As'Salaamu Alaikum brothers,

I intend on making this discussion solely for BROTHERS ONLY but I understand the need for women to add their two cents in. I first have to say before anything comes out of my mouth is that women are God's most beautiful creatures and that they are indeed a blessing to mankind. They are indeed the maintainers of our society and the shoulders in which the world is held upon. However, I believe there is a growing problem among some women in our community. I believe that Western soceity has an effect on the spiritual ideologies of our women.

Since 9/11 Western feminism has looked at the Afghan women with sadness and has since, helped the Afghan women struggle to their feet in freedom and independence. It has come with a price. We all have to understand that Western culture is different from all other cultures. It has taken many generations for women to gain rights, and unfortunately it came at the expense of lives of many brave women. The problem with feminism is that it extends beyond its own definition and is over analytical of culture.

Many Muslim feminist (and I can name one here) who believe that not only women get equal rights but in marriage should share power and have equal footing as men. Everything in feminism is equal, equal, equal. Funny in the decleration of Independence it says "All men are created equal." On a macrocosmic scale this however is true, all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. But on a microcosmic scale this is not so.

All men and women are not equal. All men are not equal because not all men's body are proportional equal. Not all of men are equal in height. Not all men are equal in behavior. The smae can be said for women. This also can extened in relationships. As the Qur'an said men are the protectors of women. This same concept is also true in the animal kingdom. Before a lion mates he must first show is courage and power and must thus fight off other competing lions for the sake of the woman. The winner gets the spoils of battle which is the woman. However barbaric it sounds this to a lesser extent is the reality of humanity. Too many women are breaking away from the naturality of human behavior and are taking a more radical approach by not associating with this concept.

When women argue culture they argue based on pre-conceived bias notions and not on objectivity. When women look at other women practicing their faith (or perhaps their culture) they look at disgust and are thus strangers in the unknown world of foreign culture. Not all women of course but those who claim to have free and equal minds. Under the illusion of feminism they claim that independece and independent think is objective but when one views another culture it is not objective.

I have to say I'm sick of women complaining about what other women do or behave because if the world was perfect we all would agree. I can cite many Muslim women in Africa are have been mistreated and though, I have cited these incident numerous times it has never changed anything. I pray that God will judge the right and condemn the wrong. To you women who claim to fight for injustice please take your illusions elsewhere.

Assalamu alaikum Brother Israfil,

I do appologize profusely for putting "my two cents" in a thread you wished to be for brothers only.  Please don't be angry or annoyed with me .  I am afraid I have about as much control over my big mouth as Brother Arabian has over a different part of his anatomy.   (We all have our demons to deal with!  )

Just wanted to say that I do agree with your post, for the most part.  There certainly seems to be a growing influence on the sisters from western "feminist" types.  It always breaks my heart when I see sisters who are walking around dressed like westerners, their faces painted like clowns, ruining their backs in those ridiculous high heels...

On the other side of it, are the fighters for women's rights who don't understand the cultural difference, as you have pointed out so well in your post.  Trouble is, they always seem to find some woman from the group they are trying to "liberate" who will speak out against her culture/homeland/religious practices...

I just wanted to add that it is not only the women.  Many men, Muslim and non-Muslim support this non-traditional role of women.  Imagine how most men support this - it is because they can have their cake and eat it too!

A man can have a wife who cooks, bakes, cleans, does laundry, has babies, raises children, runs the kids all over to their activities and so on and so forth, and wow, what a bonus, she'll go and work for a living too!  Talk about having it made - I mean the men.  The women who go for this so called equality thing have really shot themselves in the foot. 

Now they must be some kind of superwoman, to take on two roles instead of one, the traditional housewife and a contributor to the family finances.  Is it any wonder many men support this kind of thinking?  How many western men, Muslim or not, look for a wife who will NOT work, who will stay home and be a housewife?  Most would rather have that and the extra income her outside work can bring in. 

I don't know how prevelant this is becoming in non-western countries, but I would bet it is spreading there as well.  These women who want this strange kind of "equality" are being supported by more than just other like minded women.

The other great supporters of this new kind of equality for women are the (mostly) men, business men, who are profiting greatly from the spending these working women do.  When western women went to work to keep the factories running during World War II, the business world discovered a goldmine - women who work spend tons more money than women who depend solely on their husband for spending money!!!!!  The business world got into the business of convincing women that working outside the home was the best thing for them.

Now, look at all the working women, these who think they are so "equal".  They work for less pay than men in many jobs.  They spend all their hard earned money on all that stuff they don't need: makeup, nail polish, hair dye, weekly trips to the hairdresser and nail salon, the latest fashions, the coolest shoes, an even bigger (gas guzzling) car, a bigger house, the newest gadget......

Let me make it clear that I in no way hold anything against the women who must work, nor against those necessary female careers (doctors, dentists....).  It is the ones who don't need to that have made it bad for the rest of us.

Brother, you say "too many women are breaking away from the naturality of human behavior".   You are so right.  But, a big part of the problem is that there are so many men who also support this for the financial reasons I have stated.  We are all in this together and the blame lays on both sides of the gender divide.

So, what are some solutions?

Again, I appologize for sticking my two cents in - but I bet you knew I would .

Oh, and I do hope you don't think I am complaining .

Peace, ummziba.

As'Salaamu alaikum sister Ummziba,

Your opinion is much appreciated here and though it was for the brothers I'm glad you made some additions to the forum post. I will make a response (not contrary to yours because I obviously agree) but I have to clean up the house right now but I will come back and comment.

Wa'alaikum Salaam,

After reviewing there is nothing more in addition to what you've said that I can add, but the only thing I just want to mention again is that I believe that Muslim as well as men need a group session regarding this issue. Not so much as the issue of blaming wstern society but acknowledging that our community is changing. I would hope that these issues regarding the infiltration of ideologies in our community are non-Islamic ideologies and should be discarded. Unfortunately we have those who believe these ideas. Again I have to address those who come online to complain about certain issues while themselves are not doing about those issues. I did also want to add more regarding the expectancy of a man when a women wants to engage in the dialogue of marriage but that is another issue.

Israfil wrote: As'Salaamu Alaikum brothers, I intend on making this discussion solely for BROTHERS ONLY but I understand the need for women to add their two cents in. I first have to say before anything comes out of my mouth is that women are God's most beautiful creatures and that they are indeed a blessing to mankind. They are indeed the maintainers of our society and the shoulders in which the world is held upon. However, I believe there is a growing problem among some women in our community. I believe that Western soceity has an effect on the spiritual ideologies of our women. Since 9/11 Western feminism has looked at the Afghan women with sadness and has since, helped the Afghan women struggle to their feet in freedom and independence. It has come with a price. We all have to understand that Western culture is different from all other cultures. It has taken many generations for women to gain rights, and unfortunately it came at the expense of lives of many brave women. The problem with feminism is that it extends beyond its own definition and is over analytical of culture. Many Muslim feminist (and I can name one here) who believe that not only women get equal rights but in marriage should share power and have equal footing as men. Everything in feminism is equal, equal, equal. Funny in the decleration of Independence it says "All men are created equal." On a macrocosmic scale this however is true, all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. But on a microcosmic scale this is not so. All men and women are not equal. All men are not equal because not all men's body are proportional equal. Not all of men are equal in height. Not all men are equal in behavior. The smae can be said for women. This also can extened in relationships. As the Qur'an said men are the protectors of women. This same concept is also true in the animal kingdom. Before a lion mates he must first show is courage and power and must thus fight off other competing lions for the sake of the woman. The winner gets the spoils of battle which is the woman. However barbaric it sounds this to a lesser extent is the reality of humanity. Too many women are breaking away from the naturality of human behavior and are taking a more radical approach by not associating with this concept. When women argue culture they argue based on pre-conceived bias notions and not on objectivity. When women look at other women practicing their faith (or perhaps their culture) they look at disgust and are thus strangers in the unknown world of foreign culture. Not all women of course but those who claim to have free and equal minds. Under the illusion of feminism they claim that independece and independent think is objective but when one views another culture it is not objective. I have to say I'm sick of women complaining about what other women do or behave because if the world was perfect we all would agree. I can cite many Muslim women in Africa are have been mistreated and though, I have cited these incident numerous times it has never changed anything. I pray that God will judge the right and condemn the wrong. To you women who claim to fight for injustice please take your illusions elsewhere.

Well, let me be the first to add my 2 cents. First you are negative by adding the little qipp about the 2 cents and then turn around and praise us. What a contradiction you make. Secondly, you as a man cannot hope to even understand what a woman let alone millions of women think or feel. Also, have you ever even taken the time to ask a woman how she feels spiritually besides your mother?

And let me get this straight. Western Feminism helping the Afghan women gain rights and independance is a bad thing? These women should have been kept oppressed and uneducated because........why? And over analytical of culture? Culture is what hurts religion. Culture is what is practiced first anywhere in the world then comes the religion. And usually culture incorporates religion not religion incoporates culture.

Also, when the constitution says that all men are created equal under God it means that MEN are the whole of the human race, not just a man or men in general. And no, all men and women are not physically equal but mentally they can be. Oh! And let's talk about the animal kingdom. Maybe you do not watch enough nature shows. In the Lion kingdom the female still chooses if she wants the male lion even after the fight. Please, do me a favor and research this. And once the female accepts to be part of the group then the fat lazy male lion sits in the sun while the female hunts and attacks prey. So, whom is really taking care of whom here? Also, to liken Human women to the animal kingdom is not only rediciolous it is DISGUSTING. And saying that women are getting away from this concept shows that you not only do not like women, you do not respect them very much either. God created us different from animals when he gave us the ability to think and reason. And you think women should be more like animals with their thinking and behavior?

Also, again, everyone who has any religion at all believes that their religion and cultrue is the best.  Muslims look at the USA with disgust for their culture and religious beliefs and The USA looks at the Islamic nations with disgust for their culture and religious beliefs. There is no justice in ignorance.

And if you are sick of women complaining then stop listening. But, of course, you are the only one that God has give the gift to to understand what all women think and feel in their cultures and religion and in spiritual matters, right?

And what, pray tell, do you believe the injustices that women are fighting for are?

Lameese

Assalamu alaikum Sister Lameese,

I ask you in all sincerity: did you even read the posts here?  It seems as if something has made you mad and you are just blowing off steam instead of using your reason.  Please realize what the issues are here.

Israfil wrote:  Not so much as the issue of blaming wstern society but acknowledging that our community is changing. I would hope that these issues regarding the infiltration of ideologies in our community are non-Islamic ideologies and should be discarded. Unfortunately we have those who believe these ideas.

Anyone with their eyes open can see that un-Islamic ideologies are definitely infiltrating our community.  This is what is being discussed here. 

The brother was not keeping women out - what he wants is for the brothers to have a discussion on these issues, and I do hope that this happens, it is needed.

You are very mistaken if you think that Brother Israfil does not like women, his posts throughout this board make it very clear that he admires women.

Please, Sister Lameese, I do ask you to reconsider your angry outburst and look at these issues with reason.  Getting angry is certainly counterproductive, don't you think?  Are you aware of the Islamic view of the different roles of men and women as set down by Allah in the Qur'an?  We are not lions, we are created by Allah as two halves of a pair, different but completing one another.

Peace, ummziba.

As'Salaamu Alaikum

First and foremost sister Lameese with all due respect I would apprecite you toning down your comments as far as my character. I would also appreciate you not mentioning my mother or anything that I've stated. Normally, when people try to insult me or call me a "hypocrite" I use a (reductio ad absurrdum) but in this case my point is quite clear.

Sister since its incomprehensible for you to get my points let me break down what I mean (in this case I'll restate it for you since you didn't obviously get it the first time). When I talk of western feminism I'm talking not only the ideology of what feminism stands for but the implications of western feminism and its address towards Muslim women. First let me say that I'm an advocate of feminism neither Eastern or Western but the concept of what it stands for. But when it comes to cultural ideology I have to disagree.

You mention:

Western Feminism helping the Afghan women gain rights and independance is a bad thing? These women should have been kept oppressed and uneducated because........why? And over analytical of culture? Culture is what hurts religion. Culture is what is practiced first anywhere in the world then comes the religion. And usually culture incorporates religion not religion incoporates culture.

You didn't acorrectly address any points that I've made here so obviously you didn't get what I said. First off, Western feminism didn't start taking a look at Afghan women until post 9/11 so for you to make some statement as if the Western feminist movement has made such historical peaks is not only an inaccurate notion its illusionary. However the women in Afghan have no been liverate by the oppression, created by the former regime. I say such liberation "comes with a price" because now,  through such liberation Western feminist are now looking at the culture of Islam.

Many feminist in whom I've studied for reports as well as argued against for my Ungraduate degrees have said that there is a thin line between Islam and oppression. I have read reports that the "covering of women" in Islam is symbol of oppression and a symbol of a woman being silent. I have studied as well as read the reports by Western feminist that if a woman was educated she would abandon the "veil" because the woman in light of her own knowledge would recognize its negative symbolism.

