Update! - 15th October 2008 - 05:32 hours - Spanish Time

Brother Minuteman, we don�t just love you, we also respect you, but it seems you have learnt to side track, from your partner, and listed a whole 15 absolutely irrelevant points exactly like he had been doing here for these past few weeks.

My question was very simple. I had just asked if Allah Kareem says:

my Mozlems, when the Ingleesh and the Amreekis attack you, thou shalt lie down on the ground, face down and keep thy dhotis (loin cloth, the primary dress of los Punjabios) just a bit lose and at an angle that's convenient for any future Lindsey England to take better, sexier fotos and also more comfortable for los GIs (poor lads so far away from home!) in case they wish to seek just a wee more fun!

And, if the struggle of the Palestinians, the Kashmiris and los pobres Chechens for their freedoms is just not kosher?

Just for General Public Information

I hope that the Afghans will be well looked after under the Ameerikis. They will teach them some manners.

To my knowledge, the Pathans are all ex-Jews (Yahoodis).

They adopted the christian faith about 2000 years ago.

They attacked Punjab and India most of the time and plundered the wealth of poor Indian people.

Yet I say they are the most beautiful, high level Muslims who live a very clean life and they do business too.

They had no teacher, no guide, no Imam.

Who caused all that downfall? Not the Ameerikis.

I said I do not indulge in politics.

I never said that when some one attacks us, we should lie down.

Exclusively for Public Circulation

Please, beware.

Right now we have some extremely venomous people in our midst, with some serious scores to settle with the already bombed out Muslims just for the simple reason that we resist to accept nabi as nabi.

This chap is trying to caste aspersions on my person purely out of his psychosomatic disorder. We have agreed not to feed his fix by continuing to respond to him.

Mostly, the I C members know me in quite some detail.

But we have got a fresh lot of visitors since I have been away, for a while, because of a slight health mishap. I am detailing below a clarification just for the benefit of our new members.

My friends, the old wisdom always keeps proving itself.

They say that we always and ever take all others to be just and exactly like we are. Obviously, our invaders little minion has tried to paint me in the colours of his own personality by saying:

�he himself along with his family have preferred to take refugee in the invaders country or one can say the bad invaders are giving him the refugee and are giving him all the facilities�

I do understand that it must be extremely difficult for him to see anyone as anything other than an asylum seeker of his own like. The poverty of his statement confirms that he is a typical asylum seeker at the mercy of some country.

He is in perpetual habit of distorting facts, be these facts from the Koran or just info on someone�s profile. My profile clearly states, as most of you know, that I spend some time in Spain. Primarily, I live in Lahore (in fact, not more than one kilometre from where his Nabi�s progeny lives). A fact that was stated in one of my posts just last night and in this chap�s full vision

I went to school in England (I would keep from mentioning the type or the name of the school just out of sheer modesty). All my brothers and sisters did the same and Alhamd o Lillah we all returned home after completing our education � for the sheer reason that we can�t have anywhere in the world what we have at home.

I have been entitled to British nationality since the 60s when they used to just post the passport on receipt of your application, but I chose not to become a British national for my own certain CONVICTIONS!

In fact, my elder sister is on record, globally, in print as well as on the electronic media, for having refused the hand of Diana the Princess of Wales in marriage with her son, that now globally famous heart surgeon!

It seems pobre maosoof (el hombre, this poor man) is in habit of distorting facts, not just from the Koran, but also from our profiles.

Yes, I maintain a residence in London and one in the North West of England. I visit England regularly for my involvement with �Stop the War� movement. I have some remarkable friends there who ALSO OPPOSE British misdeeds and their wrong policies. In fact well over 67% of the Brits do that!

This person�s moral calibre or, in fact, the lack of it is a real eye opener. He believes that if some country let�s you in and gives you a few facilities � you must accept all their immoral acts and crimes as kosher!!!

But who will get all this to those jihadi forces.

