Information about the tawhid
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Topic: Information about the tawhid
Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Subject: Information about the tawhid
Date Posted: 21 February 2008 at 3:28pm
Hello,
I am writing a Master's thesis discussing the Islamic view of God. This includes a discussion of the Christian understanding of the Trinity compared to how Muslim theologians understand it. I would like to be as fair and accurate as possible.
Would anyone have any suggestions regarding Islamic texts that could be used the represent the Asharite theological school?
Thanks!
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Replies:
Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 21 February 2008 at 5:53pm
these i found for you very easly on net
this are not my work because i write poems
God's Attributes:
For a Christian, Experiencing God's Attributes, is pursuing God with Your Whole Heart, Mind, and Soul. The study of God's Attributes can help grow in the love for God by helping the faithful to know the Lord better through the scriptures.
To a Muslim, Allah (God in Aramaic) the Almighty, is Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing and nothing is comparable to Him. If the Creator is Eternal and Everlasting, then His attributes must also be eternal and everlasting. He should not lose any of His attributes nor acquire new ones. If this is so, then His attributes are absolute.
Science of Kalam:
Ilm al-Kalam is a branch of Islamic philosophy, generally referred to as Fiquhe. The Kalam, a discipline which evolved from medieval religiophilosophic debates, deals with Islamic doctrine definition and its defense by discursive arguments.
The rise of Kalam was closely associated with the Mu'tazilah, a rationalist school that emerged at the beginning of the second Islamic century (8th century AD) and became prominent in the next.
The Mu'tazila failure to follow up their intellectual and political position by imposing their views as official Islamic state doctrine lead to a resurgence of traditionalism and the emergence of the Ash'ariyya school, which attempted to present itself as a compromise between the two opposing extremes. However, the problem was not Kalam's fusion with philosophy as its failure to evolve into a fully-fledged Islamic philosophy with its own complete frame of reference.
Al-Ghazali, the Sufi sympathetic Imam of the Asharite school, stated that one must be well versed in the ideas of the philosophers before setting out to refute their ideas. The Incoherence of the Philosophers is the title of his landmark polemic in Islamic philosophy against the Islamic Neoplatonic school of thought, in which philosophers like Ibn Sina and al-Farabi are denounced.
God's Unity and Justice:
Mu'tazilism sought to valorize, under the attacks of Moslem heretics (Zanadiqa), the absolute Unity and Justice of God; but this valorization became quite quickly, a 'justification' ie the Divine Essence and Action become justified before and through human reason. It is to counter this reduction of the mystery that the Ash'aris take their stand, proclaiming the Omnipotence and the Omniscience of God, rejecting any ontological basis for human freedom of action, but seeking to refute the Mu'tazilis, using their own weapons.
God's Eternal Attributes:
The first principle denied the distinction between God's eternal attributes and His essence. This raised a question concerning the concept of divine will in
relation to the doctrine of the world's temporal creation. Most Mu'tazilites rejected Aristotle's potentially infinite divisibility of substance, adopting atomism as the only view consistent with the Qur'anic statement that God knows the determinate number of all things. Its principal dogmas were three:
a. God is an absolute unity, no attribute can be ascribed to Him.
b. Man is a free agent. It is on account of these two principles that the Motazilites designate themselves the 'Partisans of Justice and Unity'.
c. All knowledge necessary for the salvation of man emanates from his reason; humans could acquire knowledge before, as well as after, Revelation, is by the sole light of reason. This factual statement makes knowledge obligatory upon all men, at all times, and in all places.
Attributes and Trinity:
As far as the Sunni Muslim concept of Attributes is concerned, it can be shown that their position is almost parallel to that of Orthodox Christian. If one is to put the Attributes, in Muslim understanding, in place of the second and third Persons of the Trinity (The Merciful, The Compassionate), the doctrine of the Trinity is transformed into Muslim Attributism. However, unlike the second and third persons of the Trinity, which are Intradeical and extradeical, by unification, that is, they were at once the same as God and other than He, these orthodox Muslim attributes were intradeical and extradeical by 'location,' that is, they were in God but other than He. Whereas the unorthodox position of the Anti-attributists in Islam corresponds to Sabellianism in Christianity.
Mutazilah on causality:
The doctrine of the world's eternity, the Mutazili maintained, deprived God of will. It meant the simultaneity of cause and effect which only obtains, as in natural causes, when the effect is necessitated by the agent's nature or essence. Here, however, their principle of divine unity faced a major difficulty: if the divine will is conceived as an eternal attribute and hence not distinct from the divine essence, God's acts become in reality essential, not voluntary. This led many Mu`tazilites to argue that the divine will itself is created�a doctrine vulnerable to the Ash`arite criticism that such a will requires another created will to create it and so on ad infinitum.
Ibn Khaldun's Thought:
Ibn Khaldun's fourteenth century, was dominated by 'neo-Hanbalism', which aired strong suspicion of both mysticism and philosophy. Ibn Khaldun, born in Tunisia in 1332 AD, lived at a time when it was possible to reflect upon a profound period of Islamic thought, as a writer, he was to sum up this period, pointing towards the future of Islamic intellectual enquiry. He used the terms and concepts of his time, and some have argued that he was a culturally-specific phenomenon, interpreting his thought in Western terms must distort it fatally. Logic cannot be applied to this area of enquiry, and must be restricted to non-theological topics.
Philosophy was regarded as going beyond its appropriate level of discourse, in that the intellect should not be used to weigh such issues as 'the oneness of God, the other world, truth of prophecy, real essense of the divine attributes, or anything that lies beyond the intellect's domain' (Muqaddima 3, 38).
Ibn Khaldun was also critical of Neoplatonic philosophy, mainly the notion of a hierarchy of being, according to which human thought can be progressively purified until it encompasses the First Intellect which is identified with the necessary being, that is, God. He argued that this process (Theosis) is inconceivable without the participation of revelation, so that it is impossible for human beings to achieve the highest level of understanding and happiness (Orasis) through the use of reason alone. Interestingly, the basis of his argument here rests on the irreducibility of the empirical nature of our knowledge of facts, which cannot then be converted into abstract and pure concepts at a higher level of human consciousness. Ibn Khaldun follows al-Ghazali in reconciling mysticism with theology, bringing mysticism completely within the jurisprudent, and viewing the Sufi master, as a theologian
------------- awal
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Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 21 February 2008 at 6:55pm
I appreciate the effort.
However, do you know of any hard text or books that I could get my hands on.
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 21 February 2008 at 7:39pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
Hi,
You need hard copies for the references is that correct?
Its hard to find classical Islamic works that have been translated into english.
i know its not what you are looking for but you may be interested in these. http://alghazzali.org/resources/articles/ashariAqeedah.pdf -
http://alghazzali.org/resources/articles/ashariAqeedah.pdf
http://www.livingislam.org/ashari_e.html - http://www.livingislam.org/ashari_e.html http://sunnah.org/aqida/tabyin_kadhib.htm - http://sunnah.org/aqida/tabyin_kadhib.htm http://sunnah.org/aqida/alashaira.htm - http://sunnah.org/aqida/alashaira.htm
I believe Imam al Ghazali was an Ashari you may be interested in his work on the attributes of God but it is a deep work and easy to confuse matters espetially if we dont have the prerequisite knowledge required to correctly interprate statments, im speaking from personnel experiance http://www.islamicbookclub.com/Product.aspx?pk=12660 -
http://www.islamicbookclub.com/Product.aspx?pk=12660
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 22 February 2008 at 1:32am
Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 22 February 2008 at 7:56am
Thanks for all the links!!!!
No I do not know Arabic....well, I do know a little but not enough to say I know Arabic...
Would anyone be willing to answer the following questions?