Now what I was addressing was these remarks in my statement saying that "liberation came with a price" because the ideologies of Western feminism has infiltrated in the Afghan culture. As a Muslim man I'm compelled to defend Muslim women because the type of criticize they are using is criticism towards Islam so it effects all of us.

You said:

"Also, when the constitution says that all men are created equal under God it means that MEN are the whole of the human race, not just a man or men in general. And no, all men and women are not physically equal but mentally they can be."

You are right historically the constitution initially was intended to be gender bias of course, but my point wa snot to address the geder bias but the dialetical sayings which I tried to make examples out of. MEN are not the human race but mankind is as God has stated in the Qur'an. Both men and women make up the human race. So in this respect I didn't understand what you took from what I was trying to say. You also noted my assertion of humans allocated towards the animal kingdom. Again, what is wrong with that? You took offense but did you take time to realize that we humans belong to the animal kingdom? Did you take time to look using empirical reasearch to see that our compositions and behavior are results of "animal instincts?" Again what I was using here were metaphors to explain my point not call a woman or a man an animal.

All women and men biologically are created equal with the same compositional features e.g cheek bones, arm legs fingers etc. I have to say I disagree however with you saying that men and women are equal mentally. No we are not. All men mentally are not even equal so how can you can make a comparison with men and women. How a woman thinks in her everyday life is different from a man. Science even says that how men and women go about things are not the same because we use different areas of our brain. Now I would have agreed with you if you said men and women of like minds are the same because this is true. Upright Muslim men and women think alike, because the goal is to Allah. This is the truth.

Funny how you said that "I'm sick of women" because I give nothing but praise to women, my comments were aimed at women who complain a lot about the world but dont do anything. You obviously from your remark "And if you are sick of women complaining then stop listening."

You obviously dont seem a goal getter and from what I take from your responses my answers were aimed at towards you. Listen woman,  I was raised by a woman, a family of women, for over 23 years of my life. My mother was a single parent and as a young child I was very observant analytical and very curious of how women were being treated. Til today I am still the same way. Most of my good friends are women and many of them think as I do. For you to say that I should stop listening to complaining women does not only show again, your ignorance in overlooking what I originally wrote but shows your own lack of ambition in yourself.

Its not like what I said here I made up over night it took 23 years of my life to understand what I know now and yes my comments were very general based on my understanding of today's Muslim women. I never claimed to say "I am saying the truth" these are my comments. Also if you read the title heading "the problem of SOME women" I put SOME in caps to stress that the women I am addressing was not addressed to every women.

My sole purpose in this forum was to address the problems to the brothers certain problems with certain women. Again to be "liberated" by a western ideology is a non-Muslim ideology because the condept of liberated encompasses western tradition therefore any addition beyond its ma8instream beliefs would contradict Islamic teachings e.g To take veil off for reasons of so-called oppression. Muslim women are not oppressed, not ignorant and are God's best creatures on earth. If you talk to sister Nausheen and other sisters you'd realize I have nothing but love and respect for women so again now that I've made it clear to you and now that you've made your ignorance clear here to everyone I can now deposit your "two cents" into my Zakat fund.

I do however appreictae the comments made by Ummziba because she obviously got what I said. Of course she could disagree with me and that would be fine. She also was polite enough to address that my post was aimed at men only and nice enough to be apologetic about it.  Again I reiterate my post that MEN and WOMEN are not animals I was merely making metaphorical remarks. If you disagree with what I said now I dont care because this forum is for us men I do appreciate your feedback but if you have read the heading you would have read "For BROTHERS ONLY." As'Salaamu Alaikum

As'Salaamu Alaikum

First and foremost sister Lameese with all due respect I would apprecite you toning down your comments as far as my character. I would also appreciate you not mentioning my mother or anything that I've stated. Normally, when people try to insult me or call me a "hypocrite" I use a (reductio ad absurrdum) but in this case my point is quite clear.

I said nothing that you did not profess to know yourself. I meant no disrespect against your mother. I was merely stating that maybe this is where you get the majority of info about women. As far as toning down, never again.

Sister since its incomprehensible for you to get my points let me break down what I mean (in this case I'll restate it for you since you didn't obviously get it the first time). When I talk of western feminism I'm talking not only the ideology of what feminism stands for but the implications of western feminism and its address towards Muslim women. First let me say that I'm an advocate of feminism neither Eastern or Western but the concept of what it stands for. But when it comes to cultural ideology I have to disagree.

Incomprehensible for me to get your points? I think not. I think I got your points very well. Maybe it is you that does not understand what he is talking about.

You mention:

Western Feminism helping the Afghan women gain rights and independance is a bad thing? These women should have been kept oppressed and uneducated because........why? And over analytical of culture? Culture is what hurts religion. Culture is what is practiced first anywhere in the world then comes the religion. And usually culture incorporates religion not religion incoporates culture.

You didn't acorrectly address any points that I've made here so obviously you didn't get what I said. First off, Western feminism didn't start taking a look at Afghan women until post 9/11 so for you to make some statement as if the Western feminist movement has made such historical peaks is not only an inaccurate notion its illusionary. However the women in Afghan have no been liverate by the oppression, created by the former regime. I say such liberation "comes with a price" because now,  through such liberation Western feminist are now looking at the culture of Islam.

I think we both know that Western Feminism has been looking at Islamic women and opression for quite some time, whether it be in Afghanastan or in Saudi Arabia or in the USA. Whether it be from former or current regimes. Or Whether it be from their families (ie. brother or father) or from their husbands.

Many feminist in whom I've studied for reports as well as argued against for my Ungraduate degrees have said that there is a thin line between Islam and oppression. I have read reports that the "covering of women" in Islam is symbol of oppression and a symbol of a woman being silent. I have studied as well as read the reports by Western feminist that if a woman was educated she would abandon the "veil" because the woman in light of her own knowledge would recognize its negative symbolism.

What you are dealing with in any culture is ignorance. For someone to say that there is a "thin line between Islam and oppression" has never even tried to study Islam. It is a broad sweeping statment without anything to back it up Islamically. Now on the other hand, the culture does show "oppression" toward it's women, whether it is from tradition or culture. Also. let's talk about hijab, the "veil". When a woman chooses to cover herself and it is for Allah then that is a good and a right thing to do. When she is forced to wear it by her father or brothers or husband then that is oppressive. She has to feel it in her heart and want to wear it. Not just wear it because someone if forcing her to or demading it of her. It is her soul that she has to worry about and it is her choice, not the husbands, brother or father.This is oppressive. 

Now what I was addressing was these remarks in my statement saying that "liberation came with a price" because the ideologies of Western feminism has infiltrated in the Afghan culture. As a Muslim man I'm compelled to defend Muslim women because the type of criticize they are using is criticism towards Islam so it effects all of us.

So, you are saying that the Afghani women have no minds of their own, and are not intelligent enough to pick themselves up and start again? They have to have Westerners to help them every step of the way? The Afghani women I know are very strong women and can think for themselves and after having to live that way, now know what they want and do not want.

You also noted my assertion of humans allocated towards the animal kingdom. Again, what is wrong with that? You took offense but did you take time to realize that we humans belong to the animal kingdom? Did you take time to look using empirical reasearch to see that our compositions and behavior are results of "animal instincts?" Again what I was using here were metaphors to explain my point not call a woman or a man an animal.

I took offense because it was aimed at women. We might be part of the Animal Kingdom but we do not need to act like Lions and Lionesses. This, again, is why God gave us a brain and the ability to reason. Your thought was that we (women) need to take notice of this in the Animal Kingdom and base that on how we should act because you think it is the right way to be. Also, as I said, in that part of the animal kingdom, the Lioness decides, not the male.

 Now I would have agreed with you if you said men and women of like minds are the same because this is true. Upright Muslim men and women think alike, because the goal is to Allah. This is the truth.

Oh My! Maybe I needed to clarify that for you.

Funny how you said that "I'm sick of women" because I give nothing but praise to women, my comments were aimed at women who complain a lot about the world but dont do anything. You obviously from your remark "And if you are sick of women complaining then stop listening."

Again, I said if you are SICK OF WOMEN COMPLAINING. Not that you are just sick of women.

You obviously dont seem a goal getter and from what I take from your responses my answers were aimed at towards you. Listen woman,  I was raised by a woman, a family of women, for over 23 years of my life. My mother was a single parent and as a young child I was very observant analytical and very curious of how women were being treated. Til today I am still the same way. Most of my good friends are women and many of them think as I do. For you to say that I should stop listening to complaining women does not only show again, your ignorance in overlooking what I originally wrote but shows your own lack of ambition in yourself.

Oh Brother, you need to calm down your tone when talking about my character? Remember? Now I will call you hypocrite. And do not call me WOMAN again! I HAVE A NAME! And NEVER tell me that I am not ambitious little boy. I am the one that carries my family! I worked up until the last 4 days before I delivered while my husband who is Muslim and did not work and sat on the couch.I did all the housework, cooking and cleaning too!  I worked 12 hour night shifts to make enough money to be able to SUPPORT my family and have enough health insurance to be able to have prenatal care. I hold 3 degrees from 3 different colleges and on of those degrees is in WOMENS RIGHTS, ISSUES AND LAWS. You do not know me. I am not uneducated nor AM I IGNORANT. In my job, I have to make life altering decisions in split seconds and I have to know what I am doing!

Its not like what I said here I made up over night it took 23 years of my life to understand what I know now and yes my comments were very general based on my understanding of today's Muslim women. I never claimed to say "I am saying the truth" these are my comments. Also if you read the title heading "the problem of SOME women" I put SOME in caps to stress that the women I am addressing was not addressed to every women.

Compare that to my almost 40 YEARS AS A WOMAN! And your heading is oppressive. SOME women? Let's hear you talk about SOME men now. And I doubt that there are many women who just complain. When you get to your thesis, try doing it on all the women that complain and who you think are doing nothing about it. You will be suprised what you will find. your 23 years..........

 If you talk to sister Nausheen and other sisters you'd realize I have nothing but love and respect for women so again now that I've made it clear to you and now that you've made your ignorance clear here to everyone I can now deposit your "two cents" into my Zakat fund.

You do that little one. Do you feel like a big man calling me ignorant? Now does that sound like you are trying to silence me? Oppress me?

If you disagree with what I said now I dont care because this forum is for us men I do appreciate your feedback but if you have read the heading you would have read "For BROTHERS ONLY." As'Salaamu Alaikum

I will remind you of that next time you post in the Women's corner too.

Lameese

Bismillah

Brothers and Sisters in Islaam. Lets reduce the heat. There is noone propogating oppression of women and noone advocating supremacy of men. What's the fuss. There is no necessity of fighting for some "rights" as much as there is in establishing proper teaching and understanding of Islam and its reflection through our actions.

Yes, there are cases of women overreacting and there are cases of men not fulfilling their responsibilities towards their wives and family... but all these are outside of the scope of Islam. These are examples of ignorance...

Sister Lameese and Brother Israfil please re-view your emotionally driven posts" and consider apologising to each other for at least having called each other hypocrites. That will be the best way and the way of the best.

It may not have been completely correct for Brother Israfil to limit the discussion to brothers' participation as much as it wasn't completely correct for Sister Lameese to ignore his request... As such my "two cents" go equally distributed: one cent to Brother Israfil and one cent to Sister Lameese. Hope women and men are feeling better now, insha Allah.

MOCKBA wrote:                                                                                            Bismillah  Yes, there are cases of women overreacting and there are cases of men not fulfilling their responsibilities towards their wives and family... but all these are outside of the scope of Islam. These are examples of ignorance... Sister Lameese and Brother Israfil please re-view your emotionally driven posts" and consider apologising to each other for at least having called each other hypocrites. That will be the best way and the way of the best.

You are right MOCKBA.

Israfil I am sorry for calling you a hypocrite.

Lameese

Western feminism has been watching Afghanistan since 1996. I know - I was reading about it myself that year, reading stuff written by other women. Bush and the US military have been watching Afghanistan since 2001. They didn't care about Afghanistan before that point because the Russians were no longer there.

The best thing Western feminism can teach women from places like Afghanistan is that they are allowed to decide their own lives - whether to work, or not to work, wear the veil, or not, be a Muslim (or not), etc, etc. WOmen have their choices and NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING should be forced upon them.

NOTHING.

Not a husband, not a loony father, not a loony father in law, not a pregnancy, not a house that's a cage, not unemployment, not their religion, not their clothes. NOTHING.

Let them make their own decisions, work to achieve their own honour (and not have someone else's twisted, inappropriate versions of honour forced upon them), have the husband they want, have the job they want, stay home if they want, have kids if they want, have no kids if they want, etc.

Kim...

