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Terrorist V Terrorism

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Topic: Terrorist V Terrorism
Posted By: Iftikhar
Subject: Terrorist V Terrorism
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 9:35am

 

Terrorist V Terrorism

According to British writer and lecturer, Karen Armstrong, the west is deeply Islamophobic and the Islamophobia is the result of a long process of prejudice, dating back to the Crusades. The recent events have strengthened the prejudiced belief that �Islam is the religion of the sword�. Islamophobia can manifest itself directly in verbal or physical attacks on Muslims but also indirectly in negative images of Muslims presented by the media. Islamophobia was worsened by anti-Islamic policies, publications and activities in Europe and the US. Islamophobia is not only a cause of discrimination against Muslims but also an open threat to world peace. The western media and intellectuals play a significant role in spreading Islamophobia. Hate-mongers have come out of the woodworks in full force. Now, not a day passes without the newspapers, magazines, radio and TV talk shows, Hollywood movies, computer games and even children�s cartoons and the myriad of internet websites and chat rooms, attacking Islam and Muslims. Muslim communities in the western world and its so called leaders have taken the Ostrich-approach. They have buried their heads in the sand hoping the problems would go away. It is not going to go away. The neck of the Ostrich will be cut. Entire Muslim communities living in the west are under attack. According to a survey, 70% of Americans do not want to see Muslims living in their neighborhood. There is not a single day when Islam and Muslims are not attacked by the mainstream news media outlets. Muslims are referred barbarians who must either be civilised or banished before they pollute the egalitarian societies in which they were born or now live.  According to a survey in Scotland, half of Scots see Muslims as a �cultural threat�. Scotland would lose its identity if more Muslims went to live there. According to DEMOS, British public is more worried about violent crime and immigration, but the British establishment has focused too heavily on terrorism.

 

 Masajid and Muslim organizations are regarded as training centers for terrorists. Thousands of innocent Muslim youths are being searched in streets and hundreds of them are behind the bar with out any trial. No religion advocates terrorism. However, West has directed its anger against Islam and Muslims by inventing Islamic Terrorism. It is the western extremism which is portraying Islam as an evil. It is the extremism in France, Turkey and other European countries where Muslim women are not allowed to cover their heads. Now the Turkish education chief wants headscarf ban lifted. In Britain, there is a social and economic pressure on Muslim women not to cover their heads.   Despite international outrage and the US authorities� own stated wish to close Camp Guantanamo is still holding detainees illegally� in cruel, inhuman and degrading conditions.

 

There is an undeclared World War III going on in the name of War on Terrorism. The fact of the matter is that Islam is all peace and hence this war is war of terrorism and not against terrorism. Deception and lies are frequently part of the wars and with powerful Hollywood film tools and other media communications devices people of the world are thoroughly fooled, deceived and made confused. The war in Iraq and Afghanistan is an unmitigated disaster that had brought the west generally into disrepute. Inter Milan, the Italian foot-ball team played with an Istanbul team, wearing a strip with �Crusader-Style� red crosses which is offensive to Muslims. The red-cross brings to mind one thing: the symbol of the �Templar Knights�. The cross also symbolised �western racist superiority over Islam�. Inter Milan had manifested in the most explicit manner the superiority of one religion over another. Many EU countries are against Turkey joining EU on the ground that majority of Turks are Muslims with secular constitution. Widespread ignorance and Right-wing groups is the main culprit behind the demonized image of Islam in the west. Islamophobic west has become politically motivated. Western media and politicians are portraying Muslims as �satanic figures�. A recent British study has found that a torrent of negative and imbalance stories in the British media demonize the sizeable Muslim minority and their faith by spreading prejudices and portraying them as the enemy within. Many people in the west, including researchers and those working in the media, unintentionally provide a blemished image of Islam because they are ignorant about Islam and Muslims. The republication of Danish cartoons clearly shows the prevalent ignorance about Islam. The United Nation wanted to introduce a universal law to protect Muslims from Islamophobia, which is spreading like wildfire, but the so-called civilised western establishments, voted against it. It is the fundamental duty of Muslims settled in the west to raise awareness of the spirit and core of Islam.

