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taraweeh prayers

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Topic: taraweeh prayers
Posted By: najeeb
Subject: taraweeh prayers
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 10:44pm
bismillah wal salat a'ala muhammad wa aali muhammad...
salam,

this is my first discussion and i hope this will be a fruitful experience. I would like to start with the controversial topic of Taraweeh prayers.

The fact is that these prayers are performed by the Sunnis around the world every Ramadan in congregation in the Mosques, while the imami shia'a perform special nawafil at home.

Of course, each sect has their own arguments. Because of the differing views, I have researched it objectively for my own conviction. For now, I will avoid citing any traditions or references. I will come back to them as needed or requested.

Here are the facts:
1- Taraweeh prayers were not performed at the time of the prophet.
2- on different occasions during ramadan, the companions saw the prophet performing nawafil at night and they lined up behind him to follow his prayers. He admonished them and asked them not to repeat.
3- the prophet decreed that the obligatory prayers are best rewarded when prayed in congregation while the non-obligatory ones are best rewarded when prayed alone at home.
4- the concept of taraweeh was an innovation of umar, the 2nd caliph who encouraged it and started it.

clearly, this practice was not the sunnah of the prophet but a practice initiated by the second caliph, whoo took great pride for it. moreover, the prophet did not allow the companions to perform this practice. The Quran tells us to take from the prophet what he allows us and leave what he forbids us. as muslims, so now, i am convinced that taraweeh is not Sunnah.

please share your thoughts. references are available upon request.

salam






Replies:
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 6:39am
 
 Please give your references. Taraveeh prayer is a Sunnah. The very early Muslims could not be misled so quickly into something bad. You give your supporting views.  Remember that the prophet performed such a prayer for three nights with others. After that he discontinued.
 
 But the people did continue their prayers individually in the mosque. If it was not any important prayer then why did the Muslims do it in the mosque (even if without Imam). They were doing it. Why they were doing it?? You are coming now after 1400 years and telling something strange as if they were doing wrong.
 
 The only change that was made in the Traveeh prayer was after the passing  away of the prophet, i.e. in the time of the 2nd Khalifah, hazrat Umar r.a. Remember that upto that time, the Muslims were praying extra prayers in the mosque individually. Please keep that in mind.
 
 Hazrat Umar only suggested that it would be better done in congregation, under an Imam who will recite the Quran. Hazrat Umar did not make it obligatory. It was left to every one's will, and there could be more than One Jama'at also, no harm. The number that was suggested was 20 Raka'at (portions). There was no harm.
 
 Traveeh has a unbroken history ( Sunnah). Also remember that it was not a bad suggestion by Hazrat Umar. There is a Hadith "My Companions (Sahabah) are like the shining stars. Whomsoever you will follow, you will be guided." So no harm in following the advice of Hazrat Umar r.a.
 
 Also Sunnah is of two types. One is obligatory. The other is non-obligatory.
 


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: najeeb
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 9:57am
salam,
thank you for your response. here are your points:
1- prophet performed such a prayer for three nights with others. After that he discontinued.
2- The Muslims were praying extra prayers in the mosque individually.
3- Umar only suggested that it would be better done in congregation
4- it was not a bad suggestion by Hazrat Umar
5- My Companions (Sahabah) are like the shining stars. Whomsoever you will follow, you will be guided.

I will discuss one point at a time so we can be more efficient. So I will start with point #1. Once we come to an agreement, we'll move to point 2. this way we can focus.

point 1: prophet performed such a prayer for three nights with others. After that he discontinued.

in Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, #134 - Book: al-Adab; Page 1308, #6112 (Arabic version):
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Allah's Apostle made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Apostle came out (of his house) and prayed in it. Some men came and joined him in his prayer. Then again the next night they came for the prayer, but Allah's Apostle delayed and did not come out to them. So they raised their voices and knocked the door with small stones (to draw his attention). He came out to them in a state of anger, saying, "You are still insisting (on your deed, i.e. Tarawih prayer in the mosque) that I thought that this prayer (Tarawih) might become obligatory on you. So you people, offer this prayer at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer."

another one in Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 11, #698 - Book: al-Adhaan; Page 163, #731 (Arabic version):
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Allah's Apostle made a small room in the month of Ramadan (Sa'id said, "I think that Zaid bin Thabit said that it was made of a mat") and he prayed there for a few nights, and so some of his companions prayed behind him. When he came to know about it, he kept on sitting. In the morning, he went out to them and said, "I have seen and understood what you did. You should pray in your houses, for the best prayer of a person is that which he prays in his house except the compulsory prayers."

from these narrations we take the following accurate points:
a- the fact that he made a small room to perform these nawafil in shows that these prayers were not to be congregational. Otherwise, he would have gone to the mosque and proclaim it.
b- the prophet used to perform THE RAMADAN NAWAFIL ALONE every night during his lifetime and so did the companions.
c- the prophet never called the companions to perform these prayers with him in congregation.
d- the companions chose to perform these prayers behind the prophet without his advise or even asking. As a result of their action, he came out to them in a state of anger, with an advice to perform these prayers at home and alone.
e- They never performed these prayers behind him again after that night.
f- he advised them to offer these prayers in their homes (HERE IS THE SUNNAH), because the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except FOR the compulsory (congregational) prayers.

So back to your point: the prophet performed these prayers ALONE, and ordered the companions NOT to perform these prayers in congregation BUT to perform them ALONE AT HOME, as this is BEST for them. Are we not supposed to follow his advice?

do u agree/desagree with any of these facts? these statements are not mine, they are the prophet's.

salam


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 1:21pm
 The statements will have to be checked. I do not agree with you. If the hadith is as you have posted (exactly as you have posted) then you have a point. If there is any variation then your point will not stand. I feel that the Hadith is not as you have mentioned. You have mentioned two hadith.
 
 The first one is different from the second Hadith. The second one seems to be better one. But it will have to be checked. Let us not waste time. I will try to check and give my reply. Until then I do not agree with you on your points. Please go on to discuss my second point. i.e.
2- The Muslims were praying extra prayers in the mosque individually
Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: najeeb
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 10:00pm
bismillah wal salat a'ala muhammad wa aali muhammad...
salam,
let me give u the same narrations in arabic if it helps at all and as they are written in the book of bukhari:
The first one is (http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=9132):
وَقَالَ الْمَكِّيُّ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ ح و حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي سَالِمٌ أَبُو النَّضْرِ مَوْلَى عُمَرَ بْنِ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ بُسْرِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ ثَابِتٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ ‏احْتَجَرَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ حُجَيْرَةً مُخَصَّفَةً أَوْ حَصِيرًا فَخَرَجَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يُصَلِّي فِيهَا فَتَتَبَّعَ إِلَيْهِ رِجَالٌ وَجَاءُوا يُصَلُّونَ بِصَلَاتِهِ ثُمَّ جَاءُوا لَيْلَةً فَحَضَرُوا وَأَبْطَأَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ عَنْهُمْ فَلَمْ يَخْرُجْ إِلَيْهِمْ فَرَفَعُوا أَصْوَاتَهُمْ وَحَصَبُوا الْبَابَ فَخَرَجَ إِلَيْهِمْ مُغْضَبًا فَقَالَ لَهُمْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مَا زَالَ بِكُمْ صَنِيعُكُمْ حَتَّى ظَنَنْتُ أَنَّهُ سَيُكْتَبُ عَلَيْكُمْ فَعَلَيْكُمْ بِالصَّلَاةِ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ فَإِنَّ خَيْرَ صَلَاةِ الْمَرْءِ فِي بَيْتِهِ إِلَّا الصَّلَاةَ الْمَكْتُوبَةَ

the second one is (http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=1177):
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْأَعْلَى بْنُ حَمَّادٍ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا وُهَيْبٌ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ عُقْبَةَ عَنْ سَالِمٍ أَبِي النَّضْرِ عَنْ بُسْرِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ ثَابِتٍ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ اتَّخَذَ حُجْرَةً قَالَ حَسِبْتُ أَنَّهُ قَالَ مِنْ حَصِيرٍ فِي رَمَضَانَ فَصَلَّى فِيهَا لَيَالِيَ فَصَلَّى بِصَلَاتِهِ نَاسٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِهِ فَلَمَّا عَلِمَ بِهِمْ جَعَلَ يَقْعُدُ فَخَرَجَ إِلَيْهِمْ فَقَالَ قَدْ عَرَفْتُ الَّذِي رَأَيْتُ مِنْ صَنِيعِكُمْ فَصَلُّوا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ فَإِنَّ أَفْضَلَ الصَّلَاةِ صَلَاةُ الْمَرْءِ فِي بَيْتِهِ إِلَّا الْمَكْتُوبَةَ

There are more and here is a 3rd one (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, #393 - Book: Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah)
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: The Prophet took a room made of date palm leaves mats in the mosque. Allah's Apostle prayed in it for a few nights till the people gathered (to pray the night prayer (Tarawih) (behind him.) Then on the 4th night the people did not hear his voice and they thought he had slept, so some of them started humming in order that he might come out. The Prophet then said, "You continued doing what I saw you doing till I was afraid that this (Tarawih prayer) might be enjoined on you, and if it were enjoined on you, you would not continue performing it. Therefore, O people! Perform your prayers at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is what is performed at his home except the compulsory congregational) prayer." (See Hadith No. 229,Vol. 3) (See Hadith No. 134, Vol. 8)
حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ أَخْبَرَنَا عَفَّانُ حَدَّثَنَا وُهَيْبٌ حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ عُقْبَةَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا النَّضْرِ يُحَدِّثُ عَنْ بُسْرِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ ثَابِتٍ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ اتَّخَذَ حُجْرَةً فِي الْمَسْجِدِ مِنْ حَصِيرٍ فَصَلَّى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فِيهَا لَيَالِيَ حَتَّى اجْتَمَعَ إِلَيْهِ نَاسٌ ثُمَّ فَقَدُوا صَوْتَهُ لَيْلَةً فَظَنُّوا أَنَّهُ قَدْ نَامَ فَجَعَلَ بَعْضُهُمْ يَتَنَحْنَحُ لِيَخْرُجَ إِلَيْهِمْ فَقَالَ مَا زَالَ بِكُمْ الَّذِي رَأَيْتُ مِنْ صَنِيعِكُمْ حَتَّى خَشِيتُ أَنْ يُكْتَبَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلَوْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمْ مَا قُمْتُمْ بِهِ فَصَلُّوا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ فَإِنَّ أَفْضَلَ صَلَاةِ الْمَرْءِ فِي بَيْتِهِ إِلَّا الصَّلَاةَ الْمَكْتُوبَةَ

They all convey the same point: the prophet advised (which is a sunnah) to prayer the ramadan prayers (nawafil) alone at home. He refused to let these prayers be performed in congragation.

POINT#2: The Muslims were performing extra prayers in the mosque individually (during ramadan), as the prophet told them to do, even though HOME was preferred location. This was the sunnah of the prophet, until Umar changed it.