So far according to Lameese's personal message I'm arrogant and ignorant and also she denied calling me a hypocrite even though she said I was one but I do however apologize I thought that men can talk about this because it is the mens section of chat. But I see its not. I like how people brag about degrees and stuff. Lameese I again apologize for whatever you took from what I said but you assume too much and your over analytical about certain statments that I've made. By overanalyzing my comments regarding the animal kingdom and the like and by you falsly assuming I referred to men and women as lions and lioness was a false assumption.

You've mention some statements regarding me thinking Afghan women cannot think (or you might have said 'Do I believe Afghan women cant think on their own') was also false. Never in what I've said here I said that all I wanted to convey to the brothers was that I want for our community is to get back to its spiritual roots. What men have done to women in Afghanistan is not only barbaric its an abomination and its unislamic. I wanted us men to address these issues in hopes of getting a man's perspective on things. I wasn't intentionally trying to leave women out but sometimes I believe that men must discuss issues amongst themselves.

If this were general chat I can understand moderators as well as your regular general chatters to comment and I wouldn't have used the words "For brothers Only" but I appropriately made that title here under the assumption that only the brothers respond. I don't see why moderators need to jump in but I understand and comply with the rules here. As for making more post I think today might be the last day for me because I have much to do at school and job wise so I again apologize for any misunderstandings and as Lameese wrote "May God forgive me for my ignorance." BTW the "two cents" was meant as a joke. In the back of my mind I knew sisters would come into the forum to comment.

Wow Israfil! Your arrogance astounds me!

And no MOCKBA  I will not take that back.

Israfil wrote: Lameese how bout me showing MOCKBA your remarks towards me calling me stupid or what not this is IC not kindergarden grow up!

Stop Pm'ing me and I will stop telling you about your character!

Lameese

I didn't know that you can hear babies on this website, the last message I sent was my last and this is my last speaking here. You can now complain all you want Sister Godspeed.

Assalamu Alaikum

Brother Israfil, I realize I�m a woman and that your post was intended for brothers; however, I think I have some insight into why your post received such a heated response.

First, regardless of whether you meant it to happen or not, your choice of thread heading was bound to get some reaction.  This does not imply that I think it deserved what it got.  However, at the very least, the title was enough to attract the attention of the sisters (women) of the forum group.  I�m sure the same thing would have happened if a sister (woman) on here had made a thread with the heading �The problem with SOME men.�  It is only natural for people to be interested in what those of the opposite sex are saying about their gender.  It, also, appears to be the case that brothers respond to threads in the �sisters� section with some regularity.  In general, I don�t find anything wrong or offensive about brothers replying to sisters� posts or sisters replying to brothers� post since in the Qur�an it says:

�The believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers practice regular charity and obey Allah and His apostle. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power Wise.� (Qur�an 9: 71)

All of use are called upon to help in the good of Islam and to fight against that which is evil.  However, the manner in which we offer our help is just as important as the offer of help itself.  Allah does not want us to ridicule one another (Qur�an 49:11) nor should we react out of rage. (Qur'an, 3:134; 42:37)

Second, I see many people reacting instead of responding with clear reason and a sincere desire to be a positive contributor to the discussion.  This is not an isolated incident either.  I know it isn�t always easy to respond with the gentleness and merci that Allah commands of us (Qur�an 3:159), especially when we feel that someone has taken a jab at something we feel strongly about; however, sometimes we feel strongly about an issue in a very personal way that really has nothing to do with the intentions of the person who made the post.  Reacting this way could be the result of unresolved issue from our past; it could be that we feel very strongly about a particular issue or cause; or it might even be that we feel personally attacked.  More often than not, we don�t stop and think about our reactions, we simply bring out our �soap box� along with all the ammunition we have stored away in our �let�s get even� closet.  We feel righteous in our actions and, because of this, we feel justified and vindicated in whatever comes out of our mouths (in this case, off the tips of our fingers) at the time.

No, I�m not advocating for a �people pleasing� mindset.  I don�t think that we should simply smile and agree with everything that is posted.  However, I am hoping that as sisters and brothers of faith in Allah, we will start approaching each other in a manner that is pleasing to Allah.   For the sake of this discussion, I would like to list some of the qualities that are ascribed to believers in the Qur�an.

�         Turn to Allah for help (8:62)

�         Show integrity and are just (5:8)

�         Are respectful (4:86)

�         Are gentle and merciful (3:159)

�         Are humble (25:63)

�         Are deeply and genuinely concerned for each other (59:10)

�         Avoid disputes among themselves (4:59)

�         Are tolerant  (7:199)

�         Avoid wrong, and when angered, are forgiving (Qur�an 42:37)

�         Turn away from worthless talk (23:3)

�         Are not overwhelmed by rage. (42:37)

�         Do not ridicule, find fault or insult one another. (Qur�an 49:11)

Given the above list of qualities, I think it more than fair to say that, as believers, we have certain responsibilities when it comes to submitting posts to the forum.  If we are starting a new post, let us reflect upon the topic and our intentions for wanting to discuss it.  Let us turn to Allah for help so that as we write, we do so with integrity, respect, gentleness, humility and a deep concern for one another.  When we read posts, if they stir within us anger or rage, let us take the time to reflect and ask ourselves what is truly at center of our reactions.  In making our responses, let us turn to Allah for help so that we do not respond with rage, ridicule, fault finding or insults.  Let us not engage in worthless talk by veering off the path that Allah has clearly laid for us.  Let us pray for the ability to be tolerant and to be just in our words before we allow ourselves to click the post icon instead of reacting from our gut.  It is far better to take care with what we say than to have someone else have to point out our wrongs.  And although it is never wrong to apologize for hurting someone�s feelings, it is far better to act in a manner that does not lead to the need for apologies in the first place.  Allah commands us to be forgiving; however, the best time to forgive is before we speak so that our words will come out in a manner that is productive instead of harmful.

Third, the issue you bring up in your thread really isn�t about �the problem with SOME women;� but rather it�s about the problem with modernism seeping into Islam.  There is no doubt that this is taking place and as so, it is an excellent topic for SERIOUS discussion.  However, looking at this problem merely from one aspect leads to serious problems and turns the issue into a gender issue instead of staying focused on the real issue.  A topic such as this (modernism�s impact on Islam in the 21^st Century) deserves serious consideration and minds that are not going to allow the discussion to be reduced to a gender war.  I�m not saying that feminism has not had a negative impact on Islam; however, I�m also not going to ignore the fact that it has, in some respects, had a positive impact as well. 

To embark upon such a topic without discussing the negative impact that �modern� brothers or the impact that male dominated oppressive cultures and traditions have played in the current state of affairs in Islam is preposterous.  Extreme reactions (such as modern feminism) are always a counter reaction to extreme actions (such as oppressive cultures and traditions)�they don�t evolve in a vacuum.  The problem with these extreme behaviors is that when they come from outside influences, they do not necessarily help the situation.  The reason for this is that most often, outsiders think the solution to the problem is the way they see best to solve the problem.  Many times they react to the extreme conditions and treat the whole system as if it gave rise to the problem instead of having a sincere desire to find the root of the problem.  In doing so, they usually reject the entire system and go about trying to replace it with an entirely new system (i.e., their system).  I truly believe this is what we currently see happening with the non-Islamic society�s treatment of Islam.  They are not judging Islam based on what is written in the Qur�an, but rather, by what they see happening in the world.  They are not Muslims, nor in most cases do they care to understand Islam, so they don�t know that the oppression and evil they see are the fault of cultures and traditions that are not sanctioned by the Qur�an. Furthermore, because they lack knowledge regarding Islam, they wrongly judge what they see.  Such is the case when a feminist considers wearing hijabb to be oppressive.  Instead of arguing that in some cases it is oppressive (i.e., in cases where a woman is forced to wear it), they argue that wearing hijabb is oppressive in all cases.  Their argument becomes one of absurdity when we consider what it means.  If wearing hijabb is oppressive in all cases, then Allah is an oppressor because it is Allah who is our rightful protector and who have made it a requirement that we wear hijabb.  This is absurd, and it makes a mockery of Allah.  Furthermore, if we allow those who want to �liberate� us from hijabb to be successful, then they will become the oppressors.  I say this because once they rip the hijabbs from our heads; they will be as guilty as those they point their fingers at because regardless of what they believe, there are thousands upon thousands of sisters who wear their hijabb out of their obedience to Allah and not because it is forced upon them.  Hence, if we are denied the right to wear it, then we are as oppressed as those that are forced to wear it.

Forth, I know I might get a lot of flack for saying this; however, I truly believe that part of the problem lies within the Islamic community itself.  Allah warns us repeatedly not to deviate or make innovations to the Qur�an and Hadiths; however, it is plain to see that there are deviations and innovations within Islam due to cultures and traditions in every corner of the globe.  Deviations and innovations are not a new phenomenon to Islam.  If the west is making demands on Muslims to bend (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot), is it really any different that a Muslim community in India or Pakistan or Syria or Afghanistan (this list of countries was not meant as a finger pointer, it is merely a random list of countries that have large Muslim communities and was not meant as a means to call attention to some and not others) which bends the laws of Allah to suit the whims and desires of their own culture and traditions?  The answer is NO.  It only appears to be different because the west is a modern day invasion whereas the other invasions are not longer perceived as such because their deviations and innovations have been assimilated within the fabric of Muslim life within those communities. 

Am I saying that we should allow for this western invasion to happen?  No, we should not.  However, as we are taking stock of this new invasion, we should also take stock of past invasions and start making demands to eradicate the wrong that has seeped into Islam by those cultures and traditions as well.  If we strive to fight injustices no matter where they come from�be it east or west�from within or without�then not only will we improve the state of Islam, we will also show the world that we can solve our own problems. 

We, the believers of Islam, need to start doing work that will help strengthen the deen of those who have one foot in and one foot out of Islam.  Yes, I am speaking of Mu�min.  Do you think for one minute that those who are against Islam turn to true Muslims when they want to show an example of �Islamic� behavior?  No, they do not; hence, we need to be a constraint reminder to those who have lost their way in Islam as to what the right way is.  We need to speak out when we see injustices done by those who claim to be Mulsims.  We much continue to invite them to return to Islam and join us as brothers and sisters instead of keeping company with the unbelievers.  We need to be more active in our communities so that the world begins to see that there is more to Islam than the negative picture the media portrays.  We should remember that Allah commands such behavior of us:

�(They are) those who, if We establish them firmly on the earth, will perform prayer and give alms, and command what is right and forbid what is wrong. The end result of all affairs is with Allah.� (Qur'an, 22:41)

�Ward off evil with what is better. We know very well what they express.� (Qur'an, 23:96)

�A good action and a bad action are not the same. Repel the bad with something better and, if there is enmity between you and someone else, he will be like a bosom friend.� (Qur'an, 41:34)

If we submit our will to Allah, we strive (with the help, blessing and merci of Allah) to create a true Islamic community.  Allah says:

�Let there be a community among you who call to the good, and enjoin the right, and forbid the wrong. They are the ones who have success.� (Qur'an, 3:104)

By definition, this community can be none other than the community of true believers and because it is, it is every brother�s and every sister�s duty to participation in the righting of the wrong because Allah said that we are ��protectors one of another�� (Qur�an 9:71)  This is not the job of the few, the wealthy, or of a particular gender.  It is the job of each and every true believer.   And in being steadfast to this task�this jihad (and I don�t mean this in the media�s negative sense)� we are rewarded by Allah.

�They will be given their reward twice over because they have been steadfast and because they ward off the bad with the good and give from what we have provided for them.� (Qur'an, 28:54)

Allah is Al-Musta'an (The One Who is Called Upon For Help), Al-Hakim (The Wise), Al-Fasel (He Who distinguishes in the best way), Al-Hadi (The Guide), Al-Mufee (He Who keeps His Word).  Let us strive to Submit to His Will because isn�t that what it means to be a member of Islam?

PAZ

P.S. I edited to get rid of some of my typos...I need a proof reader.

Assalamu alaikum,

Very excellent post Sister Khadija!  I might just add that without facial expression or tone of voice, the written word is often misunderstood.  We all have to be more careful in reading posts before we reply!

Peace, ummziba.

Assalamu Alaikum,

Thank you for your kind words Sister Ummziba.  When I feel passionate about an issue, I type my response and then I let it sit for a time and come back to it at which time I go over it again with a conscious effort to remove words and phases that my be hurtful to others.  If I am still unable to find words that are not �biting�, I step away from it a second time to reflect on what is going on inside of me and ask Allah to help guide me before I return to try again.  I may not be able to be 100% successful; however, I know that Allah knows I have made a diligent attempt to not bring harm to others.  I have, on more than one occasion, literally cried after reading some of the comments on this forum, and I�m not talking about comments that have been directed towards me.  It hurts because I feel the pain and see the damage it causes even if the harsh words were not directed towards me.  I really need a place like IC because I don�t have a Muslim community to turn to for support so I will continue to read and post, and to grab the box of tissue when necessary.  But most important of all, I will continue to ask Allah to guide in on the Right Path.

