Ishmael and Isaac
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Topic: Ishmael and Isaac
Posted By: believer
Subject: Ishmael and Isaac
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 7:08pm
Genesis 21The Birth of Isaac1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah bore him. 4 When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him, as God commanded him. 5 Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.6 Sarah said, "God has brought me laughter, and everyone who hears about this will laugh with me." 7 And she added, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? Yet I have borne him a son in his old age." Hagar and Ishmael Sent Away8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring." 14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba. 15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went off and sat down nearby, about a bowshot away, for she thought, "I cannot watch the boy die." And as she sat there nearby, she began to sob. 17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation." 19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. 20 God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. Genesis 22Abraham Tested 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" 2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." 3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you." 6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?" 8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together. 9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!" 12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." 13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided." 15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Replies:
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 10:40am
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Believer, above post was moved from http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=73 - Prophets - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses section. ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 3:18pm
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And yet, Isaac was not Abrahim's only son. And Sarah, whom God had favored by giving her Isaac, returned the favor by selfishly demanding that Hagar and Abraham's OTHER son be sent into the desert, presumably to die, because she did not want to share Isaac's inheritance.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 4:00pm
Hi believer, I don't see a question you pose rather a long post from my standards, could you please tell us what is your question, so we can aswer it. Thakns, Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
believer wrote:Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:41pm
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Shasta' Aunt - violation of a heaven appointed institution causes sorrow and strife. I do not condone her actions, any modern woman might act exactly the same way. Genesis 21 11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring." honeto- I can understand how the descendants of Ishmael might feel "left out". Why wasn't it Ishmaels GOD too? Exodus 3
13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" 14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " 15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, [b] the God of your fathers�the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob�has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation. 16 "Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers�the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob�appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 6:35pm
Are you insinuating that the descendants of Ishmael created a religion because they felt left out, or that God is not the God of all mankind? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 6:47pm
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Hi, here is the bottom line of Abraham and his two sons Ishmael and Isaac, who was first and who really was his only son at the time he offered to God's call. You be the judge. According to the Bible here is the order: Those who think that Hagar was not Abraham's wife, here is the answer: Genesis 16:3Then Sarai, Abram�s wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan. That clearly shows that Hagar was Abraham's wife. Now we need to see who was born first and who bore it regrdless where on earth they lived. Genesis 16:16 Abraham was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abraham. Genesis 21:5 Now Abraham was one hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. Let us stop here and do some simple maths, 100-86=14 that is the age of Ishmael when Isaac was born. Genesis 22:5 Abraham said to his young (his helpers that went with him) men, �Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.� Now remember here the word "lad" for Abraham's son, who was a young boy then. So far we see that Ishmael is the first son, and if any say to him take your only son, it will 100% mean Ishmael only before the birth of Isaac. Now something is wrong with this verse: Genesis 22:2 Then He (God)said, �Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.� In my opinion someone did not fix it right. Because by the time Abraham had Isaac, he already had Ishmael. So Isaac cannot be refered as "the only son" Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 7:20pm
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believer Senior Member  What is the point you are trying to make before some body gives you piece of his her mind in a nasty way! You copied and pasted a passage from OT that is called spamming! If you read between the lines what you are saying that God of Jews and Christian is a racist against the Egyptians! I have my theory about this but you need to be explicit about the thread first! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 7:56pm
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Shasta'saunt - no not at all. I have my theories about Mohammad but that is not one of them. sign*reader - you mustn't read between the lines. GOD promises Ishmael to be the father of a great nation. I didn't realize that this was considered spamming. I am getting to it, I wanted to set up the story. Genesis 1717 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!" 19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him. What covenants did Allah make with Muslims/Mohammad? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 8:17pm
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What was the conenant that God Almighty establish with Isaac? ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:12pm
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LOL!! I guess I'm not done setting up the story!!! LOL!! ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:17pm
Genesis 26Isaac and Abimelech1 Now there was a famine in the land�besides the earlier famine of Abraham's time�and Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines in Gerar. 2 The LORD appeared to Isaac and said, "Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live. 3 Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham. 4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, 5 because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws." 6 So Isaac stayed in Gerar.------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 12:13am
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 1:36pm
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What covenants did Allah make with Muslims/Mohammad? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 1:44pm
All of God's covenants were made with Muslims. A Muslim is "One who submits to the Will of God". ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 5:02pm
Hi bleiever, I don't think that decendents of Ishmael feel left out, I never heard of that. If you read my post (just a few posts up) you will see another prove of Bible contradictions, why would I take anything serious about it, if I don't want to bet a dollar over its credibility let alone my house or my car or my herafter, in all honesty. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 8:48pm
honeto - Hagar and Ishmael were sent away then:Genesis 22Abraham Tested1 Some time later God tested Abraham
I'm glad no one feels left out. What covenants were made between Allah and Mohammad, Allah and the Muslims of Mohammad's time? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 8:31am
Sent away to the richest land in the whole world! You know I heard a Jew saying that Moses made wrong turn, he was suppsed to go right not left. Now you tell me what he meant  ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 1:34pm
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"What covenants were made between Allah and Mohammad, Allah and the Muslims of Mohammad's time?" What covenants were made with God and the Christians of Jesus' time? Other than Saul breaking all of the old covenants: eating pork, circumcision, etc... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 12:09pm
Believer, I don't know what you mean by this:"honeto - Hagar and Ishmael were sent away then:"Are you trying to say, they no longer were his wife and son, if they moved away, I know people move away from families all the time without calling off their blood relations? What point are you making??
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 6:50am
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"What covenants were made between Allah and Mohammad, Allah and the Muslims of Mohammad's time?"
LOL!! "Sent away to the richest land in the whole world!"
Is this recorded in the Quran? Please point out the story?
Shast'sAunt- eternal salvation!!
The bold button is not always working, or am I doing somehting wrong? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 3:13pm
It doesn't have to be written in the Quran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, Iran, large oil reserves, ring a bell?
Ah, eternal salvation, but all of the Abrahamic religions believe this.... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 12:22pm
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I was asking specifically about covenants in the Quran. I am correct in saying there are NO covenants recorded in the Quran between Allah and Mohammad. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 4:21pm
And I answered you. Eternal life in Paradise.
The entire Quran is a covenant between God and all of mankind, not just the Prophet Mohamed. If you believe in the One True God and follow His Word sent to us in the Holy Quran, then you will be rewarded according to your deeds. That is God's covenant sent in the Quran. That is God's Word.
