We all love jokes.

But, I love nothing more than good historical jokes. And, I came across one that could even beat the joke of the year; Mush�s speech on being sworn in as the President of Paquiland! (wonder if you have readit?)

This joke is about India and her past.

Someone seems to be not just implying, but asserting as if India has always been like our good old Brits left it after their near perfect mutilation of the place.

Path of history is a very strange one and if we care to look at it, with just a wee fine intellectual tools, we find that all invaders and occupier were in fact the same, with mere nominal variations of the bit here and a wee bit there kind.

They were always invaders and occupiers and our good ol� Brits were no different than anyone of their day.

The question about India is very simple.

Why was every Tom, Dick and Christopher Columbus dying to find a direct overnight beeline sort of a route to that country? Our Christopher did manage to reach just a wee this side of that fabled land called India. But please refrain your laughter at his founding of the West Indies as at least it does breed good Cricketers!

Was the whole world be trying to get to India had it been some worn out Ford Fiesta left somewhere in the middle of a football pitch, by naughty kids, after their post binge drinking joy ride?

No.

It was just because India had been the world�s largest single economy since the 14^th century. She turned out 72% of the Global Produce. Must apologise, this produce didn�t include mobile phones or plasma televisions, but nevertheless it was 72% of the global produce.

India was the richest single nation on our then known earth.

I don�t know what Navajo Indians were doing in that day, but I definitely know the conditions that existed in any London, Lisbon or Paris of that period. And, I would refrain from talking about any such appalling conditions just out of a sense of pity or, you could even count me in as saying out of plain simple disgust.

India was a balanced society, with her own very rich culture.

And, as if all of that could have been attained without a well ground education system? is the joke! This system served her people, of all colours, all shades, all nationalities and not to forget, all religions, well. This system was destroyed because some Lord Macauley had to plant something that would serve just the Westminster.

The other good joke is: the Brits set up hospitals!

It reads as if los pobre Indianos hadn�t had the world�s finest health care system and for some unknown centuries? (Though, I am tempted to ask if these hospitals were set up by the Oxfam? Or, were paid for by some Mike Smith�s tax-deductible contributions, from somewhere in Somerset?)

India had a whole string of such health systems.

Shall we just count the Ayurvedic and the Tibbiya as the two best known systems for now? These systems evolved through centuries of her peaceful history � prior to the arrival of the great angels and their hospitales.

Both of these systems run without any SIDE EFFECTS.

And, today, all educated and well-informed world is trying to switch back to these systems, though these are now known as the Alternative Therapies!

India was a place in which people of all shades, of all religions and of more than 82 different nationalities did co-exist for around 1071 years and almost in a near ideal manner. Yes, there was always an odd incident here and a bit of a row there, but in general, the society on the whole reached their own adjustments, from within and went bye enjoying their gifts.

The Brits crept in, with just a nominal trade concession and set up a nominal cowshed type of a warehouse, at Pondechari circa 1770. They swore (I have no idea on what) that their sole aim was to trade with this great country and make just bit of dosh for the poor folks at home.

But, in fact, they were smuggling guns.

Must have had some other designs. Somehow the great train Robbers and a few other criminals spring to mind!

The East India Company would not have had a single pence invested in it if the prospect wasn�t the best in that era. I will skip slimy Clive�s role in all of this, that will need a whole volume to see how thieves and crooks are converted into Lords when they rob others.

In 1857, all nationalities, from across India arose against the Brits.

This First war of Indian Independence was crushed for a horde of reasons, primarily, by the occupiers� superior firepower.

Mayo Commission was set up in 1861.

This commission decided to act on the partition plan in 1894 �exactly, by sowing hatred at the district level. Refer to the Gazettes of Imperial India to find out what tactics were deployed. I am not going to waste my time in pasting 1000s of pages here.

One of the posters, I believe, from that part of the world seems to have added a bit of massala to this joke, by adding that the Brits allowed everyone to practice their religion freely!

What a poor implication as if all others who were in India before them didn�t?

I am a bit tied up right at this minute with a whole range of items at hand.

I wish I had the time to present the Brit role in sabotaging the Mid East peace has been from the date of the Balfour Letter through the various stage of their duplicity in the Twice Promised land!

I won�t have the time even to expose Brit atrocities in Africa, not just in massacring hundreds of thousands of Jomo Kenyata�s (Mau Mau) supporters, but also their hand in their Sudan campaigns.

I would be interested in knowing who first authorised the use of Mustard Gas and aerial bombardment of civilians?

-         No need to Google it. It was Winston Churchill who sanction the death of 60,000 Iraqis in 1922

-         But of course in the National Interest!

If any Brits wish ever to speak with me on any matters of their superior conduct, please, do that only once you have dealt with your latest crimes against humanity champion: Tony Blair.

Also, please, I must inform you that I am an Afghan, the Brits tried to occupy us twice, once in 1843 and then again in 1883. We finished off the 16,000 strong invading army, but just let Colonel Bryden off - with a special message for the British Crown, inscribe on his back, in an indelible dye.

This worked and they never ventured again.

But it seems, they had forgotten the most vital lesson of history and have invaded us again after a whole 118 years (in 2001), perhaps, under the illusions of their special relationship with los Amrecanos!.

That vital lesson of history is just plain and simple:

You can never occupy those who are willing to die for their freedom!

I would request the pobre Marthas of our world to do a bit of real history, away from the one purveyed by some daily Mail or the Mirror, before replying to this post.

