THE CREED OF THE SHI�AISM
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: Matters/topics, related to various sects, are discussed where only Muslims who may or may not belong to a sect take part.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1282
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Topic: THE CREED OF THE SHI�AISM
Posted By: saalih
Subject: THE CREED OF THE SHI�AISM
Date Posted: 23 June 2005 at 9:46pm
------------- allah knows best. |
Replies:
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 4:04am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
Are you saying Shia are not Muslims? please answer this point beffore anything else.
So does a statment made about a particular group of shia 1200 years ago still apply to shia who believe Allah is one and Rasul allah(sallah llahu alahi wa sallam) is his messenger in our time? ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Shi'aism and Islam are indeed different religions.Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 4:08am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem Links to that site will not be allowed, it makes takfir of muslims and it is in violation of forum guidlines. I will further add it has outright lies in other sections. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: hkrespect
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 7:46am
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some shia are outright kaafirs as are some so called sunnis like - ahmadiya and qadiyaani ------------- hk |
Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 7:47am
Are you saying there is nothing that can nullify shahada? This fatwas cannot be applied on individuals but it can be applied on shiism and the one who follows its teachings 100%. There is many shia who dont by the idea of hidden imam or that sahaba become apostates or that todays quran is not the same as in prophets(saw) time. And in many shia community's the majority have always seen muta as something ugly. |
Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 8:00am
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Alhamdullila! They have revealed their true face (the Salafi's and Wahabbi's) and IT HAS BECOME CLEAR WHO IS CREATING THE FITNA IN THE UMMA OF RASULALLAH (A.S.). For anyone who is interested in an actual Sunni-Shia dialogue from two respected scholars of their day, please see http://al-islam.org/murajaat/index.htm - http://al-islam.org/murajaat/index.htm . This presents (and discusses) the ACTUAL differences between Sunni and Shia. ------------- "The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.) |
Posted By: saalih
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 8:02am
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they don't except any saying of the prophet from bukhari or muslims or any of the other four books. how can a someone be a muslim if he doesn't except the sahih hadiths of the prophet. he who rejects the hadiths have rejected the quran. |
Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 8:15am
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Br. Shakur, We do not reject ALL of the hadith in Muslim or Bukhari, however, we do not accept them as Saheeh. In general, The Shia do not accept any collection of hadith as being Saheeh (except, possibly, Al-Kafi) and the only book that is relied upon 100% is the Holy Quran. This idea that an ENTIRE BOOK can not be criticized (other then Quran) is not supported by Quran, Sunnah or Hadith. The Shia science of hadith collects hadith, categorizes them and but them all (with their chains of naration) in a collection. This collection is continously re-evaluated by scholars and discussed. For those who believe that Muslim and Buhkari do not contain false hadith (and hadith the support Imam Ali (a.s.) as the first Caliph), please see http://al-islam.org/ask/8.html - http://al-islam.org/ask/8.html (which includes direct quotes from these two books that can be verified by anyone). ------------- "The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.) |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 8:39am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum Some of the Guidlines you should consider br, and posting the above is certainly in breach of them, please be more carfull next time. 1. We manage here an Islamic discussion board, thus all members are requested to maitain the deorum as per the standards of an Islamic cultural society. Any joke, or casual statement which the moderators find insensitive, may result in edition or deletion. 2. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions. 10. We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants from ANY Community (personal attacks are defined as comments that reflect upon the person instead of their opinion). Furthermore, any insults intended to ANY religion or ANY prophet of God, or ANY holy scripture shall be removed. 13. We request you not to post URLs of sites the sole existence of which is to slander a religion or spread lies about it. 18. If any board member is found inadequate in observing any of the above rules, he/she may be prompted once, twice or thrice by the moderators before denying him/her all access to discussion boards in future. 19.Your participation in discussion forums is a privilege and not a right. "Free Speech" here means that you don't pay for speaking your mind as opposed to any other belief(s) you might have. We reserve the right to remove any comment or comments that are not in line with the above rules, without giving reasons, notifications or explanations to anyone. Discussing an aspect of shia beliefe is one thing, outright Takfir of Shia is not acceptable. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 8:53am
So the classical scholar named by shakur are all wahabi and salafi? Dont refer people to deception. This duologue never happen between Selim al-Bashri and the lier. The most oddest things is how Selim all the time is singing the praises of the Shia scholar. And the speed this letter arrives between the two different countrys in 1910. Its imaginary dialog like the peshawar night pure deception. |
Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 9:12am
Shia science of hadith? categorizes them? continuously re-evaluated ? Where do this shia live on the moon?.[moderator edited]Murajaat and Peshawar night is good example and lets as not forget the Nahjul balagha speeches attributed to Imam Ali(ra). as the forum guidlines state, we do not allow personel attacks.rami. ------------- |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 9:32am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
Do you seriously think i believe that? The minimum to be considered a muslim in islam is believing Allah is one and Muhamad is his prophet. The only sin Allah wont forgive is shirk.
