To ZamanH,

I don't usually make comments on political issues (as this is primarly a forum for discussion about Islam), however, I couldn't resist on this one.

In my personal opinion, the current "West-Bashing" that is going on is a direct result of the actions of our (King) George W. When you make a speech like the (in)famous "Axis of Evil" speech, and tell other countires that you are either "With us or Against Us", you will find that many people outside the U.S. (when forced to consider which side they will be on) will choose the "Against" column. This is not suprising to anyone who has studied U.S. foriegn policy decisions (especially in the Middle East) over the past 100 years.

I am even more surprised when I see people who live in countries that have been victimized by the greed and carelessness of the U.S. government and U.S. corporations (such as the Bopal disaster where the life of an Indian civilian was calculated to be worth appoximately $100) defending the West.

If a person (or government) oppresses or usurps the rights of someone, they deserve to be condemned (and actively opposed). If they perform a praiseworthy action, they deserve praise.

Salam

Let's just rename the whole site

Islamicity: Bashing the West and other minor Details

The West bashing itself? Unheard of!

Rami, you mean to tell me that you do not have totalian control of the board by yourself? You have to wait for others to help you?

<faints>

Lameese

Lameese wrote: Let's just rename the whole site   Islamicity: Bashing the West and other minor Details

Most of the problems in the world is the result of Western mischief. Muslims alone don't hate the WEst. People in Central and South America, Africans, Asians, Indians and Chinese everyone hates the West. 

I my self have sugested it to the CEO of this site but they refused the idea saying the west does a good job of that for themselves

Westerners, as usual, are great hypocrites.

I think that goes for every Culture :)

There are a lot of Hypocrites in the world and all of them do not reside just in the West.

And I have been all over the world and some hate Westerners and some do not. It all evens out.

And blaming the west for all the problems in the world sounds like a case of not wanting to look at one's self.

Lameese

rami wrote: Bi ismilahir rahmanir raheem i was being sarcastic at your sarcasm i didnt mention anything to the CEO. Only blind people think the west does nothing to make people dislike them. i supose it is to much to ask for a mature atitude from people.

I kind of figured you were being sarcastic so I am not sure why you would think you needed to mention something to the CEO.

And I am very sure the West knows people dislike them.

Mature attitude?

Lameese

There are a lot of Hypocrites in the world and all of them do not reside just in the West.

But the hypocrites of the WEst kill more.

And I have been all over the world and some hate Westerners and some do not. It all evens out.

That is half-truth and worse than a lie. Although everyone does not hate the Westerners, a very large number of people in the world hates them and their number is rapidly increasing. NO other group of people is hated as much as the Westerners. Very few Brazilians hate the Indians, very few Chinese hate the Muslims but a great proportion of all of them hate the WEst.

And blaming the west for all the problems in the world sounds like a case of not wanting to look at one's self.

I didn't say "all", I said most. Australians seem to have problem with ascribing to others what they didn't say.

Bismillah

Many come here to express their concerns, their views, seek some opinions. If these many seem to have some disagreement with what the so-called West is doing, they are free to do so. There is no accusation directed at individual westerners... who often claim that through democracy they can bring about changes.

Things can always be made up to spin a "better tale" and to portray West as the victim now. For self-indulgence you can try logging on to CNN.com. 

Here we prefer to try understand reality by learning from experiences and thoughts of others... Being followers of Islam, which is universal, we try not to fragment people into western, east european, south-east asian or middle easteners. In fact, it is the West that has adopted this approach, distinguished itself as such and raised itself arrogantly above all. 

It is very normal to reap as one has sown, and woud be very strange if it were otherwise.  

MOCKBA wrote: Bismillah Many come here to express their concerns, their views, seek some opinions. If these many seem to have some disagreement with what the so-called West is doing, they are free to do so. There is no accusation directed at individual westerners... who often claim that through democracy they can bring about changes. Things can always be made up to spin a "better tale" and to portray West as the victim now. For self-indulgence you can try logging on to CNN.com.  Here we prefer to try understand reality by learning from experiences and thoughts of others... Being followers of Islam, which is universal, we try not to fragment people into western, east european, south-east asian or middle easteners. In fact, it is the West that has adopted this approach, distinguished itself as such and raised itself arrogantly above all.  It is very normal to reap as one has sown, and woud be very strange if it were otherwise.