Na tussi ona noo�n apniaa�n dhiaa�n dinday o. Na ona d janazay parrhdey ou tay na ee ona noo�n Muslimaan ginday ou. (You don�t allow your daughters in marriage to them. You don�t join in their funeral prayers. You don�t count these poors even as Muslims.

and teach them these things that i have been mentioning.

Thank goodness

Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshiped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." 

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 632:

Narrated Abu Burda:

That the Prophet sent his (i.e. Abu Burda's) grandfather, Abu Musa and Mu'adh to Yemen and said to both of them "Facilitate things for the people (Be kind and lenient) and do not make things difficult (for people), and give them good tidings, and do not repulse them and both of you should obey each other." Abu Musa said, "O Allah's Prophet! In our land there is an alcoholic drink (prepared) from barley called Al-Mizr, and another (prepared) from honey, called Al-Bit"' The Prophet said, "All intoxicants are prohibited." Then both of them proceeded and Mu'adh asked Abu Musa, "How do you recite the Quran?" Abu Musa replied, "I recite it while I am standing, sitting or riding my riding animals, at intervals and piecemeal." Muadh said, "But I sleep and then get up. I sleep and hope for Allah's Reward for my sleep as I seek His Reward for my night prayer." Then he (i.e. Muadh) pitched a tent and they started visiting each other. Once Muadh paid a visit to Abu Musa and saw a chained man. Muadh asked, "What is this?" Abu Musa said, "(He was) a Jew who embraced Islam and has now turned apostate." Muadh said, "I will surely chop off his neck!"

Of course the apostates who are under the protection of the enemy forces or enjoying the elements of comfort cuz of cognitive dissonance and reinterpretation of deen they have a temporary break from hell fire that is all as per the following hadith!

One can have a weak iman and ask forgiveness but justifying it to be the best Iman is sure fire path to the hell fire!

Even in every day courts when you plead guilty it is always a lighter sentence than after trial conviction then it is  full extent of the law!

So quit pleading on behalf of the guilty party and stop the mud slinging over believers! You are doing pretty good so far being an attorney of the Qadiani schism!

We still have to deal with Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam, he is great orator but you know he is taking lot of poor black Americans to the wrong path!

I pray he quits before too long he doesn't have much time left! What money and fame does to the human beings particularly in the western influence!

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 585:

Narrated Abu Hazim from Sahl bin Sa'd:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor (forerunner) at the Lake-Fount, and whoever will pass by there, he will drink from it and whoever will drink from it, he will never be thirsty. There will come to me some people whom I will recognize, and they will recognize me, but a barrier will be placed between me and them." Abu Hazim added: An-Nu'man bin Abi 'Aiyash, on hearing me, said. "Did you hear this from Sahl?" I said, "Yes." He said, " I bear witness that I heard Abu Said Al-Khudri saying the same, adding that the Prophet said: 'I will say: They are of me (i.e. my followers). It will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you left'. I will say, 'Far removed, far removed (from mercy), those who changed (their religion) after me." Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam)."

Wow.

Well. . .I donno wht to say.

Do we ever know what to say about our Maulana el Fasad w�el Fitna? We must be prepared for utter distortion of facts, always.

Do you see my profile? It says about my location? Plus, I have posted a whole Public Announcement re my whereabouts + the fact why I did NOT take up British Nationality despite being absolutely entitled to it.

But mosoof has been distorting even this simple fact of my location � just to suit his agenda.

I am serious and it�s not just for a laugh.

He has a condition in which he just needs to inflict pain on the people around him. It�s a basic psychological fact that we can at best give only what we have ever been given in our lives.

He has had some sad childhood, plus, his posts reflect that he has been beaten up quite regularly. He rants about hatreds that don�t exist at all levels. Some people from the E1 or D3 economic groups may have some violent thoughts about the Ahmedis, but I have not noticed any such thing at the I C level. Here we have a good, respectable educated lot.

