God and Allah
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11759
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Topic: God and Allah
Posted By: Anatolian
Subject: God and Allah
Date Posted: 07 February 2008 at 12:19am
Muslims believe both are same.
In a Christian perspective I see quite a bit of difference concerning the
message of both God (Judeo-Christian) and Islam's Allah.
Thoughts anyone?
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Replies:
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 February 2008 at 8:04am
Anatolian wrote:
Muslims believe both are same.
In a Christian perspective I see quite a bit of difference concerning the message of both God (Judeo-Christian) and Islam's Allah.
Thoughts anyone? |
First off clarify your critique on God and Allah besides stating that there is a difference. What difference are you referring? The words themselves or the idea of both? The attrbutes?
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Posted By: The Guided One
Date Posted: 07 February 2008 at 12:48pm
In the Name Of the Creator the Most Gracious the Most Merciful.
Peace, Blessings and Mercy of the Creator of all that exist be with you.
There is a Being whom there is none co-equal to Him, He alone Created all that exist the earth and the heavens and all that dwell in them. He has been sending Messengers and Prophets ever since the Creation of Humankind His common name which no one will doubt is "The Creator of all that Exist" The Originator.
Each one of you recognize Him as Your Creator and you call Him my Creator in your own languages.
No matter what you call Him you are saying The Creator, the Originator.
So don't waste your time saying my word is Him and your word is not Him. You are all referring to the Creator of all that exist, so wake-up Think Deeply and Start a Good Fresh Relationship with Him and do what He loves the most which are Truth, Honest, Sincerity, Patience, Learning, Teaching and Deep Thinking then Obeying Him.
Do not waste your time writing, reading and thinking about something that does not benefit you.
Remember Your Creator and Build a Good Fresh Relationship with Him and ask for Guidance.
Learn about His Messengers and Prophets and Read His Speech to you the Recitation (The Quran) ask your Creator to make you the Follower of His Last Messenger Mohammed Peace and Blessings of Him be with him.
May the Creator of All that exist your Creator and my Creator Guide us all to the Straight Path ameen.
Peace, Blessings, and Mercy of the Creator be with you.
------------- A. Suleiman
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 07 February 2008 at 5:58pm
Anatolian wrote:
Muslims believe both are same.
In a Christian perspective I see quite a bit of difference concerning the message of both God (Judeo-Christian) and Islam's Allah.
Thoughts anyone? |
"muslims believe both are same" that is because it is the same. Allah is arabic for God. Funny how some people forget about the arab christians
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 08 February 2008 at 12:05am
Angel, you are correct Arab Christians use the name Allah for God. But what
I meant to ask here is not the difference in name but the difference in
commands given to Muhammed from Gabriel, who was sent according to
Muhammed by Allah, the Allah of the Christians and Jews. But Christians and
Jews do not follow this later version of The Creator, in which Islam is based
on solely. The difference in teachings and commands when you compare
Judeo-Christian basics and Islam is wide yet there are obvious similarities
which accounts for the Jewish and Christian presence and influence in Arabia
prior to the Islamic movement of the 7th century.
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 08 February 2008 at 1:53am
Do you mean the differences in
commands make some Christian and Jewish people avoid following Islam?
Assume there was NO difference in
ANY command between Islam and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism" title="Judaism - - Judaism
or Christianity not Islam. On the other hand, if there is no difference between
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism" title="Judaism - This
means exactly the same. They say there should be NO difference. But this is God
who says there should be difference or not.
However, I think the basics are
indeed the same. I see consensus in all prophets. The first and most important
basic of all is to believe in God, who is unseen and who is one and only
one. The basic is to follow what God like and worship him. The basic is to believe in unseen. I believe that all
124000 prophets including Adam, Nooh, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the last one, Mohammad (sawa),
are from one and only one God and all of them have performed their mission.
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 08 February 2008 at 2:10am
I believe that all 124000 prophets including Adam, Nooh, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the last one, Mohammad (sawa), are from one and only one God and all of them have performed their mission
If Allah looked after the people on earth since the beginning of time(ie 124000 prophets) then why does He not feel it neceesary for us to have a prophet now? I am muslim, and have every belief on the Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an, but on the basis of history, it looks like Allah is denying us someone who can lead and guide us in these days.
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 08 February 2008 at 2:37am
martha wrote:
I am muslim, and have every belief on the Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an, but on the basis of history, it looks like Allah is denying us someone who can lead and guide us in these days. |
Dear, Dear Martha....how I am biting my tongue. God love you, I am smiling right now.
Anyway, As a member of a "different" Christian Tradition, I just can't understand how a different interpretation makes for a different being.
The Quran clearly states that the Revelation is by the Angel Gabrielle (who appears in both Jewish and Christian Scripture) appeared to Muhammed (pbuh) with word from God to bring the Pagan peoples away from their false gods.
Now, given my sect believes Muhammed (pbuh) to have been one of the many prophets given a portion of the truth, then this is even easier for me. But lets just analyze the basics.
Two people can look at the same person and give completely different descriptions of that person.
Example, I think that President Clinton was a pretty good president even with the infidelity. However, an evangelical Christian Republican would think he was one of the worst presidents in history. Both of us could present facts to make our arguments true. Does that mean there are two Bill Clintons. Of course not.
Islam is an extension of the two faiths that came before it. It rejects the previous faiths as having become corrupted and needed correcting. Does this change who God is? No, it only changes the interpretation of what God WANTs from his creations. Its still the same God.
We are humans, mortal, imperfect and with freewill and conscience reason. No two Christians will give the exact same believe on the Nature of God, neither will two Muslims. But its the same God. One God, One Being. Many have claimed over the Centuries to have talked with God, his angels or his Son. But, only Faith tells us which ones to believe and which ones to reject.
God is God. That doesn't change, no matter what word you use for him. God is God, no matter whether you believe he's an old man with a white beard (children's drawings), a formless cosmic force, embodied in the flesh of a jewish rabbi who was crucified or a man of flesh exalted and perfected. Fact is, none of us know for sure what God is like. We have faith in our scriptures and prophets to tell us. But, we won't know until that Last Day when we come before him.
The best anyone can do is have faith in God Almighty and that his perfection will outway any imperfection in our understanding.
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 08 February 2008 at 7:12am
Angela,
I thought you would pick up on my comment And I know you understand my thoughts on this. I know others wouldnt understand.
I wonder what other responses will come from muslims on my question.
But you know Angela, old habits die hard. You would call me a lost soul I think
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 08 February 2008 at 8:41am
It is a beautiful question. In my
belief, Allah is looking after us everywhere and every time. Allah has been
always looking after us and will be so. But it does not mean that
there must be another prophet-like mission or a new religion, and nobody exists to guide us. I will explain soon ...
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 08 February 2008 at 6:06pm
martha wrote:
I believe that all 124000 prophets including Adam, Nooh, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the last one, Mohammad (sawa), are from one and only one God and all of them have performed their mission
If Allah looked after the people on earth since the beginning of time(ie 124000 prophets) then why does He not feel it neceesary for us to have a prophet now? I am muslim, and have every belief on the Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an, but on the basis of history, it looks like Allah is denying us someone who can lead and guide us in these days.
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Sis Martha, we had a great scholar from India. Sulaiman Nadwi, who had studied the life history of our Prophet and had written many books of seerah. Anyways, here are his words that shall answer your question. Its an extract from his book , Muhammad - The Ideal Prophet.
"Every Prophet of Allah came to this world as a witness, or aharbinger of good tidings, or as a warner, or as a summonner, but never in the past there came a prophet who combined all these qualities. There were witnesses to Allah's majesty and, overlordship, like Jacob, Issac and Ishmael. Others like Abraham and Jesus were the heralds of glad tidings. There were also warners like Noah, Hud, and Shu'yeb, the main point of their warnings was terrible punishment awating the evil-doers. Then, there were the prophets like Joseph and Jonah whose teachings set the tone for those who summon to divine guidance. But the messenger par excellence who had all these marks of prophethood - a witness as well as a welcomer, a warner as well as a caller and who was a distinguished Apostle in every aspect was none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). He was sent to be sent to the world as the last Prophet, the final one, after whom no other messenger was to be sent again by Allah.
This is the reason why he was granted a shari'ah or the law that was perfect and final requiring no revision in the days to come.
For the teaching of the last Prophet were to be everbinding, to remain unchanged to the end of time, he was sent as a acme of perfection with over-flowing guidance and resplendent light. This is an indisputable fact attested by history."
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 08 February 2008 at 10:00pm
martha wrote:
it looks like Allah is denying us someone who can lead and guide us in these days.
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Remeber sister-
That everything Allah(swt) does is for a reason. We may not know or understand the reason 'why', but Allah as a perfect God does everything right. Remain strong in faith. Also consider the reasons why the Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h) was the last prophet. His sunnah allowed for us to have great imams throughout the world. While their will never be a messenger as great as Mohammed (p.b.u.h) in this modern world, we are still very blessed f0r the scholars, imams we do have.
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 09 February 2008 at 11:14pm
Anatolian wrote:
Angel, you are correct Arab Christians use the name Allah for God. But what I meant to ask here is not the difference in name but the difference in commands given to Muhammed from Gabriel, who was sent according to Muhammed by Allah, the Allah of the Christians and Jews. But Christians and Jews do not follow this later version of The Creator, in which Islam is based on solely. The difference in teachings and commands when you compare Judeo-Christian basics and Islam is wide yet there are obvious similarities which accounts for the Jewish and Christian presence and influence in Arabia prior to the Islamic movement of the 7th century. |
I understand.