 

 One by one all Muslim Organizations are going to be classified as �Terrorists�. BBC Newsnight has already branded world Assembly of Muslim Youth (WAMY) as terrorist. According to TES, dated 1st Feb2002, Muslim teacher�s website has been condemned for links to militant Islamic groups. It is absurd to brand Muslim teachers website as a terrorist. Its aim is to provide guidance, share experience and discuss every day issues and problems facing Muslim teachers.  It is also going to help British teachers to learn to respect and understand Islamic culture and most misunderstood British Muslim community. Racism in schools is alive and well was recognized by the Focus Institute on Rights. Staff in many schools is unwittingly racist but in my view, all British teachers are chicken racist. Racism is rife in National Curriculum. There is no mention of Muslim contribution in the world. Schools reinforce the racism that has been promulgated for centuries. The curriculum is supposed to encourage respect for different nationals, religious and ethnic identities and encourage pupils to challenge injustice. A report on teachers from the minority communities found that racism coupled with a lack of support and career progression is holding some back. Even teacher trainees were encountering racism at placement schools. They would like to discuss their worries more, but only if the senior management team was visibly open and supportive. The management at schools was very defensive about any mention of racism, so the issue could not be discussed in any meaningful way. If a teacher in English school calls a teddy bear Jesus Christ, there would be seriously hostile comments in much of the media.  While in Sudan a British teacher was tried and imprisoned for insulting Islam for fifteen days but was pardoned by the President and released after eight days. She said after her release that she encountered nothing but kindness and generosity from Sudanese people. She was treated well in a Government Villa instead of a prison cell. She could have been imprisoned for six months and forty lashes. It is a fact that British teachers have no respect for Islamic faith and subsequently Muslim community, according to research by the University of Derby.

 

All the Masajid and Muslim organizations are there for humanitarian, educational and youth works. None of them promotes acts of terrorism or support so called Islamic Terrorism. They are busy in those aspects of education, which are neglected by state schools. They satisfy the needs and demands of the Muslim children and teenagers, which were denied by state schools and LEAs. Without their support and guidance the young generation of Muslim would have lost its Islamic Identity crucial for mental, emotional and personality development. Their contribution will be more effective if all Muslim pupils attend Muslim schools with Muslim teachers. It will help to develop positive co-relation between school and home resulting in raising the standard of education of future Muslim generations. For this purpose, I have a proposition that those state schools where Muslim pupils are in majority may be designated as Muslim Community Schools, managed and controlled by Muslim Educational Trusts and Charities. They are in a better position to educate Muslim children according to their needs and demands. A study by the National Foundation for Educational Research confirmed that all faith schools had better results than their secular counterparts. Conservative spokesman on education has praised schools affiliated to religious groups, saying Muslim schools deserved �support� not suspicion.

Iftikhar Ahmad 

 

 

 

      

 

 




Replies:
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 12:30pm

Salaams brother,

You have raised many issues, and I feel I must reply.

Britain has many schools that teaches Islam as part of its religious curriculam. You are wrong to suggest that all British teachers are 'chicken racist' I have yet to see it personally. There are also many muslim schools in the UK. All schools that I know about are eager to teach the children about ramadan and Eid. Many British schools are opting out of their own Christian cultural celebrations so as not to offend non-Christians, including muslims. The Nativity play and Easter seldom take place these days. What more do you want?

There are more muslim politicians in government than ever before. If we are racist then we would not allow them to hold these government positions. If we were racist we would not give council homes to the poorer muslims that need the help, and hand out benefits paid for by our taxes. 

If the British fail to understand the teachings of Islam then many of them have good cause. No one can understand the idiotic antics of the suicide tube bombers. Many muslim women felt they couldnt wear the hijab after this incident and not because of British ideas.All because of the silly young muslim men, most of whom had been born here. Yes, there are some British people who take the law into their own hands. Can you blame them? Some innocent muslims also died that day in July on the underground. Dont you think that their families also question why this took place?

Brother, we live in the UK. It is our choice. You cannot possibly expect to reap all the advantages of the western world if you are not prepared to live amongst the British community. I am not suggesting you live anything other than the laws of Islam that clearly state you obey the rules of the country you live. The UK will not come under Shariah law,  certainly not in our lifetime.There are many muslim communities in the larger cities, that are no longer recognisable as British. I lived in a predominatly asian area of South London. Most non-Londoners would have a culture shock if they visited there. I jokingly named this area 'Little Pakistan'. Most asians do not mix with the British. This is a commonly known fact. Comments like the ones you have posted, will only achieve further distance between the cultures. The British are doing there bit to make it a civilised society. What are you doing brother? I hope you mix with the British and understand why we are the tolerant people we are, instead of you thinking that one day you will turn the UK into something completely different. This will never happen. We already do so much for you and the many million other non-British residents. You would achieve far more if you held hands with us to promote the peace that our religion Islam is all about. And please dont call me racist. My husband is from Pakistan, so I understand the situation from all angles. If you dont like it here, and the values the British have, then you could always emmigrate.