I'm sorry, what was God's specific covenant with Jesus? Or since God and Jesus are one, could they have a covenant? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:08pm
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Oh ok. I was thinking along the lines of here on earth. LOL!! Remember Jesus is GOD
OK, I correct my statement, no new covenants, is that correct? Just the rules changed? A new set of rules for those that want to follow something other than the Jewish Law or Jesus.
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:33pm
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believer writes,
"A new set of rules for those that want to follow something other than the Jewish Law or Jesus."
sorry, you are wrong again, the correct answer is that to redirect those who altered and strayed from the previous guidance sent to Jesus and prophets (pbut) before him, so we can achieve eternal salvation.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 7:16am
Because the Jews and the christians had lost the true guidance given to them. They purposely altered the words in their scripture and tried to tell every one that it was from God but it was not. Due to making alteration in their sacred books, their books had become useless. So new message was needed.
Also, it was all linked to Abraham who was the fore father of the Jews and the Arabs. He had two sons Ishmael (the first born) and Issac who was 14 years younger to Ishmael. They both inherited spiritual as well as material inheritance from their father, in far, different areas.
The Jews and Christians had somehow got bent on dis-inheriting the first born son of Abraham. That was bad. It was told to Abraham that Ishmael will also be blessed. But the Jews and Christians tried to take away that blessing. There was no need to do that. Niether Abraham nor Sarah was bad. The story that Sarah did not like Ishmael or hagar is all false story to dis-inherit Ishmael and his progeny.
So please tell us, it was necessary to correct that big mistake or not? Abraham had prayed a lot for Ishmael and his off springs. He loved his first born son Ishmael, of old age. For a very long time, Ishmael was the only son of Abraham. Issac was never the only son of Abraham. Please see the things on these lines and you may understand better. Peace. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:48pm
Actually Muslims are not the ones who changed all of God's original covenents with the Jews. Ponder that the next time your eating a ham sandwich or when it's time to get your son circumcised. Or you are worshipping Jesus as the Lord God.
And if I remember my NT correctly, Jesus didn't change the covenents either, it was Paul/Saul who was responsible for most of that. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:06pm
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Where does Paul change covenants?
Yes Jesus is GOD He would not change the rules, He fulfilled the rules. The gentiles are brought into the covenant through Jesus. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:13pm
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minuteman- no remember Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel. Bible more valueable today then ever before.
Not sure what you mean by:
They both inherited spiritual as well as material inheritance from their father, in far, different areas.
LOL!! Does the quran mention this:
The Jews and Christians had somehow got bent on dis-inheriting the first born son of Abraham.
What do you believe the blessing to be?
It was told to Abraham that Ishmael will also be blessed.
Why were they sent away?
The story that Sarah did not like Ishmael or hagar is all false story to dis-inherit Ishmael and his progeny. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 12:04pm
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hi beleiver,
it seems useless to discuss anything about why were they Ishmael and Hagar were sent away when me must solve the bigger problem with that part of the book, the contradiction about who was the the first son of Abraham, and who was second and third?? Only the first son at time (until the birth of the second) can be refered to as the "only son".
Without clearing that fact, why do we take up anything else.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 11:52pm
Note 1. I need not inform you about the spiritual inheritance of Issac and Ishmael. You know better. Ishmael was the only son of Abraham for many years and no hope for any more son. he even had shown surprise that he will get another son from sarah. He had no hope. So all his prayers for blessings were for his only son Ishmael for long time. That should be easy for your to understand about the spiritual blessings.
Now about the material blessings, please note that he settled both his sons far away apart from each other. i.e. One in palestine and one in Hijaz (Arabia). For blessing please see genesis chapter 17 below:
19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. [ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&version=31#fen-NIV-417d - d ] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.
Note 2. I am not worried about whether the Quran mentions or not about disinheriting Ishmael. It is very much in the bible and in the behaviour of the people of the book. No doubt about it. You do not read your own books. I am sure that Sarah had asked Abraham that Ishmael will not inherit with her son Issac. That is in your bible. (It is not true at all).
note 3: Nature of blessing has been explained to you above.
Note 4: Why were they sent away? That is a good question. It was not due to the request of sarah. It was under the divine plan that Abraham took his only son Ishmael in a very young age to the area near makkah (Arabia).
If we do not believe that it was under divine plan then we have to believe that Abraham was a very wise man. he settled his sons at far distance. He was aware of the kings and soldiers attitude from Iraq where he was arrested by the order of the king.
He setteled his first born son in the wilderness of Arabia where no kings will be interested. Unlike, the children of Issac who had to serve the Egyptians as slave boys and slave girls for many years, the children of Ishmael had not to do any such thing in Arabia.
Then in the end days, the children of Issac had to suffer much under the Roman king and Jesus had to be arrested and put on the cross. That was very bad, all due to the Roman king and his soldiers. Nothing of that kind happened to our holy prophet Muhammad in Arabia. He had to face much trouble from his own countrymen (citymen). But nothing from any king and kings forces. So he was successful in routing the enemies of mankind.
Before the world knew anything, Islam was well established, Al hamdu Lillah. I have nothing against Abraham or sarah or issac or Jesus. They were all beloved of God. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 10:47am
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no honeto- this is just an example of a covenant. My question is about convenants written in the Quran. Which verses talk about covenants?
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 3:17pm
beleiver,
with all respect, I see that the topic you started does not have anything to do what you are asking now. It says: " Ismael and Isaac". You did not posed any question, instead a page of quotes. Now after pages of discussion you say you want to know about covenants in the Quran.
