Assalamualaikum.

Dear Sisters,

I believe you all have heard of male circumcision, however have you heard of female circumcision in Islam? I mean the Islamic way? Not the cruel way of how some of the African women did on themselves, but the Muslim way.

We, women in my community, most of us had it, but it was done to us out of blind faith. The parents said so, so we had to do it.

In fact when my daughter was just a few days old, the old midwife did it herself. It was simple and fast and my little baby did not cry at all.

Only lately, perhaps a year so ago that I read about the hikmah or wisdom behind these practice. MashaAllah! After knowing the wisdom behind it, what should I say but Allah Really Knows Best. He is indeed Al-Aleem.

Here is a link for those who wants to find more about it.

Till next time, Salam.

 I have not seen or visited the sites. I do not find any example of female circumcision. Hazrat Ibraheem was told to circumsize all the male children. So it is done. I do not know if in Arabia, at the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. there was any such practice to circumcise the females. If there was no such thing then I would say that it is all a bad practice and nothing to do with the religion.

 But let other friends speak about it.

ASA Sr,

I have heard of it and know some sr's that have had it done like your daughter in infancy. In Egypt many women have had it done but in my husbands village most stopped this practice around my generation 30' almost 40' something years ago.

Mash'Allah nice links very informative. As many things for sr's it is considered an honor but not obligatory.

The one sr' from the states that I know that had it done in infancy experienced painful childbirth with all of her children. Not that we don't all experience painful childbirth with/without it but hers was extreme. I don't know if that is the case with all women in this situation but she did grow up in an Islamic country.

 Not the cruel way of how some of the African women did on themselves....

Why is female circumcision suddenly African? Arabs, Pakis Afghans are known to have done such practices.

I still don't think bodily wise, why females have to do it regardless whether the procedure is painless or not.

In this matter, it is wise to follow the interests of the female: if the clitoris is large, then part of it should be removed, otherwise it should be left alone. This size of the clitoris will vary from woman to woman, and there may be differences between those from hot climates and those from cold climates

How does one know if the clitoris is too "arge" exactly what does that mean?

And how do you know how to be so precise without proper surgical instruments.. on a baby it must be quite small..

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse. 

How will you know at birth that this will or will not happen and then some men won't like it?

Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire. 

Now this is interesting. First of all.. what is excessive? Since any relationship is a balance.. and many women are just not that interested... not sure I have hear about too many women having "excessive" desire. Hack, half the time the women don't want sex and the men do..

I am not questioning the hadith.. but the other points of view given. I wish there were more science based studies to support their ideas. You'd have to study women in both categories-circumcised and noncircumsized women.

As we know nowadays, young girls have high sexual desires that I wonder why this is so.

Perhaps it is in the food that they take, perhaps with the over exposure or too much freedom in boy-girl relationship. or perhaps it could be this reason behind it.

Here I quote another article.

 All this applies to men. But what is the reason underlying the circumcision of girls, which is applied in some Islamic countries? The first reason is the statement of Muhammad: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women." http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/reveal/r5405f21.htm - (3) The second reason lies in the supposition that circumcision makes a woman more enjoyable, provided that it is practised moderately. Umm `Atiyya the Ansarite narrated that a woman used to circumcise in Medina, and the Prophet said to her, "Do not overdo it, because this makes woman more favourable and it is more agreeable for the husband." http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/reveal/r5405f21.htm - (4) As to the third reason why a female should be circumcised, it is to "diminish her lust", and to "tone down the sexual desire of the woman." http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/reveal/r5405f21.htm - (5)

http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/reveal/r5405et7.htm - http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/reveal/r5405et7.htm

This practice was not new to the Arab society at that time. Muhammad Rasulullah knew about it and he did not put a stop to it. If it was harmful, he would have put a stop to it.

I agree that there should be some scientific studies that can confirm this practice. Like the male circumcision that is now proven to be healthy for men, there is a possibility that this practice is also has its own benefits.

Salam.

 I had posted that the circumcision was for the male children only. Allah knew very well and ordered something. Men cannot be wiser than Him. I had given good reasons to forget the practice of female circumcision. But I see the matter is being pursued somehow.

 Even the prophet s.a.w.s. is involved into supporting it. That is not possible. As a lost resort, I would ask the friends here how many of the ladies of the Ummah were circumcised?? Were any of the wives of the prophet s.a.w.s. circumcised?? Was his daughter Fatima circumcised?? I am sure the answer is NO.

 Angela has given good reasons to prove that it is not an Islamic act and not necessary. There is no need to look for any medical benefits in female circumcision. Now I will take up the hadith which is being presented, shown below:

 The first reason is the statement of Muhammad: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."

 This Hadith does not refer to any circumcision of the female. It simply states that circumcision is a must for the male and that is an honor for the female. That means the circumcision of the males is an honor and good for the female from the point of cleanliness and comfort. It says nothing about the circumcision of the female. Please some one should try to give their comments about this hadith. It appears that it is being misunderstood. A circumsized man is an honor for the lady compared to an uncircumsized man.  But only ladies can tell this thing.

Islamic law is well-defined through a tradition of jurisprudence. The sources of that law are, in order of importance: the Qur'an which is the Muslim scripture, the practice of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his community (passed on through traditions called had�th, consensus (which may be census of the scholars or of the entire community--a point of controversy) and ijtih�d or the individual efforts of scholars to attain understanding of the shar�`ah (i.e., the Divine Law) through various tools which I shall not go into here.
 
 

Although there is no reference to circumcision at all in the Qur'an, there is a well-established tradition of male circumcision in Islam as a "sunnah" act (i.e., one following the practice of the Prophet and his companions). There is no mandate at all for female circumcision, however. Although female circumcision is not mandated, one tradition of disputed authenticity permits (but does not encourage) the removal of a minuscule segment of skin from the female prepuce, provided no harm is done. Permitting such a ritual constitutes an act of tolerance by Islamic law for pre-Islamic practices, and may be overruled by the Islamic prohibition against harmful acts. Consider, for example, that Islamic law protects a woman's right to sexual enjoyment, as demonstrated by the fact that a woman has the right to divorce on the grounds that her husband does not provide sexual satisfaction. It follows that Islamic law prohibits clitorodectomy (partial or complete) or infibulation, or any genital mutilation which impairs the woman's ability to enjoy sexual relations.
 