This fella has been beaten up often and for his distorted behaviour � not just for being an Ahmedi. Now, he has taken up the jeehad to fix all these passus (cattle, mainly bovine!) that they call all Muslims who have not heard of el Mirza.

So, Chrysalis, just get prepared to be tortured by a Psychopathic pest with a very bad case history.

Seeks, wht do u think of the ahadith?

Let�s be honest, what will anyone think of these hadith thrown at us simply to feed his own fix? Look at my profile + my post (For Public Circulation Only). If a man can distort something as clear and at hand why would he not distort the Koran � for his fix?  

H300: Stop Fitnah
Don't quote the irrelevant hadiths:

The following is crystal clear; if some one was pardoned doesn't mean it is a blanket for all cases!

Go fly a kite and stop being a fitna!

Paa jee, ki ghazab kar reye ou? Allah Karrem nay aiss cheez noo�n ponkan tay waden wastay takhleeq keeta aye. Eh apni sarisht to�n majboor aye. Keewa�n fitna tay fasaad chhad devay?

(My brother, don�t be so terrible. Allah Kareem has carved this thing for just barking and biting. He is bound by his elements, how can he ever free himself from stirring evil?

Serious, brother, he is ill. He has to distort everything around him just for that feel of victory. This is a very usual condition in persons who have been constantly and brutally been suppressed in early childhood, by a tyrant distorted sort of a parent.

Or, perhaps, he has been sentenced to this role as some form of a divine punishment for his deeds. Imagine, his gaad only works by some laws of Physics! He must have some excuses, explanations or other props to accept Illahi or even Raza e Illahi?  

When we read all his posts, it�s not difficult to find a poor chap with a whole lot missing. And, all of us try to fill those missing parts of us in our own ways. Being a pain in our proverbial whatever is his way of paying us for not bowing to his nabi.

I could write a whole book on this chap, but paa jee, there are so much of His Barkaat yet to cover, aiss chor di vari tay qayamat tai�n na aa ssi. (this thief will have to wait for his turn till that Big Day)

Thank you for backing out clean. Help will come from some where, Insha Allah.

Yaar�em, you know me, I admit, I was not brought up on a diet just of the Koran. Any help from me will get you killed in this battle field.

The prophet led his entire life according to the  dictates of the Quran. Death is a Capital punishment. Even Maudoodi sahib said that "Important matters concerning life and death or Haram/halal cannot be left to the Hadith alone. Proof for such matters must come from the Quran." (Rasaail o Masaail Vol?)

My friend, I couldn�t agree with you more.

Absolutely, the solution of any such matters must come just from the Koran.

I would suggest that it should go to its decisive end without any threats or bar.

I hope no one has ever threatened you? But when people are pestered just as a sheer fix for some serious psychological disorder then I won�t blame anyone trying just a bit PESTICIDE here and there!

How can you ever discuss anything with some chap who doesn�t even read your replies and just goes on pushing the sickest of manners? There is only one view � his and his alone. All else is ignorance.

Whisper, I understand that you had the top class modern education only and you did not have much to do with theology. Anyhow, have a good rest and be comfortable. That is what comes out of Cambridge and Oxford. No harm, Insha Allah.

That�s why you never find me in any theological discussion ever. I am no expert on Koran and never quote anything just as hearsay.

Yes, but on most blatant distortions, we all have a certain sentir � feel � of what�s going on. So, in such cases, it does become impossible to keep quiet and just let matters pass.

I have no idea at all if an apostate should be killed or not, but we must use a truck load of pesticide to rid us of this pest that has been a little worse than some pissus (bed fleas) you used to find in some Murree hotel beds!

H300 wrote: so by now it should clear that there is no punishment for apostacy

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -

When the Prophet (SAW) sent him to Yemen, he asked him, "How will you give a judgment or settle a dispute?" Mu`adh Ra answered; "I will refer to the Qur'�n Al Kareem." The Prophet (SAW) , "I will be judge between mankind by resorting to juristic reasoning (Ijtih�d) to the best of my power." Now, Mu`adh's Ra staunch commitment to All�h's SWT Book and the Prophet (SAW) -  justifiably described Mu`adh Ra as "the most learned man of my nation in Hal�l and Har�m."