The problem is not that Whisper is wrong in his beliefs, but it is the fact that it becomes repetitive. It almost seems like the brother has a "thousand and one" things to say about world politics which is fine, but when I see thread after thread after thread with him as the author, it looks more like spam than an actual thread we can discuss in. It is better to be more considerate of others who want to discuss something, political or otherwise than to spam the whole thread with in my opinion, pointless dialect about what the U.S. and others have done. Especially since most of his posts are political they should go in the appropriate section not here in the general.

The trouble with political beliefs here is Muslims are willing to disassociate themselves with others Muslims because of those beliefs. We all disagree on some things and we agree on some things however when certain beliefs are expressed here as a point to attack other members and their national origin it becomes ridiculous. How would you guys like it (and it has happened before) if someone spammed how much Islam is wrong here? I'm sure the moderators would jump in obviously since this is Muslim website. But what if such activities were allowed? Or what if a poster constantly posted threads that simply argued against the principles of Islam but in a most gentle way?

I think all of us would have a big problem with it. The porblem with politics is that people will never be satisfied with anything. I remember before Condolezza Rice became Secretary of Defense her name was barely mentioned. Now when Colin Powell left, now she has become the target of criticism here. Now that we have come to the end oh Bush's term, I'm sure the next president if he or she is not supportive of our ideologies will be the butt of criticism here as well. This is why politics especially for those of us who are not in the profession is dumb to discuss. More importantly its good to share facts on currevent events but its also more important to put appropriate topics in the appropriate places.

The problem is not that Whisper is wrong in his beliefs, but it is the fact that it becomes repetitive.

My friend, these are not my beliefs. These are pure simple straight facts of history. Not of some remote pre-stoneage history, but of pretty recent 19th and the 20th century history. It does flatter me to see you hit the perfectly irrelevant words on seeing my posts.

Brother, it's not political either, but jsut about jokes, sheer jokes spun by our masters, to keep us chained to our brands of patriotism. Jokes born out of our failure or, shall we say, by our perpetual hesitance at calling spades what they really are!

I understand and apprecaite the fact that, at times, we carry such deep shame of our bloodstained flags that the moment anyone mentions anything about a stain, we rush to hit the "hide it" button without even stopping to think, for an iota of a second about the vintage or the exact location of the spot!

My brother, it's very kind of you to invite us (in fact, at times press us) to line up behind you and mourn those stains on your flag, in utter silence. But as humans, you will agree, we hold much greater duty to keep those millions whose blood is spalettered on your such a sacred flag.

My brother, my deep sympathies for you. I would have enjoyed your post more had it been some treatment of these Historical facts. I didn't realise that our Resident Philosopher has dropped to a point where he can now just shout or, at best, slanders all things that fail to hail the Stars n Stripes.

My best regards, nevertheless.

 I don't quite agree with whisper about the British bashing. The British occupied India. What about Muslims?? What did they do?? Did they also not do the same thing?? I feel that it is a political matter and no one can be blamed for doing what they did.

 We should look to the good things of the British too. Indians were the subjects of the Mughals before the British arrived. When the British came, the Indians became the subjects of the British.

I don't quite agree with whisper about the British bashing.

My exceptionally dear brother, when Whisper starts British Bashing the Brits will have to cough up trillions of pounds in compensation to the poor Indians.

These are mere Historical Facts, I have not added any commentary at all + I have just listed some of the most innocent ones. I haven't mentioned the superb Bengal weavers whos fingers were chopped off or the famous Bengal famine that was manufactured almost on the lines of the Irish famine, of almost the same period.

Before you start on Whisper bashing just for appeasing one of your occupiers, please, do remember that my family and I are on record for denouncing all colours of invasions and occupations. My great great garndfather (Memrez Salk) set the tradition, by walking out of the Military Governors' position and handing in his Imperial Sword and uniform, in 1751. Our 3.2 million strong Khaliqia community is the result, we have Sikh, Hindus, Muslims and Christian members, across India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

I just stand for Human Rights (Huqqoq el Ibaad) and nada else. All I am saying is that all invaders are exactly the same no matter what the Marthas of our world try to portray.

That is simply my point. I find it futile to bash any of these Sunset powers, be it the Brits or our pobre Americanos. I wish you would understand just this simple point. 

These are pure simple straight facts of history

Whisper, you tend to assume that simply because you don't say anything at all, the article therefore is not your personal opinion. The reason I may believe these articles you put on the threads ARE YOUR OPINION is obviously, from previous experience you have shown contempt for the leaders of these countries. You have revealed your position and don't give me that crap that you are impartial to the articles you post. If you didn't at least have an interest of belief in them, you wouldn't post it. I mean, FFS! there are things the United States as well as western countries that have done that is good that I have not seen you (or any other member) have done that was positive. Oh, but I'm sure western countries do not do anything positive.

Brother, it's not political either, but jsut about jokes

My brother, it's very kind of you to invite us (in fact, at times press us) to line up behind you and mourn those stains on your flag

Nonsensical jargon. I hope you honestl don't believe what you are saying?

Your posts are not poliitcal? Yea ok keep believing that.

I understand and apprecaite the fact that, at times, we carry such deep shame of our bloodstained flags that the moment anyone mentions anything about a stain, we rush to hit the "hide it" button without even stopping to think, for an iota of a second about the vintage or the exact location of the spot!