All 3 religions are different in their view of God. Everyone has there own view of God. My view or what I percieve for me about God is different to. But I seem to be on the side that we all believe in the same one God, I could be wrong in the end or that there are many Gods, but then I think it comes down to personal belief. I can say this and that about God, and the next person can to the same with different view, and so can islam, christianity and Judaism.
I don't believe there is any way of knowing if there is one or many Gods (Godess/Godesses) I know islam, christianity, Judaism believes that there is only one God. I know I believe in one God, but there could be more gods for all i know, whether its a pathoen or some other way. Again I think it comes down to personal belief as to how one believes. I certainly don't believe God as he/she/it is percieved in the 3 religions, am I believing in another God? could be the question, the same as you are asking about islam and christianity's perception of God
Despite the differences in views, the joint in both religions cames down to Abraham's son Ismail, and the Archangel Gabriel who came to Muhammed, is also in Christianity and Judaism. I think because of that there is the view of, the same one God. If there was a completely different Angel that is not on the list of angels (which by the way everyone uses whether they are in one of the 3 religions or not) then maybe there would be a bit of discrepancy.
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 10 February 2008 at 2:53am
First of all, it is a fact that we live in the same planet, stand on the same earth, breathe the same air, drink the same water - a gift from whom? A gift from Our Creator. There could not have been more than One Creator who created the whole universe, hell and heaven and every tiny atoms in this universe. Agreed?
Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the final Messenger of Allah to humanity, and therefore the Qur'an is the last Message which Allah (swt) has sent to us. Its predecessors such as the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels have all been superseded. It is an obligation - and blessing - for all who hear of the Qur'an and Islam to investigate it and evaluate it for themselves. Allah (swt) has guaranteed that He will protect the Qur'an from human tampering, and today's readers can find exact copies of it all over the world. The Qur'an of today is the same as the Qur'an revealed to Muhammad (saw) 1400 years ago.
He is Allah AlKhaliq - The Creator, He is Allah Al-Awwal - The Begining, He is Allah Al-Akhir - The Last.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 10 February 2008 at 3:17am
Nur_Ilahi wrote:
First of all, it is a fact that we live in the same planet, stand on the same earth, breathe the same air, drink the same water - a gift from whom? A gift from Our Creator. There could not have been more than One Creator who created the whole universe, hell and heaven and every tiny atoms in this universe. Agreed? |
Actually, No agreement apart from living on the same planet and sharing its resources
The question is about God in both Islam and Christianity whether its the same God or another God because when you do compare there is different preceptions.
Nur, my personal belief in God, in what I think God to be is different to your view or islam's and christianity. But am I believing in the same God as you or am I believing in another God since I'm not viewing it as you are? that's the question.
p.s: something tells me this should have gone into interfaith section
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 10 February 2008 at 9:23am
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 1:53am
When we find Allah looking after
us since the beginning of the history of human being, we can conclude two
important messages:
1. Muhammad (sawa) is not single without
history and direction. Rather when we look at the history, there is a curve showing a
DIRECTION.
2. In the history of human being, this MOTION is
started by Adam but not ended by Mohammad (sawa). It is continuously going
on.
I have to draw your attention to a vitally
important point: when Allah says there won�t be another prophet after Mohammad
(sawa), this means there won�t be another religion, but it doesn�t mean that MOTION
of guidance is stopped and there is no body to guide us. This means
1. Mohammad
(sawa) delivered what Allah wanted him to deliver.
2. With what we have been
delivered, we can grow towards completeness.
Therefore, I believe that even
after the last religion, there should be a pure compete Human at each time for
all people around the world who is created by Allah and introduced by his last
prophet, who is the teacher of Quran and whose religion is the last religion.
This human is alive and present every time to continue the motion of guidance. Now
the question is if Mohammad (sawa) has really introduced such a human?
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 2:08am
To answer that question, let me
come back to history. In the last Haj pilgrimage by Mohammad (sawa), about 120000
people accompanied him. After the pilgrimage,
Muhammad (sawa) made a speech saying that would be his last pilgrimage and Allah told him by Gebrail to deliver what he want. He then introduced Ali (as) and placed a great emphasis
on this fact that Ali is selected by Allah and is that human to guide people.
He then introduced 11 people of Mohammad�s daughter (sa) and Ali�s
generation saying that they will come and will be pure
as well and will guide people.
Those who didn�t want this to
happen started to kill Ali and those generation of him one
by one, after Mohammad (sawa) and during the history. The twelfth one was born about 250 years after
Mohammad (sawa) but Allah made him unseen to keep him away from danger till the
specific day in future. He is alive now, people see him
but do not know him. His name is Mahdi (the guider one). To guide people he is alive and present.
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 3:22am
Allah made him unseen to keep him away from danger till the specific day in future. His is alive now, people see him but do not know him. His name is Mahdi (the guided one). To guide people he is alive and present.
This is interesting. And if he is alive now is a very old man then. Or does he not age?
In Christianity, John, one of the 12 disciples did not die, but was allowed to remain on the earth as a ministering servant until the time of Jesus's 2nd coming. See John 20-23 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die.
Is this the same for the mahdi you speak of? And when will he be allowed to make himself known? And how does he guide people if they dont know him?
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 3:26am
SWEETSWORDS 48 [ Allah ]
BISMILLAH
By Poga Humayun Dundiwala
Allah is AL Azim Allah is rahmanur Rahim Allah is Allah There is nothing like him
Allah is AL Karim Allah is rahmanur Rahim Allah is Allah There is nothing like him
Allah is AL Hakim Allah is rahmanur Rahim Allah is Allah There is nothing like him
Allah is AL Halim Allah is rahmanir Rahim Allah is Allah There is nothing like him
Allah is AL Alim Allah is rahmanir Rahim Allah is Allah There is nothing like him
Poga Say's in a foolington maze
Allah is also AL Muqaadim The quick avenger AL Muntaqim Allah is Allah There is nothing like him
Allah is AL Azim Allah is rahmanir Rahim Allah is Allah There is nothing like him
Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : AL HAYY the alive the living symbol AL MUHYI the giver of life the sonic rumble AL MUID the restorer the surgeon's scalpel AL MUMIT the giver of death the slaughtering knife the dying mumble This are names of our lord our GOD ALLAH AL AZIM Therefore oh BE AQL today's topic is sign of names science of sound and secrets of ALIF LAM MIM
Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : ALLAH is the lord our GOD AL ALIM the all knowing He knows all done every did and total doing And ALLAH gave us the permission If we are in doubt to go to the person Who knows who have the authority And i know oh BARZAKH all the schools and i know every masters and i know no one made you theirs deputy Who gave you the authority to speak about QURANIC secrets and science of geometry and mathematics I know you from moment you were born i am familiar with all your antics I know for fact your academic back ground is up to class five I am familiar with your every junky discontent and every drunken jibe I know for fact you never had any respect for any masters mufti or mullah And you are trying to teach me secrets of ALIF LAM MIM Wastagfirullah Nauzubillah min zalik I pray to ALLAH to grant us the taufique The ability to recognize your misleading screen And save us from fitna of every misleading man and jinn So stop your abracadabra rope and cobra Stop your tricks and just shut up We are among those who neither agree nor disagree before we checkup
Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : I know i am not illiterate nor i am uneducated But i know i am the least adulterated unpolluted I am the rough reality not any of your polished phony Your fake learning can not grasp me because my realm is the ajanana avidiya the nescience laduni I who have imprisoned screams of dew drops with my tear drop ink I know all your present knot and all your missing link My academic background is up to five but my Islamic background is eight I am he who have fathomed back of behind and front of fate I know not mathematics or geometry but i know science of balance I know unconscious lightness and weight of the sense I know not any alchemy but i know AL HIQMA Because my Ulema is not Darul Ulema but my Ulema is the Darul Umma So you shut up Mullah the agent of those secret business man You who sell your books and sell your pen You who teaches tricks of trade and art to swallow profit from from others loss In the wealth world i may not be your master but in riches of heavens i am definitely your boss
Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : He who has wisdom in all orders and actions He who has wisdom over all the intentions He who is Hiqmatul AL Hakim Say he is ALLAH and there is nothing like him
Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : He who is higher than every manner and every condition He who is higher than every thought and every imagination Say he is ALLAH the most exalted AL Muta-ali Say he is ALLAH the governor AL Wali
------------- awal
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 6:35am
And if he is alive now is a very old
man then. Or does he not age?
His
age is more than 1000 years. But, he can be even a young man. You know the
story of Kahf in Quran. "People of the Cave" were young men
who slept in a cave and Allah kept them in that form for about 300 years. When Allah woke
them up, they were unchanged so that they thought they had slept for a day or half a day...
regarding your other questions, I will write about some ways of guidance, and the day he will be appeared.
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 11:45pm
myahya wrote:
And if he is alive now is a very old
man then. Or does he not age?
His
age is more than 1000 years. But, he can be even a young man. You know the
story of Kahf in Quran. "People of the Cave" were young men
who slept in a cave and Allah kept them in that form for about 300 years. When Allah woke
them up, they were unchanged so that they thought they had slept for a day or half a day...
regarding your other questions, I will write about some ways of guidance, and the day he will be appeared.
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John would be about 2000 years old. I would assume since his request was to tarry and preach the gospel, he would not age. There are those that believe he was John of Patmos (the Revelator), but John the Revelator has a grave.
Perhaps this was a description of the fact John lived to be older than your average person. In a time where the life expectancy was well below 50, who can only imagine someone living to be 100?