 

People often confuse traditions rooted in local culture with religious requirements. Ethiopians in the United States stand between the Ethiopian culture of their heritage and the American culture of their environment. They cannot and should not be expected to abandon their religion. I do think, however, that the young amongst them, at least, will be willing to abandon old-world cultural practices at odds with their adopted culture when such practices are unsupported by religion.

Types of circumcision:

a) Removal of the hood (or prepuce) of the clitoris. This procedure is, to some degree, analgous to male circumcision since in both cases, no part of the sexual organ is cut off. In both cases also, it is only the foreskin, or outer fold of the skin, which is cut off. Properly done, it is not likely to cause any "matrimonial" problem. This is the type the scholars mentioned is permitted according to the Islamic evidences.

b) Removal of the entire clitoris (clitorectomy) along with part of the labia minora, which is satured together leaving an opening. This is a form of mutilation and is haram (forbidden).

c) Removal of the entire clitoris, labia minora and medial part of the labia majora, with both sides of the female organ stitched together leaving a small opening. This procedure requires tying together the child's legs of nearly three weeks. It is called the Pharaonic procedure and also haram.

2. �For most of the Shafi'i school, circumcision is obligatory upon the women. While the Hanbali school and few scholars of the Shafi'i school hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but Sunnah, while the Hanafi and the Maliki consider it a mere courtesy to the husband. And according to some scholars, female circumcision is customarily done in a hot climate.� [Fiqh al-Islam wa Adillatihi 3/741]

3. Some people quote the following hadith to argue that it is recommended: "Circumcision is a commedable act for men (Sunnah) and is an honorable thing for women (Makromah)." However this hadith is considered da�if (weak) according to the hadith scholars. [Al-Shawkani, Nayl Al-awtar, Dar Al-Jeel, Beirut, 1973, vol. 1, p. 139]

Da�if (weak) hadith cannot be used as evidence in ahkam shariah.

4. There is the following hadith on the subject:

"Cut off only the foreskin (outer fold of skin over the clitoris; the prepuce) but do not cut off deeply (i.e. the clitoris itself), for this is brighter for the face (of the girl) and more favourable with the husband." [Al-Tabarani, quoted in Al-albani, Muhammad N., Silsilat al-Ahadeeth Al-Sahihah, Al Maktab Al-Islami, Beirut, Lebanon, 1983, vol. 2, Hadeeth no. 722, pp. 353-358 espeically pp. 356-257. See also N. keller (translator/editor), The Reliance of the Traveller by Ahmad al-Masri, Modern Printing Press, Dubai, 1991, e 4.3, p. 59.]

5. There is also a Hadith narrated in Ahmad, also in Malik with similar wordings to the effect that if the two areas of circumcision (for a male and female) touch one another, than Ghusl (bathing) is required. This expression simply signified that after the intimate matrimonial relationship, both husband and wife must take a complete bath before they perform their daily prayers. The relevant part of this Hadeeth, however, is its reference to the two circumcised parts. Imam Ahmad uses this Hadeeth as an evidence that women (in Madinah) used to be circumcised. However this does not indicate that it is recommended, simply that it is permitted.

6. It is true that in some Muslim countries some of the people in Egypt and Somalia undertake the form of circumcision that Islam forbids i.e. the cutting off of the entire clitoris (clitorectomy) � however this is due to following traditions rather than Islam.

While the exact origin of female circumcision is not known, "it preceded Christianity and Islam." [Stewart, Rosemary, "Female Circumcision: Implicaitons for North American Nurses, " in Journal of Psychosocial Nursing, vol. 35, no.4, 1997, p. 35] The most radical form of female circumcision (infibulation) is known as the Pharaonic Procedure. This may signify that it may have been practiced long before the rise of Islam, Christianity and possibly Judaism. It is not clear, however, whether this practice originated in Egypt or in some other African countries then spread to Egypt. [Haqa'iq Ilmiyya Hawla Khitan Al-Inaath (in Arabic), Jam'iyyat Tanzeem Al-Usrah, Cairo, 1983, p.7.]

http://tsaqafahislam.com/risala/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=34 - http://tsaqafahislam.com/risala/index.php?option=com_content &task=view&id=24&Itemid=34

I believe that Islam is a religion that stress very much on hygiene. Therefore this practise, even though is not sunnah mu'akaddah but mubah, it should be looked into further. In communities where this is widely practised like mine for example, I have never heard of anything negative about it.

Especially in the context of this age where little girls had shown such a high degree of sexual desire, truly I find it very scary.

Salam.

Salaams Nur,

You have referred twice about the "high degree" of sexual desire of girls.. and this has little to do with "biology" -their clitoris etc. In some cultures people have sex outside of marriage or main partners. That is due to "culture." Getting the hood of the clitoris cut off actually may stimulate the clirotis even more..so...

In fact women actually "peak" in terms of desire in their 30s.  

Having your daughter circumcised will not stop her from having sex with anyone but her husband. What will determine that is her individual circumstance and morals. I am sure there are women in your community who have had this surgery who have not been truly monogamous. Its like saying that circumcised men are more monogomous then noncircumcised men. There is no proven correlation. 

I don't agree that this is the way to "control" women.

And what is wrong with a high degree of sexual desire??

This is the key phrase from her response:

"In communities where this is widely practised like mine"

I don't think all the supported scientific and medical evidence would deter Nur from calling this practice "acceptable." I believe he/she has accepted this practice and will not be convinced. But in commenting on the negativity of high "sexual desire" I've come under the impression that some cultures: Arabs, Pakistanis, Afghans, Malays etc who live in Muslim dominated countries are greatly influenced by the cultural belief that sex especially in open discussion is taboo or those who are perceived to be "oversexual." Like Maryah has said theree is nothing wrong with having a high sexual drive as long as you can maintain your behavior and respect your partner's decision if he/she does not have the same sexual energy as you do.