I will suggest you start a new topic on that and ask your question there.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 4:26pm
OK Mr. let me add couple of more cents here! B4 I show you the real covenants from quraan see what is defined as covenant cuz this is extremely legal issue you have started the thread on! cov�e�nant �noun
Just like I quit my business and told the Secretary of State who canceled my certificate to conduct any of future transactions or if I do any I will be subject to indictment. So son of Mary was the last call before the cancellation of the that certification and agreement. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? Is that clear? you being a Christian couldn't argue on this point! If their covenant is still valid your religion becomes invalid cuz The Jews don't accept Jesus in any shape or form........... So now the Jews without a covenant go into diaspora and to their schemes to control their surroundings through people psychology and money lending and everything in between! Allah had a parallel covenant with Ishmael as a back up cuz Allah knew how far the Israelites will hold their side of the covenants. The covenants were related to the holding the laws and limits of righteous conduct whereas the Jews went the opposite direction and broke each and every law that was sacrosanct and convinced others to do the same cuz there is more money in breaking the laws than not! They are leaders in gambling, porn and money manipulations industries worldwide. And they are still waiting for their Messiah  That should should tell you some thingNow here are the sample covenants for Ishmael in Quraan and quite a few others you can read on your own if you can't find then come back will be more than glad to share some! Al-Baqara (The Cow) 2:125 Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer). Al-Hadid (Iron)57:8 What cause have ye why ye should not believe in Allah.- and the Messenger invites you to believe in your Lord, and has indeed taken your covenant, if ye are men of Faith. Finally the Jews are running all over the world for material gains while the Ishmaelites have had times of their lives since then if you know what I mean. Since the Holy Prophet's time it even got grander! hope I don't need to go into the history lecture! Yes the Muslims/Ishmaelite got fat dumb and happy and paid the price and still paying some but the Quraan is still there and the covenant is still intact and the doors to repentance are wide open! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
) Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 4:47am
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Whew! Thank you for the verse- 057.008
YUSUFALI: What cause have ye why ye should not believe in Allah?- and the Messenger invites you to believe in your Lord, and has indeed taken your Covenant, if ye are men of Faith. PICKTHAL: What aileth you that ye believe not in Allah, when the messenger calleth you to believe in your Lord, and He hath already made a covenant with you, if ye are believers? SHAKIR: And what reason have you that you should not believe in Allah? And the Messenger calls on you that you may believe in your Lord, and indeed He has made a covenant with you if you are believers. OK, GOD made a covenant with Israelites, some followed the covenant some did not- so along comes another new covenant with Israelites and Gentiles - some follow some do not-so along comes another covenant [or does it go back ti the original with Abraham] to include Muslimis? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 10:29am
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02:125, YUSUFALI: Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
Believer, this verse is about Abraham and Ishmael when they had built a house of worship in Arabia (Now Makkah). That was before the birth of Issac. Allah told them to sanctify the house (Ka'abah) for those who vist it and go around it and use it as a place of worship of the One God... Please see that the place is still there. It is the oldest house of worship in the world.
It was built for the worship of One God only. But later the people (children of Ishmael) became polytheists. Even as polytheists they observed various rituals and observed the place as sacred place.
They remained so for many centuries, until Muhammad came with message from Allah. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 25 April 2008 at 11:02am
Covenant with gentiles  now that is called strechingNo covenant with gentiles- how could it be with gentiles? Then the gay priests with AIDS will ask for one and so will the pedophile priests will do the same! Is this a joke or what? ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 3:30pm
Romans 11Ingrafted Branches11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 4:51pm
Romans 11The Remnant of Israel1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah�how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=31#fen-NIV-28198a - a ]? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=31#fen-NIV-28199b - b ] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=31#fen-NIV-28201c - c ] 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written: ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 4:39am
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Sad the remnant that does not accept Jesus. While there is life there is hope that they will someday. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 3:25pm
beleiver,
there were those who rejected Jesus, as the christ and disbelieved, they mocked him and called him illegal child (true beleivers once, but rejected God's prophet Jesus, we now know them as Jews).
The followeres fo Jesus turned their prophet into God.
Then God sent Mohammed (pbuh) with the word of God to guide the misguided, and those who rejected him as the prophet and fall into disbelief are known as Chrsitians.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 7:15am
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His only son by a fellow worshiper of his God Jehovah and in the falimy line of true worshipers, whereas hagar was not, thus his only one who would have his inheratance and family line to Jesus Christ the Messiah from God's viewpoint which is above human views etc.!
Genesis 17:18-21 �After that Abraham said to the [true] God: �O that Ishmael might live before you!� 19 To this God said: �Sarah your wife is indeed bearing you a son, and you must call his name Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for a covenant to time indefinite to his seed after him. 20 But as regards Ishmael I have heard you. Look! I will bless him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him very, very much. He will certainly produce twelve chieftains, and I will make him become a great nation. 21 However, my covenant I shall establish with Isaac, . . .� |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 3:54pm
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Robin,
Ishmael was the first son of Abraham, and if any time someone will refer to as the only son of Abraham would mean Ishmael because after the birth of Isaac, none of his sons can be called his only son. Its a technical matter not of understanding. If one has fathered two children, he will always be their father and they his children regardless if one is deaf, blind, a fire worshipper, pagan, or from his own belief.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 7:25am
Yes but, Paul referred to Isaac as Abraham�s "only-begotten son" (Heb 11:17), even though Abraham also fathered Ishmael by Hagar as well as several sons by Keturah. (Ge 16:15; 25:1, 2; 1Ch 1:28, 32) God�s covenant, however, was established only through Isaac, Abraham�s only son by God�s promise, as well as the only son of Sarah. (Ge 17:16-19) Furthermore, at the time Abraham offered up Isaac, he was the only son in his father�s household. No sons had yet been born to Keturah, and Ishmael had been gone for some 20 years�no doubt was married and head of his own household.�Ge 22:2. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 8:48am
Robin,
I guess you see it that way, I don't. I see it very clear from the same quotes that, Ishmael was the first son of Abraham, regardless of even going to the moon, the father and son, daughtrer mother relationship never ends. Even though Hagar and Abraham were worshipping same God and have same belief, even if one marries out of their religion and have kids, those kids are still theirs and they their parents. And even that was not the case with Abraham and Hagar.
For me its ridiculous to assume that just by moving to a different area or state suddenly your son is not your son anymore! and that's what you insist.
But because it point out to a inconsistancy in the Bible, you are willing to erase the realationship of the first born son of Abraham to nothing?
I am sorry, you may do so, I cannot. Its too obvious and clear for me, and I cannot hide a fact so clearly visible.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 2:56pm
It is God's view that matter hear, he is Abrahams son but not by God will or way, that can only be view his wife.
Ishamel was blessed but not with the promises of Abraham, that is only for Isaac!
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 5:17pm
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It is just me who is lost what Robin is saying here, or someone get it?
Robin,
1- You said: "he is Abrahams son but not by God will or way"Are you saying Abraham has Ishmael without the will of God?
2- I don't know what you mean with this: "can only be view his wife."
3- Then you also say " Ishamel was blessed but not with the promises of Abraham",
Can you please clear those three so we can proceed.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 4:57am
1- You said: "he is Abrahams son but not by God will or way" Are you saying Abraham has Ishmael without the will of God?
Ishmael was from Sarah�s maid, with no recorded of God telling Abraham to have a son by his wife�s maid, thus Ishmael came to be by man�s will not by God promise or direction! 2- I don't know what you mean with this: "can only be view his wife."
Sorry my mistake it should read "can only be VIA his wife." 3- Then you also say " Ishmael was blessed but not with the promises of Abraham",
Abraham had the promise that from him would come The Seed (or Messiah as the Bible latter reviles) that would bless all the nations.-Gen 26:4 |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 7:00am
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Salam Hassan,
You wrote -
Genesis 22:2 Then He (God)said, �Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.� The above quote is one of the numerous examples of the contradictions in the Bible.