I personally believe he's still alive since Jesus has not returned. (Of course, there are also 3 more men the same in our (LDS) beliefs)
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 12 February 2008 at 1:05pm
Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : ALLAH is one and only ALLAH is alone and lonely ALLAH is every not many ALLAH is all not any ALLAH is entire the unequal ALLAH is whole not dual Therefore say ALLAH is ALLAH La illa ha illel la MUHAMMAD-UR RASUL ALLAH
from SWEETSWORDS 18 [ Compass ]
------------- awal
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 12 February 2008 at 5:06pm
martha wrote:
In Christianity, John, one of the 12 disciples did not die, but was allowed to remain on the earth as a ministering servant until the time of Jesus's 2nd coming. See John 20-23 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. |
But martha, you only quoted half of John 21:23. John goes on to point out the obvious:
Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, �If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?� |
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 1:52am
Ron,
Yes you are absolutely right. Thanks for pointing it out.
However, what is your belief about John. Did he not die? Angela's reply was good, and as such one I would agree with, having once been LDS. I dont know how other Christians feel about John.
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 4:10am
Is this the
same for the mahdi you speak of? And when will he be allowed to make himself
known?
I didn�t know about John and it
was interesting for me. I see some similar aspects. I should say no
body knows the time Mahdi (as) will be appeared. Ali (as) and the other 11
leaders have told people if anyone at anytime claims that he or she knows when
Mahdi appears, they are telling a lie for sure. It can be a few seconds later,
days later or many years later. His first appearance would be beside Kaaba in Mecca, and the day of his appearance will not be Ghiaamah
(the last day) ...
And how does he guide people if they dont
know him?
He guides people in many
different ways. Remember that a visual contact is not necessary for guidance in any way, even though it can happen. There are many things to say, but in this post I would like to write one of the
answers given by the sixth leader of twelve who was called Imam Saadegh (as)
(Saadegh means one who always says the truth). Imam Saadegh (as) was asked how
people benefit from Mahdi (as) when they do not see or know him. He answered
that "it would be similar to the benefit of sun on a cloudy day when the
sun is behind the clouds". One may try to imagine how would it be without the sun even on a cloudy day...
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 1:14pm
martha wrote:
However, what is your belief about John. Did he not die? |
Of course he died. No mortal can live 2000 years. I am astonished that alleged monotheists are so ready to attribute superhuman powers to their holy men.
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 8:29pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
The opposite of that argument ron is that God cant give such a thing to a mortal man.
Are you limiting what god can or cant do.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 2:28am
rami wrote:
Are you limiting what god can or cant do. |
I don't think ron is, but my 2 cents worth is that God did create us and there's only a few of us that can get to 120 yrs let alone live for 1000 or 2000 years
anyway what happened to the topic about God and Allah in islam and Christianity ?
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 5:47am
rami wrote:
The opposite of that argument ron is that God cant give such a thing to a mortal man. |
God could make a mortal man into another god too, but monotheists must believe that He did not. At the very least, such an extraordinary event as conferring god-like powers on a man (or woman, e.g., the virgin birth of Christ) ought to warrant some specific mention in the Bible, and should not have to be inferred.
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 9:16am
Ron Webb wrote:
rami wrote:
The opposite of that argument ron is that God cant give such a thing to a mortal man. |
God could make a mortal man into another god too, but monotheists must believe that He did not. At the very least, such an extraordinary event as conferring god-like powers on a man (or woman, e.g., the virgin birth of Christ) ought to warrant some specific mention in the Bible, and should not have to be inferred.
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hello ron you did not came by so i am here
tell me ron who was the god who wrestle with job
------------- awal
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 9:27am
Ron, A monotheist never believes that a mortal is another God and can be
another God. Otherwise, I would not call him or her a monotheist. But, do
you really believe if a mortal lives for more than what you think is ordinary, then that mortal would be another God? Then I would say how small your God is ... !
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 9:42am
Bi ismilahi rahmani raheem
Scientifically speaking all it would mean is that your cell regeneration stays at the same rate and does not decay, nothing Godly about that just something God decided to do for someone.
you assuming they are god becouse of it is your leap in logic not mine...i.e i don't need to believe that a person who does not die is a god also.
i should rather state its not Godly to be immortal as every one of us will be given this gift in the next life, will we be gods at that point in time?
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 10:56am
poga wrote:
tell me ron who was the god who wrestle with job |
I think you mean Jacob, and Genesis says that he was a man, not a god.
|
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 11:11am
myahya wrote:
Ron, A monotheist never believes that a mortal is another God and can be another God. Otherwise, I would not call him or her a monotheist. But, do you really believe if a mortal lives for more than what you think is ordinary, then that mortal would be another God? Then I would say how small your God is ... ! |
Well, it's a matter of semantics, isn't it? Polytheistic religions usually ascribe different powers to their various gods, the Greeks had their demigods and their heroes and so on. Where you draw the line between gods and humans is a matter of definition. It just seems to me that immortality (or virtual immortality) is a pretty big one in the list of defining characteristics of a god. That's why we contrast gods with "mortals".
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 11:18am
rami wrote:
Scientifically speaking all it would mean is that your cell regeneration stays at the same rate and does not decay, nothing Godly about that just something God decided to do for someone. |
It seems to me that we're talking about a full-blown miracle, not just something that "God decided to do for someone". As I said, surely it would be a noteworthy event, not something left to be deduced from ambiguous and conflicting information. I would rather believe, as Saint John said, that reports of his immortality were just rumours, not factual.
i should rather state its not Godly to be immortal as every one of us will be given this gift in the next life, will we be gods at that point in time? |
Well, we won't be "mortals" anymore.
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:29pm
It just seems to me that immortality (or virtual
immortality) is a pretty big one in the list of defining characteristics of a
god.
Immortality is intrinsically one of the characteristics of
Allah.
It seems to me that we're talking about a full-blown
miracle, not just something that "God decided to do for
someone".
Prophets have shown full-blown miracles. Allah decided to
do for them. None of them performed those miracles inherently.
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 6:23pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
I would rather believe, as Saint John said, that reports of his immortality were just rumours, not factual.
I am not arguing for or against this particular case but rather if God has the ability to do it without us considering them a God.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 6:47pm
myahya wrote:
Prophets have shown full-blown miracles. Allah decided to do for them. None of them performed those miracles inherently. |
Yes of course, but my point is that miracles are extremely unusual events which would not go unnoticed or unreported.
|
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 6:58pm
rami wrote:
I am not arguing for or against this particular case but rather if God has the ability to do it without us considering them a God. |
Yes, God has the ability to do it. Whether that makes them "gods" depends on your definition, of course. I would say no, immortality by itself is insufficient; but I wouldn't call them "mortals" either. They are somewhere in between.
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 11:50pm
We are all immortal in spirit. I think you could take the lessons of the immortality of the spirit and see where John the Beloved is in fact still alive.
The grave is temporary. On the Last Day, we will all be assigned to our Eternal resting place. This is a fundamental principle in Islam and Christianity.
Immortality doesn't make one a God. The power over the forces of Creation makes one God. Prophet's don't hold this power, nor do Angels. Only God.
So, believing that God could make someone Immortal is true. He's made us all immortal. We just must first suffer a bodily death. The day of resurrection will united boy and spirit for Eternity to be with God.
We talk sometimes about being twinkled. Like Elijah, where death and resurrection are so immediate that the person does not suffer. We believe that certain Prophets have had this blessing.
The nature of God is such that anything is possible to him. However, he's laid down the rules for us. Rules that he himself obeys because he is perfect. Thus everything is planned out...creation, Adam and Eve, Jesus, Revelation... These are all within God's plan.
I like the statement in the Quran that Allah is the best of planners.
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 15 February 2008 at 12:59am
After all, about the mortality or immortality in this period of our life
(before the last day, Qiamah) Quran has clearly stated that �All individuals taste
death�. Even Mahdi (as), whom I earlier spoke of, would die before Qiaamah and
it is also reported by the last prophet and 12 leaders.
Yes of course, but my point is that miracles are extremely unusual
events which would not go unnoticed or unreported. This is another concept open to question �
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 15 February 2008 at 7:18am
Ron Webb wrote:
poga wrote:
tell me ron who was the god who wrestle with job |
I think you mean Jacob, and Genesis says that he was a man, not a god.
|
thank you ron i made mistake with job and jacob
but my question still remain who was this god with whome jocob fought
you say he was men but bible say's he god
In Genesis 32:24-32, we read about how the child of the promise, Jacob, wrestled and fought against God. Jacob fought against God Himself, and he got seriously hurt by God because He wrestled against Him, Jacob got so hurt after wrestling with God he walked with a limp for the rest of his life. The limp would have been a reminder of the suffering he had to endure in order to see the face of God
------------- awal
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 February 2008 at 11:08am
poga wrote:
you say he was men but bible say's he god
In Genesis 32:24-32, we read about how the child of the promise, Jacob, wrestled and fought against God. |
The Book of Genesis clearly and repeatedly calls him a man. Jacob seems to think he was God, but Jacob must have been mistaken. Here is the New International translation, but it's similar in King James or any other version I've seen:
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered.
28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." |
You'll note that the Bible says that the man could not overpower Jacob. How then could he have been God?
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 16 February 2008 at 1:43am
Bi ismillahi rahamani raheem
I would say no, immortality by itself is insufficient; but I wouldn't
call them "mortals" either. They are somewhere in between.
yes they will no longer be mortal, no surprise there but they would still be human.