PAZ

If I may interject here, what we Western women saw, and were so concerned about was not women beomg treated as good Muslim women shoud, but women begging on the streets to feed their children when NO OTHER MEANS were available to them BECAUSE they were not allowed to have any other source of income.  THAT was what bothered me. 

I do realize that my above comments do not have much to do with the original post, other than the comments about Afghan women, but I thought it was appropriate because fhe OP raised the subject of Afghan woemn..........

That being said, Western women have long preferred to have a female GP let alone a female OB/GYN.  Any influx of female Muslum Physicians jut increases the chances........

But getting back to the OP point, I do tend to agree.  I have marvelled to see young Muslimahs hanging out at the local mall, in the streets wearing the hijab and eating bacon double cheese burgers from McDonalds.  The impression one gets is that is it all has more to do with culture than religion.  Culture is more easily adaptive.  Religion is not supposed to be.

Rose

rosemary wrote: I have marvelled to see young Muslimahs hanging out at the local mall, in the streets wearing the hijab and eating bacon double cheese burgers from McDonalds.  The impression one gets is that is it all has more to do with culture than religion.  Culture is more easily adaptive.  Religion is not supposed to be.

Peace to you Rosemary,

Yes, you are so right!  That is the problem, "religion is not supposed to be".  Unfortunately today, we see some young Muslims slipping away from their faith while still wearing the outward signs.  Surely these young women who wear a headscarf but eat bacon have not been properly taught the true meaning of hijab (or have rejected it and why they wear the scarf is beyond me).

They obviously don't understand the true meaning of being a Muslim either.  A Muslim is one who submits themselves completely to Allah in everything, their worship, their thoughts and most importantly, their deeds.

Unfortunately, scenes like the one you describe, give the wrong impression about Islam to non-Muslims.  But then, think about it like this: how many "Christians" do you know who go to church every Sunday, give to charity, don't drink or gamble and so on?  These are all tenents of Christianity. 

There are varying degrees of faith to be found in any faith community.  None of us should judge a religion by its adherents (because humans are so fallible), but rather by its tenents.

Peace, ummziba.

As far as I know, the girl who doesn't loses her virginity before marriage is an exception in the West. In the Middle-East, just the reverse is true.

ZamanH wrote: As far as I know, the girl who doesn't loses her virginity before marriage is an exception in the West. In the Middle-East, just the reverse is true.

Assalamu Alaikum,

Brother ZamanH,

It is evident by what you say here and what you have said in other posts that you do not like westerns.  In another post, the one you started titled �Why (and how) women cheat?� you referred to America as �the land of pigs and whores."  In was hard for me to even decide to make a comment to your post because I know that by simply responding to it, you may attack my character.  However, I think that it is unfair for you to compare women from the West and Middle-East this way.  It is like comparing apples and oranges�they may both be fruit, but they definitely are not the same.  If in the west there were laws that entailed sever punishment for having sex outside of marriage or the threat of being killed by a male family member existed, it is highly likely that the rate of premarital sex in the west would be low as that in the Middle East.  You assume that because a woman is not a virgin at the time of marriage that she is unable to be a good wife, a loving mother or even pious in her faith.  You have no right to judge why and how a woman loses her virginity.  There are many cultural factors here that you refuse to even look at.  To you, a woman who has lost her virginity is simply a whore.  But Allah knows all things, He is merciful and He is most forgiving to those who repent. 

It is not the fault of children in western cultures that they have not been raised in Muslim families.  All children are at the merci of their parents and society no matter what corner of the world they were born in.  If you take those exact same women from the Middle East and exchange them for the women in the families in the west and visa versa, guess who the virgins would be?  Did you know that according to the Qur�an that even a prostitute who repents to Allah and then bows and submits her will to His Will is as chase as any other woman at that time�despite the fact that she is not a virgin and that at one point she sold her body?  Furthermore, where in the Qur�an does it state that in order for a man to marry a woman she must be a virgin?  Tell me this, how many of Muhammad�s (pbuh) wives was virgins at the time he married them?  Even when Muhammad (pbuh) spoke of what is the best quality to look for in a wife, he never mentioned virginity�her wealth, her family status, her beauty and her religion were the only characters that He mentioned.  He said that a man should chose a woman based upon her religion or otherwise he would be a loser.  (Hadith 027, Bukhari is where you can find the Hadith which I am referring to.)

Also, not all western women are feminist and not all western feminist are out of line with what the Qur�an states.  You are too hasty in your judgment because you already had a preconceived notion of what the �west� is through and through.  The definition of feminism is �Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.�  This makes Allah the first and ultimate feminist because Allah gave �social, political, and economic equality� to all men and women in the Qur�an.  Furthermore, this means that all faithful Muslims (both men and women) are feminist as well, that is, they believe in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes.  However, because of two social problems not all women experience the equality that Allah has ordained for them.  1.) Only part of the world population has embraced Islam, and 2.) Even in societies where Islam is the predominate faith, social customs and traditions have robbed many women of their Allah given rights.   Why are you so down with these women?  Why don't you come down on the men that have created societies in which women had to fight to get what Allah says is rightfully theirs?

We have got to stop with this dogmatic stereotyping of others; it is wrecking havoc in the world.  Inshallah we all will see the clear signs of Allah and begin to look at the world with more merci and tolerance.  This doesn�t mean I am asking anyone to condom wrong actions, but to say that because some in a country, faith, or group have committed wrong actions and then slip into the conclusion that everyone in that country, faith or group has done the same is simply wrong.   Allah will give every soul it�s due on the Day of Rising �whatever its due, whatever it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly.� (3:161)  So, why can�t we do the same and judge a person by his/her actions and not by some dogmatic stereotypical mindset we have about a country, faith or group?  When we do this, we become the wrongdoers.

Then you are the people who are killing one another and expelling a group among you from their homes, ganging up against them in wrongdoing and enmity. Yet if they are brought to you as captives, you ransom them, when it was forbidden for you to expel them in the first place! Do you, then, believe in one part of the Book and reject the other? What repayment will there be for any of you who do that except disgrace in this world? And on the Day of Rising, they will be returned to the harshest of punishments. Allah is not unaware of what you do. (2:85)

PAZ, Khadija

Khadija1021 wrote: In was hard for me to even decide to make a comment to your post because I know that by simply responding to it, you may attack my character.

Walai Kum As Salaam,

You need not have worried. I consciously try to keep off from personally attacking others as long as I am not attacked first.

Khadija1021 wrote: You assume that because a woman is not a virgin at the time of marriage that she is unable to be a good wife, a loving mother or even pious in her faith.

I hope you understand that she cannot, at least,  be expected/trusted to be a good wife (just in case, you agree that women who commits adultery  can't be a good wife).

Khadija1021 wrote: It is not the fault of children in western cultures that they have not been raised in Muslim families.  All children are at the merci of their parents and society no matter what corner of the world they were born in.

Yes, I agree. My point was such a state of affairs (i.e widespread fornication) is highly unislamic (and is worse than most of the other unislamic actions/scenarios). And I believe Western feminism is directly a major cause of it.

Assallamu alaikum,

Khadija, I want to thank you for your post, it said everything that I wanted to.

Zaman, do you hold men to the same standard?  Do you think a man who has lost his virginity before marriage cannot be a good husband or be a trusted husband?  And how can you judge a group of people where you have no basis to judge?

Please do not take this as an attack, I clearly do not agree with your opinion.  We cannot judge a person by thier actions because we do not know thier intentions or the events that have led them to thier decision.

Lehua

We know that there is not enough done for the protection of our sisters (and our Muslim women) there is not enough. I believe that here what some are saying here re personal opinion that really aren't relevant to what I planned to mention before. Zaman, I have to question why not you decide to respond and why not before? Regardless I can expect nothing but Western-hatred and zealous behavior. Though you are a brother in Islam I wholeheartedly agree with most of your views here concerning women.

Israfil wrote: Zaman sounds like you justify Taliban rule. If you ask me, any person who justifies the  creation "moral police"  and is not corrupt (society) is one blind Muslim.

From what I know about them, they were not perfect but better than the current govt. At least, they were the Afghan people own govt. (that cannot be denied, as they won't have succeeded to rule there so stably and for so long, otherwise) and not the western puppet.

By corrupt, I meant robbing others in one pretext or the other.

kim! wrote: ZamanH wrote: Although the Taliban were puritanical, they were not known to be corrupt. They http://opioids.com/afghanistan/ - banned production of poppy under their regime which resumed after they were gone. They established law and order in Afagahinistan. Women in Afaghanistan are suffering more because lawlessness and disorder than they did under the "harsh" Taliban rule because of the religious laws. And the rule of the central govt., presently does not exist beyond Kabul. Does being homosexual count as corrupt? The Taliban are just a bunch of women-hating gay boys. Kim...

Where is your evidence??

Anad again by what you say sounds like you condone them...hmmm

Zaman, do you hold men to the same standard?  Do you think a man who has lost his virginity before marriage cannot be a good husband or be a trusted husband? 

As I had said earlier in other thread, such a man is a bad man, therefore, he should be considered a bad husband. According to the Quran, such men should marry women who themselves indulge in fornication.

Also, as I have earlier said in other thread, unlike woman, a man does not betray his family by commiting adultery (he cheats another man, though).

 And how can you judge a group of people where you have no basis to judge?

I don't think that I have "no basis to judge". I have know much about Western society through Western media itself. Let me put it this way, I believe people, in general, are equally selfish everywhere (though, historically Westerners have been more brutal comapared to others), but Western way of life does not conform to Islam.

And concerning the the equality of gender, equality does not imply identicality. To me equality means equal/identical rights to live and to be happy. Society should not prefer life/happiness of one person to that of another person (who has not acted unislamically, of course).

Zaman, I have to question why not you decide to respond and why not before?

I didn't come online for one week.

Zaman,

As it is stated in the Holy Book . . .

     The believers must (eventually) win through,those who humble themselves in thier prayers; who avoid vain talk;who are active in deeds of charity; who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hand possess, for (in their case) they are free from blame, but those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors,- (Quran 23:1-7) (Translation from Yusuf Ali, Islamicity.com)

To my understanding, this states that if a man should have desires that are outside of his marriage or capitves, he is a transgressor.  Which is not only limited to the desired woman's husband but to the community, that includes his wife/wives.  And if it is not a transgression apon his wife, why is it required of a man to get the permission of his wife to take on another wife?

I agree with you that equality does not mean identicality, but we have to be careful of where we draw that line.  An unislamic life is one of unhappiness and despair and no one should ever prefer it.

Lehua wrote: To my understanding, this states that if a man should have desires that are outside of his marriage or capitves, he is a transgressor.  Which is not only limited to the desired woman's husband but to the community, that includes his wife/wives.  And if it is not a transgression apon his wife, why is it required of a man to get the permission of his wife to take on another wife?

Assalamu Alaikum

Lehua, actually, it is not a requirement that a man get permission from his wife to take another wife.  It is only recommended that he show her kindness and respect by talking to her about it before he does so.  The problem with ZamanH's argument is that he holds the misconception that men cannot commit adultery.  He bases his argument on his belief that a man takes a woman into "HIS" home to live and because it is his home, some how that lets him off the moral hook regarding adultery.  So, if he has sex with another woman, he doesn't commit adultery, however, he does cheat but the person he cheats is not his wife but rather the father or husband of the women he had sex with.   What ZamanH doesn't take into account is that nothing we own is ours except through the grace of All-Might Allah from whom we merely borrow what we have while we are in this life.  What ZamanH perceives to be his is not really his at all, it is an illusion he uses to justify his position on this issue.  He also believes that if he took a second wife, that he could simply bring her into his home to live with his other wife (who by the way he feel no obligation to even speak with about this situation) who would have no say in the matter.  However, he is mistaken.  In the Qur'an, it states that he must treat his wives the same or not take another at all.  How can bringing another women into the home where the first wife have already developed a life be just?  He would be telling hiw first wife that she had to have less than what he had given her when she agreed to marry him which is not what the Qur�an says he can do.  To be just, he would have to provide a separate home for the second wife unless the two women agreed to share the same home.  All of the Prophet's (pbuh) wives had their own homes.

With respect to adultery and the Qur'an, if ZamanH were correct in his assumption that men cannot commit adultery than why did Allah say to punish both men and women who commit illegal sex by giving them each 80 lashes?  He didn't say that the punishment was merely for women.  And why did Allah tell both men and women to guard their chastity?  And why didn't Allah allow unmarried men to have sex with their salves instead of telling them to marry a believing slave if they could not control their desire for sex?  And why did Allah say that it was better if the unmarried man waited instead of marrying the believing slave?  The Qur'an is full of ayats regarding the issue of adultery and within those ayats, it is clear that men are just as capable of committing adultery as are women.

PAZ, Khadija

Israfil wrote: Anad again by what you say sounds like you condone them...hmmm

I supported them, its strange you didn't get that at first.

Although, Taliban were staunch in theri beliefs, they did allow free religious discourse and were freely influenced by it. If at all their treatment of women was unislamic, they would have certainly mend thier ways if they were convinced about it.