POINT#3: Umar only suggested that it would be better done in congregation. If the prophet, who was more knowledgeable than Umar with regards to the Laws of Islam, commanded that these prayers are not to be performed in congregration, how could Umar think the contrary??? Has Umar become more knowledgeable than the prophet? Do the opinions of the companions overwrite the Sunnah of the prophet? I truly hope you don;t believe that:

Quran 33:36
It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا

Quran 59:7
...and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back,...
...وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا ...

salam


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 12:22am
 
 I feel that you have provided the good references. It is too fine for me to read. But it is o.k. I agree and thank you. The meaning derived is resting on the fact that the prophet advised the Nawafil to be performed at home rather than the mosque. That was (and is) a good advice. But it does not forbid any one to perform Nafal prayers in the mosques.
 
 please try to understand that the prophet saying that nawafil can be better performed at home is not necessary to be followed in word and deed. If you do not agree to me then I may say that there should only be the Faradh (Obligatory, Congregational) prayers in the mosque, and no other prayer. But that would be wrong and I am sure that you will agree with me on that, I hope you understand my point.
 
 Please do not take the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. as the final words regarding all types of prayers. Otherwise, there will be no prayer of any kind in the mosque other than the congregational prayers. The advice of the prophet is however very good and valid even today. Let me know about my point here.
 
 Now we come to the other part. You agree that the people were in the habit of praying their Taraveeh in the mosque individually. It was Umar who changed the system and told them to pray collectively. Is that right? Is that the problem now?? Please tell me ! I will respond to that, Insha Allah.
 


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: najeeb
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 7:43pm
salam,
i am glad we agree on something. you are right what you say that the advice of the prophet does not forbid any one to perform Nafal prayers in the mosques. However, it is wrong to pray these particular nawafil (ramadan) in the mosque because it is not the sunnah of the prophet. The prophet might have prayed other nawafils in the mosque, but not the ramadan nawafil.

it is our duty as muslims to abide by the quran and the sunnah. The sunnah is clear regarding the nawafil:

"Once Abdullah bin Mas'ud asked the Prophet (s): "Which is better; to pray in my house or in the mosque?" The Prophet (s) replied: "Do you not see how near to the mosque my house is? To pray in my house is more beloved to me than to pray in the mosque except for the obligatory prayers."
Reference: Ibn Majah, Sunan, volume 1, page 439, number 1378

فَصَلُّوا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ فَإِنَّ أَفْضَلَ صَلَاةِ الْمَرْءِ فِي بَيْتِهِ إِلَّا الصَّلَاةَ الْمَكْتُوبَةَ

of course the words of the prophet are the final words. it is him that allah sent to mankind to guide, teach and advise. It is thru him that religion has been completed. so there is NO room for anyone to change what the prophet already established.

on what basis can someone less knowledgeable than the prophet come and change what the prophet had already established? today, the majority of the Muslims practice taraweeh the Umar way and left the prophet's way, which is the best of ways. Also remember that the prophet's way comes from Allah. How could someone override the prophet's way then? what is the rationale behind such thinking? how could the ways of the seal of prophethood, the master of all prophets and the beloved prophet of God be replaced? Don't u agree that Allah desires us to follow his prophet Muhammad? whether Fardh or not, it is still the Sunnah of the prophet. Like Allah said:

Quran 33:36
It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا

does this not mean the way of the prophet is not to be changed?

Quran 59:7
...and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back,...
...وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا...

why should we not follow what the prophet advised and ordered? why should change our practices stemming from opinions to result (and have resulted) into desagreements? why not just pray in the mosque the prayers that were prayed by the prophet and at home those he prayed at home? what does someone have to come and change that??

If we both follow the established sunnah, we'll both agree and we would not be having this discussion. However and unfortunately, one's opinion has to come into play to change and complicate things. The advice of the prophet is the best we have and nothing surpasses it. His way is the true way and anything different is the wrong way. it is commonsense.

furtheremore, any practice that differs from the practice of the prophet is a bida'at, and was treated as such by its innovator, Umar:

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven." Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, "Allah's Apostle died and the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate." 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, "I went out in the company of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, 'In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.' He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night."

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ يُوسُفَ أَخْبَرَنَا مَالِكٌ عَنْ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ عَنْ حُمَيْدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ ‏أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ مَنْ قَامَ رَمَضَانَ إِيمَانًا وَاحْتِسَابًا غُفِرَ لَهُ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِنْ ذَنْبِهِ قَالَ ابْنُ شِهَابٍ فَتُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَالْأَمْرُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ ثُمَّ كَانَ الْأَمْرُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ فِي خِلَافَةِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَصَدْرًا مِنْ خِلَافَةِ عُمَرَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا.
وَعَنْ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ عَنْ عُرْوَةَ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ عَبْدٍ الْقَارِيِّ أَنَّهُ قَالَ خَرَجْتُ مَعَ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ لَيْلَةً فِي رَمَضَانَ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ فَإِذَا النَّاسُ أَوْزَاعٌ مُتَفَرِّقُونَ يُصَلِّي الرَّجُلُ لِنَفْسِهِ وَيُصَلِّي الرَّجُلُ فَيُصَلِّي بِصَلَاتِهِ الرَّهْطُ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ إِنِّي أَرَى لَوْ جَمَعْتُ هَؤُلَاءِ عَلَى قَارِئٍ وَاحِدٍ لَكَانَ أَمْثَلَ ثُمَّ عَزَمَ فَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى أُبَيِّ بْنِ كَعْبٍ ثُمَّ خَرَجْتُ مَعَهُ لَيْلَةً أُخْرَى وَالنَّاسُ يُصَلُّونَ بِصَلَاةِ قَارِئِهِمْ قَالَ عُمَرُ نِعْمَ الْبِدْعَةُ هَذِهِ وَالَّتِي يَنَامُونَ عَنْهَا أَفْضَلُ مِنْ الَّتِي يَقُومُونَ يُرِيدُ آخِرَ اللَّيْلِ وَكَانَ النَّاسُ يَقُومُونَ أَوَّلَهُ

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 32, #227 - Book: al-Tarawih; Page 417, #2009, Page 418, #2010 (Arabic version)

does islam need any innovation when it is complete? again, use your commonsense and be objective.

salam


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 3:41am
 
 Sorry, I cannot convince you more than what I have done. You are not trying to understand that the words of the prophet were with preference. He did not forbid the Muslims to pray in the mosque. I have proved to you that during the life of the prophet, the Sahabah used to pray in the mosque at night (individually). That much is proved. People were doing it even though not collectively. So that is settled.
 
 Also keep in mind that prophet did not prohobit ny one from praying in the mosque at night.
 
 We know that the nawafil are best performed at home by gentlemen. The nawafil for ladies are best performed at home in the inner room. And so on. These are only preferred ways of doing things. If any one perfoms his Salat nawafil in the mosque then it is not a sin or any disobedience of the prophet. If you can understand and agree to that then we will take up the matter further on. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: najeeb
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:12pm
salam,
the following points hjave been established, so far:
1- taraweeh were not performed at the time of the prophet.
2- the prophet prayed the ramadan nawafil at night and alone and not in the mosque.
3- the prophet REFUSED the ramadan nawafil in congregation.
4- the prophet told the companions to perform these nawafils at home and alone.
5- the taraweeh were an innovation of umar and he was proud of such innovation.

You are right. the prophet did not forbid the muslims to pray the nawafil in the mosque. so it is not haram when done in the mosque. However, praying these nawafil in the mosque is less rewarding than praying them at home. Moreover, You say that the words (sunnah) of the prophet were a preference. Okay, let's assume that. Would the preference of Umar BE BETTER and OVERRIDE the preference of the prophet? The "preference" of the prophet comes from God. However, the preference of Umar comes from his opinion. How could you prefer to follow the way of Umar and abandon the way of the prophet??? Finally on this point: Please keep the following ayat in mind before saying i don't want to understand:
Quran 59:7
...and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back,...
...وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا

when someone does not comply with the sunnah of the prophet, is this not some form of desobedience?

You talk about the Sahabah performing the nawafil individually in the mosque at the time of the prophet. This is INCORRECT and when did you prove that? this only happened during the caliphate of the Umar. no narration suggests what you are saying. so that is not proved. so this is not settled.

salam.


Posted By: najeeb
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 9:50am
SALAM,
i would to add few more things for those who have the will to accept the truth and not to stubbornly cling to practices unrelated to the sunnah of the prophet.

[size="4"]
I want to repeat the following narration in sahih bukhari
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven." Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, "Allah's Apostle died and the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate." 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, "I went out in the company of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, 'In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.' He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night."

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ يُوسُفَ أَخْبَرَنَا مَالِكٌ عَنْ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ عَنْ حُمَيْدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ ‏أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ مَنْ قَامَ رَمَضَانَ إِيمَانًا وَاحْتِسَابًا غُفِرَ لَهُ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِنْ ذَنْبِهِ قَالَ ابْنُ شِهَابٍ فَتُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَالْأَمْرُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ ثُمَّ كَانَ الْأَمْرُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ فِي خِلَافَةِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَصَدْرًا مِنْ خِلَافَةِ عُمَرَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا.
وَعَنْ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ عَنْ عُرْوَةَ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ عَبْدٍ الْقَارِيِّ أَنَّهُ قَالَ خَرَجْتُ مَعَ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ لَيْلَةً فِي رَمَضَانَ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ فَإِذَا النَّاسُ أَوْزَاعٌ مُتَفَرِّقُونَ يُصَلِّي الرَّجُلُ لِنَفْسِهِ وَيُصَلِّي الرَّجُلُ فَيُصَلِّي بِصَلَاتِهِ الرَّهْطُ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ إِنِّي أَرَى لَوْ جَمَعْتُ هَؤُلَاءِ عَلَى قَارِئٍ وَاحِدٍ لَكَانَ أَمْثَلَ ثُمَّ عَزَمَ فَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى أُبَيِّ بْنِ كَعْبٍ ثُمَّ خَرَجْتُ مَعَهُ لَيْلَةً أُخْرَى وَالنَّاسُ يُصَلُّونَ بِصَلَاةِ قَارِئِهِمْ قَالَ عُمَرُ نِعْمَ الْبِدْعَةُ هَذِهِ وَالَّتِي يَنَامُونَ عَنْهَا أَفْضَلُ مِنْ الَّتِي يَقُومُونَ يُرِيدُ آخِرَ اللَّيْلِ وَكَانَ النَّاسُ يَقُومُونَ أَوَّلَهُ

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 32, #227 - Book: al-Tarawih; Page 417, #2009, Page 418, #2010 (Arabic version)

from this narration and many others, it is clear that the companions used to pray the nawafil of ramadan (they were not called taraweeh) individually. Now, there is no proof that at the time of the prophet, these companions prayed the nawafil in the mosque (if u claim so). if they did, then these companions regretfully chose not to follow the advice of the prophet who told them that it is best (more rewards) to pray the non-obligatory prayers at home and not in the mosque. Remember the following narration from ibn Majjah:
[size="4"]"Once Abdullah bin Mas'ud asked the Prophet (s): "Which is better; to pray in my house or in the mosque?" The Prophet (s) replied: "Do you not see how near to the mosque my house is? To pray in my house is more beloved to me than to pray in the mosque except for the obligatory prayers." .