 



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Iftikhar
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 2:19pm

SAlaam

I am interested in the education of Muslim children. Majority of them leave schools with low grades because monolingual teachers are not capable of teaching English to bilingual Children. They need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models. They need to be well versed in Standard English to follow the National Curriclulum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity.

At the same time they need to be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.

People have a right to live where they choose their own identity.If any native Brit does not like that then he/she the one that go somewhere else.Just because you born here does not give you the right to lay claim to anything and tell others how to live.Brits never live according to other customes and tradition when they go and live in another country. 

A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny gloabl village. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit. Majority of British Muslims are from Pakistan which is only seven hours away from London. 

 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 1:02am

The UK will not come under Shariah law, certainly not in our lifetime.

Brother Iftikhar, I have read and re-read your article a good few times. Would you, please, help me, perhaps, I have missed something you may have penned down in some invisible ink or onion juice!

Did you anywhere in your article or even in your wildest dream ever advocate Shariah Law for the UK?

Or, has any other scholar of any salt ever done that in your wake?



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 1:09am

Brother,

In your original posting you mentioned nothing about bilingual teachers for muslim children. Children learn languages very easily. Surely you know this. Before a parent sends the child to school for the first time they have the right to teach their children english. This can be done interactivily with English friends at play with the muslim child. Or does mixing with the English child not appeal to you at all? The parent can also teach English at home if they wish, and should be encouraged for the sake of the child. Teachers are not fully responsible for any childs education whatever their nationality. Some of it lies with the parent. Many English parents try to teach thier children to read some things before they start school.If you follow the news, you will already know there is a plan to introduce Urdu into the British curriculam. I expect in time there will be Urdu speaking English teachers who can fulfill the needs. But these things do not happen overnight.

Like I already stated, there are already many muslim schools in the larger cities. These surely teach Arabic, Urdu and other languages. Of course it is the main responsability of the parent to teach the child its cultural roots and literature. British parents also have the same duty to teach this to their children in the home.

Yes of course you have the right to live where you choose, as does any person. But you have no claim to expect the British to change their ways, just because you dont like it. This will always be Britain.

Your title Terrorist v Terrorist is totally inappropriate. The British people are for the majority peaceful. It is comments like yours that instill concern into the British mind, and broadens the gap.

You have failed to acknowledge the majority of my comments. Do you not agree that there are many muslim members of Parliament? Do we not give benefits to muslims along with council homes? Where is your answer about the tube bombings?

It is obvious that you have little understanding of the British way of life. You refuse to intergrate with the British society. It can be done quite easily, and still give you the freedom to live good muslim principles. Or are you scared that your children will pick up bad habits as they grow? It is your duty to guide them. British parents also must and most do, guide their children to have good morals. Dont reply to me that British youngsters dont behave properly in the community. In London for example huge numbers of asian muslim youths frequently wait on corners  for their supply of drugs or to beat someone up! This is not the fault of the British, but the fault of the parent who has not guided the child whilst young, and has kept them from intergrating into society. When the child is old enough it rebels against the parent. I have seen loads of teenage muslim girls in hijab going into pubs and smoking and having boyfriends. I have seen girls wearing hijab getting on the underground tube removing the hijab and applying thick makeup. This is not the fault of the British but the parent who has kept the child wrapped up in cotton wool during their tender years. The list is endless.

And as for you suggesting the British leave their homeland. Get real!



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Iftikhar
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 1:16am

Salaam

London School of Islamics is an educational Trust. It's aim is to make British public, institutions and media aware of the needs and demands of the Muslim community in the field of education and possible solutions.

Please visit    http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk - www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk for more information on this crucial and complicated issue.

 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 1:39am

If you dont like it here, and the values the British have, then you could always emmigrate.

Brother, please, have heart, no need to get worried at all. If she bounces you out of her country, there's a place for you here in sunny Spain, with absolutely beautiful spirited people.

Just one thought though, if it's so much her country, how come she fails to stop the bloodshed, in Afghanistan and Iraq, that keeps breeding all those suicide bombers that she keeps on about?



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 2:27am

Whisper,

You already know that the British public did not want Blair to invade Iraq or Afghanistan, and it's not our fault that the fanatical muslim works underground to breed the suicide bomber. Dont lay that one at our feet. And I have no intention of 'bouncing' our brother out of the UK.

Both of you still are not giving satisfactory replies to my statements.

Britain goes the extra mile to ensure all cultures and all faiths have equal opportunities. But there will be a divide when some fail to see the full picture.

And Whisper, you know there are many muslims here who advocate Shariah law. I was trying to establish if our brother Iftikhar is one of them.