1. Why do you personally reject the notion of the triune God?
2. How do you understand the concept of the Trinity? That is how would you describe it?
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 22 February 2008 at 8:37am
Warriorofelyon wrote:
Thanks for all the links!!!!
No I do not know Arabic....well, I do know a little but not enough to say I know Arabic...
Would anyone be willing to answer the following questions?
1. Why do you personally reject the notion of the triune God?
2. How do you understand the concept of the Trinity? That is how would you describe it?
|
in ISLAM there only one singular ALLAH
but there is trinity in nature
for the self
the surrounding
and the sustainer who sustains the self and the surroundings
here is example
SWEETSWORDS 35 [ Epistemological model of ILM ]
3 -2 -1 - 1 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 8
BISMILLAH
Poga Humayun Dundiwala
Setting is thus Man mineral and grass From this ignorant trinity Outcome the informative duality The divinity of minus and plus Beyond that the occult octagonal The force that sets three stages of fitrath nafs and aql Is the ilm of Illuminati ALLAH L a illa ha illel la MUHAMMAD ur rasul ALLAH
Setting is this Dark ignorance stark information and illuminating ignis Then further on With ignition of neuron The sermon is this A single god in octagonal bliss
Poga Say's in a foolington maze
Let me present Science of stages and signs of veils Sharriatic messengers and marrifatic mail MUHAMMADAN reality and truth of ALLAH Foundation less Sufi and fundamental Mullah Let me present MUHAMMADAN reality and theory of everything Sharriatic hidden cube and marrifatic manifest ring MUHAMMADAN reality and fact of Allah La illa ha illel la MUHAMMAD ur rasul ALLAH
------------- awal
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 22 February 2008 at 9:48pm
Warriorofelyon wrote:
Thanks for all the links!!!!
No I do not know Arabic....well, I do know a little but not enough to say I know Arabic...
Would anyone be willing to answer the following questions?
1. Why do you personally reject the notion of the triune God?
|
Greetings Warrior.
My reasons for personally objecting to the trinitarian godhead.
The lack of strong supporting evidence from a reliable source.
1) The verses used to establish the thesis from which to "interpret" the Hebrew Scriptures (HS) are at best "implicit".
2) The verses are not from a single verifiable authoritative source. (the NT cannot be verified to any author or any writer that can be established as a direct witness to what Jesus thought, stated, or acted)
3) The thesis is not found until after the first century, along with other competing ideas about the nature of Jesus and God. This kind of claim should require strong support from an authoritative source, since it delves into a form of "idolatry".
The idea that God is a trinitarian godhead is an argument to try and explain the issue of the divinity of Jesus.
1) I reject that Jesus is divine based upon the lack of theolgical evidence that should be supported by some authoritative source that is verifiable fro some kind of "confidence".
2) The HS do not have a need for God to become "man" and have to die for our sins. The HSS cover every required need for sin expiation. A "perfect" blood sacrifice is simply not required in the HS.
So the issue of my rejection of the trinity goes into several components of Church theology. I am not one to reject it due to any "irrational" holes in the theology, since, as Nietzshe once stated, "The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existance, rather a condition of it."
Even the idea that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow has no pure logical bases since the history of the sun rising in the east for millions of years does not mean it must do the same tomorrow.
2. How do you understand the concept of the Trinity? That is how would you describe it?
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That is a loaded question! Historically, the Christian doctors have not actually agreed with any consensus, and it has been pointed out to me by a knowledgeable member on this forum that the protestant movement delved into a shade of "modalism" that was considered a heresy in the first thousand years of the church (Israfil, you will have to clearify this as I forget the source you pointed out, and correct me if I have not quoted you correctly). Even the Jehovas Witnesses engage in the Arian Heresy. I think the safest place to start with a general understanding would be the " Athanasian Creed ".
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 6:40am
Warriorofelyon wrote:
Hello,
I am writing a Master's thesis discussing the Islamic view of God. This includes a discussion of the Christian understanding of the Trinity compared to how Muslim theologians understand it. I would like to be as fair and accurate as possible.
Would anyone have any suggestions regarding Islamic texts that could be used the represent the Asharite theological school?
Thanks!
|
to understand the singularity or duality or trinity or what ever first you need to learn about the setting
and ISHALLAH in this one poem you will learn more about the settings of creation then all the man made books of world put together
so i will take you step by step so ask me when you need
SWEETSWORDS 108 [ Elemental Setting of for Foe ]
BISMILLAH
3 - 2 - 1 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 8
Poga Humayun Dundiwala
Setting is thus Still mountainous terrain moving Forrest and removal ass They move on From innate to intuition Intuition to intelligence And intelligence to illumination This are only four stages out of eight In Huma's singular domain with eight Illuminati gate
The station the traveler and the rail Earthly station traveling plants and the animal mail In this trinity driver makes four For journey of stages and the marrifatic tour The tour de force The knowledge of epistemological models of ilm e course The course is as in sequence of the food for thought In the science of plus and minus and naught and dot
Poga Say's in a Foolington Maze
Fitrath of innate idols And the nafs of ambitious idolater Aql of intelligent mental patient And wisdom of spiritual doctor
Fitrath of innate idols and nature of mud Nafs and desire of plant and bud Aql of intelligence butterfly And Ruh of spiritual beekeeper In the science of wisdom And in the signs of nature
Fitrath nafs and aql and ruh Your innate nature intuitive desire intelligent mind and spiritual you Now who am i and where do fit in I am your heartache the hidden unseen
Fitrath nafs aql and ruh Me and you he and who All individual yet unified in aim In different stages and in different name All in one and one in all As mighty in tiny as great in small
------------- awal
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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 7:12pm
poga wrote:
Warriorofelyon wrote:
Hello,
I am writing a Master's thesis discussing the Islamic view of God. This includes a discussion of the Christian understanding of the Trinity compared to how Muslim theologians understand it. I would like to be as fair and accurate as possible.
Would anyone have any suggestions regarding Islamic texts that could be used the represent the Asharite theological school?
Thanks!
|
to understand the singularity or duality or trinity or what ever first you need to learn about the setting
and ISHALLAH in this one poem you will learn more about the settings of creation then all the man made books of world put together
so i will take you step by step so ask me when you need
SWEETSWORDS 108 [ Elemental Setting of for Foe ]
BISMILLAH
3 - 2 - 1 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 8
Poga Humayun Dundiwala
Setting is thus Still mountainous terrain moving Forrest and removal ass They move on From innate to intuition Intuition to intelligence And intelligence to illumination This are only four stages out of eight In Huma's singular domain with eight Illuminati gate
The station the traveler and the rail Earthly station traveling plants and the animal mail In this trinity driver makes four For journey of stages and the marrifatic tour The tour de force The knowledge of epistemological models of ilm e course The course is as in sequence of the food for thought In the science of plus and minus and naught and dot
Poga Say's in a Foolington Maze
Fitrath of innate idols And the nafs of ambitious idolater Aql of intelligent mental patient And wisdom of spiritual doctor
Fitrath of innate idols and nature of mud Nafs and desire of plant and bud Aql of intelligence butterfly And Ruh of spiritual beekeeper In the science of wisdom And in the signs of nature
Fitrath nafs and aql and ruh Your innate nature intuitive desire intelligent mind and spiritual you Now who am i and where do fit in I am your heartache the hidden unseen
Fitrath nafs aql and ruh Me and you he and who All individual yet unified in aim In different stages and in different name All in one and one in all As mighty in tiny as great in small
|
Poga, you have already responded to the post once before. This is a discussion forum, and not a potery section. Occasional poetry is ok, but you are filling the threads with your poetry, and sometimes you are replying to the same post twice with more poetry. This is borderline, "spaming". I have had several complaints about your posts. I for one find it more difficult to keep track of threads when you begin to paste your poetry into the discussion. It is borderline "disruption". People do not know half the time if you are insulting them or if you are aware of what the topic is about. Try and keep the poetry to a minimum.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 24 February 2008 at 7:06am
Warriorofelyon wrote:
1. Why do you personally reject the notion of the triune God?
2. How do you understand the concept of the Trinity? That is how would you describe it?
|
Perhaps you should read and understand the 99 attributes of Allah. Here is the link = http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm - http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/99names.htm If you read carefully the meaning of these names, I doubt you can find any other God that fits the description in these beautiful names.