Implicit in your reply is the underlaying assumption that you would prostrate your self to something which wasnt God in the absolute sence but merely had some powers which distinguished it from being human.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 February 2008 at 9:33am
I wouldn't prostrate myself anyway, rami. My God would have more respect for human dignity. But that's a totally different discussion.
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 17 February 2008 at 2:18am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
You are not more dignified than every single prophet he sent or every single angel he created or Jesus himself and his mother marry.
As they say there are no atheists on a sinking ship.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 17 February 2008 at 7:16am
Ron Webb wrote:
poga wrote:
you say he was men but bible say's he god
In Genesis 32:24-32, we read about how the child of the promise, Jacob, wrestled and fought against God. |
The Book of Genesis clearly and repeatedly calls him a man. Jacob seems to think he was God, but Jacob must have been mistaken. Here is the New International translation, but it's similar in King James or any other version I've seen:
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered.
28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." |
You'll note that the Bible says that the man could not overpower Jacob. How then could he have been God? |
hello ron who is malchezadek who is this god who is doing what he is doing to sarah
1] And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to
Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou
perfect.
[2] And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply
thee exceedingly.
[3] And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
[4] As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a
father of many nations.
[5] Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall
be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
[6] And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of
thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed
after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto
thee, and to thy seed after thee.
[8] And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land
wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting
possession; and I will be their God.
[15] And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not
call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
[16] And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will
bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of
her.
[17] Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart,
Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah,
that is ninety years old, bear?
[18] And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
[19] And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou
shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an
everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
18:1- 5,9-14
[1] And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in
the tent door in the heat of the day;
[2] And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him:
and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself
toward the ground,
[3] And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not
away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
[4] Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and
rest yourselves under the tree:
[5] And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after
that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said,
So do, as thou hast said.
[9] And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold,
in the tent.
[10] And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time
of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the
tent door, which was behind him.
[11] Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it
ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
[12] Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old
shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
[13] And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying,
Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
[14] Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will
return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
21:1-3
[1] And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto
Sarah as he had spoken.
[2] For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the
set time of which God had spoken to him.
[3] And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom
Sarah bare to him, Isaac
------------- awal
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 February 2008 at 10:59am
poga wrote:
who is malchezadek |
I give up. Who was he?
who is this god who is doing what he is doing to sarah |
There is only one God, poga. What's your point?
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 February 2008 at 1:15pm
rami wrote:
You are not more dignified than every single prophet he sent or every single angel he created or Jesus himself and his mother marry. |
The meaning of a behaviour is determined by the social context. Fourteen centuries ago in the Middle East, grovelling may have been a sign of respect. Today, where I live at least, it is considered demeaning both to the grovellee and the groveller.
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 17 February 2008 at 2:46pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
The meaning of a behaviour is determined by the social context.
And thus a prophet became a god to those who prostrate them selfs to society rather than the one true God.
Does religion itself change because society changes or is religion the litmus test by which we measure how twisted society has become, i think your socially conscious answer is clear enough.
Fourteen centuries ago in the Middle East, grovelling may have been a
sign of respect. Today, where I live at least, it is considered demeaning both to the grovellee and the groveller.
will society again change when jesus returns or will they dare insult him and accuse him of groveling?
Arrogance has not changed in 2000 years ago, but it seems the meaning of the word dignity has. There is nothing more dignified than to submit your will to him and prostration is a sign of submitting your will, this was the meaning 2000 years ago and it still remains the meaning today. Society simply become morally bankrupt it doesn't dictate what is right or wrong in the absolute sense we havnt learnt how to be the master of the universe yet.
Why dont we get back to the subject which is the underlaying belief in your post that you will accept a being as God if he simply displays some form of Godly powers.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 February 2008 at 6:20pm
rami wrote:
Does religion itself change because society changes or is religion the litmus test by which we measure how twisted society has become, i think your socially conscious answer is clear enough. |
Religion itself need not change, but religious practice certainly does.
will society again change when jesus returns or will they dare insult him and accuse him of groveling? |
If Jesus were to return today in my own community, I'm convinced he would bathe daily, brush his teeth regularly, wear appropriate clothing, speak the language and adopt the customs (within reason) of contemporary society. I bet he'd be clean-shaven too, because a beard would make it harder to win public trust. I don't think he'd be doing much grovelling.
If he looked and behaved (and smelled!) as he did two millennia ago, he'd probably be mistaken for a homeless person, or maybe an escaped mental patient. Not a good image for someone delivering an important message to mankind.
Why dont we get back to the subject which is the underlaying belief in your post that you will accept a being as God if he simply displays some form of Godly powers. |
Well, I'm not sure I said that exactly, but I'd be interested to know how you would define a (small g) god, without reference to godly powers.
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 17 February 2008 at 10:16pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
Religion itself need not change, but religious practice certainly does.
So mans social pressures are above Gods doctrine?
Do we tell God what is wrong or right now.
If Jesus
were to return today in my own community, I'm convinced he would bathe
daily, brush his teeth regularly, wear appropriate clothing, speak the
language and adopt the customs (within reason) of contemporary society.
Is the opposite of these part of religion?
you seem to have a Hollywood understanding of History? John the Baptist was baptizing people in water not mud, The jews of the time used to take ritual baths to purify themselves of impurity and sin they believed similar to how we believe that water washes away sins from the physical body.
You brush your teeth one or twice a day, a muslim is instructed to brush them 5 times a day, we have a saying from our prophet "half of faith consists of cleanliness".
Those who are trully being guided by God are pure and clean by there very nature its a manifestation of there worship of God.
Hollywood wont teach you that.
"adopt the customs"
This is a very deep topic, i dont think a devinely inspired being whohas knowledge about cration tiself will adopt heathanistic customs "A"
but it also depends on what you mean by customs.
I bet
he'd be clean-shaven too, because a beard would make it harder to win
public trust.
trust earned by deceptive means is beneath a prophet, if there is spiritual good in having a beard [something which may be beyond your perception] then he will have a beard in order to show there is good in it. God created man with facial hair looking neat does not necessarily entail not having abeard.
I don't think he'd be doing much grovelling.
That is your misguided understanding, you desire him to bend to your will and fallible understanding of reality rather than try to understand his which is being guided to the truth or according to your beliefe as a christian he is the Truth.
but I'd be interested to know how you would define a (small g) god, without reference to godly powers.
There is no such thing as a small god, There is only One God.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 2:02am
but I'd be interested to know how you would define a (small g) god, without reference to godly powers.
As a Muslim I believe that Allah is greater than all references. Therefore, If one limits Allah's power to any special definition (which may be called "godly power" or ...) I say Allah is greater.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 11:06am
I am pushed on time but I wanted to point on several things that interest me. My posts will be in bold.
Angela said: The nature of God is such that anything is possible to him.
This is somewhat true and not true. The above statement is problematic because if we say that the nature of God is such that God can actualize (make it true) then we can run into problems. There are rules in which philosophically speaking, God CANNOT do such as self-annihilation. Can infinity self-annihilate itself? In the eyes of physics and logic, hardly. If we were to suspect that God has established some sort of spiritual rule then it would be logical to pressupose that God has self-limiting qualities ergo, decides to not annihilate itself. Of course religionist would find such things as a ridiculous notion however certain statements can be made problematic. I choose not to say God can do "anything" just "anything that is logical." It is not logical for an infinitely wise being to suddenly desire to go into non-existence.
Ron Webb said: Religion itself need not change, but religious practice certainly does.
This statement is nonsensical. Where do you think religious practices derive from? If I am told to prostrate where do you think this command comes from? But if we are discussing specificities then you need to specify which religious practices you are talking about.
Ron Webb:
If Jesus were to return today in my own community, I'm convinced he would bathe daily, brush his teeth regularly, wear appropriate clothing, speak the language and adopt the customs (within reason) of contemporary society. I bet he'd be clean-shaven too, because a beard would make it harder to win public trust. I don't think he'd be doing much grovelling.
This is assumption. I would imagine ancient prophets having a divine aura around them that would create an influence upon thse within their perimeter. Like the Dali Lama for instance I hear when others are around him they tend to have this positive feeling that eminates from him. Now imagine if this were true this is a great quality for a simple human being. Now imagine a prophet. You ar emerely asuming that if Jesus were to return he'd acclimate into a particular culture I assume western (or a westernized culture) by what you describe since some cultures prefer to not shave, clean themselves etc. I couldn't begin to describe WWJD.
Ron Webb said:
If he looked and behaved (and smelled!) as he did two millennia ago, he'd probably be mistaken for a homeless person, or maybe an escaped mental patient. Not a good image for someone delivering an important message to mankind.
This is again absurd now you are assuming Jesus was not a hygenic person. This whole unshaven smelly thing is quite absurd you cannot possibly articulate or even imagine how Jesus lived during his his ministries this is kinda ridiculous. You only have historical, Biblical and quranic accounts of the time Jesus lived but according to history he lived (supposedly) 33 years so how do you know within those 33 years he lived like a homeless man who smelled?
Ron Webb said:
Well, I'm not sure I said that exactly, but I'd be interested to know how you would define a (small g) god, without reference to godly powers.
I'm not sure if I understand this or I'm just coming in too late in the conversation but from my understanding, a god is someone who is immortal and has specific authority and autonomy over something either a specific element or planet or part of the universe. Prophets are not gods in the monotheistic tradition because they were mortals and had limited authority and even that limited authority was given to them by someone else. But as we see in the Greek tradition the gods of Olympus had their powers given as well (By Zeus I believe after he overthrew his Father).