Only fault I see in them is that they were not pragmatic in dealing with the Northern Alliance and granting them autonomy. Also, that would have helped them to establish diplomatic relation with Iran.

ZamanH wrote: Israfil wrote: Anad again by what you say sounds like you condone them...hmmm I supported them, its strange you didn't get that at first. Although, Taliban were staunch in theri beliefs, they did allow free religious discourse and were freely influenced by it. If at all their treatment of women was unislamic, they would have certainly mend thier ways if they were convinced about it. Only fault I see in them is that they were not pragmatic in dealing with the Northern Alliance and granting them autonomy. Also, that would have helped them to establish diplomatic relation with Iran.

ZamanH, "if at all"...are you suggesting that maybe they weren't "unIslmic" in their treatment of women or that it's okay because that was the only thing they were "unIslamic" about?  "...if they weren't convinced about it?"  What then?  How long should these Muslim women be denied their Allah given rights?  What, as long as it doesn't affect you because you are a man, it's okay?  Wake up ZamanH, no "Sincere Muslim" can stand by and let this happen.  Wrong is wrong and any Muslim that stands by and allows others to deny what is rightly given by Allah to any Muslim, be it man or woman, does a grave injustice to Islam.  Maybe if Muslims would start standing up for one another, we wouldn't have to fight off outsiders.

PAZ, Khadija

Khadija1021 wrote: ZamanH wrote: Israfil wrote: Anad again by what you say sounds like you condone them...hmmm I supported them, its strange you didn't get that at first. Although, Taliban were staunch in theri beliefs, they did allow free religious discourse and were freely influenced by it. If at all their treatment of women was unislamic, they would have certainly mend thier ways if they were convinced about it. Only fault I see in them is that they were not pragmatic in dealing with the Northern Alliance and granting them autonomy. Also, that would have helped them to establish diplomatic relation with Iran. ZamanH, "if at all"...are you suggesting that maybe they weren't "unIslmic" in their treatment of women or that it's okay because that was the only thing they were "unIslamic" about?  "...if they weren't convinced about it?"  What then?  How long should these Muslim women be denied their Allah given rights?  PAZ, Khadija

As long as a better alternative to them (i.e, the Taliban) didn't come. And the present "Afghan" government is too weak to be considered better. People are suffering more now than they did under Taliban because of total lawlessness.

Khadija1021 wrote:   What ZamanH doesn't take into account is that nothing we own is ours except through the grace of All-Might Allah from whom we merely borrow what we have while we are in this life.

I didn't deny that anywhere. 

Khadija1021 wrote: Idi He also believes that if he took a second wife, that he could simply bring her into his home to live with his other wife (who by the way he feel no obligation to even speak with about this situation) who would have no say in the matter.  However, he is mistaken.  In the Qur'an, it states that he must treat his wives the same or not take another at all.  How can bringing another women into the home where the first wife have already developed a life be just?  He would be telling hiw first wife that she had to have less than what he had given her when she agreed to marry him which is not what the Qur�an says he can do.  To be just, he would have to provide a separate home for the second wife unless the two women agreed to share the same home.  All of the Prophet's (pbuh) wives had their own homes.

I didn't know about it being mandatory to provide separate home to second wife. Is your proposition based on hadith?? It is sunnah, though, but I don't know if its mandatory.

Khadija1021 wrote: With respect to adultery and the Qur'an, if ZamanH were correct in his assumption that men cannot commit adultery than why did Allah say to punish both men and women who commit illegal sex by giving them each 80 lashes?  He didn't say that the punishment was merely for women.  And why did Allah tell both men and women to guard their chastity?

And why didn't Allah allow unmarried men to have sex with their salves instead of telling them to marry a believing slave if they could not control their desire for sex?  And why did Allah say that it was better if the unmarried man waited instead of marrying the believing slave?  The Qur'an is full of ayats regarding the issue of adultery and within those ayats, it is clear that men are just as capable of committing adultery as are women.   PAZ, Khadija

That might be because Allah disliked greater interaction between Muslims and the disbelievers. Of course, Allah knows best.

ZamanH wrote: Zaman, do you hold men to the same standard?  Do you think a man who has lost his virginity before marriage cannot be a good husband or be a trusted husband?  As I had said earlier in other thread, such a man is a bad man, therefore, he should be considered a bad husband. According to the Quran, such men should marry women who themselves indulge in fornication. Also, as I have earlier said in other thread, unlike woman, a man does not betray his family by commiting adultery (he cheats another man, though).

That's right, of course! A man committing adultery does _not_ betray his family because his family, especially his wife who after all, is ONLY a stupid woman, means nothing to him!  Well done! Congratulations on helping to attract so many more people to your cult. Diseases like AIDS exist because of people who "think" like you.

And how can you judge a group of people where you have no basis to judge? I don't think that I have "no basis to judge". I have know much about Western society through Western media itself.

Really? Tell me - are all Indian men cute, humorous little guys who like nothing better than to toady to the British and other upper-class visitors. Cos that's what _I_ have seen on tv a lot.  Or maybe all your men are brutal, gang-raping animals? That's actually the sort of stuff I have read in the past few years - Indian men raping and killing Indian women. Is that what I should believe from the media?

Let me put it this way, I believe people, in general, are equally selfish everywhere (though, historically Westerners have been more brutal comapared to others), but Western way of life does not conform to Islam.

Really?  Damn - democracy and freedom of choice must make it SO HARD for Muslims to be Muslims.

And concerning the the equality of gender, equality does not imply identicality. To me equality means equal/identical rights to live and to be happy. Society should not prefer life/happiness of one person to that of another person (who has not acted unislamically, of course).

Equality does NOT imply identicality. IT NEVER HAS. Equality refers to equality of OPPORTUNITY.  I would make a really awful fireman, or athlete or computer programmer, so I will never have the experience of being any of those, but at least I am allowed to TRY. ie: to study, or to give it a go or whatever. I can't BE those things, but I can study and learn and realise that I can't be those things. NO ONE has the right to stop me point blank and stop me from giving any of these things an initial go.

Understand?

Kim...

ZamanH wrote: Also, as I have earlier said in other thread, unlike woman, a man does not betray his family by commiting adultery (he cheats another man, though).

how is a man not betraying his family unlike women ?

he cheats another man, though ??  does not make any sense.

See Angel, Muslim men are _sensitive_. They like to point at women and tell us we're too emotional to be taken seriously, but really it's the men who are so much more emotional. that's why a man whose wife is cheating on him will be hurt SO much more than a woman whose husband is cheating on her.

Men are more emotional. That's why they have to start wars and punch each other and generally be more violent and stupid. Because their widdle pwide gets too hurt, poor dears, so they have to go out and kill people in order to feel better about themselves and prove themselves Manly and Worthy. Remember - size matters...

Kim...

kim! wrote: See Angel, Muslim men are _sensitive_. They like to point at women and tell us we're too emotional to be taken seriously, but really it's the men who are so much more emotional. that's why a man whose wife is cheating on him will be hurt SO much more than a woman whose husband is cheating on her. Men are more emotional. That's why they have to start wars and punch each other and generally be more violent and stupid. Because their widdle pwide gets too hurt, poor dears, so they have to go out and kill people in order to feel better about themselves and prove themselves Manly and Worthy. Remember - size matters... Kim...

Kim, you don't like men very much do you?  I don't think it is logically sound to stereotype all Muslim men based upon the posts of ZamanH.  I'm sure there are plenty of Muslim men who don't think like ZamanH...a few of them actually post on IC forum.

PAZ, Khadija

kim! wrote: ZamanH wrote: Zaman, do you hold men to the same standard?  Do you think a man who has lost his virginity before marriage cannot be a good husband or be a trusted husband?  As I had said earlier in other thread, such a man is a bad man, therefore, he should be considered a bad husband. According to the Quran, such men should marry women who themselves indulge in fornication. Also, as I have earlier said in other thread, unlike woman, a man does not betray his family by commiting adultery (he cheats another man, though).     That's right, of course! A man committing adultery does _not_ betray his family because his family, especially his wife who after all, is ONLY a stupid woman, means nothing to him!  Well done! Congratulations on helping to attract so many more people to your cult. Diseases like AIDS exist because of people who "think" like you.

I did not at all once justified illicit sex or rape.

And how can you judge a group of people where you have no basis to judge? I don't think that I have "no basis to judge". I have know much about Western society through Western media itself. Really? Tell me - are all Indian men cute, humorous little guys who like nothing better than to toady to the British and other upper-class visitors. Cos that's what _I_ have seen on tv a lot.

If I am wrong, then isn't a girl who does not lose her virginity before marriage is considered an exception in the WEst. Of course, she is. But you don't know because you didn't read about that in an Indian newspaper.

Let me put it this way, I believe people, in general, are equally selfish everywhere (though, historically Westerners have been more brutal comapared to others), but Western way of life does not conform to Islam. Really?  Damn - democracy and freedom of choice must make it SO HARD for Muslims to be Muslims.

And concerning the the equality of gender, equality does not imply identicality. To me equality means equal/identical rights to live and to be happy. Society should not prefer life/happiness of one person to that of another person (who has not acted unislamically, of course). Equality does NOT imply identicality. IT NEVER HAS. Equality refers to equality of OPPORTUNITY.  I would make a really awful fireman, or athlete or computer programmer, so I will never have the experience of being any of those, but at least I am allowed to TRY. ie: to study, or to give it a go or whatever. I can't BE those things, but I can study and learn and realise that I can't be those things. NO ONE has the right to stop me point blank and stop me from giving any of these things an initial go. Understand? Kim...

By Duncan Walker BBC News Online Magazine

A short stretch of pebbly foreshore entered the history books on this day in 1979, when it was designated Britain's first major nudist beach.

A vociferous "No" campaign was unable to persuade Brighton councillors that bathing in the altogether was a disgrace, and the town took the bold step of deciding that bathing suits were optional.

A quarter of a century on and the beach is still there, a source of pride to naturists, who say they are increasingly accepted by a British public used to seeing nudity on holiday and in the media.

The group British Naturism estimates that there are now half a million naturists in the UK, and boasts that its own membership is up 20% over the last five years, to 25,000.

BTW Kim your comment which sister Khadija politely addressed was really ignorant, no offense. By you generalizing us Muslim men not only shows your own lack of understanding cultural diversity but your ignorance of men period. All men are different no two men act the same although two men can show similar traits. As for the sensitivity men and women's minds are different. There are men who are more sensitive than women and vice versa what has to do with brother Zaman's point? Again You're  an example of my current title

kim! wrote: Really? Tell me - are all Indian men cute, humorous little guys who like nothing better than to toady to the British and other upper-class visitors. Cos that's what _I_ have seen on tv a lot.  Idiot.

That is an embarassment. But Indian men alone are not to be blame. Western women who come here dress very shamelessly. They stroll around half-naked in beaches and often wear see-through shirts. And they blame the Indian men when they harass them!!!!???

Hi Kim,

I guess you already know, I love your angry responses.  But, please keep them impersonal, or it becomes very tough to moderate.

I hope there is no offense taken by the muslim men, who are trying to defend their gender so passionately in this thread.

This is practically my first summer in "the west", tho I was here last year as well, but was too busy settling down. The way I have seen canadians walking out of their clothes with the comming of summer is absolutely shocking. 

There are some cultures where men think oogling is their birth right, so covered or not covered, some people just wont abstain ... still I suppose all these ppl who shed their clothes off, like a dead skin, should try to wear some dignity like the women of the lands they go to visit. I echo the objections Zaman has posed in this context.

Peace,

Nausheen

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Israfil wrote: BTW Kim your comment which sister Khadija politely addressed was really ignorant, no offense. By you generalizing us Muslim men not only shows your own lack of understanding cultural diversity but your ignorance of men period. All men are different no two men act the same although two men can show similar traits. As for the sensitivity men and women's minds are different. There are men who are more sensitive than women and vice versa what has to do with brother Zaman's point? Again You're  an example of my current title

To understand Kim's posts is not easy, and I wont blame anyone who thinks she is puting all muslim men in one basket. However so far what I have read from Kim in all these years, neither does she dislike men, nor muslim men.  her message is - "if you carry this attitude, you are telling us that muslim men are such".

May I ask why a wife is not betrayed when her husband is having an extra marital affair? Zaman has voiced this theory, in yet another thread ... and he deserves all the condemnation he can get from the women folk for this!

I read your comments in that thread, but had to leave before it was over, and now have not revisited it. Brother, somebody is denying an act of cheating, and this should not be supported. Kim's post is not for all muslim men ... it is for Zaman, and men like Zaman! If they don't at least we should realise they are sending a wrong message to the society, which should not be accepted.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

And, brother Israfil, I wanted to coment on your thread but just did not get a chance so far.

1. Women are not practical. They see some little things in too much depth, and ignore other little stuff, which may be bearing significance. When a man looks at the entire picture to conclude the message, a woman can focus only on certain aspects.