We reject totally the triune of God as He is Al Awwal - The Beginning - The source of all that can be found in this whole Universe. He is Al Akhir - He has no End. And most importantly He is Al-Khaliq = The Creator.
Salam.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 24 February 2008 at 7:25am
Poga, you have already responded to the post once before. This is a discussion forum, and not a potery section. Occasional poetry is ok, but you are filling the threads with your poetry, and sometimes you are replying to the same post twice with more poetry. This is borderline, "spaming". I have had several complaints about your posts. I for one find it more difficult to keep track of threads when you begin to paste your poetry into the discussion. It is borderline "disruption". People do not know half the time if you are insulting them or if you are aware of what the topic is about. Try and keep the poetry to a minimum.
dear ANDALUS this poem will answer about tri-nity and four-nity and five-nity in great detail please bear with me
with the first post i mentioned trin-ity in nature
with second post i mentioned four-nity in creation
for this just one poem i went through at-least 10000 books to collect the data
Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : Between mud meat and wood A man in flesh declares i am above rest in prostration's SAJUD he speaks to god lying sitting standing and at work He creates sign of sajud and stigmata mark Oh BE AQL look at a dog Have seen him doing Yog or Jog When lying he is rolling reeling When sitting he is resting and crawling When standing he run jump and bark But you will never see him in prostration to achieve the Sajud mark It is the station of FITRATH NAFS AQL AND RUH That's distinguish what is what and who is who Don't you see the way of mud It too has fire air and watery blood But essence that predominates his character is his Fitrathullah clay It doesn't have any desire to run and play Then life that evolved is Nafsi vegetation Yet it doesn't have any desire for psychiatric session It too was created with earth water fire and air Yet only thing they desire is theirs botanical heir Yet they protect not theirs progeny at sight of stranger Have seen burning forest where stationary tree running away from danger Who do you see fight to kill theirs sibling in love and war Who else apart from animal Sansar Who uses theirs mind OH BE AQL In Mud Wood and Animal Who else but animal crane Dies for beloved in separation pain But have seen any silent giraffe or laughing hyena Doing the meditation by Yogic Ashana This are quality's of men what sets them apart from rest of the creation You see OH BE AQL it is not the Bodi tree but it is the Buddha who does the meditation All animal have mind but it is the men who holds the RUH All animal makes the migration but it is the men who wears the shoe Have seen any monkey going for Nike or spider in need of a needle No OH BE AQL but it is only the men who can web just with binding words the most enticing riddle
from SWEETSWORDS 108 [ The Elemental Setting of Four Foe ]
------------- awal
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 8:03am
poga wrote:
Warriorofelyon wrote:
Thanks for all the links!!!!
No I do not know Arabic....well, I do know a little but not enough to say I know Arabic...
Would anyone be willing to answer the following questions?
1. Why do you personally reject the notion of the triune God?
2. How do you understand the concept of the Trinity? That is how would you describe it?
|
in ISLAM there only one singular ALLAH
but there is trinity in nature
for the self
the surrounding
and the sustainer who sustains the self and the surroundings
here is example
SWEETSWORDS 35 [ Epistemological model of ILM ]
3 -2 -1 - 1 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 8
BISMILLAH
Poga Humayun Dundiwala
Setting is thus Man mineral and grass From this ignorant trinity Outcome the informative duality The divinity of minus and plus Beyond that the occult octagonal The force that sets three stages of fitrath nafs and aql Is the ilm of Illuminati ALLAH L a illa ha illel la MUHAMMAD ur rasul ALLAH
Setting is this Dark ignorance stark information and illuminating ignis Then further on With ignition of neuron The sermon is this A single god in octagonal bliss
Poga Say's in a foolington maze
Let me present Science of stages and signs of veils Sharriatic messengers and marrifatic mail MUHAMMADAN reality and truth of ALLAH Foundation less Sufi and fundamental Mullah Let me present MUHAMMADAN reality and theory of everything Sharriatic hidden cube and marrifatic manifest ring MUHAMMADAN reality and fact of Allah La illa ha illel la MUHAMMAD ur rasul ALLAH
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Tri Kaal Tri Netra Say's oh my fourth functional eye The Holy ISLAMIC Tribune is the AL HAQQ But the Christian Trinity is the lie The Holy ISLAMIC TRIBUNE Is the uncreated ALLAH the created PEN writing the vibrational QUN FA YA QUN It is as simple as the doctor and the pen and the tablet It is as simple as the chicken and the egg and the omelet But the horrendous Trinity of the Christian Nasara Where God comes not only to the youthful Mary but also to the old haggard Sara NAU JU BILLAH MIN ZAALIK Tri Kaal Tri Netra Say's there is nothing Pure and Holy in the Christan Tribune apart from the horrendous polluted SHIRK
Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : The Ajanana Avidya The Ne science Laduni The ilm e marrifa the knowledge Al Bateni Mr Greenman Gupta ibn chlorophyll Al Khidr's karma and Brahma's will Now you know oh BE AQL BARZAKH'S field and his FAL Now you know THE TRI KAL TRI NETRA the The three dimensional TRISMEGUSTUS HERMETICAL
from SWEETSWORDS 106 [ Sonorous Sigh ]
------------- awal
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 8:29am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
1. Why do you personally reject the notion of the triune God?
God has certain attributes which if true means that he will never behave in a certain way even though it is within his power to do so.
We know He is the merciful the forgiver but at the same time he is the Just and the Punisher, so if he is merciful and the forgiver of sins does that mean he will now forgive every criminal there sins, becouse to not do so would now imply that in effect he is not being the merciful or the fogiving.
The correct perspective to understand this matter is to see that he is the merciful and the forgiver but at the same time he is the just and the punisher he isnt one or the other but all at the same time at all times. He forgives people there sins but punishes those he decides to punish in his wisdom [as he is the wise] and his knowledge [as he is the knowledgeable all knowing] and the just [so those he decides to punish he does so justly].
So when you look at his attributes he isnt one OR the other but all at the same time. http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3882&PN=4 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3882& ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;PN=4
From his atributes we know he is The Sovereign, The Holy, The Flawless
just to name a few for the purpose of this reply.
Now the trinity consists of three things, God the Holy spirit and Jesus. According to the king james Bible God Beget a son with marry the holy mother through the holy spirit.
God sacrificed his only son in order to forgive the sins of man.
jesus walked this earth as a normal human being would.
Regarding the above points these acts go against his attribute and nature of being The Sovereign [the quality of being independent of all existing
things] he was not in need of manifesting himself in this world by virtue of child labor and birth he was not limited by the way in which he forgave sins i.e he was not in Need of a sacrifice he is independent of needing anything he acts based upon knowledge, wisdom and understanding as having a need means being subservient and reliant on whatever fulfills that need, all of which contradict the following attributes The Flawless and The Holy.
We know Allah can do what ever he likes, if he so chose he could manifest himself in a triune state and choose to only forgive our sins after sacrificing himself on the cross. If the last two attributes where true of him i.e his having been The Flawless [Allah's quality of lacking all imperfection or any
trace of deficiency.] and The Holy [Allah's quality of being above every description of
which human perception can perceive.] then this is not an act he would choose to do.