This is not a fatwa only a scholar who has Ijaza is Qualified to give legal rulings in Islam. This is a bunch of staments taken out of context of time period and place and put together with the opinions of the auther. please have some respect for islamic scholarship and authority. br Ali Zaki not every sunni scholar ageed that Bukhari or muslim were sahih i dont know any which said they contained false ahadith. The majority and the concensus among scholars is that they are Sahih, i sugest you look at sunni methodology of clasifying ahadith not the atempt by this site which is an insult realy to scholarship as it ignores all methodology imam Bukhari and muslim formulated to clasify hadith in there colection. How can you comment on the works and ignore the methadology used to complie it. It is only a critisism of people Shia dislike nothing else, where is the scholarship in that. I do not trust the site you contiunualy refrence, the argument they present and the sources have yet to be proven reliable. Many shia books are delibratly worded in such a manner br it is manipulative as it leaves no room in the persons mind to make up his own judgment it lacks impartiality while pretending to be fair by presenting sunni "evidence" against sunni's with shia interpretation of what the sunni's are saying rather than what is being said. The clasicc example is the hadith in Bukhari about ahl al bayt, The understanding of these ahadith by sunni's is not the same as shia so how can simply having a hadith which you interprate a certain way be proof that the scholar is somehow agreeing with you? we have many comentarie's, tafsir, on these works clearly explaing what is meant by them. you may like to have a look at the following. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/ http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/ - ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 10:10am
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Salam alakum Br. Rami, I appreciate your comments/criticisms and understand your perspective. I do not deny that there are great and respected Sunni scholars who disagree with some of the points in Al-Marjaat and am am anxious to hear there specific problems with the book. Regarding the "statement of purification", we have went round and round about this (you and I) and have come to no agreement. I understand that. But there are many other scholarly arguments and I have yet to find a suitable response to the POINTS made in this book. My understanding of these issues is limited, and I appreciate the service that the administrators provide. I will read and respond to the link you provided. You have (previously) offered to provide links to Sunni sources. Do you know if the Four Mathhabs are online? Do you have a link to them? As for me I HAVE NO PERSONAL PROBLEMS WITH MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS and I enjoy the opportunity to discuss these issues. What disturbs me (and prevents me from being more active in this lately) is the insults and personal attacks that come from others who regularly participate in this forum. I have never questioned the truthfullness or sanity of any members of this forum. I would request the same courtesy from others (this is not directed at you Rami, as you know.) I have never called anyone a Kafir or Mushrik, or said that Wahabi's or Salafis are Kafirs or Mushriks. This is a GRAVE insult to a Muslim, and I hope the moderators will take this into account. Salam ------------- "The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.) |
Posted By: saalih
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 12:48pm
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If there were any personal insults by men then i am sorry. to be honest with you i don't now a thing about salafes or wahabis. Todays muslims scholars are not learned as the scholars before us, and do not understand the religion as well as the scholars before us.
what sunni scholar doesn't agree with bukhari and muslim. it's the sunnah that tell us the best examples and which deeds are the best. without these people are missing great portion of islam. 1.do shias insult the sahaba yes or no. |
Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 1:44pm
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Salam, Thanks Rami! You're efforts are appreciated by some.