There is no reason not to follow the prophet advice and there are plenty of reasons to follow it!

the taraweeh is a clear bida'ah and Umar called it so. Ulamah such as al-qastalani and al-nawawi said:
[size="4"]"It was called BID'AH because the Prophet (s) did not use to pray it in congregation, and neither was it prayed like that in the time of al-Siddiq (referring to the first Caliph), nor in the early part of night or with these number of units."

something else i would like to point out: in the first narration of bukhari i provided, it is said that the prophet came out to them in a state of anger, saying, "You are still insisting (on your deed, i.e. Tarawih prayer in the mosque) that I thought that this prayer (Tarawih) might become obligatory on you. So you people, offer this prayer at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer." How could the prophet be worried that Allah would make these prayers a congregational obligation when to Allah it is best to pray the supererogatory prayers at home? does this make any sense? of course, the prophet will contradict himself. it is just i that the report has some flaws in it.

i did my best and i hope this will open up some eyes.

salam



Posted By: Hamzah
Date Posted: 11 June 2008 at 6:21am
Personally i pray it sometimes in the mosque and sometimes at home with the wife and kids.

The prophet prayed it 3 days and each day the mosque became more full till it chocked with worshippers and the prophet stopped it because he was afraid it would become an obligation on his umma and that they would find it hard to follow.

Actually Omar was praying Taraweeh at home, but he advised those who pray individually in the mosque to pray it in congregation, but he was not offering the prayer with them in the mosque.

What are you trying to prove?
that Omar went against what the prophet said?
if so, i just want to say one thing before you go on making these acusations that i only hear from Shia's!
When Allah said to the prophet in Surah Al-Duha: and (Allah will give you till he satisfies you)
this included in his life and death
Omar was burried next to the prophet as was Abu bakr, so do not go into these waters brother, concentrate on your self and your flaws as a human, leave these great men alone for Wallah they will be the closest the prophet on the day of judgment, you will not be asked about them, you will be asked about your self.
may Allah guide us all.


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"Whosoever fears Allah, he will appoint for him a way out, and provide for him from where he does not expect"


Posted By: Hamzah
Date Posted: 11 June 2008 at 6:54am
Saheeh al-Bukhaaree: Volumn 005, Book 057, Hadith Number 038
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is 'Umar."


Saheeh Muslim: Book 031, Hadith Number 5901/5902
Chapter : The excellent qualities of 'Umar (Allah be pleased with him).

'Aisha (& Sa'd b. Ibrahim) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There had been among the people before you inspired persons and if there were any such among my Umma Umar b. Khattab would be one of them. Ibn Wahb explained the word Muhaddathun as those who receive hint from the High (Mulhamun).

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"Whosoever fears Allah, he will appoint for him a way out, and provide for him from where he does not expect"


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 03 September 2008 at 4:35am
Salaams..
 
b4 we go into the merits of the sahaaba, y dont u prove that taraweeh is the sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)...
 
wsalaam


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 03 September 2008 at 12:19pm
 This is another indirect way of attacking the Great Imams of the Ummah, i.e. hazrat Abubakr and hazrat Umar. The muslims were well organised during the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. They could not be wrong. They were prayer mongers. And we know that not all people have good facility to pray at home. The prayer at home can be disturbed too.
 
 Mosque is meant for prayer. These Ahadith which have been shown about this subject have been worked upon by some one. Now I would raise a question to najeeb and company about Sunnah. What does he consider exactly that Sunnah is?  Those words of Hadith are Sunnah? I am sure they are not. They are just Hadith. Written and compiled by some men two hundred years after the prophet. Those are the sayings of the prophet s.a.w.s. and not the doings of the prophet.
 
 The people learnt by watching the prophet what he was doing. This was done by large number of people, many people.  The words of the prophet were sometime not heard by many people.Only few (on or two) people heard it then later passed it on to another and another and so on.
 
 Whereas the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. was from the very first day and large number saw it being done, the Hadith was limited to just a few people and was collected compiled after many years. The Hadith has an inferior status compared to the Sunnah.
 
 Please remember that there are three things for our Guidance.
 
1. The Quran is the foremost and uppermost.
2. Next is the Sunnah i.e. the practice of the prophet.
3. Next is the Hadith, the sayings (or doings) of the prophet as described in books of Hadith.
 
 The last item (hadith) is to serve the Quran and Sunnah. Hadith is never to take charge (overtake) of the Quran and Sunnah. Any Hadith which is against the Quran and Sunnah should be rejected. Any hadith which is against any well known authentic Hadith should also be rejected.
 
 Because if we do not do that then we may have to reject the verses of the Quran for the sake of a conflicting Hadith. Or we may have to reject a well known Hadith for another doubtful hadith. In both cases, it will be wrong to admit that conflicting Hadith.

The above was something about the status of various Hadith. In the matters of Hadith, we have two tests also.

1. The Darayat. That will check if the material is good and fair as per Quran and Sunnah.

2. The Rawayat.That will check if the chain of narrators is correct.

 If any Hadith does not pass the first test then there is no need to go for the second test. The chain of narrators may be good. Yet the Hadith may be malafide.

najeeb has got all matter hanging on some Ahadith. And he wants to turn the things upside down on the basis of a few Hadith. That is not posible. It is proved that people used to pray Traveeh in the mosque individually during the life of the prophet s.a.w.s. Even the prophet himself did it for three days only.

When the prophet passed away, the practice continued. That is all proved and even najeeb cannot deny it. He is however worried about why did hazrat Umar make it congragational. then supported by his bundle of Ahadith, najeeb jumped onto Hazrat Umar for starting something wrong. That was bad of najeeb. najeeb forgot another important aspect of this case too.

The month of Ramadhan is something special about the Quran. It is not an ordinary month. The reading of the Quran is very important in that month. That is being done very well. So what objection should any one have? it is silly to dig up something now after 1400 years and start the objection.The Muslim masses are solidly sticking to the teachings of Islam. There is no mistake.

However some Ahle Hadith people have recently opened the books of Hadith and found some differences in the way of prayers and they have also started objections.. That is also wrong. There is no mistake. The very early Muslims were very good, specially those elected as Imams of the Ummah (Caliphs) were almost perfect.. traveeh is a system to read or hear the Quran in the month of ramadhan. That is being done in various ways. If najeeb wants to pray at home, he can do it. Rather he has to do that since he had that bundle of Ahadith researched. So he can do it at home.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 03 September 2008 at 1:34pm
Salaams....
 
i asked u a simple basic question....instead of answering it....u went on to discuss the definations of hadith and sunnah and quran....and the merits of praying in mosque.......i dont know where does all this come in this debate...
 
please prove it to me that taraweeh is a sunnah of the prophet (a.s)......and this can only be done thru hadith and sunnah....and not thru ure common sense.....
 
if it is not the sunnah of the prophet (a.s)....then is it a "innovation" started by the so called sahaabas???
 
to admin/mod:it is odd that my post took hours to get approved....and the reply came within no time....


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 04 September 2008 at 7:46am
  Yes, asda, it is a Sunnah. Sunnah is also of two types. The obligatory and non-obligatory.
 
 Traveeh is a non-obligatory Sunnah. It is a genuine prayer practiced by the Sahabah and later modified by Hazrat Umar. I have given you the reply. Please do not call sahabah, the so-called sahabah. Mind it.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 04 September 2008 at 7:57am
 Asda, you are worried why I entered the field of Hadith. Did you see the bundle of Ahadith by which najeeb was trying to prove that Salat Traveeh was false? If you have not seen then please go back and see all those Hadith on which najeeb rested his case.
 
 Also I will ask you just one question which I should have asked you before giving any reply. Tell me how you will prove a Sunnah? Please tell. You are asking "Is Traveeh a Sunnah?"  I ask you how you will prove a Sunnah. What is a Sunnah and how do you learn something is a Sunnah or not?  Welcome.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: najeeb
Date Posted: 04 September 2008 at 9:06am
salam and ramadan kareem to all.
first, i am neither a scholar nor an imam. i am a muslim and so is my wife. one is a shia and the other a sunni. we realised our differences and i took the initiative to read and learn in order to know what the truth is. the only way to learn what the truth is is to put aside all you know today, be objective and start from scratch.

second, i started this discussion with the objective to bring awareness and not cause disension. there is no need to go haywire and start usig profanities. the purpose of inter/intrafaith dialogue is to promote knowledge to replace ignorance. The Quran encourages to bring proof to support your claims. So all this is about is: bring your proof and I shall bring mine. don't let your emotions control the dialogue. if you can't have a decent and respectful discussion, then u r in the wrong forum. and no one is attacking any companion.

claiming that "These Ahadith which have been shown about this subject have been worked upon by some one" is a weak defence. these same hadith you are talkng about make your belief system today. YOU HAVE PROOF, BRING IT. YOU HAVE NOTHING, THEN LEARN AND APPRECIATE (i am not yelling).

Sunnah is everything the prophet SAID and DID. obligatory or not is irrelevant, but do it the Rasul way.

1- all the narrations prove one thing: the prophet did not practice taraweeh. and this word did not even exist at his time. it was neither practiced at the time of abu bakr. therefore, it was not never a prophetic sunnah.