Why dont we ever say God [authubillah] is a murderer or he tortures people or he steals from them tricks them, manipulates them and is sadistic....Its becouse we know he possesses the noblest of Qualities which declare him above such behavior. Similarly these attribute tell us the he will never decide to manifest himself in a triune state by way of child labor and walk on this earth as humans do with all there weaknesses and imperfections which are clearly stated in the bible and can not be attributed to God in his perfectness or Crucify himself so he could forgive our sins.
Al-`Al�: The Highest
"Glorify the name of your Lord the Highest (Al-`Al�)" (87:1).
The Highest is that quality above which there is no rank. All the
other ranks are inferior to the Highest. The Highest refers to height.
Height refers to the concept of elevation. Elevation is the opposite of
lowness. It may be conceived in terms of perceptible height or level or
in terms of some sort of rational order. Everything that can be
described as being "above" in respect of space possesses spatial
highness and everything that can be described as being "above" in terms
of rank may be said to have a highness exceeding all others.
The idea of the trinity contradicts Gods very attributes and as br Andalus has pointed out since it is all a matter of inteprating certain verses in the bible as there is no clear declaration of the trinity ever existing then men have fallen far short of understanding God's perfectness, uniqueness, Greatness, Majesty and exaltedness and themselves have attributed weakness and imperfection to him.
Sura Al Falaq [112] in the Quran affirms this.
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him.
If you notice he has indicated which attributes we should think about to understand why he will never decide to manifest himself in a triune state.
2. How do you understand the concept of the Trinity? That is how would you describe it?
The trinity as i understand it is the manifestation of God in three seperate beings at the same time all interacting with one another as if independent from each other but in reality they are not.
Two of these beings jesus and the holy siprit where God and limited at the same time, a contradiction in terms.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 12:55pm
Warriorofelyon wrote:
Hello,
I am writing a Master's thesis discussing the Islamic view of God. This includes a discussion of the Christian understanding of the Trinity compared to how Muslim theologians understand it. I would like to be as fair and accurate as possible.
Would anyone have any suggestions regarding Islamic texts that could be used the represent the Asharite theological school?
Thanks!
|
Dear warriorofelyon how do you rate my data i hope you find them useful
------------- awal
|
Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 28 February 2008 at 5:34pm
Thanks everyone! I Found your information/objections quite helpful!
I would say that there still seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding regarding what the Trinity is...etc...
I realize this forum is not designed for debate and therefore I would not violate the rules nor disrespect this community by attempting to reply to any statements. With that said, if anyone would like to discuss further what I embrace the notion of a triune God please feel free to contact me.
Also, if you would be willing to read some of my tracing of history regarding trinitarian theology and my philosophical description of the trinity please feel free to contact me as well.
My e-mail is [email protected]
ONE LAST QUESTION...
I am attempting to show some of the similarities between the Allah of the Qur'an and the Allah (in the Arabic Christian sense) of the bible.
So would you all say it is fair to say...based upon the 99 beautiful names...
That just like the God of the bible...Allah is...
LOVE HOLY MERCIFUL COMPASSIONATE...
The God of the Bible is literally describe as ontologically LOVE...
Would it be fair to describe Allah the same way??
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 28 February 2008 at 6:33pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
You are welcome to post what ever you like in the forum_topics.asp?FID=10" target="_self - Islamic Interfaith Dialogue It
is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We
encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various
topics including religious tolerance.
as long as it remains a discussion and doesn't simply turn into an evangelical rant you should be fine.
We cant say Allah IS love, it is an emotion not a living thing.
Love is a thing Allah chose to feel for us it doesnt dominate his personality or cloud his judgment the same way it does for us becouse we lack self control he doesnt. So saying love is his nature [as i understood the word ontologically] is not a correct way of describing him as it is tantamount to saying he loves attachment itself which is ascribing imperfection to him as he is not in need of anything.
You cant ascribe human Qualities to god the same way as you would to a person, the way we love is not the same way he loves. You can say he "loves" in a general sence but you have to remove all forms of weakness, reliance and imperfection from your thought to try to understand the way HE loves.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 28 February 2008 at 6:55pm
Fair enough.
So would you say Allah has always "loved".....
I guess what I mean....
As I understand Jehovah... His love is greater than I can understand...just as you have described Allah...
I guess where my confusion comes in is this...If Allah is not "Love" in his essence....I mean...If love does not describe him per se....
But instead love is a "thing" chose to "feel"... here is my question...
IF love is a thing did Allah create it? If he is beyond comparison or weakness in reference to his creation...would not "feeling" be a weakness? Ontological love would be eternal love and therefore outside the realm of "feeling" because it is literally who Allah is....
I guess I am trying to wrap my head around that...
Because if I understand Tawhid correctly...perhaps I do not... Then how could Allah who is absolutely "one" take upon himself any "thing" or attribute that is not eternally who he is?
I am DEFINETLY not setting up a debate or argument with what I have said...I am honestly trying to wrap my mind around it...I want to make sure I fairly represent Muslims in my thesis...
To often evangelicals make assumptions regarding Muslims that are not true!
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 12:03am
Warriorofelyon wrote
LOVE HOLY MERCIFUL COMPASSIONATE...
yes ALLAH is all that and more
ALLAH is FEAR
ALLAH is PUNISHER
ALLAH is AVENGER
ALLAH is DESTROYER
why do we need to go to you to learn your FABRICATION of trinity
are we suffocating with the TRUTH
if you have any evidence what can stand on solid science bring it hare on this forum on this thread
if you want us to visit you
first say are you men or woman and how much you charge for hour for you service and what is it you provide
------------- awal
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Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 12:11am
hey poga,
I'm not quite sure what you are saying...
Are you saying that Allah is eternally loving..and eternally those attributes that you listed?
I will disregard your jabs...As my goal here is not to debate...but to gain an understanding...
But if you are posting to respond to what I asked....then please respond to the entire post and my question regarding things and feelings...
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 12:31am
Warriorofelyon wrote:
hey poga,
I'm not quite sure what you are saying...
Are you saying that Allah is eternally loving..and eternally those attributes that you listed?
I will disregard your jabs...As my goal here is not to debate...but to gain an understanding...
But if you are posting to respond to what I asked....then please respond to the entire post and my question regarding things and feelings...
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of course ALLAH is eternal so are all his attribute there is nothing temporary about ALLAH
------------- awal
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Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 6:48am
So....just like the God of the Bible then...He is Love....eternally..correct?
Sorry....the imagery of love is something I think is vital....
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 7:23am
Warriorofelyon wrote:
So....just like the God of the Bible then...He is Love....eternally..correct?
Sorry....the imagery of love is something I think is vital....
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imagery of love in BIBLE is vital because BIBLE is pornography
imagine god and Mary
or god and Sara
in AL QURAN no imagination is needed and yet it is very vital like guiding voice of ALLAH and lost humanity
------------- awal
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Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 7:39am
poga wrote:
Warriorofelyon wrote:
So....just like the God of the Bible then...He is Love....eternally..correct?
Sorry....the imagery of love is something I think is vital....
|
imagery of love in BIBLE is vital because BIBLE is pornography
imagine god and Mary
or god and Sara
in AL QURAN no imagination is needed and yet it is very vital like guiding voice of ALLAH and lost humanity
|
1. If you are referencing "beget" as pornography...then you are mistaken my friend. "Beget" is NOT the accurate translation of the Greek work Monogenes' which means one of a kind or unique. It has NOTHING to do with biological paternity...
2. You still have not answered my question poga.... Would this mean that Allah is love much like the Bible calls Jehovah love... Since his attributes are eternal...love would "describe" him to some degree...By that I mean he did not "love" after he created man but because his "love" is eternal he is eternally a "loving" God?