I find it a continuous contradiction in the Muslim community when I hear Muslims talk big about everything being a gift from God yet we treat sex as a disgusting thing or something that is so nasty to talk about. Me frankly (slightly getting off topic) sex is a beautiful thing and I appreciate the artwork many Hindus draw in many of their literature and scripts regarding sex. Sexual intercourse is the closes thing a man and a woman can get so its important that we appreciate that. But to deter a woman from sexual stimulation by either piercing the flesh or slightly clipping it for the sole reason of deterring sexual desire is an ignorant way of practicing medicine. Men on the other hand are different.

Here is a little scientific fact:

 Although keeping the foreskin is not a big problem, if men remained uncircumcised and do not bathe themselves bacteria can become trapped under the foreskin layer and can cause a possible infection and leaves a nasty odor. Simply put the only reason why circumcision is important in the Muslim community is because of religious practice to mimick the prophet Abraham and his covenant with God (just saying in case many do not know). Women on the other hand I am not so sure. I perceive cutting the prepuce even in proper way (if there is one) still does not deter sexual desire nor can make a woman more hygenic. Remember women have hair in the groin area which, if left unkept can also trap bacteria which can cause a nasty odor just like uncircumcised men.

Simply put, if you do not clean yourself properly even if such practices are done you can still have very bad hygeine which may not make you sexually desirable anyway. Oh by the way ladies don't get ashamed as some of you may say when I talk about this because I do work in the medical field and I've seen it all this is kinda the cut and dry response like Maryah's and Angela.

As we know, Islam very much encourage moderation. Anything we do, we are always to practise moderation. I am sure there are some hikmah or wisdom behind this sunnah practice.

As the article that I linked earlier said, it is to cut excessive libido in a woman. Perhaps with that tiny extra length of the clitoris, women may tend to want sex more often. It is good if she has it with her husband, but what if she is not married, a young growing girl for example. Fornication is haram in Islam, how and where is she going to channel all that desires? Women live longer than men, if a widowed woman suddenly finds no husband, how is she going to find the sexual satisfaction?

Fasting and lots of ibadah (acts of worship) can suppress these desires if one is without husbands/wives. The nafs or lust/deisres will become weaker if the soul/heart is channelled towards God.

As to the subject of high sexual desires, it is not taboo nowadays. With the TV and mass media showing all kinds of sexual acts discreetly or blatantly, we have no choice but to advise our children as to the negative effect of these actions.

Indeed Islam encourage very much hygiene in our everyday life. It is sunnah to shave off our pubic hair, the underarms, wash ourselves each time we move our bowels or pass urine. To take a bath each time we had sex with our husbands. Taking wudu' before our prayers - shows that Islam put a high importance towards hygiene.

In fact hygiene is part of iman (belief).

Salam.

 Nur_Ilahi:

 As we know, Islam very much encourage moderation. Anything we do, we are always to practise moderation. I am sure there are some hikmah or wisdom behind this sunnah practice.

 I am unable to understand whose Sunnah is that. who of the prophets family practiced it? I have no news and no idea. Could we say " I am sure there are some hikmah or wisdom behind this practice."

Nur_Ilahi,

As a male I have to disagree with your presentation of your argument on the basis of claiming hat cutting a minor part of the clitoris to curb sexual drive as sexual drive in itself is not the result of either an elongated penis nor an abnormally large clitoris. I believe Angela explained this perfectly:

Reducing the clitoris does not decrease a woman's sex drive.  The clitoris is a collection of nerve endings that provide stimulation.  However, the actual desire to have sex is triggered by hormones produced in the head and in the ovaries.  Progesterone, Estrogene and others combine to arouse. 

Remember that your  body produces hormones which interact with the brain, primarily the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is the center to many of the bodily drives but more importantly Nur_Ilahi you should know that our sexual drives are greatly increased at puberty. The increase in the production of testoterone (males) and estrogen (females) are not only responsible for the physical differentiation but also the increse productivity of the enzyme DHEA (primary adrenal sex hormone) are responsible for sexual feelings. As it wa sexplained to you earlier Nur_Ilahi, the clitoris is made up of nerve endings that provide stimulation. Even ovaries have a small part in sexual drive so the clitoris would have even a smaller effect on the sexual drive of the woman.

Perhaps with that tiny extra length of the clitoris, women may tend to want sex more often

My previous explanations showed how this is false.

Fornication is haram in Islam, how and where is she going to channel all that desires? Women live longer than men, if a widowed woman suddenly finds no husband, how is she going to find the sexual satisfaction?

I was under the impression masturbation was haraam however most clinicians would suggest masturbation. It is safe, and most pleasurables ince you know what does and does not please you but of course this is no substitute to having a life partner.

As to the subject of high sexual desires, it is not taboo nowadays. With the TV and mass media showing all kinds of sexual acts discreetly or blatantly, we have no choice but to advise our children as to the negative effect of these actions.

You may have misunderstood my intention on explaining sexual desire. What I meant was to show you is that sexual desire is not the result of the clitoris nor is the clitoris the center for sexual desire I believe this was already explained to you. But to address what you implied, sexual desires may become conditioned by mass media through subliminal messages and other forms of advertisement but even if such is the case cutting the clitoris still will not curb those desires. In fact quite oddly some women do lance themselves (in the form of genital piercing) and claim to have even greater stimulation however these cases are far and rare.

More importanly cutting or modififying the clitoral area reduces stimulation in that area or risk getting infected if done improperly but it is of my opinion that such practices should not be done. The website link you provided showed very weak arguments, even on a religious level supporting clitoridectomy.