2- umar is the one who started it.
3- Ahlul Bayt never practiced it and considered it an innovation.

it is hard for many of you to believe that the companions can innovate or do smth wrong and bad. well, look back into history: what did the people of Moses do when Moses left for 40 nights and put Harun as his deputy? did they not turn their heels away from religion and started worship the golden cow they made? what about the twelveth apostle of Jesus who betrayed him? why is it so easy for you to believe that but difficult when it comes to the companions. let me give some hadith (all in sahih muslim/bukhari to prove my point:

The prophet also warned the companions from turning their back to religion:
Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount, and some of you will be brought in front of me till I will see them and then they will be taken away from me and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will be said, 'You do not know what they did after you had left.'
حدثني يحيى بن حماد: حدثنا أبو عوانة، عن سليمان، عن شقيق، عن عبد الله، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: أنا فرطكم على الحوض.
وحدثني عمرو بن علي: حدثنا محمد بن جعفر: حدثنا شعبة، عن المغيرة قال: سمعت أبا وائل، عن عبد الله رضي الله عنه، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: أنا فرطكم على الحوض، وليرفعنَّ رجال منكم ثم ليختلجنَّ دوني، فأقول: يا رب أصحابي؟ فيقال: إنك لا تدري ما أحدثوا بعدك

Narrated Asma 'bint Abu Bakr: The Prophet said, "I will be standing at the Lake-Fount so that I will see whom among you will come to me; and some people will be taken away from me, and I will say, 'O Lord, (they are) from me and from my followers.' Then it will be said, 'Did you notice what they did after you? By Allah, they kept on turning on their heels (turned as renegades).' " The sub-narrator, Ibn Abi Mulaika said, "O Allah, we seek refuge with You from turning on our heels, or being put to trial in our religion."
‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سعيد بن أبي مريم ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏نافع بن عمر ‏ ‏قال حدثني ‏ ‏ابن أبي مليكة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أسماء بنت أبي بكر ‏ ‏رضي الله عنهما ‏ ‏قالت ‏
‏قال النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏إني على الحوض حتى أنظر من يرد علي منكم وسيؤخذ ناس دوني فأقول يا رب مني ومن أمتي فيقال هل شعرت ما عملوا بعدك والله ما برحوا يرجعون على أعقابهم ‏ ‏فكان ‏ ‏ابن أبي مليكة ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏اللهم إنا نعوذ بك أن نرجع على أعقابنا أو نفتن عن ديننا

Narrated Uqba bin Amir: Allah's Apostle offered the funeral prayers of the martyrs of Uhud eight years after (their death), as if bidding farewell to the living and the dead, then he ascended the pulpit and said, "I am your predecessor before you, and I am a witness on you, and your promised place to meet me will be Al-Haud (i.e. the Tank) (on the Day of Resurrection), and I am (now) looking at it from this place of mine. I am not afraid that you will worship others besides Allah, but I am afraid that worldly life will tempt you and cause you to compete with each other for it." That was the last look which I cast on Allah's Apostle.
‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن عبد الرحيم ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏زكرياء بن عدي ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏ابن المبارك ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏حيوة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏يزيد بن أبي حبيب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي الخير ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عقبة بن عامر ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏صلى رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏على قتلى ‏ ‏أحد ‏ ‏بعد ثماني سنين ‏ ‏كالمودع ‏ ‏للأحياء والأموات ثم طلع المنبر فقال ‏ ‏إني بين أيديكم ‏ ‏فرط ‏ ‏وأنا عليكم شهيد وإن موعدكم الحوض وإني لأنظر إليه من مقامي هذا وإني لست أخشى عليكم أن تشركوا ولكني أخشى عليكم الدنيا أن تنافسوها قال فكانت آخر نظرة نظرتها إلى رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم

Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"

Narrated Jarir: The Prophet ordered me during Hajjatul-Wada'. "Ask the people to listen." He then said, "Do not become infidels after me by cutting the necks (throats) of one another."
‏حدثنا ‏ ‏حفص بن عمر ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏شعبة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏علي بن مدرك ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي زرعة بن عمرو بن جرير ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏جرير ‏ ‏أن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال في حجة الوداع ‏ ‏لجرير ‏ ‏استنصت الناس فقال ‏ ‏لا ترجعوا بعدي كفارا يضرب بعضكم رقاب بعض

In sahih Muslim:
ترد عليَّ أُمّتي الحوض وأنا أذود الناس كما يذود الرجل إبل الرجل عن إبله... وليصدن عنّي طائفة منكم فلا يصلون، فأقول: يا ربّ! هؤلاء من أصحابي، فيجيئني ملك فيقول: وهل تدري ما أحدثوا بعدك؟!

Also in Sahih Muslim:
إنّي على الحوض أنتظر من يرد عليّ منكم، ليقتطعن دوني رجالاً فلأقولنَّ: أي ربّ منّي ومن أُمّتي، يقول إنّك لا تدري ما أحدثوا بعدك، ما زالوا يرجعون على أعقابهم

u will not see a Sunni imam talk about this in the mosque. you want to know why? because this will raise questions about the companions, and the implications can be bad, really bad!

not all companions were good. many were good and remained good, while others strayed off after the prophet, and others knew how to hide their hypocrisy. this is a fact, so accept it with pride. no shame in truth. want proof from quran, ask for it and i shall bring it.

as for umar and Abu Bakr: what u don't know is what u should know and what u know is fallacy. but this is not the objective of this discussion. let's just stick to salat al-taraweeh.

to make this productive, if u have legitimate questions, then ask them. if you want to make accusations, drop them because this will just promote discord. if smth does not make sense to you, then ask. i will ignore all insults and accusations made and ask allah to forgive us all.

salam








Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 04 September 2008 at 1:46pm
Salaams...

in my initial reply....i will like to adress br najeeb..

Ramadan kareem to u as well...
br. i would request u to please remain on the topic...as we r discussing taraweeh here....and not the ppl who were with the prophet (a.s)...thats a very big topic....and shud be kept aside wen we r discussing taraweeh...


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 04 September 2008 at 1:53pm
now to br.minuteman...
thnx for ure welcome..


to prove a sunnah one has to have hadith which describes the prophet (a.s) doing an act....the hadith is a source to derrive sunnah....u hav said hadith is less important than sunnah..
Quote Hadith is never to take charge (overtake) of the Quran and Sunnah.

now i ask u......from where do u derrive the sunnah if not from hadith....is there any other source...
my second question: is all the sunnah of the prophet (a.s) has to be followed...or in short....are all the acts of th prophet (a.s) a recomended act? (other than waajibaat)

my 1st question still remains...please prove it to me that taraweeh is a sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)?
and that can only be done thru hadith..

if there is any other way to derrive a sunnah then plese let me know....


i hope this gets approves ASAP!!!!

regards
asda


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 04 September 2008 at 4:41pm
 
   ASDA,  What do you say? traveeh is a Sunnah or not? Please tell me. Then I will answer all your questions. If it is not a sunnah then what would say is Traveeh?


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 04 September 2008 at 4:51pm
 
 to najeeb,  you are wandering into wrong fields while preaching to others to behave and remain calm. Whatever you re thinking is wrong and you will be proved wrong very easily.
 
 You have admitted that upto the time of the 2nd Imam Hazrat Umar r.a. all was well. It was Umar who started the wrong practice. Okay. Then the matter will become easy and you will be disproved very soon about the Salaat Traveeh.
 
 Your problem is traveeh only. You do not believe that it is Sunnah. That Hazrat Umar r.a. started the present day system. That is your problem. It will be solved very soon. Just stick around please. And do not ever discuss other things beside the actual topic.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: najeeb
Date Posted: 04 September 2008 at 10:08pm
salam,
taraweeh and only taraweeh it is. first, may allah accept our fasting and prayers - TAQABALALLAH

Minuteman: yes, what u have said is what I have claimed based on what is written in the books of hadith and history. there is nothing to disprove here. here are more facts, all from Sunnis sources, which are also in Shia'a sources.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 32, #227 - Book: al-Tarawih:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven." Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, "Allah's Apostle died and the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate." 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, "I went out in the company of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, 'In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.' He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night."

ibn Shayba in al-Kitab al-Mussanaf, al-Tabari in his Tarikh and ibn Asakir in his Tarikh Dimashq reported:
The first who made the people pray the night prayers in congregation during Ramadan is Umar ibn al-Kattab.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, #393 - Book: Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah:
... The Prophet said, O people! Perform your prayers at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is what is performed at his home except the compulsory congregational) prayer."

Ibn Majah, Sunan, volume 1, page 439, number 1378
"Once Abdullah bin Mas'ud asked the Prophet (s): "Which is better; to pray in my house or in the mosque?" The Prophet (s) replied: "Do you not see how near to the mosque my house is? To pray in my house is more beloved to me than to pray in the mosque except for the obligatory prayers."

Imam Muhyiddeen al-Nawawi commented on the narration in Sahih Muslim:
Allah's Apostle died and the people continued observing that and it remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate. It means every one was performing the night prayer during Ramadan alone at home until the early days of 'Umar's Caliphate. So Umar brought them all together to perform the prayer in one big congregation.

Badriddeen al-A'ayni in his U'umdatul Qari commented:
...Umar did not participate in the congregational prayer, as if he prefered to perform it alone at home late at night...And to that point, al-Tahawi said that al-Taraweeh at home is better...Umar called it a Bida'a because it was not the Sunnah of the prophet and was not performed at the time of Abu Bakr...
ورواه محمد بن نصر في كتاب: قيام الليل له من هذا الوجه، فقال: سليمان بن أبي حثمة بدل: تميم الداري، ولعل ذلك كان في وقتين. قوله: �ثم خرجت معه� أي: مع عمر ليلة أخرى، وفيه إشعار بأن عمر، رضي الله تعالى عنه، كان لا يواظب الصلاة معهم، وكأنه يرى أن الصلاة في بيته أفضل، ولا سيما في آخر الليل، وعن هذا قال الطحاوي: التراويح في البيت أفضل. قوله: �نعم البدعة�، ويروى: �نعمت البدعة�، بزيادة التاء، ويقال: نعم، كلمة تجمع المحاسن كلها، وبئس، كلمة تجمع المساوئ كلها، وإنما دعاها بدعة لأن رسول الله، صلى الله عليه وسلم، لم يسنها لهم، ولا كانت في زمن أبي بكر، رضي الله تعالى عنه. ورغب رسول الله، صلى الله عليه وسلم، فيها بقوله: نعم، ليدل على فضلها، ولئلا يمنع هذا اللقب من فعلها. والبدعة في الأصل أحداث أمر لم يكن في زمن رسول الله، صلى الله عليه وسلم

al-Bukhari in his Sahih also commented:
It was called it a Bida'a because it was not the Sunnah of the prophet...سماها بدعة لأنها لم يسنها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, #134 - Book: al-Adab
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Allah's Apostle made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Apostle came out (of his house) and prayed in it. Some men came and joined him in his prayer. Then again the next night they came for the prayer, but Allah's Apostle delayed and did not come out to them. So they raised their voices and knocked the door with small stones (to draw his attention). He came out to them in a state of anger, saying, "You are still insisting on your deed that I thought that this prayer might become obligatory on you. So you people, offer this prayer at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer."

For several nights during the month of Ramadan, the prophet intended to pray alone in a small room he made in the mosque. But some of the companions came and joined him in his prayers making it congregational. If the prophet wanted the companions to pray behind him, would he not have called them to perform it with him? Would he not have chosen a bigger place like the entire mosque to accomodate all the Muslims? It is clear that the fact that the prophet chose a small room with a door to perform these night prayers, he did not intend for anyone to join him. Moreover, on the upcoming nights, the prophet closed the door of the small room. Does this not further prove the prophet's unwillingness to let the companions pray behind him???

When the companions insisted to pray behind the prophet (despite the prophet's efforts not to let them), he came out to them in a state of anger. He was not angry because they raised their voices and knocked the door with small pebbles. But he was angry because of the companions persistence to pray behind him. His anger further proves that he did not want anyone to pray behind him.

The prophet clearly told the companions to offer this prayer at their homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer. Therefore, whatever prayer the prophet was performing those nights, it was best to offer it INDIVIDUALLY AT HOME, as the prophet was doing in that small room.

So this night prayer (nawafil ramadan) is not to be prayed in congregation in the mosque. However, it is to be prayed individually at home because, as the prophet said, the best prayer of a person is what is performed at his home except the compulsory congregational prayers. any deviation from that is a bida'a. I can't be any clearer than this.