Does that make sense?
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 8:52am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
So would you say Allah has always "loved".....
No, before Allah created anything what was there to love. Love needs an object and unlike Humans who can love for no reason at all [not saying all love is like that] Allah loves for a reason he can choose to love and not to love.
As I understand Jehovah... His love is greater than I can understand...just as you have described Allah...
Jehovah and Allah are different names for the same God, similarly to how you would say the God of the christians is the same God as the jews even though you would consider the jewish understand of god, a monothiestic one like ours, to be different than yours.
Men think differently than women for various reasons such as our physical make up [estrogen and testosterone], our upbringing what we like or feel comfertable with [men cars, women family] basically our minds work differently becouse we are different.
Allah does not think the way men or women do becouse his perspective and view of creation and humans is diferent from ours imagine being consiously aware of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of creatuers all at the same time now imagine being able to see history or time not in a chronological order as we do day after day, month after month, year after year but every day in history, every year in history, decade, centruty, millenium every moment in time all at the same time for all of creation and what is in it.
from this alone we know we are not dealing with something we can ever attribute any likeness to, our scholars say his creation contains the lightest possible fingerprint of likeness to Allah but that is all.
He has allowed us to love [among other things] so we know him but our love is not like his love.
He can love a person wholy or something about a person he is in absolute control which is in stark contrast to
how humans love. When we love, for us to increase the strength of that
love or connection we let go of our selfs and what we know and everything about us, we become blind to
the object of our love we stop seeing faults in the person and
everything they touch is magic [as the song says] but the persons faults in
reality are there becouse after all we are human. So if you want to
know how Allah loves understand what love is and take away all forms of
weakness and imperfection from it and you will begin to understand.
I guess where my confusion comes in is this...If Allah is not "Love" in his essence....I mean...If love does not describe him per se....
Love does not describe anything, can you think of a single example? You can love strongly and place your love for something above certain things which would normaly cause a person not to love but no thing Is love.
But instead love is a "thing" chose to "feel"... here is my question...
IF love is a thing did Allah create it?
No he did not create it, i used the word thing simply to seperate it from Allahs essance not to imply it is created or has form.
For humans love has a physical or rather chemical aspect [not saying love is simply a chemical reaction but part of it is] so i suppose that part for us is created but the spiritual aspect in which you are looked on favourably, tolerated more, forgiven more easily, your weaknesses are looked pased, your company is enjoyed and sought after as well as other things that is not created becouse to say it is created is to say allahs knowledge is not complete and it increases.
He has knowledge of all things, he does not change, he does not increase in anything or decrease in anything.
A man came to the prophet and said: "O Messenger of Allah, direct me to an
act which, if I do it, [will cause] Allah to love me and people to love
me." He said: "Renounce the world and Allah will love you, and renounce what
people possess and people will love you."
If a person can Gain Allahs love then we know from this it is something He decides to give he doesnt fall in love.
here is another example indicating that a person draws near step by step until he reaches a point where allah decides to love him.
Allah the Almighty has said: "Who soever shows enmity to a friend of Mine, I
shall be at war with him. My servant does not draw near to Me with anything
more loved by Me than the religious duties I have imposed upon him, and
My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I
shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his
seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his foot
with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely
give it to him and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him
it."
Another good example,
If Allah has loved a servant [of His] He calls Gabriel (on whom be peace) and says: I love So-and-so, therefore love him. He (the Prophet pbuh) said: So Gabriel loves him. Then he (Gabriel) calls out in heaven, saying: Allah loves So-and-so, therefore love him. And the inhabitants of heaven love him. He (the Prophet pbuh) said: Then acceptance is established for him on earth. And if Allah has abhorred a servant [of His], He calls Gabriel and says: I abhor So-and-so, therefore abhor him. So Gabriel abhors him. Then Gabriel calls out to the inhabitants of heaven: Allah abhors So-and-so, therefore abhor him. He (the Prophet pbuh) said: So they abhor him, and abhorrence is established for him on earth.
he finds aceptance with his lord, notice how the angels behave they choose to love who allah loves and choose to adhore whom allah adhores, the rationale may seem cold but it should only indicate absolute control becouse once love is established for someone those beutifull qualities that we know about love are there as well, it is very apparant in the second hadith i quoted above "When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his
seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his foot
with which he walks"
Not many things are described as beutifully as this, the closness between Allah and the one he loves.
If he is beyond comparison or weakness in reference to his creation...would not "feeling" be a weakness?
No becouse you automatically associate feeling with weakness and moral coruption i.e a person will do anything for there loved ones even kill for example. People display self control to differing degrees some people will not kill or steal or do anything illegal but others would. Imagine "feeling" without need as need for that feeling and lack of control will drive you to certain things, so not being in need removes the element of weakness.
Ontological love would be eternal love and therefore outside the realm of "feeling" because it is literally who Allah is....
Since love needs an object [humans] and that object is not eternal but created how can Ontological love exist. once the object was created then you can choose to love it otherwise who is eternally being loved? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/love - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/love
notice how in all these examples there is an object being loved.
if that doesnt make sence you may have to clarify what you mean by ontological love its a new term to me.
Because if I understand Tawhid correctly...perhaps I do not... Then how could Allah who is absolutely "one" take upon himself any "thing" or attribute that is not eternally who he is?
love is not a thing but is more in line with being an action. Also what do you mean by take upon himself, Allah also takes many other actions creation itself was an action he decided to do see my example above of allah "deciding" to love someone when at one point in time he didnt love them.
To often evangelicals make assumptions regarding Muslims that are not true!
that's why there called evangelicans becouse they are evangelical
You will have to excuse Poga he is eccentric to say the least.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 9:20am
I appreciate your well thought out response.
That helps...
I guess I am still not quite grasping a few concepts...
I realize Allah does not take upon himself anything...because as you have stated he does not change...
So after reading what you have said here is my question...
Do the 99 beautiful names, including those referencing the Love of Allah, describe who Allah is?
If love is not created...that is the spiritual aspect of love...(I agree by the way)...then love is eternal in that sense is it not? So I guess what I am asking is this...prior to creation could Allah be described as loving or compassionate...etc...from the 99 names...or are they contingent upon the existence of the created order?
By ontological love I mean this...
As understand Jehovah in the bible, He is love...that is to say one could describe His essence with the word Love because all love flows from Him. Without Him love would not exist...etc...so in His being (ontology) there is love...not in some composite sense...
Also, if Allah has chosen to love us...or those who follow him... Then my question is this...
In order for him to love without taking something new upon himself would not love need to be to some degree...part of who he is? If not, then by "choosing" to love us, would he not be changing his mind? Or choosing to indulge in something foreign to him? Taking on a new aspect or relation not previously existing in his nature?
Part of my thinking I believe revolves around the idea of Allah "feeling." You "feel" something based stimuli outside yourself. So if Allah is not changed by his creation would it be better for me to understand his "feeling" as...this...He is by definition the necessary being of love...therefore, when he loves...he is not making a choice to "feel" something based upon anything outside himself...but rather in his sovereign righteousness he is sharing what he already has "love" with his creation?
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 10:38am
Warriorofelyon wrote:
poga wrote:
Warriorofelyon wrote:
So....just like the God of the Bible then...He is Love....eternally..correct?
Sorry....the imagery of love is something I think is vital....
|
imagery of love in BIBLE is vital because BIBLE is pornography
imagine god and Mary
or god and Sara
in AL QURAN no imagination is needed and yet it is very vital like guiding voice of ALLAH and lost humanity
|
1. If you are referencing "beget" as pornography...then you are mistaken my friend. "Beget" is NOT the accurate translation of the Greek work Monogenes' which means one of a kind or unique. It has NOTHING to do with biological paternity...