I wonder if you talk and think like this in real life. This isn't about shame of my country or wanting to hide its about being annoyed seeing 10 threads with various subjects which are inheritently political and belong in the world politics section. I really don't care for the opinions of others about the U.S. really. Yes I share my view in disagreement but that is what everyone here does. I'm very opinionated as you know, and have no qualms about speaking out against what others have done (including myself) so whether you believe I'm this patriotic fool I don't know. However, Muslims here cannot say if our Muslim leaders do any better, we aere just like any other citizens of any country. There is no country nor a leader muslim and non-muslim alike that is a beacon of a peaceful civilization.

There's so much happening in our daily lives, in these interesting times. Why are you trying to contain pobre us just to one post each? And, also decide what kinds and flavours we can post?

My threads are on different SUBJECTS / ANGLES the only thing that stands common in my threads is the Anglo-American axis of evil connection.

My brother, if you my pots cause any temperature or blood pressure problem, I suggest, just don't read them. And, if you are so incensed by them, please, do stand up for your nation and take these on with facts - instead of always whinning "wny don't they say something good about us?"

minuteman wrote: I don't quite agree with whisper about the British bashing. The British occupied India. What about Muslims?? What did they do?? Did they also not do the same thing?? I feel that it is a political matter and no one can be blamed for doing what they did.  We should look to the good things of the British too. Indians were the subjects of the Mughals before the British arrived. When the British came, the Indians became the subjects of the British.

Let me add my two cents on bro Sasha's behalf!

Your comments are like comparing apples with oranges!

The Mughals from emperors Akbar on were natural  Indians- born of Indian women on Indian soil. India was their homeland. They never made their capital in Ferghana Valley or Kabul.

As migration of people is a natural phenomena, the Dravidian people of course may have a right to complain being the original Indians that Aryans subjugated God knows when and started the awful tradition!

Whereas you couldn't say the directors of East India Company or the viceroys of queens or kings of Briton were natural born Indians! Their job was to bleed India as much as possible and ASAP.

Their home was London or any shires some where there.

You could not find anything common between these two situations.

Whereas the emperor Akbar was so lax in his religion that the Hindus had more sway in his court than the Muslims and ended up creating his own religion to please the Hindus!

Almost all of the Mughals violated the Islamic prohibition of marrying a polytheist woman. Do you see the liberality of their living amongst Indians?
Do you know the Mughals shipped any of the land revenues, the jewels, gold and diamonds and the like to Kabul or Ferghana Valley?

Now if you can't see the difference between the citizen of a independent nation vs an indentured slave in a colony I can't help you there!

  The Indians became exactly that a number in the East India plantations just like American Southern states just for board and lodging  and harsh punishment for any infraction to boot!

Probably you might like  to visit  some of the old plantation sites and see the slaves living conditions and to be chained at night like the animals

I have seen those places and believe you me it wasn't a pretty site at all. They could be a little lenient in the Indian plantations but not much!

I had a colleague long time ago whose dad was a  plantation foreman in British Indian days and the stories of sexual abuse of the women he used to tell was mind boggling and disgusting.

BTW what is your location I mean country so I might locate some close by for you to look if possible!

 Yes, they must have done (sucked a lot of money). But that was the bad luck of the bad works done by the Indians for a very long time. The Mughals and the rulers had enjoyed quite a lot of comfort with their spending so much money on palaces (see Taj Mahal) and gardens and dancing/ singing. What was the use of those?? Had they spent something on education and progress of the people (mankind), there would not have been any British in the subcontinent.

 I feel that Sher Shah Suri was the only wise ruler in India who ruled for five years (only five years).

The colonization of much of the world by Europeans is probably one of the most destructive actions that isstill affecting those lands in a negative way today.

I have yet to see a benefit to the whole system for the people of those lands.  

But such bad things are not known about the British Raaj in India.

Sir, just stop your history carriage just for less than a moment so that I can at least fix it's punctures. Such things are "Not Known" or you are not "allowed to Know" or is it just that you care not to know?

Just answer us these and I will take time out, despite being exceptionally busy, in matters of critical importance at this moment.

And, please, could you advise, educate or enlighten us on Muhammad Shah Rangeela or about his stand against the sly British enemy?

Before we go any further on this or any other topic, just let me know one simple thing. Have you ever heard of a thing spelt ess pee eye en? And, that too if it's a Brit SPIN?

Ever known something called CHARACTER ASSASINATION? And, that too of the sly Brits?

British reaching as far as Kabul in those days. What a divine plan? And, may I beg you not to blame Allah for any such blatant human greed.

How many days did your great Brits stay in Kabul? Kindly, count and inform us, I am waiting for this info now that you have entered my territory.

Let me add my two cents on bro Sasha's behalf!
Two cents, brother? At least a good �2.5 billion worth of a post. Paa jee zindabaad

 instead of always whinning "wny don't they say something good about us?"

Brother, I had the compulsion to repeat myself about what I mentioned earlier, but instead Iwill not say anything.

My brother, I am exceptionally lucky, I have been granted the time and the energy, plus absolute lack of any fear, of anyone other than the One and the Only. It is my premier duty, as a civilised man, not merely as a muslim, to stand firmly against all invasions and occupations. Period.

And, as a Muslim it's our premier responsibility to rise above natinalities and just concern ourself with HUQOOQ EL IBAAD - basic human rights. And, when we haven't done that we must jsut stop calling ourselves Muslims

 British did not remain in Kabul for long. But the king of the Afghans was paying tribute / money to the British for his country safety. That was as good as reaching Kabul. Let us leave Kabul out and come to the subjects and slaves please.

Instead of asking me any spellings, will you kindly explain some differences in being a British subject and being a British slave. What would you honestly call the people of India under the British rule?? Slaves or Subjects?? That was my important point. But you did not discuss that.