I would like to end with this verse:
Quran 33:36
It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

I hope this helps.

wassalam


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 05 September 2008 at 3:18am
sir, i say that taraveeh is not a sunnah....

and if it is a sunnah...then there shud be hadith on this matter....

i wud repeat my questions to u so that its ez for u to answer:
Quote now i ask u......from where do u derrive the sunnah if not from hadith....is there any other source...
my second question: is all the sunnah of the prophet (a.s) has to be followed...or in short....are all the acts of th prophet (a.s) a recomended act? (other than waajibaat)

my 1st question still remains...please prove it to me that taraweeh is a sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)?


i am not telling u to look into shii books....u can refer me to sunni books as well...


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 September 2008 at 2:02am
Originally posted by asda asda wrote:

sir, i say that taraveeh is not a sunnah....

and if it is a sunnah...then there shud be hadith on this matter....

i wud repeat my questions to u so that its ez for u to answer:
Quote now i ask u......from where do u derrive the sunnah if not from hadith....is there any other source...
my second question: is all the sunnah of the prophet (a.s) has to be followed...or in short....are all the acts of th prophet (a.s) a recomended act? (other than waajibaat)

my 1st question still remains...please prove it to me that taraweeh is a sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)?


i am not telling u to look into shii books....u can refer me to sunni books as well...
 
  asda, I have colored the part in red above. That is your mistake. It is not necessary for every Sunnah to be a Hadith. You know that Sunnah had been with the Ummah from the very first day without break. But the books of Hadith (differeing versions) came on the scene after more than 200 years.
 
 There was no Hadith available in those days. But people were praying and doing all the works and doing Hajj too. That was not by any Hadith, nor was Hadith available in those day for every one. Do you believe in those days people did not pray or perform Hajj? Or not fasted during month of Ramadhan?.
 
All the religion was complete and being practiced. The Hadith were not known to every one. But the daily practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. (known as his way or Sunnah) was known to every one from the very first day. remember the Sunant is the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. It is what he did and peopel saw it and copied it in large numbers at once till this day.
 
I did not learn the religion from the books of Hadith. You know that Shias have Hadith of their own. The Sunnis have their own. The ahle Hadith have their own selected Hadith. Every one has his own bundle of Hadith and all the differences that are arising in the Ummah are due to the Hadith only. I know some Hadith may be common between different sects. But they are far and few. Some are controversial, some people generated those Hadith.
 
 It is well known that Imam Bukhari had a record of more than 100,000 fabricated Ahadith. That was about 1300 years ago. What happened after that, who knows.
 
 I had told you and I tell you again to consider that there are three things to be followed, namely:
 
1. The Quran.
2. The Sunnah (The practcie of the prophet)
3. Hadith (The traditions in the books of Hadith)
 
 All these are to be followed in that order of importance. The Hadith gives support to the Quran and Sunnah. It helps the Quran and Sunnah. It serves the Quran and Sunnah. But Hadith cannot take charge of the Quran and Sunnah. It has to follow the Quran and Sunnah.
 
 There is constant practice of the Ummah about everything from generation to generation to this day. Try to see that and trust that first. That is not wrong. Do not go, get hold of a book to disprove the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. The prophet practically translated the whole of the Quran by his example and all people saw it and followed it to this day. Those people are called Sunnis. They give importance to the Sunnat after the Quran. Somethings are learnt by the  books of Hadith too.
 
 On the other hand there are others who are ahle Hadith. They give more importance to the rawayat ( the narratives) of Hadith in the books after the quran and ignore the practical side of the matter. They are called ahle Hadith.
\
 I had explained all to you before. But you said that I should not give lecture on the matetrs of Hadith. Why?  Then why are you resting all your case on the Hadith now?


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 September 2008 at 2:09am
 
  najeeb, my reply to you is the same as I have given to asda. You have brought many hadith in support against the salat Traveeh. Your case is entirely based on the  various Hadith. So a reply is given to you.
 
 You are making a double attack on the system of Salat Traveeh.
1. You are pressing ahead that the prophet forbade such a prayer.
2. That hazrat Umar r.a. organised this bad system of Traveeh (in congragation, i.e Baa Jamaat)).
 
 Please tell me if that is your belief or is it only one problem or both of the above. Then which one? Let me know what is your problem from the two mentioned above? I will soon reply. But keep to the point that I am asking, please.
 Thanks.
 


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 September 2008 at 2:34am
Originally posted by Hamzah Hamzah wrote:

Saheeh al-Bukhaaree: Volumn 005, Book 057, Hadith Number 038
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is 'Umar."


Saheeh Muslim: Book 031, Hadith Number 5901/5902
Chapter : The excellent qualities of 'Umar (Allah be pleased with him).

'Aisha (& Sa'd b. Ibrahim) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There had been among the people before you inspired persons and if there were any such among my Umma Umar b. Khattab would be one of them. Ibn Wahb explained the word Muhaddathun as those who receive hint from the High (Mulhamun).
 
 With your permission, may I alter the wording slightly please. Because the word inspired does not describe very well. In the Hadith quoted, it says that in the previous Ummah, there were men (and women) to whom Allah spoke even though they were not prophets...  And if there is any in my Ummah then Umar is surely one of them. (Such people are called Muhaddathoon).
 
 So the word inspiration is not suitable. Inspiration is a self thought or something put in the mind. But revelation is much higher than inspiration. And all revelation may not be the prophetic one. There is other ordinary kind of revelation too such as was done to the mother of Moses and mother of Isa a.s.  and to the disciples of Jesus a.s.
 
That revelation was not part of any Shariyah.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 06 September 2008 at 5:50am
as far as i can understand...u r trying to tell me in shugar-coated words that the sunnah are a set of costums set by the prophet, and hadith are his saying....and sunnah has more importance than hadith...cuz hadith was NEVER written at the time of Prophet (a.s)......

well this surly goes against some of the greatest books of sunni's...

Was hadith ever written when the prophet (a.s) said them???
well this is how ure books answer them:

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 3639 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As

I used to write everything which I heard from the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). I intended (by it) to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure? So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). He signalled with his finger to him mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it.




Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 1.113 Narrated by Abu Huraira

There is none among the companions of the Prophet who has narrated more Hadiths than I except 'Abdullah bin Amr (bin Al-'As) who used to write them and I never did the same.




now the second question is.....was the actions of the Prophet (a.s) preserved after his death??? the answer is a big no:


Volume 1, Book 10, Number 507:Narrated Ghailan:

Anas said, "I do not find (now-a-days) things as they were (practiced) at the time of the Prophet." Somebody said "The prayer (is as it was.)" Anas said, "Have you not done in the prayer what you have done? Narrated Az-Zuhri that he visited Anas bin Malik at Damascus and found him weeping and asked him why he was weeping. He replied, "I do not know anything which I used to know during the life-time of Allah's Apostle except this prayer which is being lost (not offered as it should be)."




now how can u rely normal fallable human beings to transmit sunnah for years...when u know for fact that when even a small sentence transmits within 10 ppl within 5 minutes....the whole sentence changes.....how can u call the sunnah of the prophet(a.s) mere customs when as soon after the prophet (a.s) the actions were changed...


surprisingly u hav even challenged the authenticity of bukhari...which is in contrast to what ure scholars said....

br....u hav not supported ure actions with anything but wat fits ure mind and as u hav liked it.....i ask...in islam does one acts according to wat allah (s.w.t) likes or according to wat an individual likes??

u hav not even supported ure faith by any book by any scholar!!!


so if something like normal prayer was changed after the prophet (a.s)....how can u expect ppl to practice the sunnah of the prophet (a.s) hundreds of years after his death??

and so....how can u even say that sunnah of the prophet was mere costom...and the facts of it was just wat everyone knew...and till today it is being followed as it was done by the prophet (a.s)???

my list of questions are increasing with ure replies...cuz ure views has surprised me...it has no base at all...

br in the end i want to say is that i dont mean to offend u...


Posted By: najeeb
Date Posted: 06 September 2008 at 10:22am
salam,
for now, the hadith about inspiration is obviously a fabrication and the pre-islamic history of Umar and his history after the demise of the prophet will show that. no further comment. do your research.

in your different responses, you have diverged from the topic of taraweeh and started talking about other things. u have still not proven me wrong. i will respond to your mains points.

as for taraweeh:

POINT1: i don't have a problem if the sunnis pray taraweeh. this is between themselves and Allah. however, i don't understand why they are doing it when all hadith and scholars understanding show that it was not the practice of the prophet, but an innovation of the companions, which umar perfected. i have used a legitimate way to prove my point. Now, please, u can either prove me wrong legitimately or accept my prove, and close the case.

POINT2: my friend, all scholars (shia'a and sunnis) have derived the Sunnah of the prophet from hadith. that is what abu hanifa, al-maliki, al-shafii and ahmad ibn handbal, & everyone did, except those who don't believe in hadith. the interpretation of the quran by each scholar is also based on these hadith, and unfortunately many have introduced their opinions as well!

therefore, what i believe and what i don't believe, is based on the quran and the hadith, from which (hadith) the sunnah is derived. it only logically follows that i have to use hadith to prove my point. no other way around it.

POINT3:
hadith was not written 200 years after the demise of the prophet. in fact, there are many narrations which suggest the contrary. and of course, there are narrations that support your claim, and i consider them fabrications because the idea is illogical.

Think about it logically: just like the quran was written upon revelation, the hadith was also getting written at the time of the prophet. writting is the best way to preserve both sources because people are prone to forgetting, which will ultimately result in unintentional or intentional alterations. there is no valid and logical reason for not allowing the writing of the hadith at the time of the prophet. the importance of the Sunnah warrants such preservation. do u think the companions will be able to remember the entire sharia'a? is this possible? do u remember everything u hear from your intructor at school in a 1 hour class? no u don't. u pick up some pieces but at the end, you rely on your book.

here are some narrations:
Mustadrak al-Hakim, musnad ahmad, sunan abu dawud, sunan al-darima:
. Abdullah ibn Umar has said: "I used to write down whatever I heard from the Messenger of Allah, so Quraysh prohibited me from doing so saying, `Do you write everything you hear from the Messenger of Allah who is a human being talking in anger or when pleased?' So I stopped writing, then I told the Messenger of Allah about it, whereupon he pointed to his mouth and said, `Keep writing, for by the One Who holds my soul do I swear that nothing comes out of it except the truth.'"

al-Bukhari refers to the sahifah of Ali which contains written hadith:
Narrated Ash-Sha'bi: Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked Ali, 'Have you got any book (which has been revealed to the Prophet apart from the Qur'an)?' 'Ali replied, 'No, except Allah's Book or the power of understanding which has been bestowed (by Allah) upon a Muslim or what is (written) in this sheet of paper (sahifah).' Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked, 'What is (written) in this sheet of paper?' Ali replied, it deals with The Diyya (compensation (blood money) paid by the killer to the relatives of the victim), the ransom for the releasing of the captives from the hands of the enemies, and the law that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for the killing of (a disbeliever).