2. You still have not answered my question poga.... Would this mean that Allah is love much like the Bible calls Jehovah love... Since his attributes are eternal...love would "describe" him to some degree...By that I mean he did not "love" after he created man but because his "love" is eternal he is eternally a "loving" God?
Does that make sense?
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if want linguist go to DEAF and DUMB and learn about SANSKRIT OM
you say bore or beget or what ever we take your FALSE meaning that you say Jesus is son of GOD
we say the TRUTH there is only one ALLAH without father mother son or daughter and sister and brothers
love is emotion as like hate
in love we like the lovely feeling because it feels good
in hate we abhor this because it feels bad
so if ALLAH is love so he will hate what is not love
if so then if we do very hate filled acts then through this action we can hurt ALLAH'S feeling
and if we can hurt someone then maybe we can hurt him so much that we can KILL him
no this all lie god is all love is the preaching of Christian monastic mice's
and through them it came in to ISLAM by the Sufiswines
As you say you want to do MASTERS but i say first learn to be STUDENT
And Know ALLAH is not LOVE nor ALLAH is HATE but ALLAH is he created all emotions
i also like to take this opportunity to share with you mentioning name of my beloved
here it is bellow
The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my tear and laughter fear and depression The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my passion and my affection
The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my bad and good My Loving AL WADUD my prayer and despair my image and impression My loving AL WADUD my loving mood My sensibility and sensation
The loving AL WADUD my beloved Mahmud my bad and good My even and odd my beloved my MUHAMMAD Sallel la hu alahi wa sallim Blessed is my beloved he is the RAHMAT of RAHMANUR RAHIM
from SWEETSWORDS 32 [ Monad 11 ]
------------- awal
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 10:53am
dear RAMI you said
IF love is a thing did Allah create it?
No he did not create it, i used the word thing simply to seperate it from Allahs essance not to imply it is created or has form.
Fitrath Nafs Aql and Ruh
this are all created essence
love and hate develops from NAFS
this are emotions ALLAH created for ADAM and JINN
Angels are free from emotions
all emotions are natural conditions of nature
ALLAH is free from all conditions he creates conditions and degree for all his creations
it is better for all of us if we have to place any attribute on ALLAH
if we are not 100% sure then just say i do not know and thats it
who say we have to know everything
------------- awal
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Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 12:29pm
poga wrote:
Warriorofelyon wrote:
poga wrote:
Warriorofelyon wrote:
So....just like the God of the Bible then...He is Love....eternally..correct?
Sorry....the imagery of love is something I think is vital....
|
imagery of love in BIBLE is vital because BIBLE is pornography
imagine god and Mary
or god and Sara
in AL QURAN no imagination is needed and yet it is very vital like guiding voice of ALLAH and lost humanity
|
1. If you are referencing "beget" as pornography...then you are mistaken my friend. "Beget" is NOT the accurate translation of the Greek work Monogenes' which means one of a kind or unique. It has NOTHING to do with biological paternity...
2. You still have not answered my question poga.... Would this mean that Allah is love much like the Bible calls Jehovah love... Since his attributes are eternal...love would "describe" him to some degree...By that I mean he did not "love" after he created man but because his "love" is eternal he is eternally a "loving" God?
Does that make sense?
|
if want linguist go to DEAF and DUMB and learn about SANSKRIT OM
you say bore or beget or what ever we take your FALSE meaning that you say Jesus is son of GOD
we say the TRUTH there is only one ALLAH without father mother son or daughter and sister and brothers
love is emotion as like hate
in love we like the lovely feeling because it feels good
in hate we abhor this because it feels bad
so if ALLAH is love so he will hate what is not love
if so then if we do very hate filled acts then through this action we can hurt ALLAH'S feeling
and if we can hurt someone then maybe we can hurt him so much that we can KILL him
no this all lie god is all love is the preaching of Christian monastic mice's
and through them it came in to ISLAM by the Sufiswines
As you say you want to do MASTERS but i say first learn to be STUDENT
And Know ALLAH is not LOVE nor ALLAH is HATE but ALLAH is he created all emotions
i also like to take this opportunity to share with you mentioning name of my beloved
here it is bellow
The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my tear and laughter fear and depression The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my passion and my affection
The loving AL WADUD my loving mood my bad and good My Loving AL WADUD my prayer and despair my image and impression My loving AL WADUD my loving mood My sensibility and sensation
The loving AL WADUD my beloved Mahmud my bad and good My even and odd my beloved my MUHAMMAD Sallel la hu alahi wa sallim Blessed is my beloved he is the RAHMAT of RAHMANUR RAHIM
from SWEETSWORDS 32 [ Monad 11 ] |
Hey Poga,
I appreciate your posts....
Although I am still not sure where you are going...
Earlier you stated that love it eternal in Allah...
Now you say it is created and Allah engages in it...
Which is it?
I do not know of anyone within Christian orthodoxy that preaches that God is ALL love... The Bible clearly states that He is the NECESSARY being from which love originates...but that He also punishes...etc...
Are you saying Allah's feelings are influenced by the created order?
Are you now saying your previous statement is wrong about love being eternal and that you now believe it is created?
If it is created are you saying that Allah chooses to engage this created emotion or take it upon himself?
I'm confused...
Also...what do you mean about Sanskrit?
I'm not sure what you are accusing me of regarding linguistic roots for "beget"....monogenes does not have anything to do with paternity...
We do NOT believe that Jehovah physically father JEsus....
Son is the title of His relation status in the Godhead. It does not describe biological paternity.
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 2:17pm
dear
Warriorofelyon
you believe creator and the creation are unified
we believe they are separate
ALLAH Say's he is wise so is his wisdom is created or uncreated
it is uncreated because it is part of him
similarly ALLAH in order to show his love he created love within the creation
love within the creation is created feeling of the creature
you say can we influence feelings of ALLAH
as i said on above post we by love or hate we cannot influence ALLAH
but ALLAH is the RAHMANUR RAHIM during our suffering we cry to ALLAH through the wisdom he taught us through his prophets so we may receive his compassion
but as we are the creation we also have wisdom we also have love and emotion
does this makes us part of the creator
no because our love and emotion are within the bound of the creation
we from the creation now cannot say because ALLAH is love ALLAH is AQL therefore love and knowledge are ALLAH
this are ALLAH'S quality
Like diamond with glitter the glitter is the quality of diamond but is not the diamond
as for SANSKRIT it is the language of aryans if you want learn more about beget or begotten or what ever go to them |
------------- awal
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 7:21pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
Fitrath Nafs Aql and Ruh
this are all created essence we are talking about things that both Humans and Allah share not things that are simply applicable to humans alone. im assuming by Aql you mean mind or brain and not intelligence.
love and hate develops from NAFS for HUMANS they do yes but not all love does. to say all love is from the ego [nafs] is ignorant is love for allah from the nafs?.
this are emotions ALLAH created for ADAM and JINN No since these emotions as allah knows them do not simply apply to humans and Jinn they apply to all of creation and we are the last to be created not the first, Allah certainly loves his Angels and he certainly loves creation or he would not have created it.
Angels are free from emotions. And i just Quoted 3 hadith Qudsi saying allah loves and angels love. You are forgetting the whole point of my argument, the WHOLE point of my post is to say Allah loves diferently than humans do and he has no weakness or imperfection so how on earth can you sit there and and say no there is only one kind of love, human, and that is it.
all emotions are natural conditions of nature. Not when they apply to Allah and not according to Islam, "The hearts of the believers are between the two fingers of Allah he turns them which ever way he likes".