Believer, God wanted to test Abraham with the sacrifice of his beloved son, his first born, at that time his only son, Ishmael. God would not have tested him, if he has two sons, because this task would be easy for him.
Ismael was the long awaited son, so precious to Abraham, yet Ismael was required to be sacrificed by God, but because of his faith with God AlMighty, Abraham did not even sway from his faith with God.
By the way, God's plan to put Hagar in Mecca was because He knew what kind of people the Bani Israel were - killing prophets was their favourite past-time. The Jews even tried to do that to Muhammad, but of course God is the best of planners. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 7:13am
IF JESUS IS GOD, is there anything that proves he created this whole wide world? The rivers, the oceans, the leaves, the stars and all that is in this unverse?
The original Torah which was sent to Moses was corrupted and what you people called the Old Testament, the Injeel which was sent down to Jesus and now also corrupted is called the New Testament, but ALQURAN sent to Muhammad, guaranted by GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF IS CALLED THE FINAL TESTAMENT. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 12:30am
God commanded Abraham to sacrifice "your son, your only son." (Gen. 22:2) In connection with Abraham�s offering up this son, the promise of blessing by means of Abraham�s seed was stated by an angel of God. The Qur�an, too, speaks of Abraham as having a "boy ready to suffer and forbear" and whom Abraham would "offer . . . in sacrifice." (Sura 37:101, 102) The Qur�an does not specify who the boy was. However, some Moslem writers claim that the expression "only son" must apply to Ishmael.
It is noteworthy that Isaac was an "only son" in a double sense. He was the only son of Abraham�s wife Sarah and the only son remaining in Abraham�s household at the time that God spoke the words found at Genesis 22:1, 2. Qur�an translator Ali admits that "Muslim tradition . . . is not unanimous on this point." Some Moslem writers agree with the Biblical account that Isaac was the prospective sacrifice.
It is that you do not yet grasp the meanings of the Bible that leads you to say it is a contradiction.
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Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 2:56am
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"It is noteworthy that Isaac was an "only son" in a double sense. He was the only son of Abraham�s wife Sarah and the only son remaining in Abraham�s household at the time that God spoke the words found at Genesis 22:1, 2. Qur�an translator Ali admits that "Muslim tradition . . . is not unanimous on this point." Some Moslem writers agree with the Biblical account that Isaac was the prospective sacrifice."
But the Bible does not specify the only son of Abraham and Sarah. Nor does it specify your only remaining son. It states your only son, which would indicate the only son in existence at the time God ordered the sacrifice.
BTW: Muslims believe that Abraham and Hajar were married so only legitimate son would not apply.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 4:08am
The Bible shows you to be wrong:-
Genesis 16:1-4
Now Sar�ai, A�bram�s wife, had borne him no children; but she had an Egyptian maidservant and her name was Ha�gar. 2 Hence Sar�ai said to A�bram: "Please now! Jehovah has shut me off from bearing children. Please, have relations with my maidservant. Perhaps I may get children from her." So A�bram listened to the voice of Sar�ai. 3 Then Sar�ai, A�bram�s wife, took Ha�gar, her Egyptian maidservant, at the end of ten years of A�bram�s dwelling in the land of Ca�naan, and gave her to A�bram her husband as his wife. 4 Accordingly he had relations with Ha�gar, and she became pregnant. When she became aware that she was pregnant, then her mistress began to be despised in her eyes.
Genesis 16:15-16
Later on Ha�gar bore to A�bram a son and A�bram called the name of his son whom Ha�gar bore Ish�ma�el. 16 And A�bram was eighty-six years old at Ha�gar�s bearing Ish�ma�el to A�bram.
Genesis 25:12
And this is the history of Ish�ma�el the son of Abraham whom Ha�gar the Egyptian the maidservant of Sarah bore to Abraham.
Abraham's other wife:-
Genesis 25:1-2
Furthermore, Abraham again took a wife, and her name was Ke�tu�rah. 2 In time she bore him Zim�ran and Jok�shan and Me�dan and Mid�i�an and Ish�bak and Shu�ah.
Genesis 25:5-6
Later on Abraham gave everything he had to Isaac, 6 but to the sons of the concubines that Abraham had Abraham gave gifts. Then he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he was still alive, eastward, to the land of the East.
The meaning, in part, of the above:-
Galatians 4:21-26
Tell me, YOU who want to be under law, Do YOU not hear the Law? 22 For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; 23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise. 24 These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si�nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha�gar. 25 Now this Ha�gar means Si�nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 7:35am
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Robin,
How can you expect us to believe what the Bible wrote, when the word Bible and Christianity was not even mentioned in the Bible?
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 8:49am
How do you excect anyone to beleive what you say about the Quran etc. when you do not beleive the Bible, upon which Islam say the Quran is based?
The more you run down the Bible the more you destroy trust in your own faith as you claim they both come from the same God and the same book!
THE QUR'AN'S TESTAMENT ON THE BIBLE Su 4:163 We have sent thee Inspiration, as We sent it To Noah and the Messengers After him: We sent Inspiration to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob And the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, And to David We gave The Psalms 164 Of some apostles We have Already told thee the story; Of others we have not;- And Moses God spoke direct;- 165 Apostles who gave good news As well as warning, That mankind, after (the coming) Of the apostles, should have No plea against God: For God is Exalted in Power, ALL Muslims Must Believe The all the Apostles including Paul according to the Qur'an? 2:87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an Apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride? --Some ye call impostors, and others ye slay! 2:253 Those apostles we endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary we gave Clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after Clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah fulfilleth His plan. 2:285 The Apostle believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." 3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgement between right and wrong). 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, hath gone far, far astray. 4:150 Those who deny God And His apostles, and (those Who) wish to separate God from His apostles, Saying: "We believe in some But reject others": And (those who) wish To take a course midway,- 152 To those who believe In God and His apostles And make no distinction Between any of the apostles, We shall soon give Their (due) rewards: For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 4:165 Apostles who gave good news as well as warning that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against Allah: For Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. 5:13 Allah did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel, and We appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: If ye (but) establish regular Prayers, practice regular Charity, believe in My apostles, honor and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path of rectitude." 5:71 Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith. The Bible held in high esteem as being true and accurate!! Surahs: 2:38, 83, 91, 95; 3:2; 4:50; 6:34, 115; 10:65; 18:25; 45:19; |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 9:11am
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salaams Nur,
I am somewhat confused to what you believe. In this section you say:-
"The original Torah which was sent to Moses was corrupted "
Yet, on another post you say :-
"A true Muslim do not believe in the Old Testament or the New Testament. I do believe in the Taurah that was sent to Moses and the Injeel sent to Isa"
Are you acknowledging then that you believe in the corrupted torah? And is not the torah part of the Old Testament?