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 11:13am
rami wrote:
Religion itself need not change, but religious practice certainly does.
So mans social pressures are above Gods doctrine? |
By "religion itself" I meant God's doctrine. God demands our respect and our faith, but as far as I know He did not stipulate that we express it by prostrating ourselves. God wants us to be clean, but as far as I know He did not stipulate the use of soap, deodorant or toothbrushes.
you seem to have a Hollywood understanding of History? John the Baptist was baptizing people in water not mud, The jews of the time used to take ritual baths to purify themselves of impurity and sin they believed similar to how we believe that water washes away sins from the physical body. |
Right. How often do you suppose Jesus and his contemporaries bathed, ritually or otherwise?
trust earned by deceptive means is beneath a prophet, if there is spiritual good in having a beard [something which may be beyond your perception] then he will have a beard in order to show there is good in it. God created man with facial hair looking neat does not necessarily entail not having abeard. |
There's nothing deceptive about shaving, rami, and IMHO there's little point in being a prophet if no one believes you. Having a beard does not make you a better person, and if it did, that would have been mentioned in the Quran. Allah tells us He left nothing out.
but I'd be interested to know how you would define a (small g) god, without reference to godly powers.
There is no such thing as a small god, There is only One God. |
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Let me put it this way: the Quran (4.36) says "worship God [alone], and do not ascribe divinity, in any way, to aught beside Him." What do you think "ascribing divinity" means? Does it not mean attributing godly powers to someone other than Allah?
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 1:18pm
Israfil wrote:
Ron Webb said: Religion itself need not change, but religious practice certainly does.
This statement is nonsensical. Where do you think religious practices derive from? If I am told to prostrate where do you think this command comes from? |
Well, you tell me. Were you told to prostrate by Allah, either directly or in the Quran? Or were you told by a man?
If Jesus were to return today in my own community, I'm convinced he would bathe daily, brush his teeth regularly, wear appropriate clothing, speak the language and adopt the customs (within reason) of contemporary society. I bet he'd be clean-shaven too, because a beard would make it harder to win public trust. I don't think he'd be doing much grovelling.
This is assumption. I would imagine ancient prophets having a divine aura around them that would create an influence upon thse within their perimeter. |
Yes, we're both making assumptions. Maybe Jesus would be exactly the same today as he was two thousand years ago. Maybe he'd even speak Aramaic. But if he did, he wouldn't be a very effective prophet, would he?
If he looked and behaved (and smelled!) as he did two millennia ago, he'd probably be mistaken for a homeless person, or maybe an escaped mental patient. Not a good image for someone delivering an important message to mankind.
This is again absurd now you are assuming Jesus was not a hygenic person. |
Jesus followed the hygienic practices of his times, but times have changed. And that's a good thing, in my opinion. Better hygiene is the main reason people live twice as long as they used to.
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 1:36am
Yes,
we're both making assumptions. Maybe Jesus would be exactly the same
today as he was two thousand years ago. Maybe he'd even speak
Aramaic. But if he did, he wouldn't be a very effective prophet, would
he?
Following
aspects are important I think:
1) IN APPEARANCE, prophets usually used to live like other people in the
society they were living. It is written in the history of Islam that a
new person, who had not already known the prophet, could not realize by
appearance who is Muhammad (sawa) in a group of people for the first time.
2) Most of the prophets were not like socially-defined wealthy powerful people like
Kings or wealthiest people where they were living in. Thus, they were usually
not powerful and wealthy IN APPEARANCE but rather powerful and wealthy IN SPIRIT,
HUMAN BEHAVIOR, WISEDEM and so on.
And this is what Allah liked them to be which has its own reasons.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 9:17am
Ron Webb said:
Jesus followed the hygienic practices of his times
How do you know?
Ron Webb said: Yes, we're both making assumptions. Maybe Jesus would be exactly the same today as he was two thousand years ago. Maybe he'd even speak Aramaic. But if he did, he wouldn't be a very effective prophet, would he?
Yes but there is a line that is drawn where opinions can become absurb. Again in the latter portion of your assumption you assume Jesus will primarily commuicate in one language. Any person of divine providence I would imagine would be given the ability by God to communicate to all peoples in all languages otherwise how effective is God's communication (through prophets) to humans if his prophets can only speak one language?
Ron Webb: Well, you tell me. Were you told to prostrate by Allah, either directly or in the Quran? Or were you told by a man?
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 3:48pm
Israfil wrote:
Jesus followed the hygienic practices of his times
How do you know? |
I don't of course, but it's a safe assumption. Certainly no one at that time could have come close to our standards. They simply didn't have the technology.
Yes but there is a line that is drawn where opinions can become absurb. Again in the latter portion of your assumption you assume Jesus will primarily commuicate in one language. Any person of divine providence I would imagine would be given the ability by God to communicate to all peoples in all languages otherwise how effective is God's communication (through prophets) to humans if his prophets can only speak one language? |
I would imagine not. Is there any evidence that Jesus spoke anything other than Aramaic? Did Muhammad speak anything other than Arabic? Did Allah Himself reveal the Quran in any other language?
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 22 February 2008 at 5:34am
Ron Webb wrote:
poga wrote:
who is malchezadek |
I give up. Who was he?
who is this god who is doing what he is doing to sarah |
There is only one God, poga. What's your point?
|
yes indeed there is only one ALLAH and Jesus is the Prophet of ALLAH
do you believe this
if not then tell clearly what you believe in
------------- awal
|
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 22 February 2008 at 6:59am
Ron Webb wrote:
I would imagine not. Is there any evidence that Jesus spoke anything other than Aramaic? Did Muhammad speak anything other than Arabic? Did Allah Himself reveal the Quran in any other language? |
I think language is something of a non sequitur when it comes to the Creator. His communication is more powerful than mortal language. Language evolves and changes.
You can believe in the natural evolution of language or even the Tower of Babel, but for the Creator of All, language is not an issue.
Really, using language to communicate with mankind is like using sign language with a baby before they are verbal. You can teach a child to ask for more, ask for milk, make a sign for hungry MONTHS before they understand those words. We are just as babes to God. Language to him is only a way to make us understand.
God revealed the Quran to Muhammed, who spoke Arabic. He gave the Torah to Moses who spoke Hebrew. He gave the Gospels to Jesus who spoke Aramaic.
The only difference is the commandment to preserve the Quran in its original language. Look at the messes made by the translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin to English....I really think the preservation of the original script has been a blessing to Islam.
As we find fragments of our scriptures in the sands of the deserts and see the words in Hebrew, Aramaic and the original Greek, we have new discoveries of lots scriptures. However, the Muslims only need to walk to their bookshelf.
I marvel at times when I look at my own bookshelf and see the various scriptures sitting there...to think how mankind has treated those precious revelations. Its no wonder we need repentance and mercy from our Lord.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 22 February 2008 at 4:39pm
Angela wrote:
I think language is something of a non sequitur when it comes to the Creator. His communication is more powerful than mortal language. Language evolves and changes. |
I agree, and that brings me back to my point. I really don't think God cares what language, or what body language, a person uses to express their beliefs. The important thing is that it is sincere and meaningful to the person him/herself. God will understand regardless. That's how I see it anyway.
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 7:24am
Your right, although I see the wisdom in preserving the Quran in its original form, I do not think prayer and supplications need to be in Arabic. Personally, I think that's the arrogance of the people, not a part of the religion. Its no different than the Roman Church demanding scriptures and mass be in Latin.
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 1:19pm
Angela wrote:
Your right, although I see the wisdom in preserving the Quran in its original form, I do not think prayer and supplications need to be in Arabic. Personally, I think that's the arrogance of the people, not a part of the religion. Its no different than the Roman Church demanding scriptures and mass be in Latin. |
our AZAAN the prayer call will forever be in arabic
our Namaaz will forever be with QURANIC sura therefore forever in arabic
our DUA is in the language of our heart and god understand the heart of stone
our Prophet said for reciting each letter of QURAN we will get 10 SAWAB
and that's in ALIF LAM MIM not a l m
..................................................
MARK OF YOUR IGNORANCE IS THE COMMENT YOU MAKE
MARK OF YOUR IGNORANCE IS WHEN YOU REJECT THE TRUTH AND ACCEPT THE FAKE...Poga Humayun Dundiwala
------------- awal
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 1:28pm
Ron Webb wrote:
Angela wrote:
I think language is something of a non sequitur when it comes to the Creator. His communication is more powerful than mortal language. Language evolves and changes. |
I agree, and that brings me back to my point. I really don't think God cares what language, or what body language, a person uses to express their beliefs. The important thing is that it is sincere and meaningful to the person him/herself. God will understand regardless. That's how I see it anyway.
if ALLAH does not care about language than why every GALAXY is forming in the SEFIROTH fashion of ARABIC MEEM |
------------- awal
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 6:36pm
poga wrote:
our Prophet said for reciting each letter of QURAN we will get 10 SAWAB |
Oh, but that can't be right -- ten is not part of the Fibonacci sequence!
poga wrote:
if ALLAH does not care about language than why every GALAXY is forming in the SEFIROTH fashion of ARABIC MEEM |
Galaxies come in all sorts of shapes, poga, and if you want to know why you need to study astrophysics, not Arabic. And not the Quran, either.
It's a shame, really. The Muslim world used to be foremost in the study of astronomy, among many other sciences. Our understanding of Allah's creation has increased dramatically since then, but unfortunately Dar al-Islam has not kept pace. The above may be part of the reason for that.