Hi Again,

I am quite disappointed that some of you here think that I came from an uneducated background without any education whatsoever.  Perhaps where lengthy scientific knowledge regarding the clitoris, I may not have, but generally I do have some basics.

And Angela, when I was 12, , that was more than 30 years ago, education in my country already included the topics that you mentioned. In fact what my children was taught in regards to sexual education was much more advanced than what we had in our school days.  

I introduced this topic about female circumcision is for us to see and to understand as to why this practice may be beneficial for women. This practice had been present way before Muhammad�s time and still practiced by many Muslims as I believe there is some hikmah or wisdom.

Minuteman mentioned that it was not recorded that the women of our Prophet had this circumcision, but it was also not recorded that they did not had it done. Why did Our dear Prophet s.a.w said - The first reason is the statement of Muhammad: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."  Perhaps honour in this context is honourable not to seek for more. Possibility that by having a longer clitoris, the sexual desire maybe more and lusting for more sex is very dishonourable.

When I  compare generally the practising Muslim girls and the non-Muslims or even non practising Muslims, wherever they are now, Alhamdulillah, where morality is concerned, our practising Muslim girls, have an upper hand. Perhaps the reason is because of this practice, and another is because of hijab and the other reasons is because of the strong faith in Allah. (avoid which is haram and encourage which is halal).

God loves us human so much. One of the reasons He created sex is for procreation, If there is no beauty in sex, what will happen to this world? - barren with no children.  

However free sex or fornication is totally wrong or haram as it is one of the source of many matrimonial problems.

Nur_Ilahi wrote: I introduced this topic about female circumcision is for us to see and to understand as to why this practice may be beneficial for women.

There is no benefit!

This practice had been present way before Muhammad�s time and still practiced by many Muslims as I believe there is some hikmah or wisdom.

There is no wisdom behind.

It's got nothing to do with religion, yes some muslims may do it but its more culture and tribal than religious. Honour killings were done before muhammed to but there is no religious wisdom behind it.

Minuteman mentioned that it was not recorded that the women of our Prophet had this circumcision, but it was also not recorded that they did not had it done.

true but don't you think if it was of importance either religious or benefit of the women before and during Muhammed's time that it would be recorded, just like the hijab and to cover for modesty? Don't you think some thing like this should have been recorded?? but its not don't you think you should be asking yourself these questions instead.

No one knows why it began but its probably comes from those who felt ashamed and guilty of feeling pleasure and feeling good about themselves and so they passed it on. Those who embrace sex and the goodness that comes with and not ashamed, will not do such a thing.  

The general morality is a system of rights and wrongs that are taught by the family and the society in general. And in a sense you are comparing very different morals of a society as a whole. For instance that dating etc is accepted in western cultural values. In Islam it is not. There are so many factors and so many differing views on the world that it is not "one" action such as hijab that determines the moral fabric of a woman or of men. 

I do not think that you are uneducated or any such thing.  But I do disagree with the premise that wanting sex alot for a woman is a bad thing. And thus the also associats the  premise that a woman who does will be more likely to fornicate outside the marriage. This is where the morals that we are taught comes into play.

It is like anyting else, having lustful thoughts is not bad. They are part of life, it is what you do with these thoughts. If you tend to have many, do you rise up to the challenge and not dwell on them in an unacceptable manner (like for another man other than your husband or wife)?

More marriages have problems due to the lack of interest of one partner-wife or husband. 

Also, in the west, in a Christian tradition, women were taught they where "whores" if they enjoyed and wanted sex. Women were to be passive and just accept this role. That lust and desire were not good in a woman. It needed to be controlled. Women were very much treated poorly.

And I would never have become a Muslim if there was anything in the Quran that would agree with this. It is human nature. It just has its time and place. Desire between husband and wife is a good thing. Nothing wrong with it.

Again as Angel said, the clitoris is not what stimulates desire. And where does it say that desire is not good for women?  So many women become Muslims because of Islam's healthy outlook on sex. It is not just for procreation. We are full sexual beings. And what man does not want a woman who enjoys that side of life? It is one of the pleasures we can have, in a proper place and situation--married.

In fact in Islam, if I am correct, not having a fulfilling "private" life is grounds for a divorce for men and women. We have a right to fulfillment. If a husband and wife are not compatable that is okay. It happens.

I think most people have an issue with removal of the foreskin over the clitoris. You even posted the note by the World Health Organization that that is not the issue that people have an issue with.  And I think on another thread others posted that this is what is referred to. NOT any other version.

Take care

Hayfa

Israfil wrote: Nur_Ilahi first off, nobody said that you had no educational background and nobody challenged your personal knowledge so I'm not sure where you perceived that. What we can say is that wee disagree with your defense of FGM (Female Genital Mutilation). But allow me to say if you had such a prior formal education concerning this issue then perhaps you would've refrained from saying the clitoris was the center for sexual desire (when in fact it's not).

Many people think that Muslim way of Female Circumcision is the same as FGM (female Genital Mutilation). It is definitely not.

Here is the three types of circumcision in a female. -

a) Removal of the hood (or prepuce) of the clitoris. This procedure is, to some degree, analgous to male circumcision since in both cases, no part of the sexual organ is cut off. In both cases also, it is only the foreskin, or outer fold of the skin, which is cut off. Properly done, it is not likely to cause any "matrimonial" problem. While some may call it "sunnah circumcision," this is their own appellation and not that of the Prophet (P) who used the term Sunnah only in the context of male circumcision.

b) Removal of the entire clitoris (clitorectomy) along with part of the labia minora, which is satured together leaving an opening. This is a form of mutilation.

c) Removal of the entire clitoris, labia minora and medial part of the labia majora, whith both sides of the female organ stitched together leaving a small opeing. This procedure requires tying together the child's legs of nearly three weeks. [9] It is called the Pharaonic procedure but may as well be called "mutilation".

The one that I meant in this topic is the one that is highlighted in red bold.

Hi Angela,

Please do not think that this female circumcision is the same as FGM. It is totally not.