Also, Moses wrote down the torah did he not? Was he corrupt then?
Perhaps you can explain better for me. thanks ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 9:18am
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Salaams Nur,
would I be right in thinking that muslims only choose to believe in part of the Old Testament. How can that be? Is that not just convenient then?
Perhaps another muslim can explain exactly what scriptures we believe in. other than the Qur'an? And explain why we believe in them? ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 12:03pm
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According to the Merriam webster dictionary online, a Covenant is defined as: a Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from present participle of covenir to be fitting, from Latin convenire Date: 14th century 1: a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement :(contract) compact2 a: a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action b: the common-law action to recover damages for breach of such a contract Funny, I did a search on the quran with the word "covenant" and got many hits: Quran 2:124 And [remember this:] when his Sustainer tried Abraham by [His] commandments and the latter fulfilled them, Asad(2,100) ../Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Efalse%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Efalse%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Efalse%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Efalse%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=covenant&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search# - covenant does not embrace the evildoers." An-Nisa (The Women) 4:92 AND IT IS not conceivable that a believer should slay another believer, unless it be by mistake. Asad(4,114) ../Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Efalse%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Efalse%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Efalse%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Efalse%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=covenant&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search# - - [115] unless they forgo it by way of charity. Now if the slain, while himself a believer, belonged to a people who are at war with you, Asad(4,116) ../Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Efalse%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Efalse%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Efalse%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Efalse%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=covenant&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search# - covenant, [it shall consist of] an indemnity to be paid to his relations in ad�dition to the freeing of a believing soul from bon�dage. Asad(4,117) ../Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Efalse%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Efalse%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Efalse%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Efalse%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=covenant&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search# - - [118] (This is) the atonement ordained by God: and God is indeed all-knowing, wise. 9:1
DISAVOWAL by God and His Apostle [is herewith announced] unto those who
ascribe divinity to aught beside God, [and] with whom you [O:
believers] have made a covenant. Asad(9,1) ../Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Efalse%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Efalse%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Efalse%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Efalse%3C/al%3E&-op=cn&Asad=covenant&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=CV&-Search# - Ar-Ra'd (The Thunder)
13:20 they who are true to their bond with God and never break their covenant; |
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 12:29pm
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Ismael, by your own book, was in the "covenant" http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - Genesis 17:23 On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. Constantine changed the wording in the bible you read today..can you find a translated copy of the torah prove otherwise? And the truth about translating a work from its original language from a source that is neither Islamic or chrisian:
------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
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Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 12:37pm
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 12:43pm
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http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2636/jewish/The-Return-of-Hagar.htm Another statement regarding Hagar and Ismael from this Website: And Abraham again took a wife, and her name was Keturah Genesis 25:1 Keturah is Hagar. Why is she called Keturah? For her deeds were [now] as pleasing as the ketoret. Midrash Rabbah on verse Hagar was the Egyptian maidservant of Abraham's first wife, Sarah. When Sarah had failed to conceive a child after many years of marriage, she implored Abraham to have a child with Hagar. Hagar did give Abraham a child, Ishmael, who turned out "a wild man, whose hand is against everyone and everyone's hand is against him" (Genesis 16:12). Sarah then demanded of Abraham that he banish Hagar and Ishmael from their home. When Abraham hesitated, G-d instructed him, "whatever Sarah tells you to do, hearken to her voice." Hagar drifted back to the paganism of her homeland, and found an Egyptian wife for Ishmael. Years later, however, we find Ishmael back in the Abrahamic fold, accompanying Abraham and Isaac to the akeidah. And then, three years after Sarah's death, Abraham remarries Hagar. The reconciliation is now complete--indeed it is Sarah's son, Isaac, who brings Hagar back for her marriage with his father (as per Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 24:62). "Everything that happened to the Patriarchs," say our sages, "is a signpost for their children. This is why the Torah elaborates on... the events of their lives... for they all come to instruct the future" (Nachmanides on Genesis 12:6). The same is true regarding the shifts in Abraham's relationship with his "barbarous" wife and son: his expulsion of Hagar and Ishmael and their subsequent readmission into his family represent the different stages in our history of dealing with the "Hagars" and "Ishmaels" in our lives--the raw and unruly elements in our nature, society and environment. ------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 1:51pm
Not so:-
Genesis 25:4-6
All these were the sons of Keturah. 5 Later on Abraham gave everything he had to Isaac, 6 but to the sons of the concubines that Abraham had Abraham gave gifts.. . .
Note "concubines" more that one!
1st concubine Hagar
2nd concubine Keturah
If they where the same person it would read 'concubine" as in one, but this is not then case!
Sarah was his wife, thus NOT a concubine!
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Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 4:17pm
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A clarification: Whether or not someone holds the status of concubine vs. wife is NOT the subject Robin. And you are quoting once again, the Constantine devised version of your scriptures that I do not find to be correct. The translated word from the greek septuagint for wife is the same as concubine. Hagar was not a concubine. A man could have more than one wife. Purportedly Jacob had 2 wives and 2 he called concubines. I anm simply posting different theories and all of them have a different story just as your bible has a different story. the story about Hagar being Keturah is from the jewish source from a torah based site called Chabad.org so it must be you Christians that have changed the torah of the Almighty One God. So what really is the truth!? You are arguing on a Muslim forum. Why? ------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 1:09am
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Hi Robin, For your kind information, the word Bible never appear in the Quran. However the word Injeel - meaning Gospel appeared 12 times in the Quran which is by the way more than the word Quran which appeared 8 times.
And we sent, following in their footsteps (prophet) jesus, the son of mary, confirming that which was before him in the torah, and gave him the Injeel - gospel, in which there is guidance and light, confirming that which was before him in the torah, a guide and an admonition to the cautious. (46)
Allah sent the Injeel in the language of the people of Jesus son of Mary that is in Aramaic not in English. Can the Christians produce this authentic copy? No they cannot.
In the Injeel, the name Ahmad (Muhammad) also appeared informing the followers of Jesus that there will appear the last Prophet whose name is Ahmad (Muhammad). That is according to the Quran.
But can you find that beautiful name (Ahmad) in the Bible now? ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 1:28am
Hi Martha,
There are 3 pillars of Islamic religion.