Imam Ja`far al-Sadiq has said, "We have the saheefa; it is seventy yards long: it is the dictation of the Messenger of Allah written down in the hand-writing of Ali. Nothing permissible or prohibitive the knowledge thereof is needed by people, nor any other issue, except that it is in it, even the penalty for inflicting an offense as minor as a tiny scratch on someone's cheek."

bukhari:
Narrated 'Ali: We have no Book to recite except the Book of Allah (Qur'an) and this paper. Then 'Ali took out the paper, and behold ! There was written in it, legal verdicts about the retaliation for wounds, the ages of the camels (to be paid as Zakat or as blood money). In it was also written: 'Medina is a sanctuary from Air (mountain) to Thaur (mountain). So whoever innovates in it an heresy (something new in religion) or commits a crime in it or gives shelter to such an innovator, will incur the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and none of his compulsory or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection. And whoever (a freed slave) takes as his master (i.e. be-friends) some people other than hi real masters without the permission of his real masters, will incur the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and none of his compulsory, or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection. And the asylum granted by any Muslim is to be secured by all the Muslims, even if it is granted by one of the lowest social status among them; and whoever betrays a Muslim, in this respect will incur the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, and none of his Compulsory or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection."

if all the narrations i have presented were just in the Shia'a books, then you may have the right to disprove them. but it is harder to disprove them when they are considered authentic by the shia'a and sunnis.

i am going to make this my last contribution and move on because this is not going anywhere. i will just let u ponder on all of this and inchallah, the truth will become clear. just think about it, seriously. the bottom line is reaching conviction and mutual understanding, rather than condemnation!

salam


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 September 2008 at 8:48pm
 
 First asda:
 
 as far as i can understand...u r trying to tell me in shugar-coated words that the sunnah are a set of costums set by the prophet, and hadith are his saying....and sunnah has more importance than hadith...cuz hadith was NEVER written at the time of Prophet (a.s)......

well this surly goes against some of the greatest books of sunni's...


Was hadith ever written when the prophet (a.s) said them???
well this is how ure books answer them.
 
 Again your books and my books. it seems that you  have different books. Never mind. 
 
 You and I are in disagreement. I have explained to you that there were no books of Hadith in circulation and the religion was all well. The prayers and Hajj was going on without any Hadith. I have pointed out to the practice (doings) of the holy prophet to you. But you do not go near it. You ignore that completely. Some of those doings (practice of the prophet) was later written in the books of Hadith too. But that was long time after the demise of the prophet.
 
 You do not seem to acknowledge the role of the Sunnah. Perhaps you do not understand it or you ignore it or do not like it. Again you are taking the matter into some books of the Sunnis etc.
 
 I do not go into them as far as the various religious rites are concerned. You know that the books of Hadith were compiled about 100 to 200 years after the prophet. So they are late comers and have to remain behind the Sunnah. hadith is not Sunnah. That is a descriptive of the life of the prophet and that may support the Sunnah. The Sunnah was already there before any book of Hadith.
 
 So I have cut - off all your post after the mention of the books again and again...
 
 I did not believe on the scholars, or their Kalimah. My Eiman rests on rationality and truth with love for all and hatred for none. If you have love for all then you are welcome.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 07 September 2008 at 1:27am

 

Quote

 salam, (From Najeeb)
for now, the hadith about inspiration is obviously a fabrication and the pre-islamic history of Umar and his history after the demise of the prophet will show that. no further comment. do your research. 

That means you are a specialist of the knowledge of Hadith. You have outright rejected the Hadith which a friend ( Hamza) presented here about Hazrat Umar. We will see. It appears to me that you have no real religious knowledge about Sunnah or hadith or Umar.


 

Quote   in your different responses, you have diverged from the topic of taraweeh and started talking about other things. u have still not proven me wrong. i will respond to your mains points.

 You should point out where I diverged. You were using Hadith. I discussed about the status of Ahadith to prove that you are wrong.

 

Quote as for taraweeh:

POINT1: i don't have a problem if the sunnis pray taraweeh. this is between themselves and Allah. however, i don't understand why they are doing it when all hadith and scholars understanding show that it was not the practice of the prophet, but an innovation of the companions, which umar perfected. i have used a legitimate way to prove my point. Now, please, u can either prove me wrong legitimately or accept my prove, and close the case.

  Thanks . You don't have problem about Sunnis praying Traveeh. But you think it is a sin. It is a disobedience.

Quote
POINT2: my friend, all scholars (shia'a and sunnis) have derived the Sunnah of the prophet from hadith. that is what abu hanifa, al-maliki, al-shafii and ahmad ibn handbal, & everyone did, except those who don't believe in hadith. the interpretation of the quran by each scholar is also based on these hadith, and unfortunately many have introduced their opinions as well! 

 That is wrong. I had told you that hadith is different to Sunnah. Hadith is to serve the Sunnah. It is not to take charge of the Quran and Sunnah. But you do not know what is Sunnah. How Sunnah can be derived from the Hadith. Sunnah was acting from the very first day. The Ahadith came on the scene after 200 years and not many people knew about them.

Sunnat, that is the practice of the prophet was seen and known by thousands of people all the time. Muslims were performing Hajj and prayers when there was no book of Hadith at all.

 

Quote therefore, what i believe and what i don't believe, is based on the quran and the hadith, from which (hadith) the sunnah is derived. it only logically follows that i have to use hadith to prove my point. no other way around it.

 You may believe on the Quran and your own Hadith. Even if you present any Hadith as that of Sunnis is no good. Books have been written and things added and subtracted by the Shias in the Sunni books. Nobody will trust you.

 

Quote POINT3:
hadith was not written 200 years after the demise of the prophet. in fact, there are many narrations which suggest the contrary. and of course, there are narrations that support your claim, and i consider them fabrications because the idea is illogical.

You do not know about the history of Hadith. You do not know that it was forbidden to write anything when Quran was being written.

Quote
Think about it logically: just like the quran was written upon revelation, the hadith was also getting written at the time of the prophet. writting is the best way to preserve both sources because people are prone to forgetting, which will ultimately result in unintentional or intentional alterations. there is no valid and logical reason for not allowing the writing of the hadith at the time of the prophet. the importance of the Sunnah warrants such preservation. do u think the companions will be able to remember the entire sharia'a? is this possible? do u remember everything u hear from your intructor at school in a 1 hour class? no u don't. u pick up some pieces but at the end, you rely on your book. 

Totally wrong. You are saying that hadith was being written when Quran was being written. Where have you been. If all hadith were already written then why did Imam Bukhari r.a. and Imam Muslim went place to place to collect the Ahadith from people? You are trying to mislead others with your wrong thinking. Nobody will buy what you are selling.

 

Quote
here are some narrations: 

I do not need your narrations. I have told you that they have no value. I am not ahle Hadith and I hope that you are also not ahle Hadith. So why you bring the Hadith again and again. Are you an ahle hadith? Please tell me. So I have cut-off all your narrations.

Quote
if all the narrations i have presented were just in the Shia'a books, then you may have the right to disprove them. but it is harder to disprove them when they are considered authentic by the shia'a and sunnis. 

 I do not care if they are from Shia books or Sunni books. They are not needed here.

 

Quote
i am going to make this my last contribution and move on because this is not going anywhere. i will just let u ponder on all of this and inchallah, the truth will become clear. just think about it, seriously. the bottom line is reaching conviction and mutual understanding, rather than condemnation!

[.quote]

I know you will be going away soon. I want you to stay on and discuss the matter about the status of the Quran and Sunnah and Hadith. What do you say? Sunnah is different from the Hadith. I wish that you try to understand the Sunnah and forget the Hadith for the time being. Sunnah is standing on its own legs. Not on the legs of the Hadith.

  [quote] salam 

   And salam to you too.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 07 September 2008 at 4:51am
Salaams

Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:


First asda:


as far as i can understand...u r trying to tell me in shugar-coated words that the sunnah are a set of costums set by the prophet, and hadith are his saying....and sunnah has more importance than hadith...cuz hadith was NEVER written at the time of Prophet (a.s)...... well this surly goes against some of the greatest books of sunni's... Was hadith ever written when the prophet (a.s) said them??? well this is how ure books answer them.


�Again your books and my books. it seems that you� have different books. Never mind.�


�You and I are in disagreement. I have explained to you that there were no books of Hadith in circulation and the religion was all well. The prayers and Hajj was going on without any Hadith. I have pointed out to the practice (doings) of the holy prophet to you. But you do not go near it. You ignore that completely. Some of those doings (practice of the prophet) was later written in the books of Hadith too. But that was long time after the demise of the prophet.


�You do not seem to acknowledge the role of the Sunnah. Perhaps you do not understand it or you ignore it or do not like it. Again you are taking the matter into some books of the Sunnis etc.


�I do not go into them as far as the various religious rites are concerned. You know that the books of Hadith were compiled about 100 to 200 years after the prophet. So they are late comers and have to remain behind the Sunnah. hadith is not Sunnah. That is a descriptive of the life of the prophet and that may support the Sunnah. The Sunnah was already there before any book of Hadith.


�So I have cut - off all your post after the mention of the books again and again...


�I did not believe on the scholars,�or their Kalimah. My Eiman rests on rationality and truth with love for all and hatred for none. If you have love for all then you are welcome.



sir....did u even read my post...and did u even try to understand it....or just because it disagrees with u..... u dint bother thinking about it....

i have PROVED it to u that HADITH BOOKS WERE WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF THE PROPHET....and u simply went over that...well thats odd..and u wrote this:

Quote there were no books of Hadith in circulation



pata nahee where do u take ure religion from.....


and i PROVED it to u THAT THE ACTIONS OF THE PROPHET WERE DISTORTED AND CHANGED...but u still ignored it because it does not agree with ure views.....please dont be stubborn...


i am not lovering the importance of sunnah...i am trying to say is that QURAN...SUNNAH...HADITH....ALL OF THEM HAVE THE SAME VALUE....because


Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired". (An-Najm 3,4)


"Obey Allah and obey the messenger" (An Nissa�: 59)



i am having a feeling that u r doing ure best to avoid hadith....but y is it....

and comming bak to taraweeh.....how do u think the taraweeh, which u think its the sunnah of the prophet (a.s)....was transmitted till today...and u pray it the same way as the prophet did??

Quote My Eiman rests on rationality and truth with love for all and hatred for none. If you have love for all then you are welcome.


how can i love all blindly...how can i follow the ppl who hurt the prophet (a.s)'s doughter...and just close my eyes....like u...and follow wat i like and reject wat i like...

is ure faith according to what allah (s.w.t) likes....or wat u hav made up in ure mind??

khz


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 08 September 2008 at 4:33am
 
  asda, It had been shown to you that Muslims were praying in mosque during the time of the prophet and he himself prayed for three nights in Ramadhan. Then after the prophet died, the Muslims were praying in the mosque during Ramadhan at night. They were doing it in the Time of Hazrat Abubakr Siddique, the first Imam of the Ummah.
 