These are non-obligatory acts that should be looked into further and in the context of these days, perhaps it can be beneficial.

Anyway, I introduced this subject not to ask women to start cutting off their clitoris, but to think deeply as to why fornication is so blatant nowadays and how this can be overcome.

Hi Hayfa,

Please do not think that I consider women uncircumcised very 'whory'. Not at all.

I was just thinking women who had a longer clitoris perhaps had an excess libido and had no way of letting go their yearnings or lusts as in unmarried women or widows. And how to avoid fornication if these excesses are not met?

As to married women, there is no harm in having and enjoying sex with their husbands. In fact, Allah blesses women who are Redha (pleasing) to their husbands. As pleasing a husband is also pleasing God. (meaning obeying).

To me cutting off a piece of human flesh is mutilation to me and yes I think the same about men too. It may be either major or minor in the sense but cutting off something that developed on your body natural is an unnatural act of modifying yourself whether its for the purpose of religion or not. Now, with respect to your assertion that alonger clitoris equals a greater libido again is simply wrong. The libido vaaries from woman to woman regardless the structure of the clitoral area. This is what we've been trying to tell you.

Nur_Ilahi wrote: I was just thinking women who had a longer clitoris perhaps had an excess libido and had no way of letting go their yearnings or lusts as in unmarried women or widows. And how to avoid fornication if these excesses are not met?

Nur,

Did you read my post at all?  The CLITORIS has nothing to do with Lust.  If you understood anything about biology (which is different than being uneducated, I know very little about Geology and I have 7 years of college and speak 2 languages with a smattering of 2 more) then you would understand what we are trying to tell you.

Lust comes from hormones, hormones are chemical secretions.  The clitoris does not make any hormones.  So reducing the clitoris is not going to reduce desire.  This is the part that you are uneducated about, a person can be educated about many things but competely ignorant of others. 

You keep missing the point and the argument you keep using if false. 

Do you know how affecting the clitoris affects desire....by pain?  If it hurts, or if you can't enjoy it, then you aren't going to want to do it.  And that would include the woman after marriage.  And, sadly, if she's chaste she's not going to find out the effects until her wedding night, which is already painful enough. 

If you want to curb desire in a woman you would need to mess with her hormones, then you risk causing infertility.

Here's a news flash.  God created us.  In the Bible, its says he created us man and woman.  His first commandment to Adam and Eve was to go forth and replenish the world as man and wife.  If there was a real benefit to not having a clitoral hood or to having the clitoris removed, we would not have one.

The problem with promiscuity today cannot be solved by holding women down and butchering their privates.  What about the promiscuous boys?  Many non-Muslim/non-Jewish boys are circumcised.  It doesn't affect their purity.  What are you going to do to them? 

The answer to the promiscuity of boys and girls is not cutting anything off.  Its teaching them right from wrong and being examples.

There were many things that happen that people argue are Islamic and in fact have no basis in Islam.  The practice of Purdah is one of them.  Considering there is no "P" in the Arabic language this is something that was absorbed when Islam met Hinduism. 

Northern African Christian groups practice this same kind of butchery.  It was a Northern African practice that was kept by the tribes as they converted to other religions.  Its a practice borne from a culture that had no understanding of cellular biology, endocrinology and gynocology. 

Lust is a product of so much more than mere stimulation of one small part of the body.  Go read up on the subject of all the research.  Michelle M. Wirth and Oliver C. Schultheiss, University of Michigan, Department of Psychology have found that outside stimulus increase the production of progesterone in women that induces arousal.  You can buy testoterone creams and progesterone creams to help women with sexual dysfunction.  Therefore, reducing the clitoris is not going to impact this, except that the state of arousal becomes uncomfortable because you've removed/damaged their ability to find pleasure in their arousal.  How is this beneficial? 

This subject perhaps need some further scientific reaserch from an unbiased source.

As this practise is quite common among the Muslims for more than 1400 years, even though it is non-obligatory, I still believe there is some benefits to it. If there is harm or no benefits whatsoever, this practise will die a natural death.

To me it is a shield or protection (triple protection) against promiscuity, fornication. Other than having faith in God - Amar makruf nahi munkar (encourage what is good and forbid evil), putting on hijab. fasting = this practise will also reduce the chances of fornication.

No doubt there are those who had been circumcised, male or female, but most importantly, it is their faith that is not strong, if their eeman is fragile, what other sheilds or protection is being used, it is useless for them.

And for muslmahs who had not been circumcised, please remember this is a non-obligatory act. We could never know all the secrets that Allah have in this world and the hereafter. Hold on tightly to your faith and increase your iman with worship of Allah, InshaAllah, whatever obstacles that you face, remember He is Al-Raheem - Most Merciful.

Nur_Ilahi wrote: As this practise is quite common among the Muslims for more than 1400 years, even though it is non-obligatory,

Where are you getting that its islamic? just becaue some muslims practice this, does not make it islamic.

Where are you getting that its non-obligatory in islam?

I still believe there is some benefits to it.

where is your resources that its of some benefit? other then telling us that its protection in curbing promisciuty etc.

How is it any benefit when you get married? How is the husband going to feel? what benefit is it to him!?

While you go out and cut a bit of the clitoris to curb bad behaviour - what effects is this going to have when you are married?

You seem to have all the answers please answer these questions.

If there is harm or no benefits whatsoever, this practise will die a natural death.

Not everything that is harmful or of no benefit dies a natural death always.

To me it is a shield or protection (triple protection) against promiscuity, fornication.

People are telling you its no protection there is hormones at play to! I suppose you would like to drain the body of hormones too to give a furthur protection, heck get rid of the brain to since that is the biggest sex organ 

And for muslmahs who had not been circumcised, please remember this is a non-obligatory act.

please give where this is in islam, quran or hadiths or other. You cannot just say this without some kind of evidence. 

Hi Angel,

I am a bit frightened by your anger.

As an answer, here is a link for your perusal.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543886 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamO nline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=111950354388 6

Salam.