But the king of the Afghans was paying tribute / money to the British for his country safety.

Sir, before you set about penning down an entirely new Afghan history, could you kindly grant me the reference to this assertion?

Who would pay any tribute to someone after wiping out their entire troops? The Afghans ahd escorted Col. Dr Bryden all the way to Rawalpindi Cantonement, with a special message scribbled on his back. That message wasn't about paying any tributes.

will you kindly explain some differences in being a British subject and being a British slave

My most respected Brother, I have never been either for generations so how would I know the difference? You are free to choose any lable of your desire. Who am I to object?

Salaam,

The following hadith is related to the conversion of Ikrimah(ra) son of Abu Jahl (one of islam's and its prophet's greatest enemies).

[....As 'Ikrimah (ra) approached Makkah, the Prophet (saw) told his companions:

"'Ikrimah ibn Abi Jahl shall come to you as a believer and a muhajir (a refugee). Do not insult his father. Insulting the dead causes grief to the living and does not reach the dead."]

Hope you'll get the moral of this hadith.

Whisper wrote: My brother, I am exceptionally lucky, I have been granted the time and the energy, plus absolute lack of any fear, of anyone other than the One and the Only. It is my premier duty, as a civilised man, not merely as a muslim, to stand firmly against all invasions and occupations. Period. And, as a Muslim it's our premier responsibility to rise above natinalities and just concern ourself with HUQOOQ EL IBAAD - basic human rights. And, when we haven't done that we must jsut stop calling ourselves Muslims

How is this relevant to me?

The following hadith is related to the conversion of Ikrimah(ra) son of Abu Jahl (one of islam's and its prophet's greatest enemies)

May God bless you. Is this meant for this thread in any way?

How is this relevant to me?

Brother, I love you a lot, but just a wee this side of thinking for you.

Whisper,

No one needs to tell you that you present us with the facts, everytime. I'm not disagreeing with you. You know your stuff.

And that is fine. I have no problem with that.

But I still dont understand why you continue to allow the seed of hate to grow within you, regarding the 'brits' It affects you to an extent that it is not healthy.

I, as a person do nothing to stir up the hatred in your heart. You do that all by yourself. It is a fixation because you hate the 'brits'. Yet you love to taunt me, everytime. Brother, I tell you, I will not rise to the bait.

I am a fellow muslim. I'm sorry you feel I am not a worthy person to have accepted Islam ,probably on the basis that I am British. If you understand Islam at all, you will know that your approach is not right.

Islam is a peaceful religion, but muslims can and do change the message that the Prophet Muhammed (pbuH)has given us.Muslims also have much to answer for at this time. Also you are not at peace. Would it not be better to tackle these current problems (facts)? 

Perhaps you would not object to a white British muslim revert offering prayer for you?

failing that, I suppose I can offer you my head on a plate ?

I am a fellow muslim. I'm sorry you feel I am not a worthy person to have accepted Islam ,probably on the basis that I am British. If you understand Islam at all, you will know that your approach is not right.

I have all my sympathies for you and your state of mind. Cann you, please, show me just one single sentence that justifys this comment.

Plus, what makes you assume that I am a Muslim? Or that I could be of any colour other than white? Is this some kind of a reflection of your own raciality?

But I still dont understand why you continue to allow the seed of hate to grow within you, regarding the 'brits' It affects you to an extent that it is not healthy.

I have laid out some plain simple historical facts on the table, these have nothing to do with my personal domain of love or hate.

If you consider calling a spade a spade as hatred then I would suggest you must contact your GP, without any loss of time. I am from a medic family and I promise, it's an extremely serious matter. It would be wise to get help right now. You are suffering from deep delusional paranoa.

failing that, I suppose I can offer you my head on a plate?

Be honest what will I do with such a head? I am a natural vegetarian.

The state of your post has forced me to change the title of my post to; For Pobre Marthas of our World.

I don't just want you to, but I actually challenge you to justify your provocative statement:

I'm sorry you feel I am not a worthy person to have accepted Islam

Salaam Whisper,

Brother,your questioning of my previous post's relevance to this thread,i should say,surprised me.One thing,i thought the hadith i mentioned meant,was to "not dig up the past if it only serves to hurt the present and is not going to change anything anyway".

Your facts and many more on the atrocities of the British empire is undeniable and i believe the present day Brits accept it too.But to expect them to shoulder the blame for the sins of their ancestors,i think is unfair.I know your intent in this thread was to pass through some historical facts and nothing malicious but some may view otherwise.Ergo,i thought it was proper to follow the Prophet's(pbuh) example,so as to not cause enmity.

Salaam Whisper,

My friend, I am honoured by your explanation, yet that hadith relates to and is valid at the personal level.

YES, we should not hurt anyone at that level. My posts are not meant at any personal level at all, I promise, don't hurt people. Yes, at times, some extremely unstable people do somehow manage to force themselves to get hurt by sheer plain facts of history. I have no desire, the intention or even the time for hurting anyone, I am a very happy go lucky sort of a jolly fella!

Are you trying to praech to us that this hadith or any other for that matter, requires us to bury knowledge or push facts of History under some carpet? I can promise you any such ahadith would be just regular issues of some colonial office, somewhere on our earth!

My friend, as a civilsed people, not just as Muslims, it's our first and foremost duty to fight injustice of any kind, at all levels and anywhere. Invasions and occupation are straight simple crimes against humanity whatever their pretexts. Thank you for advising us not to even Whisper about these.