 

 



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 2:32pm

Brother Iftikhar, I understood your post and thought it made a lot of sense.  Anything having to do with Islam has been attacked and made things difficult for good muslims to participate in gatherings at set places.  I think Islamic schools are a great idea and nothing should be wrong with them.  We have many various religious schools here in the US and students often do well in them.  I have noticed more and more Islamic schools popping up in the US and of course they must meet certain educational requirements, but they also include the Islamic teachings many good muslim parents would want their children to know.

Martha, I think they are not addressing your comments because it is hard to see how they relate to the posting.  I am really having a hard time understand how your points correspond, though I am happy to hear you find racism to not be a problem in the UK. 

You seem to be combative against his ideas because he is concerned about racism, but you didn't address most of the examples he gave and instead started your own.  I know you sound angry but I really wish you would elaborate so I can understand what he said that has upset you.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 3:32pm

And Whisper, you know there are many muslims here who advocate Shariah law.

Must be some absolutely educationless idiots who do that. I haven't come across any in my circle at all. The British system is far better than any Islamic welfare system practised, anywhere in prevalent times.

You already know that the British public did not want Blair to invade Iraq or Afghanistan, and it's not our fault that the fanatical muslim works underground to breed the suicide bomber.

Ever heard of the cause and effect theory? If the great Brit Public were so against these wars, would they surrender Blair for a War Crimes Trial, which can be instituted in Spain under a special Spanish Law?

No, they would not just because BRITISHNESS sets in!

Your point on so many Muslims in the Parliament: Are they there as some charitable deed of the Brits?

OR are they elected as reps - of their own communities? and in their own steam in a free for all contest?



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 3:46pm

My point sister is simple really.

I did reply to his questions. How plain can I say it?

There are muslim schools. There are muslim politicians. Teachers are not 'chicken racists'. etc etc etc

Brother Iftikars first post was stating otherwise, so I corrected him. I certainly am not going to write all my comments again. But maybe you can read my posts.

Sister, of course I get fed up with narrow minded people who dont see the full picture. Maybe he just wont admit to all the good things that Britain does for muslims. His initial comments are shameful and untrue. Only in his second post did he attempt to explain better. And again I gave him the same reply. But people must always see the full picture, not just give their own blinkered ideas.  I am waiting for him to tell me that what I have stated is untrue, only this. But he hasnt replied yet. I am a very broadminded person. But this is the UK not 'Little Pakistan'.

Sister, if I went to Pakistan then I would not dream of critisising Pakistan. I would fit in and adapt to their way of life. Not compromise on muslim beliefs, I dont mean that. But for goodness sake. Islam teaches us to respect the country we live in, to live its laws. Not to change it because we dont like it! I have explained enough. I think you miss my point altogether.



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 3:48pm

Sister,

You live in the US right? If I came there and starting demanding this and that, wouldnt you get upset?



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 4:11pm

Whisper,

You know full well I have no problem with any muslim here achieving whatever he chooses. Including muslim politicians voted in by the asian communities.

I am not narrowminded in the least. You also know I am not racist. You chose to accept that or not. I am all for all communities to come together, instead of being separate entities. If I didnt care about it I wouldnt bother to reply. But it seems increasingly obvious that British are expected to forgo their own identity for the sake of other cultures here.

I have not given false information regarding muslim schools, Islam being taught in British schools, Urdu being introduced into the national curriculam. These are all good things. But it must be give and take from all sides. There is still much to do for all people here. And the barriers must be removed, and patience must be borne by all for any change to succeed. Surely this is the way forward. Errors must be recognised on all sides for this to happen however.



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:26pm

I understand what you are saying, Martha, about the schools shouldn't have to change to suit muslim needs if it is a public school.  In this I do agree with you.  One of the problems that was pointed out was that many Islamic schools are getting branded as being supported by terrorists.  This creates problems for the school and the students.  It also hit headlines here in the United States when a teacher was banned from teaching due to the fact she covered her face as part of her religious principles.  This does create a hostile environment.  If the UK doesn't want to teach about Islam in public schools than that is its right.  I just don't think it is fair to make things difficult for the Islamic schools where muslim parents prefer to send their kids so they will get that education.

Now, I can't say what your laws are in regards to all this.  One of the reasons the USA was created was to have religious freedom.  I don't know if you all have written that into your laws or not, as I have not studied your laws.  I just know it is one of the reasons we fled your country and created ours.  So, here in the USA, I am all for people being able to practice their religion and there being religious tolerance since that is what this country was founded on.  It also means if they want to do Christian things than they should.  I don't ask for just muslim rights to practice openly.  I ask it for everyone of all religions.  If people want to hang Christmas decorations at the airport than that is their business.  It is a predominantly Christian country and muslims here have not complained about it (although a Jewish guy did).  If they want to have moments of silence at school so kids can pray to whoever they pray to, then I am all for that too.  No one complains when convenience store owners keep a statue of Buda or that he leaves candy bar sacrifices for it in plain sight inside his store. 