By apologising here, you have shown that you deserve your name.

Salam.

Angela, I agree with your comment ' If there was a real benefit to not having a clitoral hood or to having the clitoris removed, we would not have one.'

Back in the Prophets day(pbuH) maybe it was a fashion thing as opposed to a religious one. Who really knows. We know that he neither condoned or condemned this act.

The clitoris is sensitive, so needs the covering. Allah made women this way, to have the clitoral hood. I dont need any other explanation. Fornication, adultery will happen when the mind is distracted. We have to become masters of our own self, not chop bits and pieces off because we think it will change our sexual urges. This kind of practice seems more fitting to voodoo worship than anything else. Or maybe it's just a practice that men introduced to give them more arousal when their private parts touches a womans. The only way to know is to ask a man who has had sex with both kinds of woman, one with a hood, one without.

Nur_Ilahi wrote: As an answer, here is a link for your perusal. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543886 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamO nline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=111950354388 6 Salam.

Assalamu Alaikum,

Jazak Allah Khair for the link. May Allah guide us all. 

Peace

From the link: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543886 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamO nline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=111950354388 6

from: Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi,

"However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths � even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands". The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It�s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying "do not exceed the limit" means do not totally remove the clitoris."

"even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic."

How can I take something that is not confirmed as authentic?

"It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands""

Is this an authentic hadith? This sentence is directly after about talking that such hadiths (even though there is no examples) are not confirmed authentic.

We have this other article which is in opposition, from: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503545826&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=11195035458 26&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FF atwaEAskTheScholar

From: Sheikh Ahmad Kutty,

"While one finds a number of traditions from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, which clearly indicates that he ordered pagan males who converted to undergo circumcision, it is not stated anywhere that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, ordered any woman who entered Islam to undergo this practice.

Because there is no absolute proof from the sources of Islam prescribing female circumcision, the vast majority of scholars do not include it in the OBLIGATORY rituals of Islam.

It is common knowledge in Islam that if the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, had wanted female circumcision to be an integral aspect of religious practice in Islam the same way that male circumcision is, he would have said so clearly. Since he did not do so, we can safely assume it is not a prescribed ritual of Islam." "

We have here:

"there is no absolute proof from the sources of Islam prescribing female circumcision, the vast majority of scholars do not include it in the OBLIGATORY rituals of Islam."

It is common knowledge in Islam that if the Prophet, wanted female circumcision to be an integral aspect of religious practice, he would have said so clearly. he did not so, not a prescribe ritual of islam.

I would like to know how one can take it upon themselves to know that something is better or of good for another especially in this department and of sexual relations. Everyone is different, both man and woman have differing degrees of what makes them feel good and pleases them. SO I do not know how one can say its better for relations or preferred by men/husbands. This is an assumption, assuming that what was good for you or worked for you DOESN'T make it so with another person or couple. Sure you can give advice based what what you did and the other can try it. But taking on the position that for all it is better or preferred by husbands is wrong, the better way of saying it if you are counselling is that some for them think its better or that some men prefer it but it may or may not be the thing for you.

If Prophet Muhammed actually said that's better for their heath and preferred by husbands is just making assumptions that may not be of the benefit to many others.

If there is no islamic sources for it and the Prophet did not say so (as per Sheikh Ahmad Kutty mentioned) then female circumcision should not be performed at all! Using the term "its not obligatory" to make it all right to do so is not right and I consider it wrong. It's like justifying it because some scholars don't obligatory prescribe it in islamic rituals and/or its barely mentioned. I guess the question can be asked is why don't these scholars obligatory prescribe it ? Afterall if it is something that Prophet Muahmmed talked about and perferred it, like male circumcision, then shouldn't it be an obligatory part of islamic rituals ? 

This debate about female circumcision is based on a weak hadith. A weak hadith cannot be rejected as easily as a false hadith, especially if it had proofs that it has some benefits to oneself.

The answers to all these debates is in the results. Other than agreeing what Martha said "The only way to know is to ask a man who has had sex with both kinds of woman, one with a hood, one without." The other is in finding out the results of this practise in communities that had it.

I have never found anything wrong with this practice which is common in my community. There is no problems with relationship between husbands and wives regarding sex and now that it I knew that it helps to curb the excess libido of a woman. I had explained that to my teenage daughter and let her see the hikmah behind this.

I always like to think that whatever sunnah whether weak or not, always has its wisdom. And no other religion gives protection to its women in regards to fornication other than Islam.

Subhanallah!

Nur_Ilahi,

The main issue here with me is that you conatantly keep associating libodo with the clitoral hood and several people here have told you that the clitoral hood is not associated with libido. You may also know that the reaosn this practice is not problematic to you is because as you mentioned, it is commonplace in your country. Obviously someone who grows up around this practice and finds it common will not see anything wrong with it. You also posed the inquiry that if we want to see if there are benefits we should ask a man who has had intercourse with both, but my hunch is that there is no significant difference but then there is no way to tell, but WHO CARES what the man thinks its not his body!

Nur_Ilahi I'm not suggesting in any way to tell you how to raise your children but you could possibly give out false information to your children by telling them the enlarged clitoral hood relates to the libido therefore, trim the clitoral hood. This is bad information in my opinion.

Nur_Ilahi the following should be read by you to know what the libido is:

The Female Body manufactures many types of http://www.health-science.com/estrogen.html - Estrogen but only one http://www.health-science.com/progesterone.html - Progesterone and Natural Progesterone is the Source of Libido or Sex Drive in Women!

Sources of Natural Progesterone

Natural Progesterone is normally produced by the female ovaries right after ovulation and balances the side effects of otherwise unopposed estrogen.

Under the influences of http://www.health-science.com/diet.html - dietary estrogens , petrochemicals, stress, and http://www.health-science.com/menopause.html - menopause , Progesterone production ceases or is suppressed and the effects of http://www.health-science.com/estrogen_dominance.html - Estrogen Dominance , can be observed.