And you keep harping on where in Quran questions... not all fitna that raised its ugly head later on will be detailed in Quraan!

When Prophet approved Muadh's authority the case was closed!

The Mirzais case can be clearly screened with the The precedent of the OPPOSITION MOSQUE AT THE TABUK expedition--I hope friends don't need the detail here!

Allah's single sign order was enough!

As'Salamu Alaikum WRWB,

Sis Chrysallis, its waste of my time to discuss with a person, who distorts Qur'an and hadiths . So i just ignore his posts.  Moreover, brother {Sign Reader} has answered him. So i think, there no point of explanation, to that hadith.

I asked a question to you, minuteman ?  {Read this whole post, and do not come with your line "It was a long post seeks, so i did not read}

When u state something, you shud backup with Qur'an and sunnah. When u state that apostate shud n't be killed, on what basis did you state that ? 

Here, for me, Madudi sahab is n't greater than the sayings of Prophet Muhammad.  His statement must be context based.  However Prophet Muhammad did kill a number of people who deserted Islam and so the punishment is Sunnah (actions and sayings of Muhammad) and hence Shariah, Islamic Law.

I said this earlier in a thread, and even now am repeating that the scholars say, it is not necessary that a hadith be supported by ayaat of Qur'an. Infact to understand to Qur'an, hadith is necessary. A hadith can be independent. Its not necessary that it be supported by  an ayah. Suppose if a hadith contradicts with an ayah, then it is not taken.

Let me also add, as why we take hadiths. Because Allah swt says in the holy Quran - """And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. " [ 59:7]

Abdullah ibn Khatal, who had previously, accepted Islam, and been accepted Islam and been sent by Prophet to collect alms tax. A slave and one of the Ansars went along with him. Coming to a halt in their journey, Abdullah ibn Khatal told the slave to prepare a chicken for a meal, but the slave went to sleep instead, and was unable to prepare food in time. Abdullah ibn Khatal became angry and killed the  slave. Fearing that if he returned to Medina, the Prophet would exact retribution  for the slave's death, he turned apostate and joined infidels. There he used to abuse Prophet thru his poems. On the day of conquest of Makkah, he wrapped himself  up in the curtain  of the kabah. Here, we need to learn that on the day of conquest of Makkah when Prophet entered the city, he gave his commander orders not to do battle with anyone unless they themselves were attacked. If they took refuge  beneath the curtain of the Kabah, they were forgiven., But this person - Abduallah ibn Khatal was ordered to be killed  even when he wrapped himself in the curtain of Kabah. He was ordered to be killed in the very place. Abu Burza and Saeed ibn Harith {RA} executed him between black stone and place of Ibrahim {Maqam e  Ibrahim}. This shows the severity of the case.

Next  apostate was Miqyas ibn Subaha. He was also ordered to put to death when he turned apostate. He was slewed by Numaila ibn Abdullah.

Now my question to you is, when there was no such ayah in Qur'an , why did Prophet Muhammad {sallal lahu alayhi wasallam} order them to be killed ?

There were other hadiths too posted by Brother {sign reader}. Am repeating them as a reminder.

Bukhari 9:89:271 - A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism Mu'adh said: "I will not sit down unless you kill him as it is the verdict of Allah and His Apostle"

Why did Mua'dh RA, kill him ? Why did he say that he shall not even sit down, untill he kills him ? Did you not read, when he said that it is the VERICT of Allah and His Apostle ?

Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don't punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"

What do you say about this hadith ? Why did n't Prophet, stop Ali from killling him ? Instead he was said, do not punish anyone with fire as its Allah ' s punishment.

You need to understand minuteman, that a person is n't  FORCED into Islam. Islam forbids us to compel someone into Islam. A person enters by hs own will, by his own choice. He is expected to submit himself totally to Allah swt. He surrenders the rights of his decisions to Qur'an and Sunnah.  Allah swt says in the Qur'an , "

33 : 36. It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error.