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 24 February 2008 at 12:01am
Language can not be a limit for Men of God who have the mission to guide people. If prophets were talking using a specific language of the region and the time they were living, we can not conclude all of them had not the ability, by Allah, of knowing other languages. If God wants, then it will not be a problem or a complex task.
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 24 February 2008 at 6:41am
Perhaps we should see the reason why the Quran came down in Arabic. Why the Quran is read by millions all over the world in Arabic. If English is the language of this world, Arabic is the language of The Creator. In fact among all the languages in the world Arabic is the most concise and beautiful language. Any Muslim can join in any mosque all over the world and pray together as one in one Jumaah, or community, in one language that is Arabic. This language is the language of unity for Muslims. Any Muslim can open the Quran in any mosque and read the same surah or chapter in the same language that is Arabic. The basic prayers in Arabic is so simple that even a new Muslim has got no problem reciting it.
This is a sign of Allah's Love and Mercy. He wants to make things simple for Muslims all over the world. He promised to safeguard The Quran in its original form till the last man on earth. And Alhamdulillah, till now the Quran is intact in its originality without anyone ever had a chance to create a better one than that.
The language of personal prayers is of course understood by God. After all He is the Creator. We are all His creations. He loves each and everyone of us no matter what race or language we are from. He only requires us to accept Him as Himself, a Supreme Being without any partners or associations, without any beginning and no end. Associating Him with another of His creations is an insult to His Majesty.
Perhaps we should question why Quran? Why not the Bible, why not the Torah or other scriptures that He sent before.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 February 2008 at 10:13am
Thanks for that message, Nur_Ilahi. It's an interesting way of looking at it. What I think you're saying is that Arabic enhances the cohesiveness of the Muslim worldwide community. It does that at great expense, IMHO, by isolating Muslims from the rest of the world; but I suppose you might see that as a good thing too.
Nur_Ilahi wrote:
Perhaps we should question why Quran? Why not the Bible, why not the Torah or other scriptures that He sent before. |
I'm not sure if this what you meant, but it does raise the question, why didn't Abraham and Jesus and all the others speak Arabic? The obvious answer to me is that any language will do. You use whatever language gets the message across. I'm quite sure that if Mohammad spoke English or Hebrew or whatever, the Quran would have been revealed to him in that language. There's nothing magical about Arabic.
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 24 February 2008 at 10:22am
Nur_Ilahi : 'If English is the language of this world, Arabic is the language of The Creator. '
Adam and Eve spoke Adamic. Are you suggesting that they did not speak with God? Are you suggesting that no Old Testament(Bible) prophets and messengers did not speak to God, nor He to them? (The original Old Testament was written mainly in Hebrew, with some Aramaic, while the original New Testament was written in Greek.) Until the event of the tower of babel, all humans spoke one language. Because of their unfaithfulness to God there was a confusion of tongues, hence a good explanation why we have so many languages today.
The Qur'an was written in Arabic because the Prophet Muhammed spoke Arabic. I am not disputing that Arabic is the language to unite muslims, however I know many can read Arabic, but have no idea what they are reading. So it would seem reasonable to read it translated into your own language. Like the Bible and other scriptures, the Qur'an then is liable to errors during translation, which would explain why it is important if you can to read it in Arabic.
Allah does not only protect muslims in this world. To think otherwise is pure ignorance or naivety. He speaks to His chosen messengers in the language they understand.
To learn the Islamic prayer in Arabic, I would imagine any new muslim would first learn it in their own language. I certainly did. To then learn Arabic is commendable, if possible. But to read the Qu'ran and not know what you are reading is not helpful, if you want to understand Islam.
The world is for everyone, not only muslims.
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 24 February 2008 at 11:40am
All languages are from Allah.. there are Messengers who speak a specific language.
i think it comes down to people want to feel "special." It is very common all over the place.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 6:03am
Hi Ron,
It does that at great expense, IMHO, by isolating Muslims from the rest of the world; but I suppose you might see that as a good thing too.
Not at all. Perhaps, most non-Muslim do not understand that putting Allah first is paramount. In other words our deeds or actions centred is in our religion. Others come second. So if other non-Muslims who thinks that we are isolating ourselves from the outside world, they are wrong. We are only putting what is the utmost importance for us that is Allah.
As we know God the Creator created everything whether good or bad. As He is All Knowing, He chose the best of His creations among languages for humankind that will last till the end of the world. All other prophets excluding Muhammad was sent to their own people, their community whereas Muhammad was sent for the whole of mankind. In Arabic Rahmatan lil alameen. Mercy for the whole world.
There's nothing magical about Arabic. There is indeed something magical about Arabic especially the Quranic Arabic � pure unadultered language. Just by reading the Quran even without knowing the meaning, can give a kind of peacefulness to the soul. Perhaps it is difficult for non-believers to understand this, but this is a fact.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 6:06am
Salam Martha,
We do not know what language Adam and Eve spoke, but for sure, any language that they spoke is understood by God. Always remember, He is the Creator of everything, of course He understands and He knows whether we say it aloud or keep it secret in the deepest of our hearts.
Unlike other scriptures, which had lost its original copy, Quran is still intact. If God The Greatest wanted to preserve the Torah or the Injeel (Bible), He as the Greatest, could have done that, but He had Quran in mind, therefore He let the Torah and the Injeel got lost or corrupted because the LAST Scripture of all will definitely be protected by Him as He had assured Himself. He is afterall Al-Muhaymin - The Protector.
Of course during translation there maybe human errors that is why it is very important to have the original one on hand for anyone to refer anytime.
Allah does not only protect muslims in this world. To think otherwise is pure ignorance or naivety. He speaks to His chosen messengers in the language they understand. Of course Allah does not protect only Muslims. He created everything equally for everyone. No matter what race or religion. He created air for us to breathe, water to drink, food to eat, does that not show His Mercy for the whole of mankind? He gives all these for free. He only requested that we do not associate Him with a creation of His. Because that is the sole salvation for the hereafter.
Is that too much to ask for? I do not think so.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 8:56am
Arabic is not God's language. It was the language of the Prophet he gave the Quran.
Now, That being said. Arabic is a beautiful language. Of all the one's I have studied, though, I would not say its the MOST beautiful. I actually find Japanese the most beautiful and Russian the most passionate.
There is no "language" of Heaven. Its pure arrogance to think any one culture's language is divine.
Arabic is a Semitic language, it is a child language that evolved out of more ancient languages. Its an Afro-Asiatic language whereas most European languages and Indian languages are Indo-European.
I once heard that Arabic is the language of Jannah. No. The language of Heaven will be so perfect, no mistakes can be made. Arabic is still capible of miscommunication or there would not be such division among Muslims.
I think the preservation of the Quranic Arabic is an important thing. Do not get me wrong, that is important. It allows for translational errors to be corrected as two languages are better connected. On the other hand, we wait for more discoveries to be able to do this with the Torah and Gospels.
But, there is a GIANT difference between understanding the Miracle of the preservation of the integrity of the scriptures in their pure, unaltered form and making a jump to calling it the language of heaven.
Adam spoke the original language, Moses spoke Hebrew, Jesus and John the Baptist spoke Aramaic, John the Revelator spoke Greek. The reason the Quran is in Arabic is because of Muhammed, not God. God spoke through Gabriel to Muhammed to give a message first to the Arabic tribes and then to the world. It had to be understandable to the original recipients.
If one takes the explanation that Arabic is the language of Jannah, then it is only because its the language of the Quran and through that revelation you get to heaven. However, once you get there, its not going to be Arabic.....communication will be so pure and so simple that no human would comprehend it now, its not going to be anything like what we use to communicate now.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 4:21pm
Nur_Ilahi wrote:
Perhaps, most non-Muslim do not understand that putting Allah first is paramount. In other words our deeds or actions centred is in our religion. Others come second. |
To me, people come first. God is all-powerful. He does not need my help, or my support, or anything else from me; but there are plenty of people who do. I am sure that a loving God, if He exists, would feel the same way.
There is indeed something magical about Arabic especially the Quranic Arabic � pure unadultered language. Just by reading the Quran even without knowing the meaning, can give a kind of peacefulness to the soul. Perhaps it is difficult for non-believers to understand this, but this is a fact. |
It is a "fact" that is claimed by a great many other religions as well. Chanting meaningless sounds may indeed induce a trance-like state of consciousness, but there's nothing magical about it.
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 6:50pm
Ron Webb wrote:
Nur_Ilahi wrote:
Perhaps, most non-Muslim do not understand that putting Allah first is paramount. In other words our deeds or actions centred is in our religion. Others come second. |
To me, people come first. God is all-powerful. He does not need my help, or my support, or anything else from me; but there are plenty of people who do. I am sure that a loving God, if He exists, would feel the same way.
yes indeed people comes first because we are not angels dogs and cat
but it does not mean god cannot come at all
There is indeed something magical about Arabic especially the Quranic Arabic � pure unadultered language. Just by reading the Quran even without knowing the meaning, can give a kind of peacefulness to the soul. Perhaps it is difficult for non-believers to understand this, but this is a fact. |
indeed it is magical see cloud formes in the name of MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim and thats in ARABIC why no other
It is a "fact" that is claimed by a great many other religions as well. Chanting meaningless sounds may indeed induce a trance-like state of consciousness, but there's nothing magical about it.
That why music is haram and we abhore SufiSwines and theirs Sama |
------------- awal
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Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 9:13pm
Angela wrote:
Arabic is not God's language. It was the language of the Prophet he gave the Quran.