Most women experience Loss of Libido, mood swings, irritability, anger, depression, headaches and weight gain from the lack of Progesterone that is required for proper http://www.health-science.com/hypothyroidism.html - thyroid function .

See Ref: http://www.health-science.com/libido.html - http://www.health-science.com/libido.html

And no other religion gives protection to its women in regards to fornication other than Islam.

Nur_Ilahi, you are totally WRONG in this assumption that other religions do not protect their women concerning fornication. I was previously in another religion that taught both young men and young women the perils of fornication. In fact that particular religion has excellent teachings for all, in every subject you care to think about.

Some of them are as follows:- no smoking, no alcohol, no sex before marriage, modest dress... the list can go on and on.

Perhaps I do not understand your statement on this. can you explain further?

Salaams Nur,

I think people are just going to disagree.

We all have differing knowledges and information.

And let me ask you, how do you know if people have problems? Often women have no idea that they might be "missing something." Sex is not talked about as openly.. do people really talk about not having orgasms? Would people complain or just "accept." Do they know about it? Would they really ever refuse their husbands anyway... so. Sex may not "hurt" but are they truly enjoying everything they should have.  I have lived in Paksitan and people are quite private. And then if their husbands are not satisfied, women are not likely to complain. They will be blamed 95% of the time.  

If everyone "does it" how do people know they might be missing something? I suspect schools don't teach sex ed there.

I agree with Martha, Islam is not the only religion to protect women from fornification.  I know no where in Judaism or Christianity that allows people to have sex outside of marriage.  I grew up Catholic and it was considered a sin...so...

It is odd to me that you would seek to control your daughter's libido with no proof that she has "excess" if that is your concern. Islam is about empowing us. I take account for my actions. I answer for my good deeds and bad so to speak. But I am responsible. I feel strong for that.  It would feel odd if my mother had presumed I would not have the self-control (and my bothers would).  (If that is the case we should take the equivalent out of men, what would "lower" their libido??...hmmm).

And as it is MEN who are much more likely to cheat, fornicate, why aren't we doing it to them. 75%, I mean 75% of all AIDS cases that affect women they get from husband or spouse. 75%. Scary. She is monogamous. He is not. She gets a disease from him and dies. So why anyone is so worried about the girls is beyond my comprehension. I'd be worried about her husband your daughter marries. He will be more likely to cheat, not cause she was circumcised. Cause its the way men are. Not all men are.. But many. 

I guess it is a little upsetting to think that people do cut up their girls to "control" their "libido". You know in China they used to footbind their women so they would not "leave" or runway.

Ayways about controlling the women..

Hi All.

I smiled when I read your replies. When I read about female genital mutilation that is common in African countries, I too squirmed with agony. However this is not. As my cousin who is a massage woman � giving massage to women after giving birth and had seen so many kinds of vagina, Muslims and non-Muslims,  � the difference is in just a shorter clitoris. Do not ask me how it looks like, cos I never saw one myself. If you think by having a shorter clitoris, we are retarded, or sex deprived, then you are totally wrong..

Do not worry friends. Personally, I find that this harmless practice is nothing at all. It does not affect our sexual drive. We still can experience our orgasms as like you girls. If birth rate can be used as a yard stick, Muslim women everywhere on earth as in my country too, love producing babies. If they do not enjoy sex, how can they produce babies?

Yes Angela, no matter what you say, you cannot change my mind as to this practice as it is had been our way of living. And for thinking that this harmless procedure is barbaric, it just shows the ignorance on your part. (sorry not meaning to be rude)

Angela, as to answering to Allah, the first questions that we are asked when we will be in our grave is MA RABBUKA? Who is your God? Not � Why did you cut off your clitoris and your daughter�s?

On the Day of Judgment, as long as we had practiced the five pillars of Islam, the 6 pillars of iman, and 2 pillars of ihsan,  InshaAllah, Allah will shower us with His Blessings. He is AlRahman and AlRaheem. Most Compassionate and Most Merciful.

Nur_Ilahi wrote: Hi All. I smiled when I read your replies. When I read about female genital mutilation that is common in African countries, I too squirmed with agony. However this is not.

You keep thinking that we are responding to FGM, we are not. We all know you are talking about female circumcision, and we all are responding to it NOT FGM. We know the difference, this is not the first time this subject has been brought up. 

Hi everyone,

I think in Nur_Ilahi's case, it is a cultural thing.

 Could be cultural. But we are only interested in the religious side of it. I do not believe in any mutiltion for the baby girls had been in practice at the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. It is a long time now (1400 years) and people do invent the traditions too.

 So if we leave the circumcision, it is better because we had no news about such things in the life nd wife of the holy prophet. If it was something good, he would not have missed it. Thanks and continue what you are doing. Don't listen to any one, all of you. i.e. status quo. Cultural stand-off.

If birth rate can be used as a yard stick, Muslim women everywhere on earth as in my country too, love producing babies.

Really one has nothing to do with another.. you can stil lget pregant and not enjoy sex or have an orgasm. The two are not synonymous  whatsoever. Many a woman gets pregnant and not have an orgasm or enjoy sex. Women are raped and get pregnant.

And I stand by my assertion that if people are having trouble, they aren't going to say much. I doubt that people are quite as open as that.  I could be wrong... I'll have to visit Singapore to find out.

And if they did not appreciate the circumsicion they are not going against their family etc. Sorry. Does not happen in conservative cultures. Sorry. I've lived in Pakistan which is probably more conservative. And women just don't make waves. About many issues.

And again Nur, please answer,if men are the ones who cheat (and this is universally true in all cultures), the ones who sleep around, why no effort to control their libido?

Hayfa,

What about women too? Women cheat as well.....

Assalamu Alaikum,

Here is also a relevant link that may help:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/ - http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=1702& ;CATE=89

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8791&KW=female+circumcision&TPN=5 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8791& ;KW=female+circumcision&TPN=5

Hayfa wrote: And again Nur, please answer,if men are the ones who cheat (and this is universally true in all cultures), the ones who sleep around, why no effort to control their libido?