I think the problem is the west is pushing all religion away instead of embracing it and making it more open.  Why should we spend so much time trying to hide religion so we don't offend someone's sensibilities?  Does that really help anyone?

As for languages, that is up to the school and the demographics of the school.  If there are only 2 students from a Urdu speaking country then it probably isn't worth the trouble of making a class.  Yet, most schools in the United States offer Spanish and some make it mandatory because of the large hispanic population here.  You should only offer what is an obvious need by your students for the location of each particular school (this is an opinion, I still don't know your laws).

Also, I think he did go a little to far with the "chicken racist" comment and understand your being upset for that.  Yet what harm is there in encouraging more teachers of different faiths in schools instead of making them outsiders?



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 11:45pm

Martha, I think they are not addressing your comments because it is hard to see how they relate to the posting.

Salaam por la mujer de Salam, You have hit the nail on its head. Our friend is not joining in the debate, but trying to drive the debate to points that suit her.

I am really having a hard time understand how your points correspond, though I am happy to hear you find racism to not be a problem in the UK. 

Sis, join the club or go and make the 3rd cup of tea, it's early morning in Spain and I am going to make one because our friends lines spin far more riddles than they are supposed to solve.

If racism weren't a problem in the UK, our friend would have spent so much of defensive energy in painting the situation to be otherwise.

My parents were under the illusion that they could educate me, they sent me to school in England. I have spent almost all my summers in England since then. I have served at least one term on the Slough Race Relations Council. I was selected to contest as the First (recent) Asian MPs from Slough, Eton and Windsor by the Conservatives.

I have had to mention these points simply to break our friends impression that if all non-English, in her country, are just a bit from 'ere or just there, which I agree, mostly they are from the dodgy group that her husband seems to belong to.

Brits are a fine lot on the whole, but to insists that they are not the best supporters of their phobia of anything that's not British is either gross injustice or, at best, a sheepish attempt at masking the reality. This phobia graduates into their Racial Prejudice!

The Brits are also great masters of masking the reality. Somehow, I have no idea at all for what reasons, but they don't like to face the reality. They would spend an age sittining on the fence of may be, may be not, perhaps you are right, could be I am wrong, plus is not minus and minus is not plus and all manners of such expressions.

The truth doesn't seem to dawn on them like their days, most are just a wee wrose than their nights! 



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 12:39am

Whisper,

You know full well I have no problem with any muslim here achieving whatever he chooses. Including muslim politicians voted in by the asian communities.

I was reponding to you comment, which caste the impression that these politicians had been placed in the parliament as a result of some Charitable British act and they were put there by their constituents!!!

I am not narrowminded in the least. You also know I am not racist.

You will never catch me thinking or even Whispering otherwise.

Our friend has been trying to make one simple point in his post that you seem to have hijacked is that Islamophobia is being spun and promoted in Great Britian. There are many reasons for this going on.

One of these reasons was that the British government badly needed to keep the public attention away from their criminal Iraq and Afghanistan misadventures and focussed to events at home.

The other was the special trans-Atlantic relationship that required constant airing of Islamophobia for justifying their on-going killings of millions of people in the playfields chosen by their vested interests.

But it seems increasingly obvious that British are expected to forgo their own identity for the sake of other cultures here.

My child, this process is called assimilation in plain simple terms and it goes on all the time. And, in all cultures. I wish you could show me just one social group that is ever as static, as dumb or as dead to vital change.

Has Britain not changed through this past milleneum? without these new communities being on her soil? Or for that matter, haven't the world wars changed our great Brits, at all?

Being pure English is more romantic a dream than Tony Blair and Osama Bin Laden starting a life together in a Bolton Council flat, as a couple!



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 12:50am

You live in the US right? If I came there and starting demanding this and that, wouldnt you get upset?

How often do you get upset? Is airing one's positive opinion openly not a long earned BRITISH tradition? Are you the only gardian of England? The only person vested with a VOTE?

In the eyes of the English Law; anyone and everyone, on Her majesty's Voters Rolls holds full rights (without any prejudice) to propose, ask for and even demand anything, within the Law, that they deem to be beneficial for the public at large.

Kindly, refer to your country's law before flashing your Britishness, which, if you study closely, is a shade of racistic tendency.



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 12:57am

Sister, if I went to Pakistan then I would not dream of critisising Pakistan.

My friend, what a beautiful dream!