If Allah and His Messenger decreed a matter, no one has the right to go against that, and no one has any choice or room for personal opinion in this case. In Islam, a muslim if protected from kufr and shirks. When he accepts a right path willingly, is he allowed to be an apostate ? Can he declare that he does not believe in Allah swt. or Prophet or aakhirah or other tenents ? Islam does n't tolerate that. A muslim cannot reject fundamentals. Out of ignorance or out of any distractions or weak faith , one may have doubts of those fundamentals. He can question the, debate or discuss and get the understanding. But why does he desert Islam ? In order to protect the true religion from the defamation of the liars and to protect the faith of its adherents and remove obstacles from the path of those who are entering the faith. , they are to be killed.. Execution is the greatest deterrent that will prevent people from committing such a crime. Why does then death penalty exists in our laws {constitution} . Why is a person "hanged" . Death sentences and such laws are made to protect disorder in a society. To protect society against such crimes. Similarly, in an Islamic state wherein the laws are n't man-made, an apostate is to be killed so that he does n't spread this fitnah anymore. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is a sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostasy i.e. the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society, it is indeed a major fitnah.

Sis Chrysallis, its waste of my time to discuss with a person, who distorts Qur'an and hadiths . So i just ignore his posts.  Moreover, brother {Sign Reader} has answered him. So i think, there no point of explanation, to that hadith.

1. A person of Hazrat Ali�s stature is presumed to be unaware of the fact that Islam categorically prohibits a person to be punished by fire.
2. The words �slay whosoever changes his faith� are so general that they can be interpreted in many ways. They can apply to men, women and children, whereas according to Imam Abu Hanifa and some other schools of jurisprudence, an apostate woman can never be slain.
3. The Arabic word deen (religion) used in this tradition is a general word meaning any religion, not Islam specifically. Even the faith of idolaters is referred to as deen. (Sura Al-Kafiroon)

Minuteman:

1. The Word of God stands supreme.
2. This is followed by the actual practices of the Holy Prophet of Islamsa. This is known as sunnah.
3. This is followed by hadith, the words reported to be those of the Holy Prophetsa

1. If the authenticity of the words of the Holy Prophetsa is established unquestionably, the words concerned are words put into the mouth of the Holy Prophetssa by God Almighty. Where there is no apparent contradiction between the word of the Holy Prophetsa and the Quran, the tradition may be accepted as authentic.


2. There are no two opinions regarding the accepted fact that whenever any so-called tradition attributed to the Holy Prophet of Islamsa contradicts any clear injunction of the Holy Quran, such a tradition is rejected as false and is not accepted as the word of the Holy Prophetsa.


3. If such a tradition does not glaringly violate any injunction of the Holy Quran and there is room for compromise, then ideally an attempt should be made to search for a suitable compromise before the final rejection of the tradition.


4. In attempting to reconcile a tradition attributed to the Holy Prophetsa with the Holy Quran, it must always be borne in mind that the clear teachings of the Holy Quran are not to be compromised for the sake of a so-called tradition, but a genuine attempt is to be made to find an explanation of the tradition. Therefore in all cases of doubt, the tradition is put to the anvil of the Holy Quran and judged accordingly.


5. If there is no contradiction between the Holy Quran and hadith, then their mutual merit of credibility would be determined according to the reliability of the sources and the chain of narrators.


6. Such a tradition will also be compared with other authentic and widely accepted traditions to make sure that the tradition does not conflict with other traditions.


7. Lastly, another reliable method of investigating the credibility of a tradition is to study its internal evidence critically. If the contents of the tradition clash with the image of the Holy Prophet of Islam which has emerged from a study of his conduct and bearing throughout his life, then such a tradition would be rejected as a false attribution to the Holy Prophetsaor as being against the principles of logic and common sense. [this is very important]