1. The 5 pillars of Islam
2. The 6 pillars of Iman
3. The 2 pillars of Ihsan.
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The 6 pillars of iman are -
Belief in Allah;
Belief in the angels;
Belief in the revealed books;
Belief in the commissioned Messengers (peace be upon them).
Belief in the resurrection and the events of Qiyamah.
Belief in the predestination by Allah of all things, both the (seemingly) good and the (seemingly) bad.
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The Third Pillar
Belief in the Books of Allah.
General belief in the phenomenon of the sending of books.
Six specific books mentioned in the Qur'an:
As-Suhuf of Ibrahim and Musa.
Az-Zaboor given to Daud.
At-Taurat revealed to Musa.
Al-Injeel revealed to Isa.
Al-Qur'an - the final revelation.
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Martha,
The books that Allah sent down to the people of that time were just as guides for people of that time. Especially in regards to seeking God AlMighty.
And Martha as we know, all other original books of Allah except Alquran cannot be found. It had been lost. The Old Testament and the New Testament, are all corrupted books. Not that Allah cannot preserve them, He has the power to do so, but He had Quran in mind and the Quran is guaranteed by Allah Subhanahuwataala Himself.
Sura 6:115 "Perfected is the word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words." ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 8:54am
Wrong again the word "concubine" is from the ancient Hebrew word:-
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary No.6370 פּלגשׁ פּילגשׁ pîylegesh pilegesh pee-leh'-ghesh, pee-leh'-ghesh Of uncertain derivation; a concubine; also (masculine) a paramour: - concubine, paramou |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 12:12pm
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Robin,
Hagar was given to Abraham in marriage, correct?
Then she was his wife, that is more important than whether she was Egyptian or Greek, a princess or a slave, it does not make a penny's differance. Haggar was given to Abraham in marriage to be his wife, and she was. Those are the words of what we have now as the Bible.
My wife is my wife, whether I move to Texas, Russia, Africa or Mexico.
My wife was a Christian when we married, she was my wife then, she accepted Islam seven years later she is still my wife The events don't change my relationships with my wife and with my children with time or place.
You are trying to say that Hagar was not Abraham's wife or Ishmael was not his son, simply because doing so you will be admitting to a big inconsistancy out of many in the Bible. It is not wise to justify a mistake by making another.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 4:11pm
She was a concubine. Among the Hebrews a concubine occupied a position in the nature of a secondary wife and was sometimes spoken of as a wife. It appears that concubines were slave girls, one of three kinds: (1) a Hebrew girl sold by her father (Ex 21:7-9), (2) a foreign slave girl purchased, or (3) a foreign girl captured in warfare (De 21:10-14). Some were the slave girls or handmaids of the free wife, as in the cases of Sarah, Leah, and Rachel.�Ge 16:3, 4; 30:3-13; Jg 8:31; 9:18.
Concubinage was in existence before the Law covenant and was recognized and regulated by the Law, which protected the rights of both wives and concubines. (Ex 21:7-11; De 21:14-17) Concubines did not have all the rights in the household that the regular wife had, and a man might have a plurality of wives along with concubines. (1Ki 11:3; 2Ch 11:21) In cases where the wife was barren, she sometimes gave her handmaid to the husband as a concubine, and the child born of the concubine would then be considered as the child of the free wife, her mistress. (Ge 16:2; 30:3) Sons of concubines were legitimate and could inherit.�Ge 49:16-21; compare Ge 30:3-12. Hagar did not inherit God's promise:- THE SEED OF GOD'S PROMISE NOT THROUGH ISHMAEL
Genesis 21:8-13
Now the child kept growing and came to be weaned; and Abraham then prepared a big feast on the day of Isaac's being weaned. 9 And Sarah kept noticing the son of Ha'gar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, poking fun. 10 So she began to say to Abraham: "Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an heir with my son, with Isaac!" 11 But the thing proved to be very displeasing to Abraham as regards his son. 12 Then God said to Abraham: "Do not let anything that Sarah keeps saying to you be displeasing to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be. 13 And as for the son of the slave girl, I shall also constitute him a nation, because he is your offspring."
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 5:49pm
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Robin the bottom line on this is:
"because he is your offspring" as you quoted.
Ishmael is Abrham's offspring, his son, his first son to be exact according to this quote. There is no denial of that here rather acknowledgement and that's my point.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 11:48pm
But the more important point is that the Messiah was not of Ishmael's line it was via Isaac's line:-
Galatians 4:22-26
For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; 23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise. 24 These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si�nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha�gar. 25 Now this Ha�gar means Si�nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
"Jersalem above" is a prophetic referance to God's Kingdom with the Messiah as it's King which is Jesus as King of kings.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 June 2008 at 6:44pm
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Robin,
I am not really interested in with who and what was the covenant with in the "Bible". Its gone, its history. New prophets since then had arrived and conveyed the truth of the matter. In my belief, all the God's prophets had a covenant with God to do thier job for what they were sent, to deliver God's message to their people, that's it.
Also, I believe that relationships: father, mother, son , daughter, wife, husband etc. in reality remain same at all times on this earth for all, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Jew, an Athiest, a Catholic and so on.
Robin, I am not trying to convince you or to change your understanding or belief, rather showing you my reading and understanding of the matter.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 11 June 2008 at 6:47am
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But the more important point is that the Messiah was not of Ishmael's line it was via Isaac's line:-
robin, it is true that Messiah was not from the line of Ishmael. He was from the line of Issac. That is what the Quran tells us. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 11:43pm
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Robin: But the more important point is that the Messiah was not of Ishmael's
line it was via Isaac's line |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 9:43am
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Mohammad only called a warner, or messanger- never called a Messiah.
046.009 ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:32pm
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again the word "concubine" is from the ancient Hebrew word:-
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary No.6370 פּלגשׁ פּילגשׁ pîylegesh pilegesh pee-leh'-ghesh, pee-leh'-ghesh Of uncertain derivation; a concubine; also (masculine) a paramour: - concubine, paramount
I Disagree, as a historian, the original torah was written in ARAMAIC..NOT THIS MODERNIZED FORM OF Ancient Hebrew you are showing. We do not have the original unfortunately. ------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 1:32pm
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Believer: Mohammad only
called a warner, or messanger- never called a Messiah. 1- Mohammad means praised. Can we say Isa(as) is not praised because his name is not Mohammad? Of course not. 2- Regarding the verse you quoted from Quran, it is emphasized that Mohammad sawa (and anybody else of messengers) is not all knowing inherently. That was to prevent people from calling him God like what people did about Isa(as), Isa(as) also emphasized the same. 3- In the very same verse you quoted, it is written then: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me. This again proves the infallibility of Mohammad sawa. 4- Remover of all sins: Quran (4:64) And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed through Allah's Permission. Whenever they were unjust to themselves, come to you (Mohammad) and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah returning (Merciful). Quran ( |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 6:48pm
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http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59082&FID=10 - myahya - so you also believe that the Pope is infallible? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 21 June 2008 at 1:51am
| No...!! |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 10:01am
Then the promised one in not muhammed, just as the Bible teaches!