If your British friends have really found out about the reality of their attrocious past and they really feel about it then how about compensations for all their pobre victims of their greed?

And, if they have really grown to those political and cultural levels then what the hell are thier boys doing, right TODAY, in Iraq and AFGHANISTAN?

Just waiting for your answer and some ahadith for what should be done when people invade, massacre and abuse humans just as a part of their routines!!

Salaam Whisper,

Brother,i wasnt in anyway preaching that the hadith required us to bury facts.My point was,to not use the facts in a way that "only" serves to hurt people who have already accepted the facts and nothing good could be expected of it.Perhaps you should direct the facts to whom it might be relevant.

who have already accepted the facts and nothing good could be expected of it.Perhaps you should direct the facts to whom it might be relevant.

Great idea! They have accepted the facts? Could you kindly post a list of people these facts seem to be hurting?

Are you hurt by these facts?

Are you hurt by these facts?

Offcourse not!But most of us know this.What the British empire did is no secret.Their own people have published books on it.People know now and accept.So whats the point in reminding them over and over again?I understand your zeal to stand against injustice.So whatever injustice is happening today,as a good muslim,i'll stand with you against it.The past is past.

The past is past.

Good luck to you and your stance, my brother. You will never see me stopping you from dealing with the past as you please. I am free to deal with it the way as I please.

What percentage of Brits know what they have been doing to the world? Ask our Martha, she has been telling us that they were just short of turning into angels when they were in that part of the world. And, that part of the world was always like as they had left it.

Are you not asking me to be unjust to the Palestinians and all those poor Kashmiris by turning a blind eye to how the Brits engineered these two burning sores of our world?

Are you from the sub-continent? Why I ask because our Indian and Pakistan brethern are more apologetic than even their colonial masters, for hushing up their misdeeds. The day you persuade your friends to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, I will listen to no one, but just you.

Whisper

Ok so say you accomplish whatever you're trying to accomplished (or you may already have) what is your point? Move on. You haven't established anything here except you're own opinion. Stating facts as I have said before regardless whether they are true are apart of what we believe. If you didn't believe in the things you posted then they wouldn't be associated with what you believe. Like I said, politics, unlike science is quite subjective to the perspective of everyone.

Like I said, politics, unlike science is quite subjective to the perspective of everyone.

My exceptionally dear friend, so there are just these two things in life; politics and science?

It might help you to remember that some, in fact, over 5.7 billion of us (out of the 6 billion world population) do happen to live in a vast and culturally not so starved a world. And, this world does have more things than some people can or are prepared to count.

History is just one of those things. If your country could afford some or if you knew how to spell it, you would have found out that it does play a very deep part on those peoples' minds and psyches who can afford it!

You haven't established anything here except you're own opinion.

Mi Lord, what is a Forum? Is it some research lab? in which we work with just some bare clinical instruments? Or is it where you place opinions and opinions of all shades?

Move on? Where to? Why? Just only because you shudder when History is being touched even in the slightest?

so there are just these two things in life; politics and science?

Yes, because they are two different categories of interest.

It might help you to remember that some, in fact, over 5.7 billion of us (out of the 6 billion world population) do happen to live in a vast and culturally not so starved a world. And, this world does have more things than some people can or are prepared to count.

Your point?

Mi Lord, what is a Forum? Is it some research lab? in which we work with just some bare clinical instruments? Or is it where you place opinions and opinions of all shades?

Move on? Where to? Why? Just only because you shudder when History is being touched even in the slightest?

This is a matter how I interpret your comments. Although you state historical, and current facts, they are ultimately motivated by your opinion which in your unique jargon here state them as if they are universal truths. Not everyone believes the United States and/or Western countries are pre-dominantly negative entities.

Not everyone believes the United States and/or Western countries are pre-dominantly negative entities.

I genuinely love you, my friend, you are just one of those few people in our world who provide us the best laugh in these such interesting times. I also love the fact how you hide in your own ivory tower of logical deductions thinking or, shall we say, believeing just this to be the be all and end all of life!

We all know how many people believe what you are claiming, but would it be, somehow, possible to extract your count of how many do believe that in this day and age? Must try, you won't have to use anything more than the digits of both your hands, for the best count.

I would discuss that in some other thread and at entirely in my own time. I am not going to deviate from this thread, which is entirely about historical events in British India.

My friend, the day your country ends the ugly criminal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, you won't have wash the bloodstains of your flag with your precious tears and such empty posts. Till then, my friend, the occupied will fight at every single front and in every which way.

Whisper, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.

Glad you have had a number of replies to your topic.

The more I read, the funnier it becomes. Still, whatever makes you happy.

I congratulate you on being the best human encyclopedia

Whisper, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.

I never realised that it was at such an advanced stage. Have you booked an appointment with your GP as advised?

Pobres of our world, just forget about history, let's see what these Gaad Fathers of civilisation are doing Right Now!

No wonder Iraqis oppose the U.S. occupation. The organization Just Foreign Policy has estimated that 1,118,846 Iraqis have been killed since Operation Iraqi Freedom began. Australian born journalist John Pilger wrote, "The scale of death caused by the British and U.S. governments may well have surpassed that of the Rwanda genocide, making it the biggest single act of mass murder of the late 20th century and the 21st century."

Yes, because they are two different categories of interest.

Morshed, are you on something very strong these days? I had only asked:

so there are just these two things in life; politics and science?

I have colour coded my question to help you

Whisper,

You stopped short of calling me "the white sahib's minion" and doubt my commitment to our religion and ummah.Let me tell you brother why i choose to neglect, not forget or deny, the past.