2. Not all women who are complaining are in a position to get up and bring the changes themselves. Accept it or not, in many, many societies, it is still a man's world, and it will always remain like this. A woman is either brought up to accept or because of her circimstances she cannot solve her problems. Thus the only thing that she can do is to complain ... it is a helpless complain. This is what I think. May be you are not refering to the same complians as I have addressed, and in such case, please clarify.

3. The prophet has said that a woman is like a curved rib, if you try to straighten her, it will break [and there is more to the hadith] ... so she is not like men, she is not created like men. She perceives differently, she thinks differently and then she reacts differently. Men need to understand this as much as women do, to understand why there are differences in attitudes.

4. It is this difference, that makes a woman soft, kind, generous, and patient. Therefore, when at one hand you appreciate the good side of a woman, on the other try to understand why these qualities are there ... it could be that you discover some bad stuff hidden within, which is nevertheless an essential core element, helping to shape up the exterior.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Nausheen wrote: Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem, Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim, And, brother Israfil, I wanted to coment on your thread but just did not get a chance so far. 1. Women are not practical. They see some little things in too much depth, and ignore other little stuff, which may be bearing significance. When a man looks at the entire picture to conclude the message, a woman can focus only on certain aspects. 2. Not all women who are complaining are in a position to get up and bring the changes themselves. Accept it or not, in many, many societies, it is still a man's world, and it will always remain like this. A woman is either brought up to accept or because of her circimstances she cannot solve her problems. Thus the only thing that she can do is to complain ... it is a helpless complain. This is what I think. May be you are not refering to the same complians as I have addressed, and in such case, please clarify. 3. The prophet has said that a woman is like a curved rib, if you try to straighten her, it will break [and there is more to the hadith] ... so she is not like men, she is not created like men. She perceives differently, she thinks differently and then she reacts differently. Men need to understand this as much as women do, to understand why there are differences in attitudes. 4. It is this difference, that makes a woman soft, kind, generous, and patient. Therefore, when at one hand you appreciate the good side of a woman, on the other try to understand why these qualities are there ... it could be that you discover some bad stuff hidden within, which is nevertheless an essential core element, helping to shape up the exterior. Maa salaama, Nausheen

Very nice description...

Zaman,

You are correct, some women dress a certian way to get attention from men.  However it is the choice of the man to either lower his gaze or to make comments and "oogle" at her.  The man that stares and comments doesn't go without a sin just because a woman is dressed obscene.

As'Salaamu Alaikum Sister Nausheen,

I agree with what you have said in your explanation but if I may let me rephrase what I truly meant to say because I felt my original post was taken out of context. Insha'allah I won't watse your time with this. I believe that form the other half of the circle of human life. the other side which the man occupies allwos the unity of both men and women to come together without this humanity couldnm't sustain its existence. But if we go more in depth and look at the social infranstructure we see that within the Muslim community there is a sense of "coming out." What I mean is that some Muslim women in our community are now coming out with the ideas of "equality wheras the premise of equality is already stated in Al-Qur'an. We see such women like Irshad Manji who, through her pwnm experiences tends to generalize Islam and some of its adherents. This is the same mindset that certain non-Muslims have when obserivng Muslims through news media or movies.

Along with "coming out" there is the idea of westernizing  the mindset of a Muslimah. First and foremost the culture of western society is in it of itself, a culture which includes: ideologies, beliefs etc. I mentioned Afghan women because all of a sudden its an issue. I believe Kim said earlier that womens rights movement has been concerned with the issue long before, but I believe that in mainstream society the subject is new to the light to many people because this is when Islam is really introduced to society especially here in the States.

The problem I see in westernb infiltration is not the motive, but the lack of sensitivity and education of Islam. What I mean here is that to help a group of women strive to their plateau and to give them their independence and freedom using your "idea" on how to get there I believe that in doing so requires some sensitivity on how going about that. To say "you don't need to cover yourself to hide your beauty" is (1) Telling her to not accept her duty as a Muslim

(2) Helping her transgress from her religious faith (3) interpreting the idea of what "beauty" is. Not saying that that is the idea the Womens rights group but my main point is that in helping the people you must first understand the culture and to understand THAT culture you must understand the religious faith because the issue is more delicate.

I believe the struggle for the equality of women is good especially in a world where most of the men in power do not want to see a female leader. But at the same time we must come to the understanding that equal power is idealistic in this reality is not realistic. The same with all races coming together and extinguishing the "idea of culture." Because culture is so important in our society it would be very difficult to not want to identify ourselves with our culture, and although it would be more idealistic to refer ourselves as human rather black, white, or Arab its not a realistic picture. I do believe that equality is realistic but in this time I believe that its a hard possibility because culture tends to prevent this from becoming a reality.

Lehua wrote: Zaman, You are correct, some women dress a certian way to get attention from men.  However it is the choice of the man to either lower his gaze or to make comments and "oogle" at her.  The man that stares and comments doesn't go without a sin just because a woman is dressed obscene.

Assalamu Alaikum

You are absolutely right.  Allah did not give men permission to gaze at woman anymore than he gave women permission to gaze at men.  And, yes, ZamanH, there is a ayat that states that both men and women BOTH must lower their gaze and protect their modesty.  Even though it would be much easier if the entire world were to act in accordance with Allah's Laws, regardless of how the rest of the world behaves, Muslims have been instructed on how to behave.  There are just as many men walking around bearing their all as there are women so it's not like it's simply easier for women to deal with than men.  We can't sit around and scream for the world to change so that we can be better Muslims.  We have been warned that we will be tested.  A pious Muslim will lower his/her gaze no matter how tempting the world is because that is what Allah has asked them do do.  Why?  Because Allah knows best!

PAZ, Khadija

In addition to Sister Khadija's response to lower the gaze is in comparison with the Buddihst philosophy of the rejection of materialism. We do not know the external beauty of life. To appreciate the full beauty of a woman, a human being is to appreciate the intangible which is her mind and spirit indeed!

Lehua wrote: Zaman, You are correct, some women dress a certian way to get attention from men.  However it is the choice of the man to either lower his gaze or to make comments and "oogle" at her.  The man that stares and comments doesn't go without a sin just because a woman is dressed obscene.

Yes, he does commits a sin. My point was, the girl loses all right to complain.

     All languages can be called artificial because they are the result of human endeavour to communicate with each other. However, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto - Esperanto is the only language, that is recongnised as an artificial language. All other known languages are considered natural. I consider Western culture is to cultures of rest of the world, what Esperanto is to all the other languages. Western culture is too much contrived, to me it seems to go totally against human nature. In our relationship with nature, our approach should be one of least confrontation with it. Aspiring for total conquest of nature that surrounds us (and that exists within us), I consider to be absolute madness.

    It has become a cliche to say that man and woman are equal or that man and women complement each other. They are both indespensable for human society to work properly. Each of them is as important as the other. Hence their rights must be equal to be fair to each of them. The problem, of course, is how to maintain (and define) equality of rights. As I have earlier said, equality of rights don't imply their identicality. Rights of an individuals should be commensurate with the contribution of the individual to the society (of course, a Communist will raise his eyebrows here, but that has always been and that will always be). Contribution not just in the quantitative sense but also qualititatively. That brings in the notion of duties into picture. To me it appears, rights complement duties. Rights of all the adult members to be for their duties to the society. Right not to be seen in isolation of duties. To me, equality means that for no individual in the society his/her duties of the soceity be allowed to exceed his/her rights (that in turn, to me, appears to be duties of the society towards that individual) granted by the society and distibution of rights be such that such an arrangement can be stably maintained.

I see, distribution of rights amongst various members of the society, to be complementary to distribution of duties amongst them. Duties to be ascribed to various members of the society cannot totally be based on their choice/preference, but more on their aptitude/capabilties (and of course, the  requirements of the society, too). I believe Alllah has already partly decided how the duties of various members of the society be divided, in that, He has not only specified specific roles for men and women to follow in the society but, has also sent them endowed with capabilities specific to the roles He has specified for them to follow. As can be seen, men and women differ greatly in their capabilites (i.e have totally different areas of expertise). As such their duties are bound to be different and so are their rights too. Men are stronger, therefore they are more suited to work outside home and for work that requires greater physical strehgth. Women in turn to undertake work that does not require great physical strength or endurance, but which can be as much tiring (and possibly more time consuming). Thus man to work for woman, and, woman to work for man. Both of them equally, but differently, to work for each other and equally being benefitted by each other, in turn.

It is in that context that I believe that rights of husbands and wife related to intercourse with other sexual partners cannot be compared. Women, in general, leave their original homes to live with their husbands after marriage. Its significance in nature (i.e in earlier times) being, as men are physically stronger they can undertake to built the house and also, as women are closer to children, they undertake  to take greater care of the succeeding generation while, men undertake to take greater care of the preceding generation. Sex helps maintain greater cohesion between husband and wife, and sex should not be allowed to trivialised. Entire concept/institution of marriage revolves around consent of man and woman to have sex with each other. Marriage is just a wrapper, its the consent between husband and wife to have sex with each other, that is the real thing. Intercourse is also the cause of greatest byproduct of marriage, i.e the children. However, as time is not still, a woman cannot possibly be present in more than two different houses to serve two different husbands; thus, she cannot possibly promise more than one man to live with her (though, I have come to know, that in a particular part of India, polyandry (i.e, one wife-many husbands) is practised, but, there too, normally the bride marries a group of brothers and thus live in the same house). That, I consider to be one of the reasons that Allah made women crave for sex less and also, stronger in suppressing their sexual desires.  Also, in all the societies of the world, women who committed sex outside marriage were condemned by their families, but, that of men condone his illicit act, before modern Western ideas had their impact over them (according to which both of them should be condoned for their illicit act).

Thus, as duties of men, as husbands, are significantly different from duties of women, as wives; their duties concerning intercourse with other women cannot be compared with those of women to indulge in it with other men (but  duties of men concerning sex with other women can be evaluated separately/independenly). That, however, does not imply that right to live for both of them should not be identical.

Brother ZamanH,

Would you please explain how "the girl loses all right to complain"?  If you assume that, then do you also assume that if she is assaulted or raped that she has no right to complain?  If she has lost her right to complain then does the person who assaults her or rapes her get to go without punishment?  I am not condoning immoral behavior; however, I think your position is not only a bit extreme, but rather, dangerous. 

PAZ, Khadija

First and foremost let me comment on the initial response by Sister Khadija for she said:

Would you please explain how "the girl loses all right to complain"? 

I agree. First and foremost regardless whther a woman is dressing down or dressing too provocative it doesn't justify anything against her will. there is a difference between attraction and acting on that attraction. The latter a human can control because the action is provided by the will to commit. I don't think that to say she deserves ridicule is justified because she chose to wear less clothing.

Second Brother Zaman notes:

Would you please explain how "the girl loses all right to complain"? 

According to you this is true but apparently in Bedouin culture or any Far east culture, a man is still considered a patriarchal figure and is still considered the dominant person in the family. I do not believe that most societies believe this even in Muslim dominated countries. To me, this is merely a subjective assertion because reality says different.

Zaman also said:

Western culture is too much contrived, to me it seems to go totally against human nature.

This again is a subjective notion. To isolate a certain culture is not only subjective but quite prejudice at the same time. I could quite easily sayt that not only the Arab/Indian cultures premise is endogamous but also an isolated culture, culturally. I can also say that such an isolated culture is also against the nature humanity and Quranic teachings. To me that is also subjectively biased. No culture which is created through humanity is against "human nature" that is a contradiction in it of itself.

Zaman said:

"I see, distribution of rights amongst various members of the society, to be complementary to distribution of duties amongst them."

Zaman this is a communist saying here:

>>>Women, in general, leave their original homes to live with their husbands after marriage. Its significance in nature (i.e in earlier times) being, as men are physically stronger they can undertake to built the house and also, as women are closer to children, they undertake  to take greater care of the succeeding generation while, men undertake to take greater care of the preceding generation.<<<

this saying here is a social evlution which mankind had started when it was at a young stage in hisyory. You cannot assume that all of mankinds culture had submitted to such practice. There are certain cultures in south America who practice quite the opposite of what you say here so what do you say of them are they of an accidental breed?

Zaman you said:

>>>>Marriage is just a wrapper, its the consent between husband and wife to have sex with each other, that is the real thing<<<<

Marriage is not some contract which verifies the woman gives her consent to her husband to have sex, because if you take the scenario that she doesn't consent to unwanted sex that is still rape even if the couple is married. The point is, is that marriage is not a wrapper. It an acknowledgement of lifelong attachment between a man and a woman through the unity of God. Sex is easy as we are all equipped with the fuctions of reproduction. But m,entally and emotionally its more than just a wrap, its the acknowledgement of many promises made through sincere vowes.