 Then it is known that Momineen were praying in the mosque individually at night during the month of Ramadhan and reciting the Quran on their own, in large numbers without an Imam.
 
 Hazrat Umar r.a. the secnd Imam of the Ummah did not go to the momineen to call them to come and pray in the mosque at night. They were already doing it individually. Whatever was the name of that practice, Hazrat Umar did not tell them to do it.
 
 Now asda tell me what you will call that prayer?  Whatever is the name of that prayer or practice, the momineen were doing it without any one telling them.  And that practice was going on in the mosque already daily at night in the month of ramadhan. Hazar Umar did not tell them to do that. He did not call any one to the mosque.
 
In that time, Hazrat Umar only suggested that they may do it in congregation, i.e. collectively under one Imam who will recite the Quran for every one to listen. It also means that there was a Quran in those days available at least to some peopel who had memorised it.
 
 Now asda tell me what was wrong with that? Hazrat Umar was the qualified elected leader (Imam). He only suggested that the prayer at night may be collective. There is no harm in that. And there can be many Jama'at in the same mosque under different Imams. The purpose to listen to the Quran.
 
 It is a sort of non-obligatory Sunnat which is equal to nawafil (extras). If any one wants to do that let him do it. If some one does not like, let him keep away. Why are you specially trying to prove that it is wrong? Or it is some kind of sin? And you are using your Hadith for that.
I have told you that Hadith cannot over-ride it. It is some kind of Sunnat which is continued in the Ummah from the time before Hazrat Umar r.a. (FROM THE TIME BEFORE, NOTE IT PLEASE.) Hazrat Umar only modified the practice. He did not start or stop it.
 
 Tell me where will you go now? Are you with the multitude of the Ummah listening to the Quran in the month of Ramadhan or you want to stop such practice or you want to lie at home and go for your own prayers at home. There is nobody to stop you. But you seem to be anxious to stop a practice which the people were doing and liked to do in the life of the prophet. s.a.w.s.
 
 The prophet himself did it for three days and continued to do it later without congregation. The Ahadith have been over worked and specially designed to downplay the Traveeh, even  Hazrat Umar calling it a Bida'at. That is false. There is no need to go to such depth unless a Shia may do it.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 08 September 2008 at 1:11pm
what makes u say that this hadeeth has been worked on and not in its orignal form??? is their any logical proof of ure claim???


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 08 September 2008 at 10:07pm
 
  It is from the matter that the Hadith is judged first, the material. Then the Rawayat is seen.
 
 There are other Hadith too which show that peole were praying in the mosque at night during the month of Ramadhan during the life of the prophet. The prophet also did it for three nights.
 
 If the prophet did anything even for One day then it could become a Sunnat.
 
 1.  The people were praying in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Abubakr. If the prophet had forbidden the people then why they were doing it? Something wrong?
 
 2. Why they kept on doing it?
 
 3. The People were praying extra during the month of Ramadhan at night in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Umar too. Why they were doing it?
 
 4. Did Hazrat Umar r.a. call them and told them to do the prayer in the mosque?
 
 You please note all my questions and give reply to each question. Then I will give you the position of those Hadith.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 5:47am
on ure earlier post...
well i hav nothing against taraweeh...its just that the sunnis accuse us of not following the sunnah of the prophet (a.s)....and its just to prove that taraveeh is not his sunnah...infact the prayers mentioned in those hadith are tahajjud prayer...

Quote 1. The people were praying in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Abubakr. If the prophet had forbidden the people then why they were doing it? Something wrong?


the Prophet (a.s) had forbidden the ppl from praying that prayer in congregation...as one can see..and not as whole..:


Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Allah's Apostle made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). Allah's Apostle came out (of his house) and prayed in it. Some men came and joined him in his prayer. Then again the next night they came for the prayer, but Allah's Apostle delayed and did not come out to them. So they raised their voices and knocked the door with small stones (to draw his attention). He came out to them in a state of ANGER, saying, "You are still insisting (on your deed,) that I thought that this prayer might become obligatory on you. So you people, offer this prayer (i.e. Tahajjud or the so called Tarawih) at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 134

Quote 2. Why they kept on doing it?


And during a part of the night, engage in the night prayer (Tahajjud) beyond what is incumbent on you; perhaps your Lord will raise you to a position of great glory. (17:79)


Quote 3. The People were praying extra during the month of Ramadhan at night in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Umar too. Why they were doing it?


nawaafil prayers has no limits...

Quote 4. Did Hazrat Umar r.a. call them and told them to do the prayer in the mosque?


nope...but as it was ramadan...ppl usually pray at mosque...but the tahajjud shud be prayed at the middle of the night...which is done better at home...rest all prayers are surly better at mosque..



now like a gud boy i hav answerd those question ;-)...now there r soo many questions above...please answer them...


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 8:49pm
 
  Pl. see my questions again and reply properly.
 
 1.  The people were praying in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Abubakr. If the prophet had forbidden the people then why they were doing it? Something wrong? Were they ignorant or disobedient?
 
 2. Why they kept on doing it?
 
 3. The People were praying extra during the month of Ramadhan at night in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Umar too. Why they were doing it?
 
 4. Did Hazrat Umar r.a. call them from their home and told them to do the prayer in the mosque?
 
 You have not tried to give replies. Give yes or no. And tell me whu people were doing what they were doing individually. Do not give me any verse of the Quran  or hadith. Because that is not called for in my questions.
 
 In fact you have admitted that you were doing all this because the Sunnis were accusing you of not going for Traveeh. That is not correct. I did not accuse you and I have not seen any one accusing the Shias for that. They can pray at home. But the thread here is started by some Shia and he/she was trying to prove that the Traveeh was sin. It was against the teachings of the prophet.
 But now you are saying that it was all because the Sunnis accused you. That is not the case. You had come fully equiped to demolish the practice of the Traveeh. But you have failed miserably.
 
 I have no problem with your mode of prayer. The Shias do many bad things. I did not pick any querrel with them. But najeeb had full gear to prove that the Traveeh prayer was a sin.
 
 asda, I ask you again. Please read the four questions above and reply in a decent manner to the point being asked. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 11 September 2008 at 4:59am
Quote You have not tried to give replies. Give yes or no. And tell me whu people were doing what they were doing individually. Do not give me any verse of the Quran or hadith. Because that is not called for in my questions.


well now u r again denying it without any reasoning....if u hav problems with my answers then point them out individually...

they were surly praying nawaafil, or any other recomended prayers, or they were offering one of the waajib salaah, or reciting kazaa numaaz......man how do i knw....its just that everyone knows they were praying....wat they were praying, is something a man himself knows...and its there in his niyyah....he does not need to have a big board around him saying i am praying such and such prayer....i ask u...u see a person praying at mosque..how do u knw wat prayer he was praying???


Quote In fact you have admitted that you were doing all this because the Sunnis were accusing you of not going for Traveeh. That is not correct. I did not accuse you and I have not seen any one accusing the Shias for that. They can pray at home. But the thread here is started by some Shia and he/she was trying to prove that the Traveeh was sin. It was against the teachings of the prophet.[/A In fact you have admitted that you were doing all this because the Sunnis were accusing you of not going for Traveeh. That is not correct. I did not accuse you and I have not seen any one accusing the Shias for that. They can pray at home. But the thread here is started by some Shia and he/she was trying to prove that the Traveeh was sin. It was against the teachings of the prophet.


well i dont knw the views of the topic starter....but the only reason i entered this debate was because u all accuse us of having imam Ali (a.s) before Prophet Muhammad (a.s)....and by not praying taraveeh u all accuse us of the same thing...

infact how can taraveeh be a sin!!!!how can reciting Quran be a sin???? well its just that the form of prayer dint exist till the time of ure second caliph......but thawaab of reciting quran, in a gud and beutiful voice cannot be denied....
well i just read the 1st post on this thread....and the starter of this topic does not mean as u say....hes no way proving it a sin.....

Quote I have no problem with your mode of prayer. The Shias do many bad things. I did not pick any querrel with them. But najeeb had full gear to prove that the Traveeh prayer was a sin.


baseless argument....because sunnis do accuse shias of loads of things they dont do....
bad things??...y do u have sunnis accusing shias of a belief of Quran being revealed to Imam Ali (a.s) (maazallah).....well if u dont wanna debate..then no ones forcing u....well its just that we should treat each other with respect...thats it......if there are differences..then lets discuss this out in a humanly manner...and try to understand each other...

well if u hav problems with any of the practice of the shia that u can open a thread and we can discuss that...inshallah differences will be sorted out...


Quote asda, I ask you again. Please read the four questions above and reply in a decent manner to the point being asked. Thanks.


i have done that...if u dont like hadith then its not my fault...ure second question was answered in the 1st one itself....the quranic verse was added just to strenthen my case...if u dont like the Quranic Aayah...then again its not my fault...


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 13 September 2008 at 11:59am
 
  ( For asda. My previous questions in black. My latest remarks in blue)

1. The people were praying in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Abubakr. If the prophet had forbidden the people then why they were doing it? Something wrong?

You have not given any good reason why people were praying in the mosque during Ramadhan nights in large numbers. If the prophet hd told them not do such thing then do you think they were disobedient people? You have not given any good reason. You say "may be they were doing Nawafil, may be they were doing tahjjud.. But it is sure that the people were praying in the mosque in large numbers during Ramadhan. So it shows that the prophet had not forbidden them to do so. If he had forbidden something then they would not do it.

The prophet only acted in such a way that it may not become compulsory for them. That is all. It proves that peopel in large numbers were seen praying in the mosque individually.

2. Why they kept on doing it?

There is real reply from you except that they were praying Nawafil etc. But you know and you admit that they were there at night in Ramadhan in large numbers performing prayers individually, of some kind.

3. The People were praying extra during the month of Ramadhan at night in the mosque during the time of Hazrat Umar too. Why they were doing it?

It is established that people in large numbers were praying in the mosque during Ramadhan individually, even during the period of the 2nd Imam al Ummah, Hazrat Umar r.a. So it was a practice coming from the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. And they were prayer mongers and not any false or bad or disobedient people. They were the companions of the prophet s.a.w.s. It was a continous practice during every month of Ramadhan for many years.

4. Did Hazrat Umar r.a. call them and told them to do the prayer in the mosque?

You have admitted that Hazrat Umar r.a. did not call any one from their home to gathert in the mosque and perform the Salat collectively. They were used to be there already and he only suggested that the prayer could be offered collectively with some Hafiz or Qari reciting the Quran and others listening to it.

That was his suggestion which was adopted by the people and the practice has been continued till this day. Some people (Sunnis) perform 20 Raka'at and some others (ahle Hadith) perform only 8 Raka'at prayers. But they do. And only Shias do not do it. that is their own business. They do what they like. But why are Shias so anxious to prove that the practice of the Sunnis and Ahle Hadith is wrong?