I hadn't realised that when you are in a country or, specially, if you moved to a country, some absolute and divine obedience is required of you? Whats so sacred about not criticising or correcting a wrong?

I think, I will have to talk to someone in Islamabad, you would make a perfect Advisor for Mush who is desperately trying to implement such absolute obedience from his badly tortured subjects.

All of hold every single right to stand up and call a foul a foul just as Human Beings, it's our basic right of belonging to a society.



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 3:33am

Salams_wife,

If the UK doesn't want to teach about Islam in public schools than that is its right.  I just don't think it is fair to make things difficult for the Islamic schools where muslim parents prefer to send their kids so they will get that education

You are again missing the point.The UK does teach Islam in its schools. And urdu is being introduced into the curriculam for all students, just as spanish is taught in the US schools.

We are not 'pushing all religion away instead of embracing it and making it more open.'

 Yet what harm is there in encouraging more teachers of different faiths in schools instead of making them outsiders? 

I never suggested anything different

 



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 3:46am

Whisper

Sister, if I went to Pakistan then I would not dream of critisising Pakistan.

My friend, what a beautiful dream!

I hadn't realised that when you are in a country or, specially, if you moved to a country, some absolute and divine obedience is required of you? Whats so sacred about not criticising or correcting a wrong?

You dont need absolute and divine obedience when you live else where . But its logical that you dont start divisions of your own that affect others. It is purely for selfish reasons if you do otherwise. I have already stated how important integration is for everybody. Dont twist the words. And I have never suggested that wrongs are not to be righted. But there is a manner in which you attempt that.



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 4:01am

Whisper,

In the eyes of the English Law; anyone and everyone, on Her majesty's Voters Rolls holds full rights (without any prejudice) to propose, ask for and even demand anything, within the Law, that they deem to be beneficial for the public at large.

I have not suggested anything different.  As usual Whisper you twist anything I say. And you paint a bad picture all the time about Britain, either regarding the past or present. Racism in the UK is not as rife as you try to suggest. And surely racism is only present when the true picture is not revealed on any side. It is not something that is just inside a person. It develops over time. I dont even suggest that all asians are bad, and you are wrong to suggest my husband is from a dodgy group. You dont know him. You also dont know me .

It is my intention everytime to build not destroy. And if I need to point out some errors that people post then I can do. My views are never biased, but I will stand firm if the facts presented are not true.



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 6:07am

Martha, I have a question for you.  What forms of racism do you find in the UK and how do you think that effects those it is directed at?

I know you had mentioned before that you no longer show outwardly you are a muslim.  I know at this day and time it is a difficult trial in the west to show you are muslim, but this leads me to believe you did find racism and hatred in your country.

I am, and always will be, hard headed and stubborn.  I personally refuse to hide my being muslim no matter what my friends, family and co-workers think.  I believe the more I show I am proud of it, then the more they will just have to get used to it.  Of course, this has been my way on a lot of things in life so perhaps it is easier for me.  Most people who know me are aware of this and they know better than to judge me (to my face) because they know I will not put up with it.  They may not like it, but the idea of who I am now is growing on them and they are slowly accepting it because I don't show I am ashamed of it, but instead show I am proud of it.

I understand not everyone is like that.  There have been a lot of movements to do away with racism and give more rights to minority groups in the last century.  Those people didn't gain their acceptance by hiding, but by showing they were proud of who they were and facing their difficulties.  I could give you numerous examples of this in the United States and I am sure you have examples in the UK.  The first step is to admit there is hatred and racism. 



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 7:27am

Salams_wife,

I no longer outwardly show myself as a muslim because I dont agree with what many muslims do, which then brings disrespect on Islam. I have previously mentioned the London tube bombings and the siege on the Belsan school by extremists.  At the time these things happened I was perfectly happy and at ease to wear the hijab. I lived and worked in a predominantly asian community. Some accepted me some didnt. I found that the vast majority of older asian women that didnt intergrate into society, struggled with me being muslim. Most young muslims were fine that I had accepted Islam. Most British people in the city were also fine. Amusingly one black man said that God didnt want a white woman to be a muslim

I am by no means a weak woman. It is not this that forced me to remove the hijab. The hatred and racism that all people feel comes from ignorance. On both sides of the fence. Many British face  racism today from others because they are the wrong colour or race or religion. It will take time for  everyone to change. Everyones situation is different and cannot be bundled into one bag. I have no one to defend me, so am not in a loving muslim family situation. I quietly accept that situation and do the best I can with the means I have. But this does not make me weak. If I had cared about what my family or friends thought then I wouldnt have become muslim would I? Strength comes from within, and is not always portrayed on the outside. I am ultimately trying to understand Islam and hopefully be a good muslim as well as being a nice person.