ALLAH is free from all conditions he creates conditions and degree for all his creations have you not understood a word i have said?
it is better for all of us if we have to place any attribute on ALLAH
if we are not 100% sure then just say i do not know and thats it
who say we have to know everything And you are 100% certain about what you just said? subhanahllah.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 8:14pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
Do the 99 beautiful names, including those referencing the Love of Allah, describe who Allah is?
Yes they do that is why they where revealed to us, a better translation would the 99 attributes of allah and these are just the main ones they are not limited to 99 we know of a lot more. They describe his being or nature or essence if you like and help us understand how he may possible act towards us.
If love is not created...that is the spiritual aspect of love...(I agree by the way)...then love is eternal in that sense is it not?
as an action then yes, man himself is created he has a beginning and an end but the knowledge about how to create man is eternal since allahs knowledge does not increase or decrease....does that make sense its a very tricky subject.
So love would have existed with Allah but the act could not have been carried out until the object of that love was created.
So I guess what I am asking is this...prior to creation could Allah be described as loving or compassionate...etc...from the 99 names...or are they contingent upon the existence of the created order?
Yes if what you mean by love and compassion is righteousness and morality, since he is Al-`Al�: The Highest and this is in terms of moral perfection, he wasnt at one point Evil then decided to be Good he was always morally superior al Ali the highest.
regarding the explanation of al Ali in terms of rank, rank is referring to moral excellence or perfection as no other rank counts with allah. Our closenesses to Allah is Dependant upon our moral perfection in relation to his other creations. Angels have a higher rank than all of creation except for humans [in general] and this is in terms of piousness.
Otherwise what is there to Love or be compassionate towards if creation is not created yet, you seem to be asking the same question as before but in a different way. It seems you are trying imagine him in terms of a feeling or emotion he isn't a ball of love that exists
There is reason and cause.
As understand Jehovah in the bible, He is love...that is to say one could describe His essence with the word Love
But in reality what is meant here is moral perfection and beauty this is what it is eluding to otherwise what is the significance of simply loving he didn't create creation so he would have something to love he is not in need.
maybe something is being lost in translation or the context is missing?
because all love flows from Him.
i don't think this is correct as some people love some very twisted things, i think you have to qualify that statement such as pure love or righteous love that differentiates it from the twisted things people tend to love.
Without Him love would not exist...etc...so in His being (ontology) there is love...not in some composite sense...
i think love here is also synonymous with other qualities that give a sense of the type of love or the aim or objective of that love. "Allah is beautiful and loves beautiful things" [saying from the Quran i think]that has a wide range of meaning from the beauty of nature to moral beauty in our actions self sacrifice etc i don't think there is love in and of itself otherwise you would simply be talking about an emotion a feeling and that is all.
No feeling can exist in and of itself, look at the nature of man he needs motivation to feel and if creation has the slightest bit of likeness to Allah then we know from this, feeling [regardless of what type] needs a reason to be felt.
In order for him to love without taking something new upon himself would not love need to be to some degree...part of who he is? If not, then by "choosing" to love us, would he not be changing his mind? Or choosing to indulge in something foreign to him? Taking on a new aspect or relation not previously existing in his nature?
I understand what you are getting at since him deciding to love doesn't that change his nature?
I would say no because his nature is his qualities [99 attributes] him applying his qualities to creation is not changing his nature but deciding to act upon those Qualities they are two seperate things, Nature/being/essence/ontology and action.
Part of my thinking I believe revolves around the idea of Allah "feeling." You "feel" something based stimuli outside yourself. So if Allah is not changed by his creation would it be better for me to understand his "feeling" as...this...He is by definition the necessary being of love...therefore, when he loves...he is not making a choice to "feel" something based upon anything outside himself...but rather in his sovereign righteousness he is sharing what he already has "love" with his creation?
You are going back to assuming the way he feels is the same way as we do, allah is the source of love as you said, he is also the source of mercy, Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem, in the name of Allah the most gracious the source of mercy.
How is he the source of these things in what way does he pour it down on us like rain or bring it down on us like a cloud. How it is for us and occurs in Us is not the same for him its just a small likeness nothing more.
i am out of time at the moment so insha allah we will have to continue the discussion another time.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 9:14pm
poga wrote:
dear
Warriorofelyon
you believe creator and the creation are unified
we believe they are separate
ALLAH Say's he is wise so is his wisdom is created or uncreated
it is uncreated because it is part of him
similarly ALLAH in order to show his love he created love within the creation
love within the creation is created feeling of the creature
you say can we influence feelings of ALLAH
as i said on above post we by love or hate we cannot influence ALLAH
but ALLAH is the RAHMANUR RAHIM during our suffering we cry to ALLAH through the wisdom he taught us through his prophets so we may receive his compassion
but as we are the creation we also have wisdom we also have love and emotion
does this makes us part of the creator
no because our love and emotion are within the bound of the creation
we from the creation now cannot say because ALLAH is love ALLAH is AQL therefore love and knowledge are ALLAH
this are ALLAH'S quality
Like diamond with glitter the glitter is the quality of diamond but is not the diamond
as for SANSKRIT it is the language of aryans if you want learn more about beget or begotten or what ever go to them |
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Poga,
I DO NOT believe the Creator and creation are unified....what makes you think this?
I realize what Sanskrit is... I have spent a great deal of time reading through the Vedas...Bahgvadgita...etc... However...it would be ENTIRELY foolish to look to SANSKRIT to INTERPET GREEK!!! The concepts of beget are RADICALLY different in the two cultural contexts. This would be like studying Italian in order to "better" understand a Ford pickup owners manual in english...it would make no sense...
Also, JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT BEGOTTEN!! That is in any paternal sense...THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE TEXT THAT STATES THAT HE WAS IN SCRIPTURE...
So, in the name of Academic honesty please DO NOT accuse me of this anymore unless you have some proof that orthodox Christians believe such a doctrine...
That means you would need to find a proposition such as that within out primary texts.
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Posted By: Warriorofelyon
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 9:16pm
rami wrote:
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
Do the 99 beautiful names, including those referencing the Love of Allah, describe who Allah is?
Yes they do that is why they where revealed to us, a better translation would the 99 attributes of allah and these are just the main ones they are not limited to 99 we know of a lot more. They describe his being or nature or essence if you like and help us understand how he may possible act towards us.
If love is not created...that is the spiritual aspect of love...(I agree by the way)...then love is eternal in that sense is it not?
as an action then yes, man himself is created he has a beginning and an end but the knowledge about how to create man is eternal since allahs knowledge does not increase or decrease....does that make sense its a very tricky subject.
So love would have existed with Allah but the act could not have been carried out until the object of that love was created.
So I guess what I am asking is this...prior to creation could Allah be described as loving or compassionate...etc...from the 99 names...or are they contingent upon the existence of the created order?
Yes if what you mean by love and compassion is righteousness and morality, since he is Al-`Al�: The Highest and this is in terms of moral perfection, he wasnt at one point Evil then decided to be Good he was always morally superior al Ali the highest.
regarding the explanation of al Ali in terms of rank, rank is referring to moral excellence or perfection as no other rank counts with allah. Our closenesses to Allah is Dependant upon our moral perfection in relation to his other creations. Angels have a higher rank than all of creation except for humans [in general] and this is in terms of piousness.
Otherwise what is there to Love or be compassionate towards if creation is not created yet, you seem to be asking the same question as before but in a different way. It seems you are trying imagine him in terms of a feeling or emotion he isn't a ball of love that exists
There is reason and cause.
As understand Jehovah in the bible, He is love...that is to say one could describe His essence with the word Love
But in reality what is meant here is moral perfection and beauty this is what it is eluding to otherwise what is the significance of simply loving he didn't create creation so he would have something to love he is not in need.
maybe something is being lost in translation or the context is missing?
because all love flows from Him.
i don't think this is correct as some people love some very twisted things, i think you have to qualify that statement such as pure love or righteous love that differentiates it from the twisted things people tend to love.