You and najeeb both try to use Hadith to disprove the Traveeh prayers by using Hadith. Are you more expert in the matters of Hadith than the ahle Hadith people? Not at all. And here we do not even need any Hadith. It is a continous practice which is non broken. It over rides any Hadith. It does not need any Hadith to support it.

So it proves that you both entered this field with lack of knowledge. Now the whole thing has been explained to you. I hope you will understand and not raise any objection to the Traveeh prayers.

The month of Ramadhan has extra care for the Quran and the Quran is recited in various ways during the Traveeh prayers. So there is no mistake. It is all a service to the Quran. Then trying to raise a question that it is a Sunnat or not, that is unnecessary. It may not be a compulsory Sunnah. Yet it is great and a great guidance by the great leader (Imam) of the Ummah hazrat Umar r.a. May Allah bless his soul. Amen.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 13 September 2008 at 2:01pm
ure reply has few unproven points:

1-where has the hadith said that the Prophet (a.s) had disallowed to pray in mosque in Ramazan completely???....while the hadith clearly mentions about the prticular salah which has been not allowed in congregation....
2-u hav just generalised it and assumed the fact that everyone in the mosque (when umer entered) were praying taraweeh....well does a person while praying taraweeh look different...no right!!! then how did u make that assumption???

Quote The prophet only acted in such a way that it may not become compulsory for them. That is all. It proves that peopel in large numbers were seen praying in the mosque individually.


are all the aacts of the prophet (a.s) are to be considered sunnah (except waajib ones) for the ummah and it is recomended to do them???



Quote So it proves that you both entered this field with lack of knowledge. Now the whole thing has been explained to you.

ure explaination has loads of baseless assumptions.....only if i assume something, then only its correct....if i assume it to be othervise...then...obviosly it gives a diff meaning.....

the acts of islam are not based on assumptions..
atleast u have accepted the fact that the prophet (a.s) dint like that prayer to be read in congregation...whatever the reason was...


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 14 September 2008 at 12:33am
 
  There is no such thing. Whether he (prophet) did not like it to be performed collectively, he did not say anything against it. He did not do it more than three nights.
 
 The people were not misled. If they were praying in Ramadhan at night individually, each one on his own, that is also proved. So the problem now boils down to the practice of the praying being made colletive. That is all.
 
 It is clear from your above post that the problem is now about why it was made collective. I admit that it was done by some one, any one. Now we are to work out whether it was a bad lesson or it was a good lesson.
 
 Please remember that the single style prayer in the mosque in Ramadhan has no doubt. The doubt or your objection now rests on the collective form of the prayer as it is being observed nowadays. I hope I am right. We will let you know the reality of such a form of prayer soon. You have objection to the collective form of prayer in the mosque in Ramdhan. If people do ot pray collectively then they can pray on their own (individually) in the Mosque or other big place as much as they like.
 
 Your objection is only that why they are praying behind one Imam collectively. The Imam reciting the Quran to the Jama'at and the Jama'at is listening to the Quran behind him. Your objection is to that form of prayer. Or is there some more problem?


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 14 September 2008 at 4:57am
Quote He did not do it more than three nights.

and so he stopped praying it..inst it..

the single style prayer was not taraweeh.....its just that a new innovation was created...and then it was named taraweeh.....

well if the single style prayer was called taraweeh, was the mention of taraweeh ever done during the time of the prophet(a.s)??....i mean if such a prayer did exist..then there shud be mention of it....i mean someone cud hav clearly asked the prophet (a.s) to pray 8 or 20 rakahs??


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 September 2008 at 11:06am
 
 Did you admit that people were praying individually in the mosque at night in Ramadhan? Yes or NO? i.e. in the time of Hazrat Umar r.a. ? That will help. Please tell.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 15 September 2008 at 12:42pm
what has this question gotta do with the sunnah of the prophet(a.s)??

ok ya...ppl must be praying surly..


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 September 2008 at 4:46pm
 
  Okay, thank you very much. I wanted to know your opinion on simple things. That is good. If we agree in the very basic simple things then there can be further discussion.
 
 You have agreed that people were praying in mosque individually during the time of second Imam hazrat Umar r.a.  Thank you.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:33am
 
  The second Imam of the Ummah, hazrat Umar a.s. saw that people were praying individually in the mosque in large numbers at night in the Month of Ramadhan. They were reciting the Quran. He advised them to do it in congregation (collectively) instead of each one praying on his own. And yet there could be many small groups in prayers. The Traveeh is not any strictly proper obligatory prayer. Then there is no need to say anything against it too.
 
 Many people did not know the Quran very well. They did not memorise the Quran. So hazrat sahib advised that one person should recite the Quran and the others should listen patiently. The followers (Muqtadeyeen) being Arabs could understand what was being said. So it was useful.
 The practice has continued till this day. It was a very wise step to promote the knowledge about Quran.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 6:13am
jazakallah....that fits ure mind and my mind as well..

so where is taraveeh here, b4 umar made it...
if islam's rules change towards what is the needs of the people, then.....islam would not have existed today....

just because ppl had not memorized the quran, its not a gud reason to invent a new prayer...


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 2:01pm
 
 I am also happy that you have agreed to the nature of the problem which has now boiled down to a small thing. That something was being done already and some one directed the matter and changed the style of the prayer. He did not order any one to pray to him. The prayer was to Allah facing Ka'abah.
 
 But where is your bundle of Ahadith by which you were both maligning and piling up sin upon hazart Umar. Hazrat Umar was the rightly guided Caliph and Ameer ul Momineen. He could easily order things about prayer. Don't the Shias follow the way of their Imams? There is no harm in that. It is perfectly alright. It is not an obligatory prayer. It is another sort of Nawafil.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 12:20am
surly the shias follow thir imams....but the Imams dont invent anything...what has been said by Prophet Muhammad (a.s), the last Imam (a.s) will say the same....there is no difference in preaching...and no new inventions....

and according to those hadith, a new prayer was invented...and that has also been accepted by u(in sugar coated words).....therefore it is conclusive that taraveeh has no existance during the time of the prophet (a.s)...


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 3:37pm
 
  asda, I had given you good reasons to understand that the prayer was already there, whatever its name and you cannot deny that. It was in practice. I told you and you agreed that Hazrat Umar did not call people from home to gather in the mosque for the prayers. It was already in practice. He only changed the style of the prayer and that is not such a sin to take it up seriously against a great leader (Imam)  of the Ummah.
 
 So you can see your mistake in getting too much involved in this topic. What if the present mode of prayers called Traveeh was not there in the time of the prophet. It makes no difference. You may call it an invention. I ask you. Are you not inventing things into Shiaism? Where was any kinds of mourning in the time of the prophet s.a.w.s.?? The way you are all doing nowadays?? That you are all observing as a sacred duty every year??  Is it not all invented. And the practice of the horse and wailing and crying in the streets of the cities. I believe that is a great sin because that is not a prayer too and as such not necessary.
 
 But You will give more importance to that ritual of yours while you will downplay another practice of the pure prayer of the Sunnis? How that is possible? How could that be allowed and admitted as a sacred mission and all your attack is on Traveeh only. You know that you have no justified ground to stand upon  in this matter as a Shia.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 8:06pm

Salaams,

This is like a ping-pong match..
 
I am not sure about how any thing can help solve the problems we are facing as Muslims. Sometimes it makes me sad.
 
And life goes on.. 


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 20 September 2008 at 6:06am
Wa'alaikumassalam sister Hayfa...

i agree with u that the debates are being streched for no reason...the important points in the 2 debates have been looked upon....and just to prolong it further, the brothers have done their best to change the topic of the orignal discussion..

well alhamd br.minuteman has stopped making rash remarks, tho br.seeks still havent managed to control his emotions...i have already pointed out to him....if seeks stop making comments like "shias are jahil,ignorant,blind etc etc" and stop changing the topic and avoid making worthless questions just to prolong the debate, inshallah u will see the fruits....i have already said, lets understand each other....and i wud like to thank br.minuteman for cooperating to an extent..

to br minuteman,
inshallah i will soon reply u, since u must know that we r bz with our majaalis and ebadaat as the big nights have started...

I pray to Allah (s.w.t) that all jaa'iz hajaat of u all be accepted and may Allah (s.w.t) give u the oppertunity for as much ebaadaat as possible in the nights of Laylatul Qadr....


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 20 September 2008 at 4:03pm
 
  asda, Have a good time, pray to Allah and ask His help. I wish you well and request you to work with Love for All and Hatred for none. Then we will meet, Insha Allah when you have free time.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 6:59am
br minuteman; 1st of all our mourning practices are niether a kind of ritual....nor an invention....infact it is the sunnah of Rasulullah to mourn the death of a "Mohsin e Islam"(ppl who served Islam)....history is eveident of the fact that Rasullullah mourned more than 3 days for Hazrat Hamza, Hazrat Abu Talib and Bibi Khadija.....and i dont think i need to give u qotes for this...infact Rasulullah never stoped ppl from mourning them.....
wat i am trying to say is that the Prophet (a.s) had stopped people from praying that Prayer in congregation...and i have given sufficient proof for it...ok..lets leave it since u have been really rigid in it...and let the readers decide on there own...

mourning for not more than 3 days is not recomended (makrooh) for a normal person.....but if someone still feel like crying, there is no haraam in it....cuz it is all natural.....

it seems that both of u do have a very big problem with our Mourning and Showing of love for Ahle Bayt (a.s)...and the Prophet (a.s) as i have said, did not stop people from mourning the death of people who served greatly from Islam....in ure case the Prophet (a.s) had stopped ppl to perform in congregation....

well i have tried to remain passive on ure crticism to our mourning styles...infact we can prove it from quran...

infact its a common fact that self-flaggation is a way to release extreme emotions....and we can see the pious lady Hazrat Hajirah, the great Grandmother of the Prophet (a.s) in the following aayah:
"Then came forward his wife in grief, she smote her face and said (what! I) An old barren woman?"
Quran 51:29



we can see this action performed by the Prophets (a.s) wen in grief..

Tafseer Kabeer Volume 5 page 158:

"On one occasion Gibrael approached Prophet Yusuf (as) in Zundh and conveyed the news that his father had become blind on account of his weeping for him. Yusuf hit his hand on his head and said \'O I wish my mother did not give birth to me, so that I would have not become the cause of such sadness to my father\'



not only dat; the 2nd rashidite khalifa had once done this:

Kanz al Ummal, Vol.8, Page 117, Kitab al Maut

When Hadhrath Omar heard of Nu'man ibn Muqrin's death he beat his head and screamed, "O what a pity that Nu'man died"




to add to that, Aisha had said:

"Rasulullah (s) died while he was in my lap. Then I laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my face along with other women".
Bidayah wa al Nihayah, Volume 5, page 420


therefore we can see clearly in my post that;
1) mourning for more than 3 days was performed for The People Who Served Islam.
2) The act of self-flaggation is a part of mourning as it comes out naturally...


therefore the mourning for ashura is not an invention; but it is something which can be seen in sufficient examples to be allowed and not a sin as u say....hopefully this has cleared ure mind...



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