Right now i'm not worried about all the massacres,injustices,invasions and occupation our ummah have faced in the past because no matter how much i or you whine and complain about the past,nothing's gonna change.What has happened,has happened.We can only learn from it.

Right now my primary concern is the present state of our ummah.I'm worried about the fratricide and sufferings in many muslim countries.I'm worried about the corrupt state of politics in all muslim nations.I'm worried about the degeneration and disunity in our ummah.You may ask why i left the U.S of A,Brits,Zionists and the rest out of the list.Brother,one thing we learn from history is that "degeneration and disunity are the first steps to downfall.So brother our responsibility as good muslims is to address these first.Not blame everyone else but us for the state we're in.

Now,tell me,What is that you were so desperately trying to prove to all the marthas in the world other than what they already knew.And what is that you're trying to achieve from it,that would be of benefit to our ummah?

Move on brother!We've got a future to work for,here and the hereafter.We go nowhere with our heads in the past and bodies in the present.

And yeah, i'm from Srilanka. 

Thanks a million Saladin for your post.

I like the idea, these are all valid points, you keep educating people on these. And, I will keep Educating Marthas, at least, in this thread. 

Your country right now is not occupied by them, mine is. And, I will fight my enemy a every single front.

History and knowing history IS important. Too many people are in a state of denial about things. I think what is not really understood is the profound affect the actions have on our lives today, espcially those who were affected in very negative ways.

I was recently watching a show on National Public Television. They do very good work. And I forget the name of the host.. he was asking several journalists about what the US should do.. and the western journalists, all pretty good were like.. well if we leave blah, blah, blah.. And there was one Iraqi journalist. His main words were "get out." "You have no idea what you are doing here. You don't know our history, you don't know our culture."

People in the west often do not look at the picture from "the other side" in its international history. I took a class in college on methodologies of history and how the way history is presented shapes our world view.

I think it is important to debunk the myth that governments or rulers really care about the people they oppress or enslave etc. There may have been one or two people in the governemts who approached the people with paternalism, (we need to "educate the heathens or the natives"). But rarely was respect part of it.  

But rarely was respect part of it.

You know what's the problem with your posts?

These shut everybody up, even I have gone just plain speechless.

Yes, the Brits had built hospitals and a lot of other things in India, but not a single one of our friends answered my simple question: who paid for all of these?

I hold firm evidence that our great Queen Victoria didn't auction off her wedding ring to pay for these!

History and knowing history IS important. Too many people are in a state of denial about things. I think what is not really understood is the profound affect the actions have on our lives today, espcially those who were affected in very negative ways.

Agreed. But how much emphasis are we putting into past historical events to contemporary issues? Past historical events are causal factors true, but in discussing policies in a forum setting how much more redundant are we going to make this issue called "history?" Too many people on this planet in general are definitely in denial about a lot of things. Again, we cannot isolate any country, people, or any nation geographically as if one group is ignorant or in denial about a past historical event.

They do very good work. And I forget the name of the host.. he was asking several journalists about what the US should do.. and the western journalists, all pretty good were like.. well if we leave blah, blah, blah.. And there was one Iraqi journalist. His main words were "get out." "You have no idea what you are doing here. You don't know our history, you don't know our culture."

I agree. let the Marines, Army, National guard come home and let them (Iraqi, Afghanistanians) destroy themselves. The government current there is more powerful than the Hoover vaccum.

People in the west often do not look at the picture from "the other side" in its international history. I took a class in college on methodologies of history and how the way history is presented shapes our world view.

Like any other academic study what you've learned in that methodologies course with respect to history, has also shaped your view on past historical events, does what you've learned necessarily make it true? Just a question.

I think it is important to debunk the myth that governments or rulers really care about the people they oppress or enslave etc. There may have been one or two people in the governemts who approached the people with paternalism, (we need to "educate the heathens or the natives"). But rarely was respect part of it.

Agreed.

I also love the fact how you hide in your own ivory tower of logical deductions thinking or, shall we say, believeing just this to be the be all and end all of life!

What ridiculous nonsense! This has nothing to do with hiding. This has to do with being annoyed by posts that sound redundant.

My friend, the day your country ends the ugly criminal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, you won't have wash the bloodstains of your flag with your precious tears and such empty posts. Till then, my friend, the occupied will fight at every single front and in every which way.

The day you post something novel outside the scope of redundancy then will you acheive an enlightened status in my book.

I am not sure but, by writing and posting that opening piece, I think that Whisper might publicly have blown his chance to be invited to join the Grillions dining club.

Serv

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�Black is not just the colour of our skins, it�s the colour of our politics.�  (Ambalavaner Sivanandan)

This has to do with being annoyed by posts that sound redundant.

Oh, thank you, kind Sir, for the award! How many people am I allowed to bring with me at your Redundant investiture ceremony?

The day you post something novel outside the scope of redundancy then will you acheive an enlightened status in my book.

I am trying, trying very hard, Master, to climb into your Book!

I had thought you just lived in your ivory tower, but sadly enough, you live b e y o n d.

Let me make just THE ONLY VALID POINT absolutely clear and in no uncertain TERMS:

My friend, the day your country ends the ugly criminal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, you won't have to wash the bloodstains of your flag with your precious tears and such empty posts.

Do I make myself clear? If you still don't find it as the ONLY VALID point, please let me know for then I will know which entrance to climb your Doomsday book through?

looks like its getting to the brickering point

And, more over, as the fabled Sikh had said, you won't have to hide your assets in some ivory tower!