Now, That being said. Arabic is a beautiful language. Of all the one's I have studied, though, I would not say its the MOST beautiful. I actually find Japanese the most beautiful and Russian the most passionate.
There is no "language" of Heaven. Its pure arrogance to think any one culture's language is divine.
Arabic is a Semitic language, it is a child language that evolved out of more ancient languages. Its an Afro-Asiatic language whereas most European languages and Indian languages are Indo-European.
I once heard that Arabic is the language of Jannah. No. The language of Heaven will be so perfect, no mistakes can be made. Arabic is still capible of miscommunication or there would not be such division among Muslims.
I think the preservation of the Quranic Arabic is an important thing. Do not get me wrong, that is important. It allows for translational errors to be corrected as two languages are better connected. On the other hand, we wait for more discoveries to be able to do this with the Torah and Gospels.
But, there is a GIANT difference between understanding the Miracle of the preservation of the integrity of the scriptures in their pure, unaltered form and making a jump to calling it the language of heaven.
Adam spoke the original language, Moses spoke Hebrew, Jesus and John the Baptist spoke Aramaic, John the Revelator spoke Greek. The reason the Quran is in Arabic is because of Muhammed, not God. God spoke through Gabriel to Muhammed to give a message first to the Arabic tribes and then to the world. It had to be understandable to the original recipients.
If one takes the explanation that Arabic is the language of Jannah, then it is only because its the language of the Quran and through that revelation you get to heaven. However, once you get there, its not going to be Arabic.....communication will be so pure and so simple that no human would comprehend it now, its not going to be anything like what we use to communicate now.
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Peace to all!
Check this link: http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/aramaic_language.html - - The Aramaic Language
Clip:
Biblical Aramaic
Aramaic displaced Hebrew for many purposes among the Jews, a fact reflected in the Bible, where portions of Ezra and Daniel are in Aramaic. Some of the best known stories in biblical literature, including that of Belshazzar�s feast with the famous "handwriting on the wall" are in Aramaic.
If the "handwriting on the wall" is in Aramaic, then who wrote it? Some one from heaven! Maybe thats one of the language they spoke in heaven. And if that is the language Jesus (S) spoke I wander what "word" is for "God" in Aramaic?
You can find out by clicking on this link: Aramaic Lexicon and Concordance Then type in the word "God".
This is another verse where God Almighty was praise in Heaven:
Rev.19:4 http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532 - And the http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5064 - four http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532 - And http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1501 - twenty http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4245 - elders http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532 - And the http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5064 - four http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2226 - beasts fell http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4098 - down http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532 - And http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4352 - worshipped http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316 - God that http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2521 - sat http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1909 - on the http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2362 - throne, http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3004 - saying , http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=281 - Amen; http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=239 - Alleluia.
TNC
------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 1:11am
Nur_Ilahi wrote:
(With my comments in blue)
Salam Martha,
We do not know what language Adam and Eve spoke, but for sure, any language that they spoke is understood by God. Always remember, He is the Creator of everything, of course He understands and He knows whether we say it aloud or keep it secret in the deepest of our hearts.( True. )
Unlike other scriptures, which had lost its original copy, Quran is still intact. If God The Greatest wanted to preserve the Torah or the Injeel (Bible), He as the Greatest, could have done that, but He had Quran in mind, therefore He let the Torah and the Injeel got lost or corrupted because the LAST Scripture of all will definitely be protected by Him as He had assured Himself. He is afterall Al-Muhaymin - The Protector. ( True )
Of course during translation there maybe human errors that is why it is very important to have the original one on hand for anyone to refer anytime.
( Very True )
Allah does not only protect muslims in this world. To think otherwise is pure ignorance or naivety. He speaks to His chosen messengers in the language they understand. Of course Allah does not protect only Muslims. He created everything equally for everyone. No matter what race or religion. He created air for us to breathe, water to drink, food to eat, does that not show His Mercy for the whole of mankind? He gives all these for free. He only requested that we do not associate Him with a creation of His. Because that is the sole salvation for the hereafter. ( True. Allah is Rehman. That means he grants all benefits to all living creature whether they be man or bird or beasts or atheists, without their asking for it, without their believing in the God (Allah). There is no need of any effort or belief for this attribute.
He has another name too i.e. Al-Raheem. That is the benefactor of the believers only, humans only. They may be Muslims or christians or Jews or hindus. They should be believers in God and they should be praying to their God. This attribute does not do any good to any atheist or other animals. The animals and atheists do not benefit from Al-Raheem Allah.
Effort or belief in God and some deeds are necessary to benefit from this attribute. )
Is that too much to ask for? I do not think so.
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There is more to it, about languages and scriptures in my next post.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 1:25am
Just talking about LOVE does not mean anything. The Mercy of Allah is a good indication of his love for all creatures. Allah is Merciful (two kinds of Mercy is mentioned in my above post). That means He (Allah) loves all the creature. It is due to His Loving Mercy that we are all living.
Love should be justified. Allah is Just and loves Justice too.
About the languages, Arabic is a very old language. It is infact the mother of all languages from which all languages evolved. Believe it or not.
Now come to Quran and other scriptures, without any disrespect (prejudice) to any other faith, I may present the superiority of Quran and Arabic over other books and languages as follows:
The Quran is in Arabic language. It states that it is revealed in Arabic language, clear Arabic language. The other books do not state in which language they were revealed. The name of the book (Quran) is mentioned in the Quran itself. The other books do not tell their name (Torah or bible) in their own books. Please think over these two points. Bible does not tell in which language it was revealed to Jesus a.s.
This is the beginning. There is more in next post soon, Insha Allah.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 1:40am
Before Muhammad (s.a.w.s.), prophets had come in every nation. They heard the word of God in their own language. The prophets were raised from their own people and not from a foreign land. Their scope of duty was limited to their own people.
Same was the case with Moses a.s. and Jesus a.s. It is wrong for the christians to say that Jesus had come to preach to all the world people. He had only been sent to improve the lot of Jews. He himself knew it and did not allow his disciples to preach to any non-Jew. Much of that has been mentioned in the later bible (called new testament).
Jesus mission was for the Jews only. His own people (Jews) rejected him so he departed after giving the good news of another prophet after him. Injeel means good news. In what language was the Injeel, nobody knows. At least the Injeel does not tell in which language it was revealed. The mission of all prophets before Muhammad was for their own people only and it was not for ever. The bible does not say its message is for all people and for all times. Let us take the benefit of these things from the actual books, the scriptures themselves. They are all quiet on these subjects.
The message of Quran was revealed in Arabic and the prophet was told to announce that he was a messenger for the mankind. (For all these statements, I can easily quote direct verses from the Quran as a proof.)
Because the mission of the previous prophets was not for all mankind and not for all times, it was not necessary to be preserved. So the originals got lost. It was all a pure message from God to the messengers. Nothing was wrong in it. It was always a message of love from God. But none of that is available in its original form now. I hope I am right. Thanks, more to follow,if required.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 5:56am
minuteman, I really don't see the distinction you're trying to make. The Quran is for Muslims, just as the Torah is for Jews and the Bible's New Testament is for Christians. Anyone can be a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Christian, simply by professing belief in the corresponding scripture.
The fact that the Bible has multiple authors and multiple languages is one of the things that enhances its credibility. In its pages we have the testimony of many independant witnesses, all corroborating one another. The entire religion of Islam, on the other hand, seems to rely on the testimony of just one man.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 6:05am
minuteman wrote:
Jesus mission was for the Jews only. |
John 3:16 wrote:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. |
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 6:08am
Arabic is not God's language. All languages are God's language. Everything belongs to Him, He is the Creator (Al-Khaliq).
It had to be understandable to the original recipients. Exactly! The question we should ask ourselves is why Arabic? Why not Japanese or Russian?
If one takes the explanation that Arabic is the language of Jannah, then it is only because its the language of the Quran and through that revelation you get to heaven. However, once you get there, its not going to be Arabic.....communication will be so pure and so simple that no human would comprehend it now, its not going to be anything like what we use to communicate now. I agree wholeheartedly. The language of Jannah is the language of the soul. Do souls have a language? Indeed they have. For example when we communicate silently with each other in a crowded area, there seems to be an understanding even if we do not know each other or we are separated far apart. Who is it that is speaking noiselessly if not the souls?
The power of the souls is so unimaginable.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 6:17am
Ron Webb wrote:
Bible has multiple authors and multiple languages is one of the things that enhances its credibility. In its pages we have the testimony of many independant witnesses, all corroborating one another. The entire religion of Islam, on the other hand, seems to rely on the testimony of just one man. |
Multiple authors and multiple languages enhances credibility? But I thought too many cooks spoil the broth? In fact I believe too many authors will lead to confusion and contradictions as had been proven by Western scholars regarding the errors and contradictions in the Bible.
You said that the entire religion on the other hand, seems to rely on the testimony of just one man. Right indeed! But then you must question yourself, what kind of man was Muhammad? If you were to believe the anti-Muslim websites that says so much of Muhammad as a paedophile, a terrorist, then of course, Islam will be garbage to you.
Why did God AlMighty chose Muhammad? Why Muhammad?
There are of course reasons behind the choosing of Muhammad as the last Messenger.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 8:18am
Ron Webb wrote:
minuteman, I really don't see the distinction you're trying to make. The Quran is for Muslims, just as the Torah is for Jews and the Bible's New Testament is for Christians. Anyone can be a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Christian, simply by professing belief in the corresponding scripture.
The fact that the Bible has multiple authors and multiple languages is one of the things that enhances its credibility. In its pages we have the testimony of many independant witnesses, all corroborating one another. The entire religion of Islam, on the other hand, seems to rely on the testimony of just one man.