You might well try Mockba, but by inferring that the west is arrogant, aren't you being a touch arrogant yourself?

You might well try Mockba, but by inferring that the west is arrogant, aren't you being a touch arrogant yourself?

In this context, not at all. Though i would be interested to know whats your west. 

MOCKBA wrote: You might well try Mockba, but by inferring that the west is arrogant, aren't you being a touch arrogant yourself? In this context, not at all. Though i would be interested to know whats your west.

Mockba, what do you mean by "whats your west"? If you are asking where I am from, I don't think that matters too much. At least it doesn't to me. I like to be universal in outlook. So in order to avoid the dangers of getting too geographically fragmented, I'd rather not say at this point....But I'll give you a clue...It's not Antarctica. :)

[moderator edited]

Surely not Mr Suleyman sir... Although I suppose I could be cited for breaching guidelines by not responding in a particularly Islamic way...Even though the guidelines could be seen as a little unfair on non-Muslim members of this forum. Still I'm sure it is possible to be contentious and at the same time polite... If however contention is a breach of the rules, I can't see the point of having a discussion forum....Perhaps we could have an "agreement forum" instead...

Bismillah

Colin, i completely agree with you on the needless mention of the geographical position data. What i tried to ask is what do you mean when you mention the word west, or what is west in your perception... hence, "what's your west"?

It would be premature to lay ground for disagreements, before ensuring that we are on the same case.

Secondly, "you-are-either-with-us school of thought" came from the west, i presume, and i still do  not find it very friendly... the war with Iraq started against the decision made by the UN, which eventually reduced them to United Nothings... not a sign of togetherness either...  Why do you think this could not be, at some instance, seen as characteristic of west's arrogance?

MOCKBA wrote: Bismillah Colin, i completely agree with you on the needless mention of the geographical position data.

That's good Mockba. :)

What i tried to ask is what do you mean when you mention the word west, or what is west in your perception... hence, "what's your west"?

To me east and west, south and north are irrelevent. We are all humans with similar hopes and fears. Most people would dearly love to live peaceful, law abiding lives with the freedom to get on with their lives without others dictating what they should be thinking. I know that sounds simplistic and hopelessly idealistic, but in my opinion, that is how things should be. 

It would be premature to lay ground for disagreements, before ensuring that we are on the same case.

Indeed it would.

Secondly, "you-are-either-with-us school of thought" came from the west, i presume, and i still do  not find it very friendly... the war with Iraq started against the decision made by the UN, which eventually reduced them to United Nothings... not a sign of togetherness either...

It came from Bush, he may think he speaks for everyone, but he doesn't.

Why do you think this could not be, at some instance, seen as characteristic of west's arrogance?

I see it as a characteristic of Bush, and the Bush administration's arrogance.

ZamanH wrote: And I have been all over the world and some hate Westerners and some do not. It all evens out. That is half-truth and worse than a lie. Although everyone does not hate the Westerners, a very large number of people in the world hates them and their number is rapidly increasing. NO other group of people is hated as much as the Westerners. Very few Brazilians hate the Indians, very few Chinese hate the Muslims but a great proportion of all of them hate the WEst.

Actually, I have been all over the world and that is not what I hear. What I hear is that they hate the West's government but do like the people they have met.  I think people hate due to government and ASSUME that everyone else in the country is like that. Most people are doing what every other person in the world is doing which is just trying to live.

Ummmmm and the Pakistanis and Indians? They love eachother?

You hate over government and use it to justify a whole people.

Lameese

Bismillah

When you take pride in democratic pillars of the state of the western civilization you should be aware that the leader (or President Bush, in this case) of such state represents people's choice. Or perhaps the definition of democracy has also been recently edited. Please update, then.

MOCKBA,

Yeah that is not correct. The West has no control over their government. It is nice to think and even to tell everyone that you own your government but in reality, your government could care less what you think. Do you think your government listens to you?