Your argument presuppose that capability also should transfer ovet to performance and from performance one can perform correctly. That is a community reasoning. Biological performance does not always make up the abiulity to perform because everyone is different and carries their own unique skill. If there was a woman who can think and grasp a certain job faster than a man I believe the job should go to the woman, even if the job requires "heavy lifting."

I don't subscribe to a shallow view that because a man is stronger he is more capable of a woman in certain jobs or certain practices. I hope this helps but again I would be asking for too much.

Zaman you said:

>>>However, as time is not still, a woman cannot possibly be present in more than two different houses to serve two different husbands; thus, she cannot possibly promise more than one man to live with her (though, I have come to know, that in a particular part of India, polyandry (i.e, one wife-many husbands) is practised, but, there too, normally the bride marries a group of brothers and thus live in the same house). That, I consider to be one of the reasons that Allah made women crave for sex less and also, stronger in suppressing their sexual desires. <<<<<

Not only is this reason subjective, but it is vague and nonsense. You are conmparing a culture behavior to an evolutionary one is, no offense, non sense. To say women crave sex less than men becaus of their behavior in the household is funny. Perhaps it would better for you to say that women crave sex less because of biological reasons not social reasons. To say such would be a social reaosn and not a general biological one as your comment suggest.

Assalamu Alaikum

ZamanH wrote:      All languages can be called artificial because they are the result of human endeavour to communicate with each other. However, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto - Esperanto is the only language, that is recongnised as an artificial language. All other known languages are considered natural. I consider Western culture is to cultures of rest of the world, what Esperanto is to all the other languages. Western culture is too much contrived, to me it seems to go totally against human nature. In our relationship with nature, our approach should be one of least confrontation with it. Aspiring for total conquest of nature that surrounds us (and that exists within us), I consider to be absolute madness.

ZamanH, I believe you are telling the truth when you say that you �consider Western culture is to cultures of rest of the world, what Esperanto is to all the other languages�; however, that is a very poor analogy.  And let�s all pray to Allah that the West never ends so that you will have something to blame all of the problems of the world on.  Do you really know Western society?  Or only the parts that those in your society try to mimic?  Have you ever actually been to a Western country?  I�m not trying to say they are all good; however, they are also not all bad either. 

ZamanH wrote:     It has become a cliche to say that man and woman are equal or that man and women complement each other. They are both indespensable for human society to work properly. Each of them is as important as the other.

Which part of this do you not agree with?  The last time I checked, Allah said these things in the Qur�an.  I want you to show me exactly where it says in the Qur�an or Sunnah that men and women are not equal or that they do not complement one another or that they are not indispensable for human society to work properly or that they are not important to one another.  How could you possibly utter these things and believe they are merely a �clich� created by Western society.  This is what Allah said about the very creation of men and women.

O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord Who created you from a single person created of like nature his mate and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women; reverence Allah through Whom ye demand your mutual (rights) and (reverence) the wombs (that bore you): for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)

Allah created a single person (Adam) and created of �like nature� a mate (Eve) for him.  From them two (twain) all other men and women were born.  It says from �like nature� which regardless of what you believe implies similarities.  Furthermore, in the same ayat, it says that �ye� (i.e., �mankind� referring to all humans and not just men) �demand your mutual (rights).�  It doesn�t just say demand your rights, it says �demand your mutual (rights).�  The word mutual means �having the same relationship each to the other.�  It doesn�t imply that they demand different rights or made different demands about their right.  They simply demand their mutual rights.  It�s that simple!  You can call these �modern western clich�s�; however, if you don�t mind, I will simply call them like they are�the words of Allah!

How could you not say that both men and women are not indispensable for human society to work properly?  Can you perceive of a single society with all men and no women that could work properly?  Even on the most fundamental level that is not possible.  Women are needed if for no other reason than to keep the society from dying off.  On the other hand, it is completely possible for a society of women to work properly without any men at all.  All they would need are some frozen sperm and a turkey baster.  That may sound crude; however, logically speaking, it is completely possible.  So, if you are going to start complaining about such things, maybe we should really start looking at who is �dispensable� and who is �important� in keeping the species going.  It might be easy for you to look at the past and point to Adam while saying that Allah created man first; however, it is just as easy for a person to look at the future and point to a woman while saying that without her life doesn�t go on.  Furthermore, even if something was to happen and every man on the face of the planet was to suddenly die of some horrible disease, as long as there was a freezer with some frozen sperm in it, women could repopulate the world.  How does that sound to you ZamanH?  Doesn�t feel too good does it?  The shoe only feels good when we have it on our own foot. 

ZamanH wrote: Hence their rights must be equal to be fair to each of them. The problem, of course, is how to maintain (and define) equality of rights.

Brother ZamanH, why should that be so hard?  All one has to do it turn to the Qur�an and the Sunnah and one will find a definition of equality of rights.  Furthermore, one does not have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.  All one has to do is have an honest desire to see the Truth as set for by Allah.  The problem for some people is that they have to remove the blinders on their eyes that are caused by customs and traditions of their culture that go against the Qur�an and Sunnah.  We are to bend our wills to the Qur�an and Sunnah, not bend the Qur�an and Sunnah to our will.

ZamanH wrote: As I have earlier said, equality of rights don't imply their identicality. Rights of an individuals should be commensurate with the contribution of the individual to the society (of course, a Communist will raise his eyebrows here, but that has always been and that will always be). Contribution not just in the quantitative sense but also qualititatively. That brings in the notion of duties into picture. To me it appears, rights complement duties. Rights of all the adult members to be for their duties to the society. Right not to be seen in isolation of duties. To me, equality means that for no individual in the society his/her duties of the soceity be allowed to exceed his/her rights (that in turn, to me, appears to be duties of the society towards that individual) granted by the society and distibution of rights be such that such an arrangement can be stably maintained.

This Brother ZamanH is right where you really start to go wrong.  This is where you start expecting the Qur�an and Sunnah to bend to your social customs and traditions.  Islam is not a cast system and no matter how much you want it to be, it will never be because in so far as you bend it that way, it is no longer Islam but rather some �artificial� religion which you call �Islam�.

ZamanH wrote: I see, distribution of rights amongst various members of the society, to be complementary to distribution of duties amongst them. Duties to be ascribed to various members of the society cannot totally be based on their choice/preference, but more on their aptitude/capabilties (and of course, the  requirements of the society, too). I believe Alllah has already partly decided how the duties of various members of the society be divided, in that, He has not only specified specific roles for men and women to follow in the society but, has also sent them endowed with capabilities specific to the roles He has specified for them to follow. As can be seen, men and women differ greatly in their capabilites (i.e have totally different areas of expertise). As such their duties are bound to be different and so are their rights too.

Once again, you are trying to ascribe a cast system to Islam.  Allah didn�t partly decide anything; He decided all things.  It is simply men like you who want to believe that Allah left thing out so they can twist and turn Islam to fit their own personal needs and desires.  I�m not saying that there are not duties which are assigned to men and women by Allah; however, you go way over board and in doing so, you dig yourself deep into things you obviously do not know much about.  Just because women give birth doesn�t mean they are solely defined in Islam as mothers and housekeepers.  Women have the right ordained to them by Allah to work, earn an income, to own property, and even to inheritance.  The Prophet�s first wife, Khadija, was a business woman of the first order.  It was her money that supported not only her life with the Prophet (pbuh) before Islam, but also supported the crucial early years of Islam, and she took care of the poor as well.  With her money!  Money that she earned as well as money she inherited from her family.  She also gave birth to Muhammad�s children and did other duties that were hers as a mother and wife.

ZamanH wrote: Men are stronger, therefore they are more suited to work outside home and for work that requires greater physical strehgth. Women in turn to undertake work that does not require great physical strength or endurance, but which can be as much tiring (and possibly more time consuming). Thus man to work for woman, and, woman to work for man. Both of them equally, but differently, to work for each other and equally being benefitted by each other, in turn.

You assume that men are stronger than women; however, it is a fact that there are many women who are stronger than some men.  There is no proof that men are more suitable for work than women especially based upon your assumption that men are more suited for physically labor.  Have you ever given birth ZamanH?  I don�t think a man on the face of the planet can really knows what the term �hard labor� means especially if one compares it to the �hard labor� a woman goes through in order to give birth.  And do you have any real idea of how much strength and energy it takes to keep a house, take care of children, cook dinner, wash clothes, and still look beautiful and be sexy enough for your husband in order to keep him from �gazing� at other women?  Men�s work is usually done in 8 to 10 hours; when is women�s work done?  To be a woman is to be on call 24 hours a day 7 days a week.  While her husband is resting peacefully after his 40 hour work week, his wife is still cooking and cleaning.  She is lucky if she gets a rest at all.  I�m sorry but that doesn�t sound anything close to a fair division of labor.  In fact, the truth of the matter is that Allah knows best, and that we should simply stop trying to build theories that justify male superiority and start following Allah and the Prophet�s lead.  Isn�t that why we were given Islam?  Yes, the Prophet went to battle but so did Aisha.  She fought in battles and other women went to battle for many reasons and not just to wash men�s clothes and to feed them.  Sure the Prophet�s wives each cleaned their own homes, but the Prophet also helped around the house when he was home.  Not only did he do it on his �days off�; he would help after he had been out working all day.  You might want to reconsider you thinking a bit by taking your blinders off.  Men are required to provide for their wives maintenance because women work hard to provide a comfortable life for their husbands and to protect what is his when he is not at home.

ZamanH wrote: It is in that context that I believe that rights of husbands and wife related to intercourse with other sexual partners cannot be compared. Women, in general, leave their original homes to live with their husbands after marriage. Its significance in nature (i.e in earlier times) being, as men are physically stronger they can undertake to built the house and also, as women are closer to children, they undertake  to take greater care of the succeeding generation while, men undertake to take greater care of the preceding generation. Sex helps maintain greater cohesion between husband and wife, and sex should not be allowed to trivialised. Entire concept/institution of marriage revolves around consent of man and woman to have sex with each other. Marriage is just a wrapper, its the consent between husband and wife to have sex with each other, that is the real thing. Intercourse is also the cause of greatest byproduct of marriage, i.e the children. However, as time is not still, a woman cannot possibly be present in more than two different houses to serve two different husbands; thus, she cannot possibly promise more than one man to live with her (though, I have come to know, that in a particular part of India, polyandry (i.e, one wife-many husbands) is practised, but, there too, normally the bride marries a group of brothers and thus live in the same house). That, I consider to be one of the reasons that Allah made women crave for sex less and also, stronger in suppressing their sexual desires.  Also, in all the societies of the world, women who committed sex outside marriage were condemned by their families, but, that of men condone his illicit act, before modern Western ideas had their impact over them (according to which both of them should be condoned for their illicit act).

Brother ZamamH, why do you always swing back around to this issue?  I am not going to go into great detail here because I have already addressed you faulty assumptions in a post on the thread you started about cheating women. 

First, as I mentioned before, it is not necessarily true that a man is more capable (implying he is stronger) of building a house than is a woman. 

Second, how many people do you know who build their own homes?  As far as I know, most people buy them already built by someone else. 

Third, when Allah said to provide for your wives maintenance, he didn�t mean to bring her into your home and then remind her for the rest of her life that it is �your� home.  Men are �protectors� of women� not �dictators�.

Protector:  One who keeps something from being damaged, attacked, stolen or injured.

Dictator:  One who has absolute power with no restrictions.

Forth, if what you said is true then what happens if the wife is the one who proves the home and the maintenance for the family?  Is that why you hate the �modern Western world� so much?  Are you afraid that if the world modernizes that women will gain financial security on they own and will not longer need men like you to provide them with homes thereby nullifying your position? 

Fifth, your assumption that �a woman cannot possibly be present in more than two different houses to serve two different husbands� is not valid.  I can conceive of a world in which a woman could be with one husband in one home one day and then with the other in another home the next day.  Why is that so hard to conceive?   Is it hard for you to conceive because you would then not have your wife there one day to wait on your every need?  Why is it possible for women to be without her husband but not a husband to do without his wife?  You make it sound like the reason women are not allowed to be married to more than one man has to do with something more than the fact that if she had more then one husband, it would be impossible to know who the children belong too.  Actually, with modern technology, that is also no longer problem.  DNA testing can prove who the father is.  The truth of the matter is that the reason Allah granted men the right to take more wives has nothing to do with sex, but rather as I stated in my other post, it has to do with protecting women and children.  It has nothing to do with your false claim that men have greater sex drives than do women.  If you were right in your assumption, then why the plethora of fatwas from women who are seeking advise about not being sexually fulfilled in their marriage.  Do you really think a man that has more than one wife can have sex more than if he has only one?  Having another wife doesn�t magically give him more time to have sex.  In fact, Allah has told women to please their husbands sexually and for men to please their wives sexually, which means that even if a man only had one wife, he would be able to have his sexual desires satisfied�but then again, so would she.