Without Him love would not exist...etc...so in His being (ontology) there is love...not in some composite sense...
i think love here is also synonymous with other qualities that give a sense of the type of love or the aim or objective of that love. "Allah is beautiful and loves beautiful things" [saying from the Quran i think]that has a wide range of meaning from the beauty of nature to moral beauty in our actions self sacrifice etc i don't think there is love in and of itself otherwise you would simply be talking about an emotion a feeling and that is all.
No feeling can exist in and of itself, look at the nature of man he needs motivation to feel and if creation has the slightest bit of likeness to Allah then we know from this, feeling [regardless of what type] needs a reason to be felt.
In order for him to love without taking something new upon himself would not love need to be to some degree...part of who he is? If not, then by "choosing" to love us, would he not be changing his mind? Or choosing to indulge in something foreign to him? Taking on a new aspect or relation not previously existing in his nature?
I understand what you are getting at since him deciding to love doesn't that change his nature?
I would say no because his nature is his qualities [99 attributes] him applying his qualities to creation is not changing his nature but deciding to act upon those Qualities they are two seperate things, Nature/being/essence/ontology and action.
Part of my thinking I believe revolves around the idea of Allah "feeling." You "feel" something based stimuli outside yourself. So if Allah is not changed by his creation would it be better for me to understand his "feeling" as...this...He is by definition the necessary being of love...therefore, when he loves...he is not making a choice to "feel" something based upon anything outside himself...but rather in his sovereign righteousness he is sharing what he already has "love" with his creation?
You are going back to assuming the way he feels is the same way as we do, allah is the source of love as you said, he is also the source of mercy, Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem, in the name of Allah the most gracious the source of mercy.
How is he the source of these things in what way does he pour it down on us like rain or bring it down on us like a cloud. How it is for us and occurs in Us is not the same for him its just a small likeness nothing more.
i am out of time at the moment so insha allah we will have to continue the discussion another time.
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I think I am getting a much clearer picture of where you are coming from.
I myself am out of time and will probably be unable to reply to anything until Sunday.
I have enjoyed our discussion and I hope to resume it Sunday.
Thanks
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 10:58pm
warrior
before i answer any more of your question
i like to ask you one question
question is very simple please tell me what is the gender of love
also i like to let you know i lack any formal education therefore i struggle writing in prose because i lack the knowledge of grammar and punctuation marks
but here i was forced to write in prose and that was mistake from my part so from now on back to poetry
Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : To me Mathematics of love is dote on To you Mathematics of love is devotion To me love is kinship To you love is worship Between us river of love flows as watch as two embankment None of is lover here we are just two dead still strangers Fighting the common enemy the live flowing current
------------- awal
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 14 March 2008 at 10:31am
Warriorofelyon wrote:
Hello,
I am writing a Master's thesis discussing the Islamic view of God. This includes a discussion of the Christian understanding of the Trinity compared to how Muslim theologians understand it. I would like to be as fair and accurate as possible.
Would anyone have any suggestions regarding Islamic texts that could be used the represent the Asharite theological school?
Thanks!
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SWEETSWORDS 54 [ Episemological model of ILM ]
BISMILLAH
3 - 2 - 1 - 1 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 8
Poga Humayun Dundiwala
At the beginning ALLAH created a number Then expanded it to be the cubical chamber With weighted dark soul as its papyrus heart And NURANI ink as the mind to illuminate its glowing art
At the beginning ALLAH created a dot Then expanded it with lines to be the MAHABOT With its first dimensional seed and Second dimensional shoot And third dimensional branch he created one cubical botanical boot
At the beginning ALLAH created one hero masculine number Then divided it with his zero feminine member With theirs Alif eructed phallus phi and pi circular vaginal sea Waves was created as the sonar seed of every tree
Poga Say's in a Foolington Maze
At the beginning The self within this surrounding Asks who created me and the SANSAR And finds him self in the trinity of creature creation and the creator And from this trinity he chooses the path of informative duality between question and answer It is here in the dual Path of Tariqath The creature detaches him self from the creation and gains the creators Ilm E Marrifath And unifies him self with the final one And declares everything is GOD and be comes BE IMAN This is the stage of FANAFILLAH The cursed station where everything is ALLAH From there only thing that can save him is another one To ask what is the root cause of this creation Because the self knows and testifies he is not the only creation there are many like him And through process of opening the knots and binding the ties he find the rope of MUHAMMAD SALLEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLIM And ascends in the Fibonacci sequence of three two one one and two He understands this three dimensional Duniya and its octagonal RUH But this are only five out of eight Illuminating information From the Islamic Ilm E Marrifa without limitation
Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : The Setting of SANSAR The Self within the Surrounding Sustained by the Sustainer It as simple as the fuel and the flame And the by product of light what glows with its creators name It as simple as the provider and the provision and the consumer and the by product The four living and dead conduct for the single resurrect These are the reality of cosmic dust and aquatic muck It is the reality of the fabricated filthy Duniya and reality pure true HAQQ The four reality darkness and four of light The hot moving fire dying to be alive and bright Four of darkness the non emotional feel The silence darkness dead cold still It as simple as the Niche the Lamp and the Oil and the NOOR UN ALA NOOR It As simple as the pious feeder with pure food sustaining natural hungry consumer for the by product of filthy manure It as simple as the Niche represents the sustainer and the Lamp represents the diner The Oil is the pure food and the fire is the filthy shiner The filthy crystal the shining mud The by product of the NOOR and the WATER the MEN with the meat bone and blood It is here we learn the setting of the space and distance what came about by the light But this light came about by the olive TREE what is without distance and direction but with sound and sight It is the TREE what begets all time matter space and sound therefore it is the wooden KURSI The seven heaven the seven oceans all the Duniya are all branches of that cosmological TREE It is when we learn this TREE is the NIECHE what begets all east west all the distance and all the direction Yet even this KURSI is also within the ARSH the Divine THRONE And it is ALLAH who occupys the ARSH by his might Nothing can reach him Because KURSI is the PARDAH what captures all the direction all hearing all the sight Only the limit mortal can go to is up to the KURSI Therefore he who Say's he can reach ALLAH without KURSI he is committing the heresy Nothing can reach ALLAH without the KURSI but ALLAH can come to whom he will Because without ALLAH nothing can go anywhere all will remain standstill Therefore setting is thus The driver the passenger the patrol and the omnibus They drive on By the boat of armageddon Through the route of the MUHAMMADAN KURSI Toward the ALLAH'S THRONE They drive on Toward the front of pure burn offerings with the filth of backward radiation
------------- awal
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Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 11:16pm
is the word 'love' stated anywhere in the Quran?
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Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 11:21pm
i have a habit of asking questions then finding weblinks that can answer my question... sorry..
but here is a interesting weblink that provides the view of love in many ayats in the Quran
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Themes/love.htm - http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Themes/love.htm
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 24 March 2008 at 2:58am
Al Quran 3:31: (O prophet) Say (to the people), "If you love Allah then follow me. You will become the beloved of Allah. He will forgive you your sins..."
The above verse tells that God loves mankind. It is the love that solves problems, not the hatred.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 29 March 2008 at 11:05pm
layalee wrote:
i have a habit of asking questions then finding weblinks that can answer my question... sorry..
but here is a interesting weblink that provides the view of love in many ayats in the Quran
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Themes/love.htm - http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Themes/love.htm
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Layalee, very good, I have followed the link and found that information about love very useful. Specially, one name (attribute) of Allah is "Al-Wadud" the loving One. Thanks.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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