and promoted, if not in writing, then more powerfully by example. Still, looks like we'll be forced to take a long hard look in the mirror right about now. |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 6:25am
| As Salamu Alaikum Brothers and Sisters,I can only comment on American Culture I have never stayed in any another country.I can say that when I was growing up they maid us pledge an aligence to the flag of the United States of America.An in this pledge is a verse "one nation under God indivisible with liberty a justices for all".They say this but, wont allow you to pray in public schools because there is a speration between Church/Religion and State. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 9:29am
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oh you could pray in school just not out loud.. lol
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 16 March 2009 at 1:12pm
The illiterate masses will be healthy and have a good infrastracture, something which the countries, especially the U.S., which seem to focus on primary education lack. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 12:47am
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People living in a Muslim culture are in a comfort zone - thinking they are better of ...
In reality challenges in muslim as well as non-muslim societies are different, though it is hard to argue weather they are fewer within muslim dominated societies.
To name a few -
Media and entertainment is so common in muslim societies as well - at least in India the television and cinema are both awful - which hardly anyone is avoiding ...
Music is not allowed in Islam, but it can is common in many-many muslim homes.
Gossip and talebearing is a grave sin, but its common - very common - so much that its a big challenge for someone who wants to keep out of it.
Gluttony - Don't tell me those who have plenty don't overfeed themselves or don't waste.
If they are not showing their flesh does not mean they are not looking ... and why are not all muslim women covered - willingly, when they are living within their own culture - one can find women arguing endlessly how unnecessary or cultural, but not islamically obligatory is the hijab.
Not all muslims are praying five times a day - and this is extremely sad about muslims dominated societies.
Muslims are not doing business with honesty.
Thsese are just a few that come to my mind, but there are many more I beleive, .... all these drawbacks are not seen on individual levels but on a social level.
Being westernised is a problem, but its not the only problem that challenges a muslim - neither do I see it as a lot bigger than other challenges.
To think one's faith is safe if they are not westernised, is just and image of safety - that is all.
On the otherhand if one wants to practice islam, there is no place where one cannot. It all depends on ones conviction and faith. I think one can become a better muslim when there are challenges because they have to take an active stand in maintaining their faith.
When one is in a company of five muslim friends who don't observe prayers on time, its harder to get up and pray rather than when one is with five non-muslim friends - I think.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 9:58am
Don't be silly. If the people are illiterate they won't know how to maintain hygiene, therefore they will have greater health problems. What's the point in having good infrastructure if there are not enough skilled workers that can be employed in the factories. |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:30am
Yes. Our greatest problem is lack of education. It weakens our ability to communicate. I am surprised you made no mention of our unwillingness to selflessly help poor Muslims in need, as one of our most serious weaknesses.  Perhaps, our next greatest problem.
Who thinks so? 
True. It depends a lot on upbringing too.
That might be true for adults but, children and teenagers simply don't have the foresight and wisdom to value their faith, in spite of parental guidance.
HAHAHAHAHA So Muslims should avoid each other and live with non-Muslims to be stronger in faith 
In my experience, living with 2 Muslims, who are regular in prayers, made me more observant of prayers than when I was living with non-Muslims. |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:43am
Did you read the links that I posted? Rich Muslims are certainly getting decadent and immoral, but most Muslims are honest and put their faith in God. AFAIK, people in West dismiss religion as superstition. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 4:30pm
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"Don't be silly. If the people are illiterate they won't know how to maintain hygiene, therefore they will have greater health problems. What's the point in having good infrastructure if there are not enough skilled workers that can be employed in the factories."
This actually made me laugh out loud. Illiterate is not the same as st**id and it certainly doesn't equate with filth.
The Prophet Mohammed was illiterate and he was chosen by Allah to spread His message and be the best example of mankind. He also managed to build an empire and keep very clean while doing so.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 5:52pm
What non-sense! Illiterate people simply don't have information as to how to maintain basic hygiene. How'll they do it, unless they are taught how to do it? Here in India illiterate people don't use soap and toothpastes. They don't know smoking and drinking is injurious to health. AIDS is widespread in Africa than in developed countries because of prevalence of illiteracy there. Even in US AIDS is more prevalent amongst Blacks because many of them are not adequately educated. In The Health of Nations, Sagan described studying historical data collected from almost 150 nations spanning the gamut from pre-modem to highly complex post modem societies, searching for the characteristics that would best predict life expectancy. After applying statistical tests to determine which factor(s) appeared to be causal, he found that "by far the most consistently powerful predictor of life expectancy was the prevalence of literacy." The association of literacy and health has been reported repeatedly in analyses of the post World War II decline of mortality in developing countries and of mortality differentials within their populations. The strength and significance of this relationship appear similar across cultural regions and time. http://db.jhuccp.org/ics-wpd/exec/icswppro.dll?BU=http://db.jhuccp.org/ics-wpd/exec/icswppro.dll&QF0=DocNo&QI0=281034&TN=Popline&AC=QBE_QUERY&MR=30%25DL=1&&RL=1&&RF=LongRecordDisplay&DF=LongRecordDisplay |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 9:31pm
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I am not sure what part of my post you pronounced as nonsense, the fact that illiterate does not necessarily mean dirty or the fact that The Prophet Mohammed was illiterate.
