Jesus in Islam and Christianity
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Topic: Jesus in Islam and Christianity
Posted By: believer
Subject: Jesus in Islam and Christianity
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 7:01pm
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John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Al-Haqq The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.
Ar-Rasheed The Guide to the Right Path, The One who guides.
Revelation 22
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Al-'Awwal The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.
Al-'Akhir The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.
John 5
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Al-Hakam The Judge, He is the Ruler and His judgment is His Word. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Replies:
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 9:43pm
| Believer this is a redundant topic. Why don't you delete this thread and discuss your views there. All you're doing is posting scripture. What are your views? What are you presenting? You are manipulating doctrine to prove your own views, but ironically you haven't stated your views. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 7:36am
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Quote Believer,
John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
What about those people who has never ever see Jesus, like Adam and all the other prophets, were they worshipping the Son or the Lord?
Al-Haqq The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.
Ar-Rasheed The Guide to the Right Path, The One who guides.
You are referring to Allah Subhanahuwataala and these attributes of Allah are all in the Quran, not in the Bible. You definitely cannot find the word Al-Haqq or Ar-Rasheed in the Bible.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
As mentioned by the late Ahmad Deedat in his book, the Bible are a compilation of God's Words, The Prophet's Words and the bulk are words of historians. The above quote, I believe are one of the few words of God that can be found in the Bible.
Al-'Awwal The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.
Al-'Akhir The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.
These two attributes of Allah is contradictory to the creation of Jesus. Jesus had a beginning - in his mother's womb - and he also had an end - on the cross (the Christians' belief).
John 5
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. Muslims only honour the Father or the Lord or simply Allah Subhanahuwataala who not only sent Jesus but all the prophets of the world. And who does not honour the Prophets of Allah does not honour Allah Subhanahuwataala.
Allah is He, other than Whom there is no other god; Who knows both what is hidden and what can be witnessed; He is the Most Compassionate and Merciful. Allah is He, other than Whom there is no other god; the Sovereign, the One, the Source of Peace, the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Security, the Exalted, the Compelling, the Supreme. Glory be to God, beyond any associations. He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Form. To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: Whatever exists in heaven and earth declares His Praise and Glory. And He is Exalted in Power, the Wise. Al Hashr 59:22 ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 5:18pm
believer,
sorry to say but you have poor memory as an individual and/ or poor coordination as a group. All of the above points of yours have been discussed and answered in various threads before.
No doubt that Jesus (pbuh) was a blessing from God Almighty for those upon whom he was appointed as the messanger, as a true guiding light.
Unfortunately what we learn about him through the Bible is of contradictory nature and not very reliable, where he is a humble servant of God at one place, while confusingly enough god in the next.
It is only through the Final Testament (the Quran) that we learn about who Jesus (pbuh) really was, what was his position and purpose? I don't find anyting else that can prove more realiable and authentic than that.
By the way your quote from Revelations 22 , "the first and the last" suggest a begining, the first and and end, the last. That is different than Islamic understanding of : No begining and no End.
And your quote:
John 5
22......... He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
I have two things to say about this quote:
a) this can be true for all of God's prophets when they were sent to their people. For example when Noah warned his people with the message from God, those who did not listen and honor Noah did not honor God and thus were punished. As now those who do not honor God's prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are not honoring God, to their own loss.
b) I find an interesting statement associated to the same person (Jesus pbuh) in the same book, let us see:
Matthew 12:32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man (Jesus) will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
This quote clearly shows that if (according to the Bible) someone does not honor Jesus, still is honored with forgiveness. That is in contrast to your quote of John 5.
Also remember that Jesus was given all what he had by God, even the ability to judgement between right and wrong as all of God's prophets were given that Judgement. Jesus is quoted here to say:
John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but Him who sent me.
Also note here Jesus saying, " but (to please) Him who sent me!"
Do we need an explaination of this saying? let me know.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
believer wrote:Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 8:22pm
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Hasan: Also note here Jesus saying, " but (to please) Him who sent me!"
Do we need an explaination of this saying? let me know.
That is clear proof of the truth of Quran. Jesus is admitting that he has been sent. That means he is a messenger of God. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 10:11pm
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Salam
I would also like to add that all the arguments given by muslims over here preassume that Bible is authentic, while we Muslims, along with many historians, first of all believe that Bible is unauthentic and corrupted.
|
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 12 September 2008 at 1:00am
The Bible says that no other book was to follow it which in effect removes the need for the Quran to serve God:-
Revelation 22:18-19
"I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.
The Bible also say it has all the infomation humans need to serve God faithfuly:-
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
Thus nothing more than the Bible is needed.
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 September 2008 at 5:53am
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Are there any prophets in Islam that made these same claims that Jesus made? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 12 September 2008 at 5:34pm
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Robin,
A God given book will be free from any alterations, contradictions, errors and should be pure and spiritual.
Instead the Bible have all these and the saddest and humiliating part is the pornographic verses that really contradicts the Purity of God AlMighty.
If these dirty verses that can rouse the animal self in a man, can be included in the bible, what other subtle words that be included by corrupted priests of yesteryears?
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)
http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm - http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 12 September 2008 at 5:35pm
Sorry, please clarify. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 September 2008 at 6:54pm
Robin,
just like your quote from Revelation states, if any one adds from their own to what God has revelaed God will punish him, as he not only misleads himself but others as well, knowingly.