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 12:48pm

I must admit I need to just go past this absolutely riddiculous pointless debate in which no points are ever addressed.

With sincere thanks.



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 3:51pm

Martha,

I understand what you are saying to a point. I have visited the UK only once and of course that does not adequately teach one anything. Part of defining what "racism" is and what it is not is to let people do it for themselves. I have no idea of your ethnicity. Nor on one level is it important. How does one define racism? Now for most white people in the US, they think racism is not very prevelant. You ask many nonwhite people of their experiences they will paint a very different picture, sometimes of outright prejudice, sometimes the subtler forms of it. 

And really what does intergration means to you? Is not culture and society constantly changing? What is wrong with change? Are the mainstream British not willing to adapt and grow. I know it used to be fish and chips all over UK, now it is curry. Is that not a cultural shift? (Giving a very general example.) Ideas of culture etc. are not static. The worlds population is mostly nonwestern. If my children grow up learning to speak another language does it matter (in the general sense, not say for survival etc., but on pronciple.) is there anything wrong with that. Is English so "special" they must learn it?

Intergration or forms of it are two way streets. The level in which a person should have to intergrate is depatable to me. Not I believe you may want to learn the language of  the economic commerce of a place. But besides that, I am happy if we have Little Italy, Little China, Little Pakistan, etc. Do I care if they intergrate.. personally no. (I am not sure what is "American culture" anyways.)

There is xenophobia. Especially if you so obviously look different. I as a white, blue eyed woman would get far less trouble then a woman who looks like a "foreigner" dressed in hijab. 

When you've mentioned about why you don't wear hijab. And one thing is that it is that you possibly are treated poorly cause of the actions of some Muslims. Imagine that for a black person. They never escape the prejudicial ideas that black people commit more crime, they sell drugs. Black men are dangerous. Even as some people are bad. They take the brunt of it and cannot "hide". I am not saying you should. My point being is that you are not responsible for another's actions. Nor should you be. And you have a choice. The nonwhite people don't have a choice to "hide" from the glare.

If people are not "racist" as you say they would not infer that you are "bad" if you are Muslim. People ARE prejudicial. Are any of us not, no. But the reality is, it is getting worse for Muslims. It is often nothing they are doing. It is the fear-mongers in governments that spread hate and fear.

Hope this makes sense  



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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 5:14pm

You know, I used to be blind to most racism myself until people started pointing it out to me.  First example would be the airport.  Before getting married I had very an American/European name.  Without the hijab I look very white.  So when I moved through an airport , I move easily (except in late 2001 to 2002, I was randomly searched a lot during that period).  I can't tell you how many times I showed up at the airport with less than an hour before the plane took off and managed to get my tickets, check in my luggage, go through security, etc. 

Now, if you look at anyone outside the white race, especially if they are arab, you will see a different story.  A friend pointed this out and I started watching and realizing how lucky I had been.  They must show up hours ahead of their scheduled flight and often face numerous checks.  I have watched many arab comedians try to make light of it, but you know it bothers a lot of people.  Perhaps it makes everyone feel better to have more security, but often times these security checks can be demoralizing.

Martha, I'm not going to argue with you anymore.  If you want to hide the fact you are muslim, that is your business.  I know I will not because I want to prove that being muslim is not the same as what those "bad muslims" did.  I am not going to let the "bad muslims" or "Them", the non-muslims, win by hiding who I am.

I don't know why you find racism as something people need to deal with and why you chose to not see how bad it really is.  I just find you are arguing from your heart and not from real facts.  If your arguments made sense, then someone here would have pointed that out.  Instead you have baffled us.  I think you are a wonderful person with a good heart who just needs to know her subject matter better before entering an argument.  Your arguing for your country and it is good you are loyal to your country, I am loyal to mine, but you must try not to be blind to its faults.  Look at things from all angles.



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 3:51am

Look, I answered the original post inwhat I feel was a fair manner. I pointed out that racism is not as rife as was originally posted. Along with other facts about the schools.

I also pointed out that changes in all ways take time. Integration is important. It brings unity. I have never said that change is not important. In fact it is necessary. But that comes from all angles and all faiths.

I am not blind to my countries faults. And yes, I will do whats necessary for me regarding Islam.  



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 31 December 2007 at 6:36am

Integration is important. It brings unity.

Unity for what? More power? To cow down someone else?

Diversity is okay for happiness if we begin to chesrish differences instead of some terribly terribly boring and regimented set up.



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 7:21pm

HMMM it seems that we are off topic here so I'm curious how all of this is related to the original topic.