Perhaps these people in India are more interested in the struggle to purchase food than soap and toothpaste. Let's see, brush my teeth, feed my starving baby....... hmmmmmmmmmm
Apparently you have never been to Europe where the literacy rates are very high and lack of oral hygiene runs rampant. You might also be surprised at how many highly educated people live in complete filth.
In fact, living in filth is so prevalent among the highly educated there are TV programs dedicated to showing just how filthy they are. Please see:
Foreign versions
http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/100/index.jsp - http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/100/index.jsp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Clean_is_Your_House%3F - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Clean_is_Your_House%3F
Notice that there are versions in all of these "high literacy rate" countries:
Foreign versions
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 9:38pm
HAHAHAHA. So, by your logic, Muslims should all be illiterate because Prophet (SAWS) was also illiterate. And also ride camels. 
|
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:26pm
Population-wise and availability of resources India is more comparable to China than Phil. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:37pm
I'm not the one stereotyping here.
Candid's greatest hits:
illiterate people are dirty
black people are uneducated
westerners are overly materialistic, decadent, immoral, and believe religion to be a burden
rich Muslims are decadent and immoral
Israel and America are evil
Pakistanis "Majority of the people are illiterate. They have limited access to information and hence, they can't think for themselves."
Indians are hypocrits, filthy, and fascists
European women are selfish and materialistic
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 11:09pm
Please spare me your lunacy. It's not my job to educate you. But, I hope this helps. http://www.read.org.za/LiteracyHub/StatsFacts/BenefitsofLiteracyfactsheet/tabid/2092/language/en-US/Default.aspx - http://www.read.org.za/LiteracyHub/StatsFacts/BenefitsofLiteracyfactsheet/tabid/2092/language/en-US/Default.aspx http://media.www.dailytoreador.com/media/storage/paper870/news/2004/09/13/Opinions/Walker.Effects.Of.Illiteracy.Felt.By.Even.The.Literate-1279187.shtml - http://media.www.dailytoreador.com/media/storage/paper870/news/2004/09/13/Opinions/Walker.Effects.Of.Illiteracy.Felt.By.Even.The.Literate-1279187.shtml |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 12:34am
Hey, you forgot to mention that I also said Westerners are promiscuous and drunkards.
Besides, you should, at least, take care to quote me accurately even when you do it out of context.
|
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 2:53am
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Candid, have you ever been out of India? Just curious.. as Mark Twain once said " be careful of health magazines you may die of a misprint" be careful about what you read.. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 8:00am
| I haven't been out of India, but I have interacted with many foreigners and Indians, who have been out of India, in person. I have also chatted with many people from around the world on IRC. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 5:25pm
"Hey, you forgot to mention that I also said Westerners are promiscuous and drunkards. Besides, you should, at least, take care to quote me accurately even when you do it out of context.  "
Sorry, thought I was fairly accurate. Which statement are you questioning?
Perhaps:
"Even in US AIDS is more prevalent amongst Blacks because many of them are not adequately educated."
or maybe:
"Here in India illiterate people don't use soap and toothpastes. They don't know smoking and drinking is injurious to health."
or: "Rich Muslims are certainly getting decadent and immoral" I can go on.... I wonder how all of the above observations fit in with the "Muslims are NOT racists" topic you started? Perhaps it should have been "Some Muslims are NOT racists".
But you should be proud, you form an opinion about large groups of people, and you are not afraid to voice it...
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 19 March 2009 at 10:15pm
|
"Even in US AIDS is more prevalent amongst Blacks because many of them are not adequately educated." What do you think about the link below http://www.aegis.org/news/dmg/2004/MG040413.html - http://www.aegis.org/news/dmg/2004/MG040413.html "Here in India illiterate people don't use soap and toothpastes. They don't know smoking and drinking is injurious to health."
or: "Rich Muslims are certainly getting decadent and immoral" Since when did rich Muslims and itlliterate Indians become a race? |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 March 2009 at 12:55pm
You know, if you choose to denigrate people, whether it is their race, their intelligence, their morality, it's up to you.
In the west we have a saying: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
At this point I choose to say nothing at all........ ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 1:55am
| Oh, thanks a lot for choosing to say nothing because you have nothing sensible to say. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 5:07am
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Oh, thanks a lot for choosing to say nothing because you have nothing sensible to say.
Hmm that is your opinion... she has lots to say that is sensible... now you on the other hand... well... considering you've never been here.. its like I keep my mouth shut when discussing India much, never been there, can go on what I read, but how accurate is anything anymore.. you of course, know about everyone.. all over the world.. like discussing African - Americans... how many do you know?? Now many African- Amricans are 'illiterate' and would be the first to tell you how AIDS is transmitted.. they are not dumb people. UGGH You are operating in stereotpes abound... ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 8:00am
| So, you won't believe the Pyramids exist unless you personally visit them? |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 3:53pm
 ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 4:01pm
I can say that I know the pyramids exist, but I can't say that I know each and every tunnel, brick, or artifact unless I have personally visited them and spent many hours exploring.