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Ron, Please don't think Quran is the testimony of one man. There were many scribes involved who believed it to be the word of God. They knew they were writing the real revealed words of god (kalaam Allah). It was being written down immediately and accurately.
It was spread over a period of 23 years, not just three years incidents written by unknown four people after 70-100 years. Your post is a typical idea of any christian we have heard before. But your post has helped me to understand things better. Thanks to you.
I will Insha Allah get back to you about all that. We are going to discuss the word of God too. Please wait.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 10:15am
Nur_Ilahi wrote:
Multiple authors and multiple languages enhances credibility? But I thought too many cooks spoil the broth? |
Religion is not a broth. If we were talking about making something, as opposed to just witnessing and testifying to it, then you would have a point; but surely you're not saying that the Quran is something Muhammad "cooked up" on his own.
Any journalist will tell you that multiple independent sources are required for a credible story. There will inevitably be minor discrepancies among sources, but the degree to which they corroborate one another is the best measure of credibility. Having only one source means that we simply have to take that source's word for it -- and even an honest and sincere witness can be honestly and sincerely mistaken.
Why did God AlMighty chose Muhammad? Why Muhammad? |
What makes you think that God chose Muhammad? Other than Muhammad's own testimony, that is.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 10:35am
minuteman wrote:
Ron, Please don't think Quran is the testimony of one man. There were many scribes involved who believed it to be the word of God. They knew they were writing the real revealed words of god (kalaam Allah). It was being written down immediately and accurately. |
The Quran was recorded by multiple scribes and I've no doubt that they recorded Muhammad's words accurately; but they are just reporters, not independent sources. There is only one (human) source, and that is Muhammad.
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 12:11pm
Nur_Ilahi wrote:
Arabic is not God's language. All languages are God's language. Everything belongs to Him, He is the Creator (Al-Khaliq).
It had to be understandable to the original recipients. Exactly! The question we should ask ourselves is why Arabic? Why not Japanese or Russian?
If one takes the explanation that Arabic is the language of Jannah, then it is only because its the language of the Quran and through that revelation you get to heaven. However, once you get there, its not going to be Arabic.....communication will be so pure and so simple that no human would comprehend it now, its not going to be anything like what we use to communicate now. I agree wholeheartedly. The language of Jannah is the language of the soul. Do souls have a language? Indeed they have. For example when we communicate silently with each other in a crowded area, there seems to be an understanding even if we do not know each other or we are separated far apart. Who is it that is speaking noiselessly if not the souls?
The power of the souls is so unimaginable.
| Arabic is not God's language.
how do you know ARABIC is not ALLAH'S language
do you have any proof
The power of soul might be so unimaginable to you
as for other they do not need to imagine they know it for real as the force of life
------------- awal
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 8:04pm
Ron Webb wrote:
but surely you're not saying that the Quran is something Muhammad "cooked up" on his own.
Why did God AlMighty chose Muhammad? Why Muhammad? |
What makes you think that God chose Muhammad? Other than Muhammad's own testimony, that is.
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First of all Ron, I would love to know how much is your knowledge of Muhammad the Last Prophet is and whether that this whole wide world has a Creator.
Salam.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 February 2008 at 8:44pm
Nur_Ilahi wrote:
First of all Ron, I would love to know how much is your knowledge of Muhammad the Last Prophet is and whether that this whole wide world has a Creator. |
Are you changing the subject?
I know little about Mohammad, except that extravagant but unverifiable claims have been made about him -- similar to claims which have been made from time to time about a great many other religious leaders.
As for Creators and creation myths, there are thousands of them. Every culture has at least one, often several. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth for a partial list. I see no reason to choose among them. Any of them could be true, but IMHO the odds are pretty slim.
So what makes you think that God chose Muhammad?
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 27 February 2008 at 2:40am
Regarding the language, I think there is no MOST beautiful language in the world. I see any language has its own beauty. However, I am a Muslim who is not an Arab but have been learning Arabic and will be learning too.
I will not ignore the native Arabic language of Quran, speeches of Mohammad (sawa) and 12 leaders, and their books written in Arabic to go directly to any translation. Otherwise i think i will miss many things either in meaning or even the beautiful linguistic structure that are used in those words. Therefore, I will benefit from reading them in Arabic very much and suggest you all to learn Arabic and use it. This would be one of very useful ways to benefit from the motion of guidance and AlMahdi (as) whom I talked about earlier.
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 27 February 2008 at 5:26am
Please tell us when you told about Mahdi a.s. in which thread? Or if it was brief then post a short note again. Thanks.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 27 February 2008 at 6:31am
I have no part in argunig what is the "most beautiful language" as it is quite a subjective opinion. My mother was partial to French.
I will not ignore the native Arabic language of Quran, speeches of Mohammad (sawa) and 12 leaders, and their books written in Arabic to go directly to any translation. Otherwise i think i will miss many things either in meaning or even the beautiful linguistic structure that are used in those words. Therefore, I will benefit from reading them in Arabic very much and suggest you all to learn Arabic and use it. This would be one of very useful ways to benefit from the motion of guidance and AlMahdi (as) whom I talked about earlier.
And really, even if I learn "Arabic" i still will, in my head translate into English in my head. Unless I give up English, I will always "think" in English. So some translations will always be missed. Its like the Native peoples of northern areas. .have many different words for snow. Even if I was told them, my brian will translate them into English, words it knows as reference points.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 27 February 2008 at 7:47am
Please tell us when you told about Mahdi a.s. in which thread?
You can find it in the present topic in page 2 and some in pages 3 and 4.
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 27 February 2008 at 9:00am
And really, even if I learn "Arabic" i still will, in my head translate into English in my head.
Probably I do not feel or get the meaning as good as a native when I am reading a text written in my second language. But I can not even compare it to the case that I would not know that language at all and only read a translation. These two situations are not identical, are they?
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 27 February 2008 at 11:07am
we know ALLAH speaks as for with MUSA Alahi Wa Sallim
Now as for what language he speaks in heaven
No answer just one question why not ARABIC
We know ALLAH will speak therefore there will be transmission of sound
Now this sound does it have to be in Martian or benagli or english
i am not giving any answer just one question why not ARABIC
------------- awal
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 28 February 2008 at 10:07am
Ron Webb wrote:
minuteman wrote:
Ron, Please don't think Quran is the testimony of one man. There were many scribes involved who believed it to be the word of God. They knew they were writing the real revealed words of god (kalaam Allah). It was being written down immediately and accurately. |
The Quran was recorded by multiple scribes and I've no doubt that they recorded Muhammad's words accurately; but they are just reporters, not independent sources. There is only one (human) source, and that is Muhammad. |
Ron, that was another of your mistakes, weak points. You seem to feel that multiple writers would support the book, say like bible. You want the words of men in the book? That is bad. Quran does not have the words of men in it. If the bible has got words of men supporting the incidents then good-bye to that book which will be from men, not from God. You want independent sources and that is bad for any revealed book. Do you understand that point? Now we come to another very important subject, that is the word of God (Kalaam Allah).
The bible is not Kalaam Allah (The spoken word from God). It is only the Quran that is Kalaam Allah. It says so in the Quran itself that it is Kalaam Allah. No other book in the world is kalaam Allah. Even though the bible may contain what God said or desired and the meaning may all be there, same. But it is not in actual words of God.
Another thing is Kalimah (The special single Sentence projecting, describing a faith). The Muslims have a Kalimah "La Ilaha Illa Allah. Muhammad Rasool Allah". There is no God but Allah. Muhammad is a messenger of Allah." That is unique sentence for the entire Muslim Ummah (nation). The other faiths, Hindus, Christians and Jews do not have any kalimah. They never had it.
So, we note that only the Muslims have got the actual words of God and only the Muslims have a kalimah. I have already explained that only Quran tells in which language it was revealed and only the Quran tells its own name (the name of the book) in itself. I don't know if the bible calls itself a book in itself. Is there any verse in the bible OT or NT that it is a book??? Quran tells us that they are books. They do not say so themselves. Their writing, their compilation, their preparation is nowhere described in the books itself. They don't call themselves books !!
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 February 2008 at 5:57pm
minuteman, I don't want multiple writers/reporters. I want multiple witnesses. I want more than one person who can testify, to his own knowledge, that the Message is authentic, i.e., that it came from Allah Himself.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't believe Muhammad. I'm just wondering why you choose to believe him in particular, rather than the Buddha, or Joseph Smith (or Mormon fame), or any number of others who have claimed to have had direct knowledge of God?
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 29 February 2008 at 1:35am
Bismillah Va Billaah
Ron, this is a good question. But do you really want to know the
answer? I mean are you really looking for the truth? on one side you say "I know little about Mohammad", on the other side you say "the odds are slim". If you know little about Mohammad (sawa), be honest and do not judge.
Do not waste your time sitting and asking questions. Be dynamic and go through the history and references. Try to know Allah and his prophets. Try to know Mohammad (sawa), more and more, the way he lived, the words of him, the words of Allah in Quran, and the most important thing:
be honest to Allah if you have no doubt to his existence. Ask him deeply in heart to show you the right way.
But if you are not sure that Allah exists, then try to know Allah at first before going to prophets. By this non-systematic method you will be always twisting around yourself. Be honest and start with a smooth heart. It may take a long time but the result is that you can conclude what you live for, Enshaa Allaah. Then you can experience a life of no doubt with a treasure of happiness, light and guidance.
Wassalaam
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