My next post is coming. It will be titled: For Pobre Israfilii of our World. You pretend to be a Muslim while hugging idols, flags and and other bulls.

Today, I am busy travelling to Manchester, I will do it from there. My friend, see how hard I am trying to climb into your book! 

Whisper look if you are pissed off because I challenge your beliefs and I call them redundant, fine but don't start making posts insulting gestures just because I disagree with you. If you want to be insulting I'll be more insulting than you can inspect and I will get myself in trouble by the way I insult you. Calling me a so-called Muslim just because I f***** disagree with you and call your posts redundant doesn't give you, or any other member the right to challenge the faith of another. Let's get something straight here boy, I'm not some patriotic fool that goes head over heals for the U.S. I love my country yes because this is my birthplace HOWEVER, I acknowledge the ills what this country has done (and continue to do) and I acknowledge that your upset over this. I understand and agree with you but you don't understand that.

However my support for people only go so far and when I sign on and see the same freggin person with post after post after post about how bad America or the west is and all this it makes me think that these posts no matter how factual, are basically done as th result of more of an subtle emotional outburst. Look, you want to make a difference run for a political party in whatever country you reside in and I'll vote for you.

But let's get something straight here and yes I am pissed off typing as of this moment,one thing that pisses me the hell off is when people challenge my faith. I'm sick of this B.S here when Muslims do that to each other. I got called Kafir, fake, non-muslim and the like simply because I have a different view. Man, there are Muslims who own liquor stores and drink liquor themselves. I've busted Muslims owning strip clubs with "Allah posters" in their office. I don't judge their faith because of that, that is between them and God. Fortunately for you Whisper since you don't live here you won't have me in your face but I promise you, if you start making posts using my name with the intention to be satrirical or insulting I will insult you much much worse than I have done in real life and I will be personal. It won't be for the sake of conversation, dialogue, whatever, I will seriously will be insulting. I work and have school I have no time to bicker with someone who lives thousands of miles from me over something as small as politics. Life is too short. live the life God gives you and understand that some people just don't agree with you and move on.

I started not to respond to you when I read half of your post and just let it go, but when you challenge me calling me a "so-called Muslim" who worships the idols that is a personal attack. I'm warning you and moderators here, if you do that I will become an a**hole and if any other members here participate I will be a serious a***hole to them to. You have a choice.

*Note* The difference between me calling your posts redundant and your remarks is, I didn't challenge your personal beliefs. When I said you ned to right something novel I'm saying you need to write something beyond the usual scope in politics. Other members agree with you and that is fine, but one thing you have to understand is post after post after post it sounds more of an emotional thing. This is how I interpreted that! just like how you interpret my post. But, you don't see me going around making threads specifically for members so I can prove them wrong I mean, we all have views and I'm one of them and I'm simply opinionated. but one thing I will not do is disrespect you by insulting your faith or questioning that because, I don't know you in real life. But Whisper what you said above is uncalled for so I implore you, don't make this situation ugly.

Duende wrote: Please, if this is true, then why do you bother posting? Your post has immediately sunk to new depths of ugliness with assurances of insults to come!

Whisper shouldn't have said what he said. 

Quite simply: you are fed up with Whisper, but surely the better way to handle this would be not to dignify his provocations with threats and bluster...?

Israfil did hold off till that moment, I knew whisper was going to get a bunch of words from Israfil when I saw whisper mention such and such

I don't want to see either of you banned!

me too.

I think its time for time out.

Israfil wrote: The problem is not that Whisper is wrong in his beliefs, but it is the fact that it becomes repetitive. It almost seems like the brother has a "thousand and one" things to say about world politics which is fine, but when I see thread after thread after thread with him as the author, it looks more like spam than an actual thread we can discuss in. It is better to be more considerate of others who want to discuss something, political or otherwise than to spam the whole thread with in my opinion, pointless dialect about what the U.S. and others have done. Especially since most of his posts are political they should go in the appropriate section not here in the general. The trouble with political beliefs here is Muslims are willing to disassociate themselves with others Muslims because of those beliefs. We all disagree on some things and we agree on some things however when certain beliefs are expressed here as a point to attack other members and their national origin it becomes ridiculous. How would you guys like it (and it has happened before) if someone spammed how much Islam is wrong here? I'm sure the moderators would jump in obviously since this is Muslim website. But what if such activities were allowed? Or what if a poster constantly posted threads that simply argued against the principles of Islam but in a most gentle way? I think all of us would have a big problem with it. The porblem with politics is that people will never be satisfied with anything. I remember before Condolezza Rice became Secretary of Defense her name was barely mentioned. Now when Colin Powell left, now she has become the target of criticism here. Now that we have come to the end oh Bush's term, I'm sure the next president if he or she is not supportive of our ideologies will be the butt of criticism here as well. This is why politics especially for those of us who are not in the profession is dumb to discuss. More importantly its good to share facts on currevent events but its also more important to put appropriate topics in the appropriate places.

Sister herjihad answered you on this quite appropriately.

I would say you have an awful habit that you can�t help but to knock any and all things said anti establishment. The internet forums were created for this purpose worldwide and that is the way it is whether you like it or not!

The smart thing would have been if you went and did some research to rebut his jokes about the Brits. What would you know about them anyways? But no, you just want to broadside the whole thing being picayune!