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 10:36pm
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What is the promised one. Ishmael was the beloved son of old age of Abraham, the only son. robin, if you read the bible without prejudice and bias, you will find that Ishmael was the first born son of Abraham and the only son till about 13 years. That is a fact proved by the bible OT. Perhaps you are not willing and ready to admit that Ishmael was the son of Abraham.
Then later we will see about the promised son. First you have to admit that Ishmael was the son of Abraham and that he was the only son and the first born son. Do you admit that please. Let us know. Then we will look into the promised son too. Thanks.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 9:30am
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I don't think robin denied that Ishmail is Abraham's son.
-------------  ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 6:55pm
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I am not sure. I feel that he has not replied to my question about Ishmael being the son of Abraham. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 07 July 2008 at 8:21pm
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robin, you had not replied to my question about Ishmael. Was he the son of Abraham or not. Please tell rather quickly now because it has been the cause of much misunderstanding. Just reply yes or no. Thanks. Please reply as soon as possible. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 7:00am
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I am fairly certain that Jehovah Witness believe that Ishmail was a son of Abraham, but not the son through which the covenant was made. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 10:01am
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That seems to be the general belief of all christians. But let us hear the brief report from robin. I am most interested in the belief that Ishmael was the son of Abraham or not. Was he the only son or not? Was he the beloved son or not? Was he the first born or not? Please all friends comment very brief about these things.
Then we will look after the convent too.
Thanks. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 1:05am
Yes he was the his son by the handmaiden, Hagar, BUT NOT the son of God's promise to him! |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 7:19am
From a human view point, but does God's word agree with human conclustion?
Paul also referred to Isaac as Abraham�s "only-begotten son" (Heb 11:17), even though Abraham also fathered Ishmael by Hagar as well as several sons by Keturah. (Gen 16:15; 25:1, 2; 1 Chron 1:28, 32) God�s covenant, however, was established only through Isaac, Abraham�s only son by God�s promise, as well as the only son of Sarah. (Gen 17:16-19) Furthermore, at the time Abraham offered up Isaac, he was the only son in his father�s household. No sons had yet been born to Keturah, and Ishmael had been gone for some 20 years�no doubt was married and head of his own household.�Gen 22:2. Galatians 4:27-31
For it is written: "Be glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break out and cry aloud, you woman who does not have childbirth pains; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than [those] of her who has the husband." 28 Now we, brothers, are children belonging to the promise the same as Isaac was. 29 But just as then the one born in the manner of flesh began persecuting the one born in the manner of spirit, so also now. 30 Nevertheless, what does the Scripture say? "Drive out the servant girl and her son, for by no means shall the son of the servant girl be an heir with the son of the free woman." 31 Wherefore, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman.
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 1:39am
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Allah s.w.t. promised Abraham a.s. and Sarah to give them a son and
He fulfilled his promise by giving Isaac a.s. to them who was one of the prophets. That is all in Truth. You can not prove anything more than this even from the scriptures nor can you define
prophet�s levels by this. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 5:27am
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Sarah was barren. When she became fully hopeless, she did a good thing that she agreed to hagar being a wife to Abraham. Hagar became pregnant and bore a child to Abraham. That child was also woth promise, even his name (Ismael( was told to Hagar and Abraham. There were some promises for that son too and that his children will be many and they will be princes.
Abraham kept on working happily with Ishmael as his first born and the only son for about 10 years. If Ishmael is the son of Abraham then Issac cannot be the only son of Abraham.
Ishmael was offered for sacrifice by Abraham at the command of God. (any one can read it in Quran ch.37 verses 83 to 112). Allah was much pleased with Abraham due to his offering his only son of old age for sacrifice. Allah was happy and then informed Abraham that he will have another son through the barren wife (Sarah). That son (Issac) was a prize from God due to the willing sacrifice of Ishmael.
The bible writers, haphazardly inserted the name of Issac every where instead of Ishmael and by some means tried to dis-inherit Ishmael. (Continued)
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 5:37am
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The words of bible are not reliable. God offered Abraham the land. He said, "What shall I do with the land when I have no children". That was when he had no child at all. Abraham was saying that if there is no child and he himself dies then the land will be gone, no more his land.
At that time he had no child. Later Ishmael was born and God tested Abraham by telling him to sacrifice his dearest thing. He tried to sacrifice some camels. But he had the same vision another night. Then he came to know that his dearest thing was the only son of old age i.e. Ishmael. So he got ready to sacrifice him.
He told his son Ishmael (who was about 10 years old and they were in Arabia) that he was going to sacrifice him in the way of Allah and even asked the opinion of the son in that matter. The son (Ishmael) replied in affirmative ( Al Quran 37:100, 101, 102) and said that he was ready to bear all patiently.
In the bible if you see this incident, the father (Abraham) does not tell Issac what he was going to do. Even when the son asked about the animal, Abraham said that it will be provided on the mountain. So he never told Issac that he was going to sacrifice him. (continued....) ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 6:01am
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Quran does not name the sacrificial son. It does not say Ishamel or Issac. That is because the bible writers had altered the version of that episode by putting the name of Issac in place of Ishmael. Quran does not want to make it an issue for open diversion. But in chapter 37 of Quran verses 83 to 113, the matter is quite clear it was the first born who was offered for sacrifice. The good news of the birth of Issac was given as a reward (37:110) for his good work.
As far as the land is concerned, I am fully agreed that the land where Abraham was living originally (i.e. palestine) was the promised land and it was for Issac or more accurately for the children of Abraham. Later also when the Jews were taken as servants in Egypt, it was the promised land for them.
Abraham was very wise person. He had moved his wife (Hagar) and son Ishmael away from Palestine well before Issac was born. He left the son and mother there in the area which is now called makkah. He used to keep on visiting them from time to time. That transfer of Ishmael and his mother to Makkah was under divine plan (as per orders from Allah). Later Abraham may have taken his son Ishmael to Kana'an (Palestine) again at the time of birth of Issac. But Ishmael was made to settle very well in Arabia before the birth of Issac.
They all had good relation. I cannot understand why the bible writers have presented them as bad narrow minded persons. I mean Sarah was also a good person. But she is presented as if she is greedy and haughty lady. There was no such thing. They were all living happily and lovingly together. When Sarah died, Abraham was away in Arabia (as er bible). He later went to Palestine to weep for her.