------------- "The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.) |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 25 June 2005 at 1:37am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum Shakur, Sorry i wasnt more clear in my post you did not insult any person but your article was directed to a religious community ie shia it labeled them as kufar. the site where this article comes from is run by wahabi extremest in Indian who practice takfir on other muslims (different from average wahabi's today). nothing on that site is scholarly or is accepted by any of the madhhabs it is full of misquotes and misinterpratations of many scholars. I would advise staying away from it. Br Ali Zaki my comments about the ahadith in Bukhari about ahl al bayt where not reffering to our last converstation i was speking generaly about all the ahadith in bukhari or muslim which shia take as evidence that sunni's are ignoring certain hadith implying we are not following the sunnah or we are wrong for what ever reason. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: hkrespect
Date Posted: 25 June 2005 at 6:38am
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who was quran revealed to? did not Allah promise to preserve the quran? would not Allah preserve the wisdom of the prophet pbuh upon whom the quran was revealed and upon whoms sunna we understand the quran?
------------- hk |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 25 June 2005 at 7:14am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum If you are refering to the shia beliefe that the Quran was not preserved, the majority of shia hold that it is preserved, a minority among them do not. Generalising like that is bigotry and unislamic behiviour. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 25 June 2005 at 8:16am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
some general information you may like to know, Each madhhab Uses a differnet methadology (Usul al Fiqh) of extracting rulings from the Quran and sunnah. Our scholars have developed many methodologies for many different madhabs but only four spread and survived, meaning only the four we know today still have scholars alive who where taught the Usul, knowledge of the madhab by a scholar who learnt it from his shaykh who learnt it from his shaykh and so on back to the founding scholar of that madhhab. We have rulings of other madhhabs and there methodologies written in books but they can not be revived as no living link from these madhhabs exist and can garunty the correct understanding of these dead schools so any atempt is not accepted. If you would like to know the fiqh or rulings themselves to different issues in these schools http://www.sunnipath.com/ - Sunipath.com is the best place for that on the internet they have rulings from the Hanafi and Shafii madhhabs although i will add some rulings in the shafii are minority opinions of the madhhab rather than the majority in many cases this simply means a Mujtahid scholar agreed with another madhhab in this particular ruling more so than with his madhhab. The other two are harder to find information about but i do have some if this aspect is what you are interested in. http://www.sunnah.org/fiqh/usul/usul_fiqh/Default.htm - - USUL AL FIQH AL ISLAMI Is about the methodology used by the madhhabs and how it developed and where it came from. it is general and does not discuss actual Usul Principles such as "do not interprate a verse in the Quran in a way that contradicts another verse in the Quran" If this is not what you are asking about then let me know. i fixed the link above. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 6:05am
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Salam to hkrespect, NOTICE TO ALL Shia have the same Quran. I laugh when I hear some of my brothers and sisters saying that they have heard Shia have a different Quran. This issue has been discussed before on this forum, however, for those who are new...ONE QURAN, SAME QURAN FOR SUNNI AND SHIA. REGARDING PRESERVATION OF THE PROPHETS SUNNA The Holy Quran is the only preserved (from error) book. The (authentic) hadiths of the Prophet have been preserved, however, a major reason we have scholars is to differentiate between reliable and unreliable Hadith. If one has time to study the "science of Hadith", then one can do aspire to be able to make this determination themselves. The reason that the science of hadith is important is because (as any Muslim quickly learns) there have been many hadith that have been fabricated, and others that have been transmitted with the opinion or interpretation of the transmitter inserted, thus invalidating them (unless a clear distinction is made between the prophets and the transmitters words). The Quran is the ultimate "firquan" (criteria) for determination of the authenticity of a hadith, and any hadith that contradicts Quran is rejected by all Islamic scholars (Sunni and Shia). ------------- "The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.) |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 7:03am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum br regarding the shia beliefe of the Quran not being preserved some shia do believe this as i have heard them trying to argue this point while i have also seen others believe as sunni's believe.
That isnt exactly corect we do not reject a hadith simply becouse it contradicts the Quran, we investigate the reason behind this contradiction and see what the cause may be eg abrogation...a verse came down negating a specific sunnah. Or simply the contradiction may be in interpretation, the posbilities are explored from all aspects basicaly. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: hkrespect
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 7:36am
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mr rami and mr ali i think both of you misunderstood me, my bad. the quran on its own tells us about reading salaah. does it tell us how? no!!! my point being that Allah preserved the sunnah with the Quran. i am not saying there are different qurans, i am saying that we have to understand the quran through the Prophet pbuh, not our desires. ------------- hk |