First and foremost as we all know, iman or faith is very important. How deep your iman or how shallow it is determines the character of the person whether male or female.

In the case of this topic, if the woman has shallow faith, even if she had this circumcision, it will still lead to fornication, if there is no Taqwa of Allah.

Same with men. The guidelines for men to avoid fornication is to lower their gaze. And we women have to do our part too by putting on hijab, so as not to raise their shahwah (lust/passion/desire)

Shahwah in men starts from their eyes or sight. While shahwah of women starts from the touch.

Allah knows best.

To Israfil,

Sorry, perhaps this is off topic, but do you know that your avatar has got lots of meaning in this caligraphy?

Why so non-committal?

I thought you would want me to give my interpretation of this calligraphy.

Perhaps next time then.

Israfil,

I never said women don't cheat. I think it is statistically true in all cultures that men cheat more than women. Happens more here, more there too.I did not say all men cheat etc.

Iwas just pointing out that Nur's argument that snipping the clitoris "controls" women's libido.  And why not the same effort to comtrol the men's libido by snipping at their bodies?

I saw a show on National Geogprahic about this taboo thing that  some groups do that take irons to flatten out the girl's breasts. So that men will not think to be with them. They do this so as to keep the men away from the girls so that the girls can hopefully get an education. Again.. we alter women's bodies in order to control things.

That was my point. That is all.

Peace

Saying "I think its statistically true" is an invalid response can you show me proof?

Iwas just pointing out that Nur's argument that snipping the clitoris "controls" women's libido.  And why not the same effort to comtrol the men's libido by snipping at their bodies?

She ilves in a patriarchal society where men's might is right. She will not see it that way. Even if she is coming from a perspective of a woman

Assalamu Alaikum,

It seems the link I posted in my last post is not working. Therefore, I am posting again.

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=1702&CATE=89 - http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=1702& ; ;CATE=89

May Allah guide us all.

Peace

Israfil wrote: She ilves in a patriarchal society where men's might is right. She will not see it that way. Even if she is coming from a perspective of a woman

I thought I only wanted to take a peep today, but seeing this, wow! how could I just leave this alone?

Well in this era of globalisation, my dear Israfil, what you stated above is not only wrong, but full of ignorance. Perhaps it applies to uneducated women wherever they are.

The reason why men cheat is because humankind do not follow the command of God AlMighty, that is men were not given their right. Like it or not Allah had given permission for men to have four wives but with conditions attached of course. If they satisfy these conditions, cheating and fornication I believe will be much much less.

(I am sure I am poking a hornet's nest )

Nur,

You may have a pint, but it is not completely the totally answer. It may be one aspect of it. But let's face it, not many men can fulfill those conditions. You have the economic aspect alone will eliminate many men. Then you have the treating equally.. half the men cannot handle being resonsible for one wife, let alone more.

Although one could say that if men had more then one wife, the'y be too busy to do much more with the responsibilites that entails.. lol

And really again, it still is about self-control, respect, fear of Allah etc.  Can we gibve men a pass for "cheating" because the laws of that country are different they cannot exercise this option?

That is like saying that I have he option to take karate with men for the past 16 years (co-ed school.) I've never slept with anyone. I have the access. But I also have strobger moral codes. So I don't give men a "pass" cause some men cannot sleep around. (I don't agree with the anti-pologamy laws in the US. But if we we repeal that law all others will change. Watch the pepple petitioning for one woman and two husbands.. lol

And Nur, I know nothing about Singapore except its one of t he most expensive places to live in the world and you have alot of stores. lol

Angela give me a break!

 this thread is not about who cheats more its about making blanket statements without proof, quite the same with Nur who has made a statement about the libido based on her own cultural experiences. She lacks scientific evidence as well as Islamic evidence. It is already understood that clipping the the clitoris does not necessitate a reduction in the libido nor does it mean it will decrease sexual drive (in the sense that one will have more sexual partners). Having an enlarged clitoris does not mean one will have more sex or have the urge to commit haram acts. Any community regardless of geographical location is backwards in my opinion if they teach their people this kind of nonesense.

Who is to decide whether a certain size of the clitoris means she hs to circumcize herself male scholars? Human beings need to come down from the trees and actually pick up a book. I'm getting frustrated in repeating myself.

Well in this era of globalisation, my dear Israfil, what you stated above is not only wrong, but full of ignorance. Perhaps it applies to uneducated women wherever they are.

Nur your post is an example of male dominance......

The reason why men cheat is because humankind do not follow the command of God AlMighty.

This is nonsensical garb.

Men and women cheat for a variety of reasons. If you took the religious view yes men and women cheat because they don't heed the commands of God but this is not a valid explanation. What about people with exhibitionism who in fact are diagnosed with a disorder who are compelled (quite different than voluntarily acting) to have sex with multiple people? Are people with mental disorders sinful because they don't listen?

Like it or not Allah had given permission for men to have four wives but with conditions attached of course. If they satisfy these conditions, cheating and fornication I believe will be much much less.

What does this have to do with the cliping of the clitoris? Again this discussion is not about cheating its about an idiotic practice that has no medical merit? It's one thing to circumcize the male (because men are born with foreskin who, if left unkept can become very unhygenic) but another to clip the female because her clitoris is enlarge its a dumb reason I'm sorry. I would be damned if some Sheikh or scholar said her behavior of having multiple partners is the result of her enlarged clitoris....Come on people wake up

EDIT*****

So as to not sound mean this is not directed at anyone here in particular but those groups that endorse bad medical practice that has no merit in religious medicine

Israfil, whatever you said, it would not have any difference at all.

This practice is dated way back I guess even before Muhammad's time. It is even in the books of Sunnah even if it is a weak one.

This is very common in our community especially for Muslims in South East Asia. At least with this topic, I had given you people a some new knowledge is it not.

Right. We leave it as it is and let start with a new thread - why men cheat.

See u there. Salam.