When Abraham died, Ishmael was present in Palestine with Issac and both brothers together buried their father. Issac knew Ishmael as his elder brother.
There was no case of inheritance at all. Abraham took care of that long time earlier. He settled his eldest son (Ishmael) far away from second son Issac. There was no problem of the land inheritance and no problem for any spiritual blessings too. Both Ishmael and Issac were blessed (as per bible, reference will be added by editing)....
So there is no problem of any inheritance at all. There is no need to argue about it, I hope. If I am not wrong.
Please see some verses from Genesis ch. 15 and 16 below:
From bible gateway chapter 15.
15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael. Chapter 16: 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him. 23 On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. Please note that covenant is being established even before Issac is born. And the news of the birth of Issac is being given twice, if one reads the chapters carefully. There seems to be some doubling there. (I have not presented that part here.)------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 7:32am
Genesis 22:9-10
Finally they reached the place that the [true] God had designated to him, and Abraham built an altar there and set the wood in order and bound Isaac his son hand and foot and put him upon the altar on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham put out his hand and took the slaughtering knife to kill his son.
The family Tree in the Gospels of Matt. & Luke of Jesus Christ show you to be wrong in connection with your comments on �Ishmael� & not Isaac etc.. Matthew 1:2 Abraham became father to Isaac; Isaac became father to Jacob; Jacob became father to Judah and his brothers. . . 6 Jes�se became father to David the king. David became father to Sol�o�mon by the wife of U�ri�ah; . . . 16 became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.� Luke 3:23 Furthermore, Jesus himself, when he commenced [his work], was about thirty years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph,. . . 31-32 .[son] of David, 32 [son] of Jes�se,. . . 34) . . .[son] of Jacob, [son] of Isaac, [son] of Abraham,. . .� |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 10:16am
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I agree robin. Are you trying to tell me that Jesus was the son of Joseph? If so please let me know because I feel that from your post above, it all appears like that, from the bible verses quoted by you. Very good, welcome. Please clear this thing by your own writing. Thanks. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 4:16pm
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The Biblical story of Abraham and Sarah is interesting. First Sarah tells her husband to commit adultery and have a child out of wedlock. Then she becomes abusive to the pregnant Hagar and blames Abraham for getting her pregnant, so much so that Hagar runs away. But God still holds Sarah in such high esteem he chooses her to be the mother of nations, then when she has Isaac she forces her husband to turn his back on and abandon his first child and the maidservant she forced to have sex with him, driving them into the desert to die. Yet, God still has no problem with this behavior, even to the point of denying the existence of Abraham's first son Ishmael, so that in the story Isaac becomes his only begotten son. And these were supposed to be the righteous believers.
If you believe the chronology of the Bible, then Jesus cannot possibly belong to the line of David, his one true claim to Messiah-hood. Unless Joseph truly was his biological father, because even though both versions of the family tree contradict, Joseph is still the link to David.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 10:22am
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[QUOTE=Shasta'sAunt]The Biblical story of Abraham and Sarah is interesting. First Sarah tells her husband to commit adultery and have a child out of wedlock.
[quote]
For a baran woman to give her hand madain to her husband to father a child was not againt the law of Allah at that time, thus you are wrong in the above!
An example of the Secondary wife rights:- Deuteronomy 21:15-17
"In case a man comes to have two wives, the one loved and the other hated, and they, the loved one and the hated one, have borne sons to him, and the firstborn son has come to be of the hated one, 16 it must also occur that in the day that he gives as an inheritance to his sons what he happens to have, he will not be allowed to constitute the son of the loved one his firstborn at the expense of the hated one�s son, the firstborn. 17 For he should recognize as the firstborn the hated one�s son by giving him two parts in everything he is found to have, because that one is the beginning of his generative power. The right of the firstborn�s position belongs to him.
Jesus legal right from Allah and his family tree to be a King in the line of King David:- Luke 1:30-33 So the angel said to her: �Have no fear, Mary, for you have found favor with God; 31 and, look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end of his kingdom.� |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 5:36pm
Hi Robin,
you wrote a quote:
"32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father"
The above statment contradicts in two ways:
1- Jesus never ascended to the throne of David, never became a king like David was.
2- there is a statement in the same book of the Bible that negate the above claim of his kinship to David. Let us compare the two quotes.
32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father"
Luke 20:41-44 Then Jesus said to them, "How is it that they say the Christ is son of David........David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?" Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 5:54pm
So how is it that Isaac was Abraham's only son?
"he will not be allowed to constitute the son of the loved one his firstborn at the expense of the hated one�s son, the firstborn. 17 For he should recognize as the firstborn the hated one�s son by giving him two parts in everything he is found to have, because that one is the beginning of his generative power. The right of the firstborn�s position belongs to him."
First, the child prophesied from the house of David was to be named Immanuel. Even in Matthew we have God commanding Joseph to name Mary's baby Jesus even while the recounting of the prophesy of Isaiah and the child Immanuel is being given as proof that Jesus is the Messiah. Did God forget that He told Isaiah and his descendants that the child was to be named Immanuel?
Isaiah 7
13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Matthew 1
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Second, if Jesus is not the biological son of Joseph, then he can not possibly be from the house of David as Joseph is the only biological connection to David. Therefore Jesus could not be from the seed of David unless he is the son of Joseph. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 2:08pm
JESUS IS THE BIOLOGIAL SON OF MARY WHO IS IN THE FAMILY LINE OF KING DAVID, THUS JESUS IS A KING OF THE HOUSE OF DAVID.
AND:-
Luke 1:26-33
In her sixth month the angel Ga�bri�el was sent forth from God to a city of Gal�i�lee named Naz�a�reth, 27 to a virgin promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of David�s house; and the name of the virgin was Mary. 28 And when he went in before her he said: "Good day, highly favored one, Jehovah is with you." 29 But she was deeply disturbed at the saying and began to reason out what sort of greeting this might be. 30 So the angel said to her: "Have no fear, Mary, for you have found favor with God; 31 and, look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end of his kingdom." |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 6:55pm
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"to a virgin promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of David�s house;"
Mary's genealogy is of no consequence as Biblically tribal genealogy was only recorded paternally:
Numbers 1
17 And Moses and Aaron took these men which are expressed by their names:
18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. Mary's genealogy is never recorded in the Bible. Even if Mary's genealogy were recorded, Mary was Elisabeth's cousin36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. who was from the house of Aaron, so Mary was from the house of Aaron, the tribe of Levi, not Judah:
Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And Luke also states:
Luke 2
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
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