It is rude and bad manners trying to teach brother Sasha the rules of posting the threads. You are not a mod yet, so cool it. If his philosophy is beyond your pale you must accept that

Darn it life is repetitive don�t you go on the same beat every day wearing the same weird uniform unless you work undercover! You do most things which are redundant in life but necessary.

And what appropriate section are you talking about than this?

Sign reader, please don�t spend time in analyzing the thread so you can hit out more about israfil, I�m sure you got better things to do. If its not about Britain and India then I am liable to come back to you mentioning that you are derailing the thread also.

I can see that your new favourite word is knucklehead.

It would be a gesture of respect if we all did held a moment of silence for those who had perished in this dark and gruesome age of our time. However, we should find a feasible solution rather than bickering about problems that disunite and perpetuate endlessly in eyes of imperial masters. Nevertheless, a rich post.

Peace, Palestine

In keeping with certain parts of Sign*Reader�s post (and because I think he'll be able to appreciate it):

By the way, for those who might be wondering, when I said that Whisper, by writing his opening post, has probably forfeited his invitation to Grillions dining club, I took the reference from one of my (political) girlfriends, the late Hannah Arendt, who described Benjamin Disraeli�s successful attempt, it turns out, to work his way into the until then �restricted� dining club. (I am not sure, but I think that he managed to get admission to the dining club before he declared Queen Victoria the Empress of India.)

Serv

1) http://hnn.us/articles/14828.html - http://hnn.us/articles/14828.html

2) Arendt, Hannah, The Origins of Totalitarianism, Harcourt, Brace & world, Inc., New York, 1951, p. 71

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�Racism and Imperialism work in tandem and poverty is their handmaiden.�  (Ambalavaner Sivanandan)

Look, you want to make a difference run for a political party in whatever country you reside in and I'll vote for you.

My friend, an absolutely interesting thought, it would work for some who aren't already in a position to make the difference without leaning on votes or someone's approval of some other kind.

We are making far greater a difference than you might realise in our own way. I know, it's hard for you to understand that some people do take up a position for far stronger reasons than some subtle emotional whatever you said!

I will post, from now, not 10 but 30 posts evey single day about the US and her crimes - TILL THE US OCCUPIES MY LAND AND KEEPS KILLING MY PEOPLE.

If you don't like it, please, knock at the doors of those (closer home) who are doing it in your name.

It's your chance to make a difference even without even getting into an election.

Let me start my response with the following quote: Your post has
immediately sunk to new depths of ugliness with assurances of insults to
come!

Now allow me to set the record straight. Someone who says: You pretend to be a Muslim while hugging idols, flags and and other bulls.

Is uncalled for point blank. Just because I share a different belief politically, socially, or religiously opposite of someone else does not give anyone the right to challenge someone else's religious faith. So I'm "pretending to be Muslim" because I don't have the same views as you? Interesting coming from someone who supposedly has a clear conscious. So yes Duende I'm going to respond nasty when my own personal beliefs are challenged because they are called "personal beliefs." I know Whisper is your friend so obviously you as a Muslim will not condemn this act. I know I say a lot of things and many of you take them negatively, but what I will not do is make personal attacks about someone else's religious faith. This takes dicussion beyond the realm of dialogue into personal slander.

Whatever happened to Muslims not judging each others deen? Whatever happened to fearing Allah?

Now let me say again that any member regardless who they are wishes to make personal attacks on me of course I'm going to bring it 10x fold and I will hurt peoples feelings definitely. Let me tell everyone the kind of person I am so you have an understanding of what kind of person I am. In real life, I'm one of the most nicest guys you will ever meet. If I know you I will invite you in my house and take care of you. If you're my friend I am willing to put my life on the line for you with thought. Now, of course we all have human tendencies to say the wrong things and these tendencies sometimes blind us to reason and I know many times here and in real life I'm guilty of that.

But the slanderous things I've experienced in my life and on here I will not tolerate especially those who maliciously challenge my faith. I take my faith in God really serious and of course, many of you do not see that (because I choose to seperate the seriousness of my faith in God from internet chat). When individuals cross the line between online dialogue to personal slander ( I become worse than the individual promoting the slander). When I am personally attacked,  I will not only talk about you, I will take about anything you associate with (country, ethnic group, language whatever) yes I know it sounds uglu and contradicts what I personally believe. But, because I interpret personal attacks as challenging the fabric of my personal beliefs I stand for (I find some beliefs to be interconnected) I will feel that you are not only challenging my faith but everyone that has structured my faith (yes my beliefs are complex-but so are humans). But personally, I feel online discussions shouldn't have to come to that really. For the most part majority of us are able to reason and let things go and I will let things go here.

All I'm saying to Whisper is to keep his mouth shut (in this case his fingers) about who is Muslim and who is not. I will make the first step and apologize to forum members including whisper on my outburst. It was unprofessional, unethical, and ignorant. It was childish and did not benefit me at all except become angry. With respect to the "redundant" posts I still feel that way because the "proof is in the pudding." However in political discussions with respect to Western Powers I will make an effort to not become involved. I hope everyone in the forum will accept my apology for my behavior (including Whisper) and if you choose not to accept that is your choice.

All I ask members here is to respect my beliefs and keep their personal feelings to themselves. It also serves as a warning to members in the sense of being careful who you attack. This not only goes for others but including myself. I'm always "God conscious" and I know I will be held accountable for what I say here and I sincerely hope God forgives me.

As'Salaamu Alaikum ya Muslimeen wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh

Assalamu Alaikum,

Without personal attacks and name-calling, the discussion would have been great; it is sad to see all this happen here; something that could have been avoided. May Allah guide us all.