It is easy if you're not of the disadvantaged underepresented group to pressupose that racism is not prevelant. Racism is very much prevalent (by this I mean the state of how it exist) because it still endures but it may not be as outward as it has in the past perhaps that is a better way of looking at it.

As sister Hayfa pointed out we all have stereotypes and prejudicial beliefs, but what is important is the manner in which we control these beliefs and not to allow it to develop into self-destructive behavior. I remember sitting in a forum once at USC (University of Souther California) for the annual MSA (Muslim Student Association) gathering and I remember an Arab (or Pakistani Muslim) asking some of the Black Student Association members "how come you didn't defend us after 9/11 when we were attacked racially?"

A black student stood up and said "Where were you in 400 years ago when the slave boats docked in West Virginia?" Since this discussion I never had sympathy for many Muslims being checked at the airports. What that whole discussion said was those who are in a previledged position do not understand the disadvantaged group until they become one of the disadvantage themselves. So now many Muslims since post 9/11 want to cry about whay they are unjustly treated (which they are). Martha unless you can walk in the shoes of a minority you'll probably never see racism for what it is.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 11:42pm

Martha unless you can walk in the shoes of a minority you'll probably never see racism for what it is.

Brother, I promise, upon my scout's honure, she sees it, she knows it, but it's terribly terribly English just to look the other way and see nada!



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 12:51am
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

Martha unless you can walk in the shoes of a minority you'll probably never see racism for what it is.

Brother, I promise, upon my scout's honure, she sees it, she knows it, but it's terribly terribly English just to look the other way and see nada!

Unfortunately, it is also typical American to look the other way.



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 4:13am

Whisper, strange that you still post on this topic after having said you find it a pointless debate. But as usual you like to tease, brother.

I always look straightahead. I dont go around in circles like some, including you. I stand by my original statement. I see some racism from both sides, but the original posting by Iftikhar was not correct, and gives a false impression to those who dont understand the situation in the UK. I still find it strange that Iftikhar does not defend his post. He does not actively take part in this topic, one that he started. Dont tell me that he finds it pointless too. He should give more evidence if he has any.

So Whisper,you choose to stereotype me. As you like. Fortunately I can take whatever you dish out

Salaams brother



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 5:29am

 

 I am surprised why friends could not understand the problem of martha. She has accepted Islam. But she is not happy with what the Muslims are doing today. It takes some time to fully understand and assimilate ones self with the new faith people.

 For example (very short example), if the muslims of UK are not doing well, they are led by ignorant bigots, then it becomes difficult for every muslim to live there. Not only martha but others too may have to hide themselves.  Am I on the right lines?? If so then a proper good advice can be given to martha to help her along. There is nothing bad. There is no harm done.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 03 January 2008 at 3:00pm

Some of the things that helped me to understand muslims better was studying the history and politics of the region.  Often we are given one sided information in the west and it takes a diligent person to find the truth and see things from both sides.  We can't justify all the actions of either side, but it makes a person more aware and compassionate if they can try to understand the full scope of the muslims current situation.

I am proud to be a muslim and when someone questions my religious choice then I take the time to explain some things to them about my choices.  I talk about Islamic history and beliefs and general world history to help them see things better.  Some people get bored by it and just stop asking and others ask more questions.  Being a muslim in the west certainly has its difficulties, more than it should.  I just think there are positive ways to be a muslim and alleviate non-muslim fears so they can be more understanding.



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 04 January 2008 at 3:16am

Salaams sister Salams_wife,

I try every day to understand both sides in everyday life in the UK because it is important to me. I have had no end of discussions with asian muslims in particular when I lived in London.

And minuteman seems to grasp my point quite well.

I am not ashamed to have accepted Islam, but at the end of the day it remains very personal to me.

But I agree with you sister, there are positive ways to be a muslim. But many muslims here do not feel the same as you or I. I also have explained Islam to many non-muslims when it has been the right time to do so. Many English people know my story, how I accepted Islam and the sacrifices I made. Unfortunately some muslims and their actions have had made it more difficult.



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 05 January 2008 at 8:38am

Whisper, strange that you still post on this topic after having said you find it a pointless debate. But as usual you like to tease, brother.

Any debate can spice up a bit after my favourite Israfil or Hayfa drop in!



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 05 January 2008 at 8:45am

For example (very short example), if the muslims of UK are not doing well, they are led by ignorant bigots, then it becomes difficult for every muslim to live there.

How very interesting analysis!

Shall we then take it that what some people (be it they Muslims or whoever) doing in the UK is actually instigated by some Rasputinic biggots and not by UK attrocities in the Mid East and other parts of the Muslim world?

Your answer will be a great help in my education.



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Sasha Khanzadeh



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