I know rich Muslims exist but I can't say they are decadent and immoral because I don't know each and every rich Muslim.
I know that African-Americans exist but I can't say that they are illiterate because I personally do not know each and every one of them.
I know that illiterate people exist but I cannot say that they are all filthy and dirty because I don't know each and every one of them.
And those that I do know from each of these groups, and others you mentioned, are not the stereotypes you labeled/libeled them to be. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 5:43pm
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I can believe things exist, but i cannot comment on them in the same way. For instance, I talk more about my experiences from Pakistan as I have been there 3 times. I speak little of African Muslims and their culture. I can read about it, but it is nowhere the same. I was just as the masjid in DC this afternoon and the people there were 95% African American. And I don't assume that they are less educated than I. That is living by stereotypes THAT ARE NOT ALWAYS ACCURATE. We as Muslims need and should work to eliminate these ideas from our minds. We cannot improve the Ummah if we only see people in false categorized groups and not just Muslims. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 25 March 2009 at 6:15am
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Candid_New . . . . If I may be candid:
I have been reading this thread from an objective point of view - and sorry, you sound really ignorant and foolish . . . not to mention close-sighted and . . . . fish-in-a-pondish.
Seriously!!! Illetracy does not equate with bad hygiene! You DO realise that good muslims can be perfectly illetrate - yet perfectly hygenic!!??!! So can nonmuslims!!!
Also, education or the ability to read and write - does NOT make you hygenic! Its a matter of upbringing and personal taste. Well educated ppl can have bad hygiene too.
Perhaps you are confusing hygiene with poverty? (lack of proper toilets, drainage, toothpaste affordability?)
And perhaps you should be careful with stereotyping, it simply CONFIRMS the stereotype that nonmuslims have of us muslims i.e. close-minded ppl. As a muslim, it is your moral obligation to behave in a nice manner that befits/represents Islam.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 25 March 2009 at 10:07am
| As Salamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatu.Islamic Values and Western 'culture'.I personally never experienced any other cultures first hand as far as traveling to another country.Living in America I always try (Inshallah)to incorperate Islamic Values into my everyday life.The only way I realy know what Islamic values are is by following the examples of the life of Prophet Muhammed(Saw). |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 11:24am
I am willing to be instructed. I can't be wrong just because people don't agree with me.
Illiteracy and poverty are closely interrelated. However, we should not confuse between the two. A poor educated person usually maintains a better hygiene than a well-off illiterate person. And not everyone is a Prophet, by the way. Fyi... http://www.unilever.com/Images/es_Lifebuoy_promotes_handwashing_tcm181-13301.pdf - http://www.unilever.com/Images/es_Lifebuoy_promotes_handwashing_tcm181-13301.pdf
That sounds silly. If you say it confirms the stereotype, it also implies that you claim it is true. You are stereotyping, too. You are responsible for same flaw you you are accusing me of. |
Posted By: candid_new
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 11:29am
Oh! such touching attachment in this mutual admiration society brought tears in my eyes. 
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 1:42pm
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Oh! such touching attachment in this mutual admiration society brought tears in my eyes. Did it, how SWEET. LOL ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:00pm
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Oh! such touching attachment in this mutual admiration society brought tears in my eyes. It's probably just the fumes from all of those unwashed illiterate people thronging the streets where you live.... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 March 2009 at 5:31am
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"I have been reading this thread from an objective point of view -
and sorry, you sound really ignorant and foolish . . . not to mention
close-sighted and . . . . fish-in-a-pondish.
LOL !!! Chrysy - you are, as we say here, 'such a geg'. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. In some regards you are as ignorant, foolish, close sighted and 'fish-in'a-pondish' as people can possibly be. LOL I believe part of the reason for that is that you try to be too objective too often. A little subjectivity is a good thing some times. It helps us walk in the shoes of the other person, really know and understand them, and not make foolish and ignorant judgements on things about them we really cannot possibly understand from our myopically objective or subjective perspectives. You are so mindbogglingly ignorant on some issues, and not the only one here, that this will simply go straight over your head I know. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 29 March 2009 at 1:04pm
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I think we all have our own ponds.. Mine has pretty fish in it..
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 31 March 2009 at 7:05am
'ppreciate the feebdback. , and I just HAD to google up 'geg'. . .
though ofcourse I dont think 'gegging' on public forums is rude . . .  ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 31 March 2009 at 10:01am
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It's just an expression here, Chrys. Belfast mainly. Something I could do with at the mo - a 'geg' - a laugh. Difficult and painful saying goodbye to people from your life. Not easy resigning to 'Allah's will,' when your heart feels like it's going through a shredder :) Anyway - cya later C be good :-) |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 31 March 2009 at 5:59pm
Mine is chocolate......mmmmmmmmmmmm ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 02 April 2009 at 7:04am
I think there was a film called "On Chocolate Pond" Oh, wait...here you go: http://chocolatepond.com/ |