And please do not try to twist my words around to make it sound as if I�m trivializing marriage or the sexual relationship between a husband and wife.  I actually believe that Islamic marriage, if and only if lived the way it was ordained in the Qur�an and supported by the Sunnah, is a glorious union. In fact, according to a number of hadiths, �two persons who love each other only for Allah�s sake and they meet and part in Allah�s cause only� fall under the �Seven people who will be shaded by Allah under His shade on the day when there will be no shade except His.�  There is another hadith in which the Prophet (pbuh) said:

�From among all the conditions which you have to fulfill, the conditions which make it legal for you to have sexual relations (i.e., the marriage contract) have the greatest right to be fulfilled.� (3:50:882 Bukhari)

�The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (woman�s) private parts (i.e., the stipulations of the marriage contract).� (7:62:081, Bukhari)

ZamanH wrote: Thus, as duties of men, as husbands, are significantly different from duties of women, as wives; their duties concerning intercourse with other women cannot be compared with those of women to indulge in it with other men (but  duties of men concerning sex with other women can be evaluated separately/independenly). That, however, does not imply that right to live for both of them should not be identical.

ZamanH, I believe, without a doubt, that I have proven (here and on your thread regarding women who cheat) that your argument regarding this issue is invalid.  You should give it up and start seeking to follow Islam instead of trying to justify the customs and traditions of your ancestry.

PAZ, Khadija

As'Salaamu Alaikum,

I agree with majority of what you said Sister Khadija, but what we should shy away from is comparing duties. I understand the example of men not being able to handle labor. I agree, because a mans body is not structured to birth another huamn being. That is comparing apples to oranges sister. Women are strong as well as men and it is a known fact that there are certain duties men can do which women cannot and vice versa. This is how it is. But other than that I totally agree.

Assalamu Alaikum

Brother Israfil, I was merely trying to show ZamanH that to argue his view is useless because the arguments he uses are not valid.  I honestly believe that the type of feminism which ZamanH detests so adamantly is caused in part by the backlash of male attitudes such as his.  If women were given the rights that Allah ordained to them in the Qur'an, instead of men using the customs and traditions of patriarchal societies to oppress them and deny them their rights, women would not be treated unjustly.  If women were empowered by their Allah given rights and men were to treat them in the manner in which the Prophet (pbuh) treated his wives, women would not have to resort to other means in order to feel empowered.  Allah created the division of labor between men and women for a reason, not simply because men are stronger and women are weaker.  I apologize if I offended you, Brother Israfil, or any other brother, my intention was not to offend.  I am very aware of the natural difference between and women as well as the roles which Allah has ordained for each of them.  Not only do I respect those differences, I truly believe that if Muslims were to adhere to the laws of Islam and follow the example the Prophet (pbuh), all men and women would be happy in marriage.  I don�t see men having to beg, complain or fight to get what Allah ordained for them when it comes to the marriage contract, so why should women?  I think all Muslims whether male or female need to take a serious look at this.  I don�t think we can simply state that Muslim marriage has always been this way and that it always will be.  First of all, that is obviously not true given that the Prophet (pbuh) and his wives did not live that way.  Second, that is merely a way for some men to keep their cozy status quo the way it is.  It is the traditions and customs which are not in accordance with Islam that have created this mess and it is time that Muslims do something to right this wrong.

With that say, I do not want anyone to conclude from what I have said that I fail to acknowledge that there are some true Muslim marriages in the world.  I am fully aware that there are many pious Muslims in this world.  I am merely speaking of those who warp Islam by placing their own cultural customs and traditions before the Laws of Allah.

PAZ, Khadija

Khadija1021 wrote: Assalamu Alaikum   ZamanH wrote:     It has become a cliche to say that man and woman are equal or that man and women complement each other. They are both indespensable for human society to work properly. Each of them is as important as the other.   Which part of this do you not agree with?  The last time I checked, Allah said these things in the Qur�an.  I want you to show me exactly where it says in the Qur�an or Sunnah that men and women are not equal or that they do not complement one another or that they are not indispensable for human society to work properly or that they are not important to one another.  How could you possibly utter these things and believe they are merely a �clich� created by Western society.  This is what Allah said about the very creation of men and women.

I used http://www.answers.com/truism - cliche , to mean self-evident truth.

ZamanH wrote: Khadija1021 wrote: Assalamu Alaikum   ZamanH wrote:     It has become a cliche to say that man and woman are equal or that man and women complement each other. They are both indespensable for human society to work properly. Each of them is as important as the other.   Which part of this do you not agree with?  The last time I checked, Allah said these things in the Qur�an.  I want you to show me exactly where it says in the Qur�an or Sunnah that men and women are not equal or that they do not complement one another or that they are not indispensable for human society to work properly or that they are not important to one another.  How could you possibly utter these things and believe they are merely a �clich� created by Western society.  This is what Allah said about the very creation of men and women. I used http://www.answers.com/truism - cliche , to mean self-evident truth.

This Brother ZamanH is right where you really start to go wrong.

ZamanH wrote: When I wrote that, I was thinking of sex as the only thing that a man and woman are allowed to have after marriage that is  not allowed before marriage to jointly indulge in(in general, in human societies). I mean man and woman can legally develop bonds of friendship and affection (that has no "sex" component in it) etc. before marriage too, but they are allowed to have sex only after marriage and not before it.

Brother ZamanH, where in the Qur'an or the Sunnah does it say that men and women can "legally develop bonds of friendship and affection" before marriage? 

Brother ZamanH,

Cliche means: An overused expression or idea; something which is superficial.

So, how can cliche be a "self-evident fact"?  If you meant "that man and woman are equal or that man and women complement each other. They are both indespensable for human society to work properly. Each of them is as important as the other" is a self-evident fact, then you should have simply said you believe this is true.  By the way, do you?

PAZ, Khadija

Assalamu Alaikum

Brother ZamanH, there is a big difference between coming to this forum board to post our thoughts with other muslims than to develop friendships between the sexs in person.  Males and females are not allowed to develop close friendships and affection on a physical level with persons of the opposite sex before, during or after marriage.  Where did you get the idea that this is permitted in Islam?

PAZ, Khadija 

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Assalamualaikum Brother Israfil,

I agree with all what you have said in your response to me. Alhamdulillah.

Unfortunately this thread is going off topic ... and hope people would take other concerns to a separate string. For this reason I do not wish to respond to the discussion between Zaman and Khadija.

Back to the topic .... just like equality does not mean all families should have equal income, not all professional specializations should have same importance in society etc, equality between a man and a woman does not mean, if a man can go out with his hair uncovered, so should a woman.

In a household the husband and wife have different rights and responsibilities. To allow both, those rights is equality. In the same way, between a son and a daughter, there are different rights on parents ... when the parents give those rights to their children accordingly, then they have observed equality between their children.

In other words, i am trying to echo your thoughts, that the guiding principles for leting the men and women be in society come from the Quran for Muslims. If we tend to borrow these from elsewhere ... it is indeed infiltration of a foreign thing, which can have acceptance only as long as it does not contradict our Sharia.

Infilteration is sometimes intentionally planted in our social system while on others it comes like a mere opinion .... like in a thread in women's section a non-muslim came forward to advocate in favor of a husband's unislamic personal behaviors - not realising what was being forward as "okay" in not okay for a muslim man!

Women like irshad manji are taken seriously by the westers who pay too much attention to islam as a "socially incompatible" set of rules, and the so called mederate and/or apologetic muslims. If it was these women who you referred to as the complaining folks .... I agree.

Therefore i guess there is no dispute about what you are saying. To further the discussion - something that I always profess -  we need to educate our children and youth islamically - which means with authentic islam, give them the sunnah and sharia.  We need to engage people in encouraging discussions, that has a positive impact on them. We need to bring non-practising muslims into our societies, and help them understand the importance of living according to islam ... in a compassionate manner.

Very  often there is resentment among muslims about who is following the right religion and who is not. Resentment of reverts towards born muslims and vice versa ... all these practices are unhealthy, which need to be displaced by active, sincere, efforts of reinforcement of our foundations and weeding of the weeknesses.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Sister Nausheen Alhamdulilahi Rabbil Alamin for your response!

I have another question I overheard on the radio today that our Iraqi sisters are lobbying against the religious authorities in hopes of not having an Islamic based law (Shaira Law) what are your thoughs on this and the issues with women over there? This shouldn't be too off topic.

Bro Zaman,

Again I have to check what you say because there is an obvious difference between mutual friendship here and in person. We on Islamicity are a family (which encompasses friendship) we all participate in the discussions here be it agree or disagree we all do. There are times we agree with each other and we admire each others sayings and we tend to compliment each other. There is really no problem with that. I don't think but then again I'm American right? and I have western values right?

The differnece between with this and in reality (I call reality the world outside the computer monitor) is when a man and woman meet in person there are all types of possibilities that can happen. They may have a cordial relationship or they might have an intimate relationship. With this, there is the possibility to have an intimate relationship via Personal messaging, but we cannot assume the latter because we want to assume that every Muslim here upholds their Islamic duties. So yes there is a difference here and in the real world but I dont see why you are bringing what you should be saying in your own forum here because this is a different topic, and I hope the sisters from no on who respond here can stay on topic.

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Israfil wrote: Sister Nausheen Alhamdulilahi Rabbil Alamin for your response! I have another question I overheard on the radio today that our Iraqi sisters are lobbying against the religious authorities in hopes of not having an Islamic based law (Shaira Law) what are your thoughs on this and the issues with women over there? This shouldn't be too off topic.

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,

I am sorry Israfil, to have not got back to this part of your thread yet. Was hoping to do some homework on the subject before I would say something, but it seems I have too many things at hand. Insha allah will write to you later.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Israfil,

Assalamualaikum wa rahamtullah wa barkatuhu,

I think it would be very hard to find out the exact local political situation in Iraq, unless we hear from the people there.

My impression of the news report  -- and this is just my impression, that there may be a group who would come forward under the shade of Western influence and talk about Islam as an imposition. I think the deep rooted Islam of so many years still lives in the hearts of muslims, and it cannot be eradicated by any democracy or modernization. At least not so fast I hope.

So it would be hard to say if majority of the people in Iraq are scared of Islamic sharia, or this is what we are shown in terms of lobbies against it.

So far there is no State in this world where the sharia is practised (or rather imposed) on the masses in fairness - in its truest and purest form. It would not be a surprise either, if we learn that most people fear this to happen in Iraq as well.

I is sad but true, muslims today are not ready to implement the sharia as a state law anywhere. Those who are doing it have made a mess.  We need to be prepared, and educated and accepting of the laws of Allah, in order to see our brothers and sisters following them.

These are my views on the subject. Took too long to write, am sorry for the delay.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=ZAN20050816&articleId=836 - Here is a link, I find quite similar reaction from an Iraqi muslimah, as one would expect from any other part of the world.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Wa' Alaikum Salaam Wa' Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh!

Before my brief comment I have a question does:

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

mean:

"I seek refuge in Allah from the cursed (rejected) Satan?"

Sorry my Arabic is off a little and I know its a common greeting along with "As Salaamu Alaikum" at my masjid...sorry to sound like a noobie.....

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu

Israfil wrote: Wa' Alaikum Salaam Wa' Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh! Before my brief comment I have a question does: Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem, mean: "I seek refuge in Allah from the cursed (rejected) Satan?" Sorry my Arabic is off a little and I know its a common greeting along with "As Salaamu Alaikum" at my masjid...sorry to sound like a noobie.....

You are right. It means to take refuge in Allah. Don't think if this is used with the salam, which means peace. We take refuge from shaytan before beginning all our daily routines.

Most commonly this expression is said before starting the recitation of Quran, and the salah.

I dont know if people use it on top of letters or not, but I am trying to bring this into my habit, insha allah.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

As'Slaamu Alaikum Sis,

It's a great habit! my apologies for no response I am at work will respond later...

Israfil wrote: Everything in feminism is equal, equal, equal.

actually thats not what feminisms about.

feminisms about being a woman, being able to comfortably be physically and psychicly different to a man. and being allowed to express yourself without the shadow of masculine thought affecting how you allow yourself to think. feminism is very much about being different different different. feminism is about having an identity that doesnt depend on what men think.

seriously..i think muslims should at least try and read some basic feminist books even though they might make you a bit embarrassed..perhaps get someone to edit the embarrasing stuff for you..some of their points are really good.

obvious ones by Germaine Greer are a good start..but im not sure if men are allowed to read such material.

True, those are some of the individualistic qualities of feminism, but its core premise is that those qualities (those which you've just noted in your post) are qualities which must be seen as equal and must be based not ont secual orientation or sex period, but of the individual qualities. Feminism as I was taught is not to be distinctive from the human race, but it presents itself as a particular philosophy. How I find feminism to be counter-productive is that "ultra-feminist" exact revenge on what they peceive as "anti-women" or anti-feminist. feminist want everything to be equal even sports! In Islam (to bring my religious point up here) every human in the eys of God is equal, because we all are the same species. But in matters of sex we are different and those difference from the biological perspective turn into the productive perspective. I believe how men and women operate are different.

I believe some feminist miss this point.