President Bush asked Congress for $70 billion for his war effort and in the same breath took away severly needed health care for senior citizens. Do you really think the people had a choice in this? And also, Bush is out of favor in the USA. To many people dying and he found nothing and tried to blame others. He is a coward and I especially hope he rots in hell.

The government does what it wants and then attaches the names of all it's citizens. I am not saying that everyone is against the war but the majority are. It has gone on to long and people are disgusted. But to go to Congress and tell them you want it stopped, well, did it work for Vietnam? No. They were just arrested and threatened.

Go to your government and tell them you no long want to pay taxes and throw a fit and see what happenes. Verbal abuse, jail and fines. Why? The could care less what you think.

Lameese

And who needs to be liberated?

MOCKBA wrote: And who needs to be liberated?

Hmmm, don't know, it is not up to anyone person or group to judge that 

Lameese

MOCKBA wrote: Bismillah When you take pride in democratic pillars of the state of the western civilization you should be aware that the leader (or President Bush, in this case) of such state represents people's choice. Or perhaps the definition of democracy has also been recently edited. Please update, then.

The people's choice has a habit of getting rid of bad leaders. It doesn't happen everytime, but because whoever's in power at any given time, knows they are answerable to the democratic process, they abuse their position of power at great risk. Where as a dictator simply throws the opposition in prison...or worse. Democracy is by no means perfect but the alternatives have even more serious flaws. I think it was Winston Churchill who said: "democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"

Colin wrote: The people's choice has a habit of getting rid of bad leaders. It doesn't happen everytime, but because whoever's in power at any given time, knows they are answerable to the democratic process, they abuse their position of power at great risk. Where as a dictator simply throws the opposition in prison...or worse. Democracy is by no means perfect but the alternatives have even more serious flaws. I think it was Winston Churchill who said: "democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"

"Abusing position of power" and "throwing opposition in prison" are just about the same things only worded differently.

MOCKBA wrote: you trap yourself in a full circle, don't you?

not really, but maybe in your mind I do :)

Lameese

MOCKBA wrote: Colin wrote: The people's choice has a habit of getting rid of bad leaders. It doesn't happen everytime, but because whoever's in power at any given time, knows they are answerable to the democratic process, they abuse their position of power at great risk. Where as a dictator simply throws the opposition in prison...or worse. Democracy is by no means perfect but the alternatives have even more serious flaws. I think it was Winston Churchill who said: "democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried" "Abusing position of power" and "throwing opposition in prison" are just about the same things only worded differently.

Not necessarily, but if that's what you wish to believe.. so be it.

ZamanH wrote: Even if its assume that the Westerners don't condone their governments for their unethical actions, it is highly unlikely that they will continue to do so for long, as, they depend for their prosperity on the dirty works of their governments.

Your comprehension of a culture you do not know is just astounding. astounding!   You must live in the West and understand how they are and are a little like that yourself to know them so well.

Lameese

Lameese wrote: Your comprehension of a culture you do not know is just astounding. astounding!   You must live in the West and understand how they are and are a little like that yourself to know them so well.   Lameese

I thought our conversation is is over. Well, its not particularly about Westerners, its more about my views about human-beings, in general. I believe human-beings can act like angels, but usually, they act very selfishly (irrespective of acting morally or immorally).

Bismillah,

Lameese, I agree with you.

Mockba, I agree with you that it is better not to use these definitions of the East and the West.

GWB is in the West and so am I.  Is he the West?  Am I?  This is inaccurate grouping terminology mixing him and me together! Let's fix this also.  (Along with never using Jihad or Islaam in terrorist organization's names.  We rename them Death Cultists as B suggested, or other things as others may suggest.)

Only rich people have been elected president for the longest time.  How are they relevant to me???  Bush and Kerry were just two rich guys without a care or a clue. 

The people at the poll didn't even know how to tell me to write in a candidate!  Fortunately, I figured it out.  This was not a democratic election because of this lack of education on the process and our rights and choices as voters.

West bashing?  I could East bash easily, but that wouldn't be accurate, because it's just some of the people in Jordan (maybe a lot of them) who I could write mean stuff about.  So there would have to be two new forums to be fair; and an active interest in such "discussion".