Many Bible scholars state that Bible has went through many rewritings, additions and substrations. If we don't take their word, and do our own study, we do find problems and contradictions in the Bible that prove toward its transformation from word of God to word of man.
One thing is clear, man contradicts, God does not. The Bible contradicts and that proves that its a man edited book.
Now that does not mean that the Bible was always that way. At once it must have been pure word of God when God sent those scriptures to the prophets.
It will be suicidal to knowingly cover up the facts if one believe in accountability, and as Muslims we do.
God loves us and has promised us to hold us accountable only after He has sent us the Guidance.
The choice is ours, once we know what's the truth and what is not.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 September 2008 at 11:33am
|
Did Mohammad, Moses, Abraham any prophet ever say abut himself the type of things Jesus said about himself?
John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Al-Haqq The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.
Ar-Rasheed The Guide to the Right Path, The One who guides.
Revelation 22
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Al-'Awwal The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.
Al-'Akhir The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.
John 5
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Al-Hakam The Judge, He is the Ruler and His judgment is His Word. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 September 2008 at 10:17am
believer,
sorry to say but you have poor memory as an individual and/ or poor coordination as a group. All of the above points of yours have been discussed and answered in various threads before.
No doubt that Jesus (pbuh) was a blessing from God Almighty for those upon whom he was appointed as the messanger, as a true guiding light.
Unfortunately what we learn about him through the Bible is of contradictory nature and not very reliable, where he is a humble servant of God at one place, while confusingly enough god in the next.
It is only through the Final Testament (the Quran) that we learn about who Jesus (pbuh) really was, what was his position and purpose? I don't find anyting else that can prove more realiable and authentic than that.
By the way your quote from Revelations 22 , "the first and the last" suggest a begining, the first and and end, the last. That is different than Islamic understanding of : No begining and no End.
And your quote:
John 5
22......... He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
I have two things to say about this quote:
a) this can be true for all of God's prophets when they were sent to their people. For example when Noah warned his people with the message from God, those who did not listen and honor Noah did not honor God and thus were punished. As now those who do not honor God's prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are not honoring God, to their own loss.
b) I find an interesting statement associated to the same person (Jesus pbuh) in the same book, let us see:
Matthew 12:32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man (Jesus) will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
This quote clearly shows that if (according to the Bible) someone does not honor Jesus, still is honored with forgiveness. That is in contrast to your quote of John 5.
Also remember that Jesus was given all what he had by God, even the ability to judgement between right and wrong as all of God's prophets were given that Judgement. Jesus is quoted here to say:
John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but Him who sent me.
Also note here Jesus saying, " but (to please) Him who sent me!"
Do we need an explaination of this saying? let me know.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 September 2008 at 5:45am
|
You miss the message honeto-
A person not honoring Jesus will be forgiven even though he is also not honoring the Father.
1 Timothy 1
13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
Paul did not understand who Jesus was, or what His teachings were about. A sin against the Holy Spirit can not be forgiven, this sin is done knowingly and with malice. Only the most evil of man would deny the Holy Spirit once they were touched by the Holy Spirit.
Have any other prophets claimed these attributes? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 7:33pm
|
Have any other prophets claimed these attributes? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 2:56am
|
Salam
Have any other prophets claimed these attributes?
Like I said, Jesus claimed to be all that according to the Bible. You are assuming that Bible is authentic, when Muslims, along with many historians consider Bible to be unauthentic. Still, even if we say that Bible is not corrupted, yet, Moses has been given an even greater label by God according to the Bible. In Exodus 7:1, Moses is called god. Now God never called Jesus god. So is Moses the 4th member of trinity? Are we suppose to worship him? I am sure you will disagree and argue that if Moses is called god, that does not make him God. It only makes him a representative of God. Likewise (even though Jesus is never called god by his so called father, still) if Jesus is given great attributes, that does not make him god. Furthermore
i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28] (ii) "My Father is greater than all." (iii) "�I cast out devils by the Spirit of God�." (iv) "�I with the finger of God cast out devils�." (v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." What kind of a god says I can do nothing?
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know." |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 8:05am
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LOL We are not talking about the Trinity.
Unauthentic? Well then you differ from what Mohammad and the Quran say about the Holy Bible - the Torah and Gospel.
Have any other prophets claimed these attributes?
Is the answer not known or is it no? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 11:47am
|
believer,
I don't know what is your point here.
First, your question is like 'if all fish swim' and you are basing your argument on that.
Second, you are quoting from a book that have lost its credibility as the word of God, and I remember you yourself once admitted that its not direct, litteral word of God. And I and many others have shown you the proof of its contradictory statements.
Your quote:
Revelation 22
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
I have several problems with this quote: Someone whom God (Jesus claimed he was sent by God) sent will never say things like that. For example to say " I am Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Begining and the End." will not say things like, " I can of myself can do nothing", or " not my will, but the will of the father who sent me", or I am returning to my God and your God", or that " the father is greater than I".
We even don't need to go more far to see the contradiction of your quote. Just a few lines up from where you quoted we read:
"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal "
We know that God is the Creator, the One who don't have a begining nor End.
We know that the Angels don't show around God. If you mean Jesus is God, "the first and the last" why an agel is showing him around things??
So certainly, non of God's prophets not even Jesus can say what you are associting even with Jesus. And just example of the proofs of those Bible contradictions.
As far as John 5:22 I have already showed you a quote that contradicts it in the same Bible.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |