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Why is this offensive?

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Topic: Why is this offensive?
Posted By: Chelle
Subject: Why is this offensive?
Date Posted: 26 November 2007 at 6:23pm

There is a story in the news today about a British schoolteacher in Sudan who was arrested for letting her schoolchildren name their class teddy bear Muhammad.  20 out of 23 students picked this as their favorite name.  Yet when the parents found out, they complained and the teacher was arrested.  I don't want to offend anyone myself by asking about this, but I just don't understand.

Here's the story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21973378/?GT1=10547 - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21973378/?GT1=10547

Sudan arrests teacher over 'Mohammed' bear

Briton allowed her class of 7-year-olds to choose teddy bear's name

updated 5:15 a.m. PT, Mon., Nov. 26, 2007 KHARTOUM, Sudan - A British primary school teacher has been arrested in Sudan, accused of insulting Islam's Prophet by letting her class of 7-year-olds name a teddy bear Muhammad, her school said on Monday.

Colleagues of Gillian Gibbons told Reuters they feared for her safety after receiving reports that young men had already started gathering outside the Khartoum police station where the Liverpool woman was being held.

Teachers at Unity High School in central Khartoum said Gibbons, 54, made an innocent mistake and simply let her pupils choose their favorite name for the toy as part of a school project.

Police arrested Gibbons on Sunday at her home inside the school premises, said Unity director Robert Boulos, after a number of parents made a complaint to Sudan's Ministry of Education.

Boulos said she had since been charged with "blasphemy," an offense he said was punishable with up to three months in prison and a fine.

A spokesman from the British Embassy in Khartoum said it was still unclear whether Gibbons had been formerly charged. "We are following it up with the authorities and trying to meet her in person," he said.

Boulos said he had decided to close down the school until January for fear of reprisals in Sudan's predominantly Muslim capital. "This is a very sensitive issue."

"We are very worried about her safety," he added. "This was a completely innocent mistake. Miss Gibbons would have never wanted to insult Islam."

Class voted on toy name
Boulos said Gibbons was following a British National Curriculum course designed to teach young pupils about animals and their habitats. This year's animal was the bear.

Gibbons, who joined Unity in August, asked a girl to bring in her teddy bear to help the second grade class focus, said Boulos.

The teacher then asked the class to name the toy. "They came up with eight names including Abdullah, Hassan and Mohammed. Then she explained what it meant to vote and asked them to choose the name." Twenty out of the 23 children chose Muhammad.

Each child was allowed to take the bear home at weekends and asked to write a diary about what they did with the toy. Each entry was collected in a book with a picture of the bear on the cover, next to the message "My name is Muhammad," said Boulos.

The bear itself was not marked or labeled with the name in any way, he added, saying Sudanese police had now seized the book and had asked to interview the 7-year-old girl.

Boulos said the first he knew about the course was last week when he got a phone call from the Ministry of Education, saying a number of Muslim parents had made formal complaints.

One Muslim teacher at Unity, who also has a child in Gibbons' class, said she had not found the project offensive.

"I had no problem with it at all," the teacher said. "I know Gillian and she would never have meant it as an insult. I was just impressed that she got them to vote."

The country's state-controlled Sudanese Media Centre reported late Sunday that Gibbons had been arrested for "insulting the Prophet Muhammad." It said charges were being prepared "under article 125 of the criminal law" which covers insults against faith and religion.

No one was immediately available for comment from Sudan's ministries of Education or Justice.

Unity, an independent school founded in 1902, is governed by a board representing major Christian denominations in Sudan, but teaches both Christians and Muslims aged 4 to 18.




Replies:
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 12:55am

It was probably a misunderstanding on behalf of the parents who might have thought that she intentially did it to offend the prophet. Also, in Islam, we are to respect all prophets, not just Mohammed, there would have been the same unfortunate results if the teddy bear had been named Jesus or Moses or any other prophets name. This is because in Islam we are to revere and respect all prophets and to name a teddy bear after one of them would be viewed as not befitting to a prophets high held status in Muslims hearts and even in any Christian or Jews heart. Im sure you as a westerner might think what is the big deal and probably this may seem as a bit too extreme of a reaction, but it is just out of strong respect to them that we do not associate them with anything that may seem belittling to their status.

 



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 1:20am

You know, there are many many people with the name Muhammad with varies spellings. Many people have the name Jesus also, not so much with Mose I don't think, but some people have named their cat moses.

So with naming a teddy bear, the problem is....

I understand the respect but if many people have these names then there shouldn't really be a problem with naming a teddy bear.

Being in that kind of area with things being sensitive perhaps it should have been wise to check about it.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 2:50am

 

 The reply from Arab was concise, exact and explainatory. Imagine some children in a class naming a dog as Jesus in a christian country. What would be the reaction of the parents to that dog being called Jesus. I believe no one will take it happily. In England and elsewhere, there are laws to protect the honor of Jesus. Such a bad deed may come under blasphemy.

 Also it was silly of that teacher to have named the bear as Muhammad. I am sure being a teacher, she knew who was Muhammad. Why the teacher did it?? There were so many other names available. There is no shortage of names. So it was an under cover bad work of the teacher and the teacher should be severely reprimanded.

 There is a very remote chance of making an innocent, unintentional mistake. i.e. because the children liked the teddy bear very much and they also liked the (best) name of Muhammad. So the teacher let them name the teddy bear Muhammad. What can we say ! Let the teacher speak for herself.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 7:20am

Well a bot iff the subject...

Well, if she did allow the bear to be name Mohammed, she is not very bright! Clearly did not know where she was and the background of her students.

Its like when I went to Turkey, I read up o th country. It is against the law to insult Ataturk. Well I  had no plans to do it but it is good to know. Accordingly, it is against the law to insult religion. You should respect the culture. And if you are not sure, ask!!

Chelle, in other places, cultures and societies, they have different outlooks on life. They have different norms. In the US, we think there is "free speech" and to an extent that is true. But for instance, it is against the law to make fun of security measures at airports. You don't have complete "free" speech.  Every place in the world has certain things they value or prioritize.  it is just different.  

 

 



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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 8:01am
I understand that, but if these were Muslim parents complaining, it must have been Muslim children who selected the name.  If it's offensive, shouldn't they have known not to do it? 


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Chelle Chelle wrote:

I understand that, but if these were Muslim parents complaining, it must have been Muslim children who selected the name.  If it's offensive, shouldn't they have known not to do it? 


Salaams Chelle,

The parents in Muslim countries respect teachers a lot more than here.  And they expect the teachers to use their own judgment when making decisions.  They most likely consider that their children were manipulated by a Kaffir.

Did she know or not?  Only she can tell us what was in her heart.  Only Allah, The All-Knowing truly knows.

I'm not so sure they would have been equally offended if it was named "Eesa".

In a future project, teachers need to take into consideration cultural norms, as Sister Hayfa has suggested, and then have a list for the kids to vote on.

Cultural relativity is a hard thing to understand, but well worth the effort!


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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 6:20pm

Hi Chelle,

You have got many good responses. I need not say much, actually there's nothing much left.

Let me revive the same, but in a different way.

Prophet Muhammad  holds a a very special place in our hearts. There's a verse in the Holy Quran, which says ," The Prophet is closer to the believers than themselves"

And a hadith
"By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, none of you truly believes until I am dearer to him than his own self, his wealth, his children and all the people."

There are three qualities for  which whoever has it tastes sweetness of  faith and one amongst these three qualities  is , Allah and His Messenger are dearer to him than anyone else.

What i intend u to explain thru these ,above hadith and verse is that Prophet , peace be upon him. always holds a very dear position in our hearts. Its one of the signs of a believer. We do respect him very much. For, he is the chosen person - messenger of Allah. He faced many hardships for the spread of peace. He is our Ideal . How can we tolerate any insults . Be it in any form. Will u tolerate Chelle, a person whom u respect and love, is insulted.

I don't think so that there's any person left who does n't know oF Mohammad {PBUH}. He might atleast know that Mohammad {Peace be upon him}, is someone sacred in Islam. So i feel that the insult was intentional.  If children were wrong, it was the teacher to correct  them , instead of agreeing.

There are many such incidents happening, wherein our feelings get hurted. But alhamdullilah, we are facing them with peaceful protests.

But again, if the teacher agrees her mistake then its okay, Did she apologise ?



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 11:39pm

While i agree that you should learn about a country & people that you're going to.......

The teddy bear was named after a student not the prophet. As i said earlier many people have the name Muhammed, spelt in varies ways.

Student defends teacher jailed in Sudan

November 28, 2007 - 2:33PM

A 7-year-old Sudanese student today defended his British teacher accused of insulting Islam saying he had chosen to call a teddy bear Mohammad after his own name.

Gillian Gibbons, a 54-year-old teacher at the Unity High School in Khartoum, was arrested on Sunday after complaints from parents that she had insulted the Prophet Mohammad and is facing a third night in jail without being charged.

"The teacher asked me what I wanted to call the teddy," the boy said shyly, his voice barely rising above a whisper. "I said Mohammad. I named it after my name," he added.

Sitting in his garden wearing shorts, his family, who did not want their full names used, urged him to describe what had happened.

He said he was not thinking of Islam's Prophet when asked to suggest a name, adding most of the class agreed with his choice.

In a writing exercise students were asked to keep a diary of what they did with the teddy bear. "Some people took the teddy home and took it places with them ... like the swimming pool," the child said.

Mohammad said Gibbons was "very nice" and he would be upset if she never came back to teach. He added Gibbons had not discussed religion nor did she mention the Prophet.

"We studied maths and English and spelling," he said, rubbing his mop of short, curly hair.

Abdel Rahim Ahmed Abdel Rahim from the Sudan police force's Criminal Investigation Directorate said today a decision whether to charge Gibbons with insulting Islam would be made once investigations were completed.

"She is being questioned. Then the whole matter is going to be evaluated to see whether she is going to be charged or not," he said.

If convicted of insulting Islam, Gibbons could be sentenced to 40 lashes, six months in prison or a fine, lawyers said.

Teaching colleagues and officials from the British embassy brought food for Gibbons but were not allowed to visit her.

Mohammad's family said they got most of their information from the papers after the school was closed early yesterday.

"I'm annoyed ... that this has escalated in this way," his mother said. "If it happened as Mohammad said there is no problem here - it was not intended."

His uncle said little Mohammad was a good Muslim and was already praying five times a day. "We want to also hear her side of the story," he added. Both declined to reveal their full names.

Unity director Robert Boulos had said the school would be closed until January because he was afraid of reprisals in mainly Muslim Khartoum.

In 2005 a Sudanese paper was closed for three months and its editor arrested for reprinting articles questioning the roots of the Prophet Mohammad, a move which prompted angry protests.

Al-Wifaq editor Mohamed Taha was later abducted from his home by armed men and beheaded.

Sudan's justice minister declined to immediately comment.

A spokesman from the Sudanese embassy in London later said Gibbons would probably be cleared and released soon.

"The police is (sic) bound to investigate," embassy spokesman Khalid al-Mubarak told BBC radio.

"I am pretty certain that this minute incident will be clarified very quickly and this teacher who has been helping us with the teaching of children will be safe and will be cleared."

Asked about the potential punishments he said: "My impression is that the whole thing could probably be settled amicably long before we reach stages like these ... Our relationship with Britain is so good that we wouldn't like such a minute event to be overblown."

Reuters

This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/11/28/1196036959913.h tml



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 28 November 2007 at 1:48am

in the west nothing apart from money is sacred and important enough to be defended.

in other countries religion and ideology is sacred and very important and is defended.

which is best 



Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 28 November 2007 at 2:03am
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

While i agree that you should learn about a country & people that you're going to.......

The teddy bear was named after a student not the prophet. As i said earlier many people have the name Muhammed, spelt in varies ways.

Student defends teacher jailed in Sudan

November 28, 2007 - 2:33PM

A 7-year-old Sudanese student today defended his British teacher accused of insulting Islam saying he had chosen to call a teddy bear Mohammad after his own name.

Gillian Gibbons, a 54-year-old teacher at the Unity High School in Khartoum, was arrested on Sunday after complaints from parents that she had insulted the Prophet Mohammad and is facing a third night in jail without being charged.

"The teacher asked me what I wanted to call the teddy," the boy said shyly, his voice barely rising above a whisper. "I said Mohammad. I named it after my name," he added.

Sitting in his garden wearing shorts, his family, who did not want their full names used, urged him to describe what had happened.

He said he was not thinking of Islam's Prophet when asked to suggest a name, adding most of the class agreed with his choice.

In a writing exercise students were asked to keep a diary of what they did with the teddy bear. "Some people took the teddy home and took it places with them ... like the swimming pool," the child said.

Mohammad said Gibbons was "very nice" and he would be upset if she never came back to teach. He added Gibbons had not discussed religion nor did she mention the Prophet.

"We studied maths and English and spelling," he said, rubbing his mop of short, curly hair.

Abdel Rahim Ahmed Abdel Rahim from the Sudan police force's Criminal Investigation Directorate said today a decision whether to charge Gibbons with insulting Islam would be made once investigations were completed.

"She is being questioned. Then the whole matter is going to be evaluated to see whether she is going to be charged or not," he said.

If convicted of insulting Islam, Gibbons could be sentenced to 40 lashes, six months in prison or a fine, lawyers said.

Teaching colleagues and officials from the British embassy brought food for Gibbons but were not allowed to visit her.

Mohammad's family said they got most of their information from the papers after the school was closed early yesterday.

"I'm annoyed ... that this has escalated in this way," his mother said. "If it happened as Mohammad said there is no problem here - it was not intended."

His uncle said little Mohammad was a good Muslim and was already praying five times a day. "We want to also hear her side of the story," he added. Both declined to reveal their full names.

Unity director Robert Boulos had said the school would be closed until January because he was afraid of reprisals in mainly Muslim Khartoum.

In 2005 a Sudanese paper was closed for three months and its editor arrested for reprinting articles questioning the roots of the Prophet Mohammad, a move which prompted angry protests.

Al-Wifaq editor Mohamed Taha was later abducted from his home by armed men and beheaded.

Sudan's justice minister declined to immediately comment.

A spokesman from the Sudanese embassy in London later said Gibbons would probably be cleared and released soon.

"The police is (sic) bound to investigate," embassy spokesman Khalid al-Mubarak told BBC radio.

"I am pretty certain that this minute incident will be clarified very quickly and this teacher who has been helping us with the teaching of children will be safe and will be cleared."

Asked about the potential punishments he said: "My impression is that the whole thing could probably be settled amicably long before we reach stages like these ... Our relationship with Britain is so good that we wouldn't like such a minute event to be overblown."

Reuters

This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/11/28/1196036959913.h tml

Salaams,

Even the possibility of 40 lashes is wildly unreasonable.  She should never have been jailed, but possibly suspended until this could be investigated.  Why so harsh?  And since she is in jail, she definitely should be allowed visitors.  If it were reasonably proven by the preponderance of the evidence that she intended insult, which at this moment nothing points to, then she should just be fired and possibly fined and sent home.

As a new Muslim years ago, I could have made a similar mistake, most of us could have.  Come on!  We need to be realistic.  I probably wouldn't have because of the idea that I grew up somehow knowing that we wouldn't name a toy "Jesus".  Native English American speakers don't often name their children "Jesus" unless they are Muslims.



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 28 November 2007 at 2:10pm
Sudan has no priorities they should stop civil war in there own country before they make a big deal over something petty and unintentional, they are thick


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 28 November 2007 at 6:33pm

The teacher is being charged with insulting islam and spreading hatred.

 

Teddy-bear teacher charged with insulting religion

Thursday Nov 29 05:59 AEDT

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/img/2007/world/2911_gibbons_lg_a.jpg">

Britain is to summon Sudan's ambassador for urgent talks after a British teacher was charged with insulting religion in Khartoum, a spokesman said, voicing disappointment at the move.

As the case escalated into a full-blown diplomatic incident, a spokesman said Foreign Secretary David Miliband wants an explanation for the decision to charge Gillian Gibbons over letting pupils name a teddy bear "Mohammed".

"We are surprised and disappointed by this development and the Foreign Secretary will summon as a matter of urgency the Sudanese ambassador to discuss the matter further," said a spokesman for Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

The purpose of the meeting was "so we can get a clear explanation for the rationale behind the charges and a sense of what the next steps might be," he said. "We will consider our response in the light of that," he added.

A Foreign Office spokesman said the ambassador is likely to be called in by the minister on Thursday.

Gibbons, 54, has been in custody for three days after being arrested in Khartoum because parents complained that in allowing pupils at an expensive English school to name the bear Mohammed she was insulting the Muslim Prophet.

The Foreign Office confirmed that she had been charged with "insulting religion and inciting hatred."

If found guilty under the article � publicly insulting or degrading any religion, its rites, beliefs and sacred items or humiliating its believers � she would face up to six months in jail, 40 lashes and a fine.

Prime Minister Brown said on Tuesday that British authorities were in touch with Sudanese police to "ascertain that (Gibbons) is safe and well and to clarify the position so that she can be released soon".

For devout Muslims, any physical depiction of Mohammed is blasphemous and strictly forbidden.

There has been some speculation that the mother-of-two, who had only been in Sudan since leaving England in July, could also be charged with sedition, a far more serious charge than insulting Muslims.

Meanwhile Sudan's embassy in London said the affair could still be resolved amicably � but underlined the cultural differences behind the decision to charge Gibbons.

"We still say that it can be resolved in an amicable way through a fair hearing and fear investigation and fair legal system," embassy spokesman Khalid al Mubarak told the BBC.

The head of the Muslim Council of Britain said he was "appalled" at the decision to charge Gibbons.

"This is a disgraceful decision and defies common sense," said Muhammad Abdul Bari. "There was clearly no intention on the part of the teacher to deliberately insult the Islamic faith.

"We call upon the Sudanese President Umar al-Bashir to intervene in this case without delay to ensure that Ms Gibbons is freed from this quite shameful ordeal," he added.

The Sudanese embassy spokesman declined to comment on the indictment. "It's not for me to say if it's sensible or not. This is now in front of the law and I should not interfere in the case or try to influence it in any way," he said.

"But a teddy bear in your culture is different from a teddy bear in our culture," he said.

"In our culture a teddy bear is a wild and dangerous animal. It's not something to be cuddled by children before they sleep. This is important to remember," he said.

 
 
As much as I feel for the teacher, i feel sorry for the kids to who are also pretty much at the centre of this. This is not just about the adults its the kids too. What does this teach them?!


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 28 November 2007 at 7:55pm

"But a teddy bear in your culture is different from a teddy bear in our culture," he said.

"In our culture a teddy bear is a wild and dangerous animal. It's not something to be cuddled by children before they sleep. This is important to remember," he said.

THis is a really good point.  It's not like the children were giving the name of Muhammad to a wild, vicious killer bear.  They were giving the name of Muhammad to a creature which comforts them and makes them feel safe.  How is that bad or disrespectful?



Posted By: Daniel Dworsky
Date Posted: 28 November 2007 at 8:51pm
This woman acted thoughtlessly and the Sudanese answered her ignorance
with out wisdom or discretion. I should think thier first concern would be
for the seven year old Muhamad


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 29 November 2007 at 8:46pm

'Teddy' teacher jailed for 15 days in Sudan

Friday Nov 30 05:34 AEDT

A British teacher accused of insulting Muslims after her class called a teddy bear Mohammad was found guilty and jailed for 15 days, a defence lawyer said.

Gillian Gibbons, 54, was ordered to be deported after she had completed her sentence.

"She was found guilty of insulting religion and the sentence is 15 days (in jail) and deportation," defence lawyer Ali Ajib said after the trial in a Khartoum courtroom, which lasted less than a day.

Robert Boulos, head of Unity high school where Gibbons worked, said: "We are happy with the verdict. It is fair. There were a lot of political pressures and attention."

He added: "We will be very sad to lose her."

When asked what he thought of the verdict, the head of Gibbons's defence teams, Kamal al-Jazouli, said: "It was not bad."

Gibbons was on Wednesday charged with insulting Islam, inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs because of the toy's name. Under Sudan's penal code, she could have faced 40 lashes, a fine, or up to one year in jail.

In court, judge Mohammed Youssef listened to two accounts � one from school secretary Sarah Khawad, who filed the first complaint about the teddy bear's name, and one from the official who has been investigating the case, court sources said.

Teachers at the school say that calling the teddy bear Mohammad, the name of the prophet of Islam, was not her idea in the first place and that no parents objected when Unity High School sent parents circulars about a reading project which included the teddy bear as a fictional participant.

In London, British Foreign Secretary David Miliband had earlier told the Sudanese ambassador he was concerned about Gibbons.

"We believe that this was an innocent misunderstanding," Miliband said in a statement.

Sudan has had poor relations with Britain, the United States and most European countries for several years, mainly because of their disagreements over how to handle the conflict in the Darfur region in western Sudan.

The U.N. Security Council, of which Britain is a permanent member, wants to deploy a joint U.N.-African force to Darfur to restore order and help displaced people return home. Khartoum reluctantly agreed but is disputing many details.

Several British Muslim groups said they supported Gibbons.

"This (charging Gibbons) is a disgraceful decision and defies common sense. There was clearly no intention on the part of the teacher to deliberately insult the Islamic faith," said Muhammad Abdul Bari, Secretary-General of the MCB, Britain's largest Muslim organisation.

 
------------------------------------------------------------ --

 

"I'm utterly disappointed with this decision. We have been calling on the Sudanese authorities to show leniency, that this was a case of an innocent oversight, a misunderstanding, and there was no need for this to ... be escalated," said Ibrahim Mogra of the Muslim Council of Britain, the country's largest Muslim organisation.

"We are very hopeful that perhaps the appeals process will be more successful."

"The question that I would want the judiciary there and the authorities to ponder over is: How does this help the cause of Islam? What kind of message and image are we portraying about our religion and our culture?"

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/sudanese-court-jails-teddy-teacher/2007/11/30/1196037107078.html - http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/sudanese-court-jails-ted dy-teacher/2007/11/30/1196037107078.html



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 30 November 2007 at 6:47am
Calls in Sudan for execution of Briton

By MOHAMED OSMAN, Associated Press Writer 21 minutes ago

KHARTOUM, Sudan - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."

The protesters streamed out of mosques after Friday sermons, as pickup trucks with loudspeakers blared messages against Gillian Gibbons, the teacher who was sentenced Thursday to 15 days in prison and deportation. She avoided the more serious punishment of 40 lashes.

They massed in central Martyrs Square outside the presidential palace, where hundreds of riot police were deployed. They did not try to stop the rally, which lasted about an hour.

"Shame, shame on the U.K.," protesters chanted.

They called for Gibbons' execution, saying, "No tolerance: Execution," and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad."

The women's prison where Gibbons is being held is far from the square.

Several hundred protesters, not openly carrying weapons, marched about a mile away to Unity High School, where Gibbons worked. They chanted slogans outside the school, which is closed and under heavy security, then marched toward the nearby British Embassy. They were stopped by security forces two blocks away from the embassy.

The protest arose despite vows by Sudanese security officials the day before, during Gibbons' trial, that threatened demonstrations after Friday prayers would not take place. Some of the protesters carried green banners with the name of the Society for Support of the Prophet Muhammad, a previously unknown group.

Many protesters carried clubs, knives and axes � but not automatic weapons, which some have brandished at past government-condoned demonstrations. That suggested Friday's rally was not organized by the government.

A Muslim cleric at Khartoum's main Martyrs Mosque denounced Gibbons during one sermon, saying she intentionally insulted Islam. He did not call for protests, however.

"Imprisoning this lady does not satisfy the thirst of Muslims in Sudan. But we welcome imprisonment and expulsion," the cleric, Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karouri, a well-known hard-liner, told worshippers.

"This an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad," he said.

Britain, meanwhile, pursued diplomatic moves to free Gibbons. Prime Minister Gordon Brown spoke with a member of her family to convey his regret, his spokeswoman said.

"He set out his concern and the fact that we were doing all we could to secure her release," spokeswoman Emily Hands told reporters.

Most Britons expressed shock at the verdict by a court in Khartoum, alongside hope it would not raise tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims in Britain.

"One of the good things is the U.K. Muslims who've condemned the charge as completely out of proportion," said Paul Wishart, 37, a student in London.

"In the past, people have been a bit upset when different atrocities have happened and there hasn't been much voice in the U.K. Islamic population, whereas with this, they've quickly condemned it."

Muhammad Abdul Bari, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, accused the Sudanese authorities of "gross overreaction."

"This case should have required only simple common sense to resolve. It is unfortunate that the Sudanese authorities were found wanting in this most basic of qualities," he said.

The Muslim Public Affairs Committee, a political advocacy group, said the prosecution was "abominable and defies common sense."

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, spiritual leader of the world's 77 million Anglicans, said Gibbons' prosecution and conviction was "an absurdly disproportionate response to what is at worst a cultural faux pas."

Foreign Secretary David Miliband summoned the Sudanese ambassador late Thursday to express Britain's disappointment with the verdict. The Foreign Office said Britain would continue diplomatic efforts to achieve "a swift resolution" to the crisis.

Gibbons was arrested Sunday after another staff member at the school complained that she had allowed her 7-year-old students to name a teddy bear Muhammad. Giving the name of the Muslim prophet to an animal or a toy could be considered insulting.

The case put Sudan's government in an embarrassing position � facing the anger of Britain on one side and potential trouble from powerful Islamic hard-liners on the other. Many saw the 15-day sentence as an attempt to appease both sides.

In The Times, columnist Bronwen Maddox said the verdict was "something of a fudge ... designed to give a nod to British reproof but also to appease the street."

Britain's response � applying diplomatic pressure while extolling ties with Sudan and affirming respect for Islam � had produced mixed results, British commentators concluded.

In an editorial, The Daily Telegraph said Miliband "has tiptoed around the case, avoiding a threat to cut aid and asserting that respect for Islam runs deep in Britain. Given that much of the government's financial support goes to the wretched refugees in Darfur and neighboring Chad, Mr. Miliband's caution is understandable."

Now, however, the newspaper said, Britain should recall its ambassador in Khartoum and impose sanctions on the Sudanese regime.

___



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 30 November 2007 at 8:42am

This situation has got completely out of hand.

She did not mean to offend.

She will complete her punishment, then return to the UK

The thousands that are now marching in the streets are not justified, but they are ignorant of the important teachings of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuH).( I expect many in the crowd have done far worse things than she, yet hide behind their sin in this life.)

He would forgive her (pbuH)

As does Allah, if there was any malice in her heart.

She is paying the price. And she will be affected all life by a silly error that got out of hand.



Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 30 November 2007 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

This situation has got completely out of hand.

She did not mean to offend.

She will complete her punishment, then return to the UK

The thousands that are now marching in the streets are not justified, but they are ignorant of the important teachings of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuH).( I expect many in the crowd have done far worse things than she, yet hide behind their sin in this life.)

He would forgive her (pbuH)

As does Allah, if there was any malice in her heart.

She is paying the price. And she will be affected all life by a silly error that got out of hand.

It is a shame that we Muslims do not get fired up about the real problems facing the lack of Islamic Civilization. These Muslims are ready to kill and die and show their love for trivial matters that are easy to respond to, but the matters that require self discipline and self reliance and awareness are ignored. This attitude of, "yea...we sure showed them" is something new amongst Muslims. It is reactionary garbage. Useless for social change or even  social justice. "Yea...we sure showed them"..... Yea you sure did, you have shown the world just how ignorant you are. How sad. We Muslims are the closet thing to the Quran most westerners will ever come. And much of their chances of getting closer to the Quran can greatly be influenced by our manners, behavior, and actions. Don't preach Quran, read and live Quran. Thats what the first three generations did, and that is one major reason why so many converted to the faith.

You made nice points Sister.

 



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 01 December 2007 at 10:39am

Andalus said:

It is a shame that we Muslims do not get fired up about the real problems facing the lack of Islamic Civilization. These Muslims are ready to kill and die and show their love for trivial matters that are easy to respond to, but the matters that require self discipline and self reliance and awareness are ignored. This attitude of, "yea...we sure showed them" is something new amongst Muslims. It is reactionary garbage. Useless for social change or even  social justice. "Yea...we sure showed them"..... Yea you sure did, you have shown the world just how ignorant you are. How sad. We Muslims are the closet thing to the Quran most westerners will ever come. And much of their chances of getting closer to the Quran can greatly be influenced by our manners, behavior, and actions. Don't preach Quran, read and live Quran. Thats what the first three generations did, and that is one major reason why so many converted to the faith.

A very good point here indeed, one I wholeheartedly agree with.

The problem in most Muslim countries (according to my own experiences) is that Islam is mostly cultural and not necessarily religious. Herjihad mentioned a while back in an earlier post about cultural relativity, that is the issue! t is to my understanding that Muslims in these countries know their religion well enough to practice but not to understand. It is not a paradoxical thing here when, one can just mimick their forefathers beliefs and practices without understanding, so, with this in mind whe local religious authoritis exclaim to the masses that Muhammad is the greatest thing in the world and one worth dying for, anything that resembles opposition to that thought incites anger in the public masses. It's sad to say, but quite true that Muslims in third world countries are in fact ignorant.

It is not to belittle them but we must understand that education is not a big factor in third world countries. If critical reasoning is not taught in these countries how can we expect the masses to act "logical?" So when we see gun toting masses call for the execution of a teacher all because she named a bear after a student named Muhammad (not to mention she does not look like the natives of that region which one may hypothesize why they are more inclined to call for her execution) we have to wonder the educational (and religious) background of the masses.

Let me retrack from an earlier comment. It is not just a cultural issue but an educational one at that.



Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 01 December 2007 at 11:00am
And how are they supposed to get more educated if they tend to want to execute the teachers for simple mistakes? 


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 01 December 2007 at 11:39am

Originally posted by Chelle Chelle wrote:

And how are they supposed to get more educated if they tend to want to execute the teachers for simple mistakes? 

That is exactly the problem.

Little money is spent on education and more on weaponry and other unknown variables. My post was pointing out that education is one of the factors why people react ignorantly, but that is not to say that 'intelligent' individuals act intelligently, it is to show that educated individuals most likely would not react in the manner of these people have acted.



Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 03 December 2007 at 8:08am

More breaking news:

Quote Sudan change of mind....
Less than a week after sentencing a British teacher to 15 days imprisonment, the panel of Sudanese clerics who ruled that by allowing her class to name a teddy bear Mohammad, she had insulted religion... have reviewed their original conclusion and now realise that it is they who are the guilty party...

Read the full story here: http://babylon-blog.blogspot.com/ - http://babylon-blog.blogspot.com/

BTW. A big hello to all my Muslim and Non-Muslim friends at Islamicity.
It's good to be back.  



Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 03 December 2007 at 8:20am
Too bad that's a satirical site.  Loved the George Bush quote though.  LOL.  Thankfully, the woman has been pardoned and sent back home.


Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 03 December 2007 at 8:52am

Hi Chelle,

Don't you like satire? If you read what I have said about the clerics in Sudan, I'm sure you will realise that my article isn't intended to insult Islam. Indeed, as I member of this forum for over six years, I have big respect for Islam and Muslims in general.....However, I also have much contempt for those who use Islam for their own selfish, narrow-minded (often politically motivated) aims.

If you do a search for my older posts, you will find that I have been fairly consistent in my views over the years.

Regards, Colin

PS. I'm glad you enjoyed the dig at Pres Bush.  :----)

PPS. I am also pleased that the teacher is out of prison.



Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 03 December 2007 at 9:22am
No, I do enjoy satire, I just meant it's too bad the story wasn't true. 


Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 03 December 2007 at 9:28am

Originally posted by Chelle Chelle wrote:

No, I do enjoy satire, I just meant it's too bad the story wasn't true. 

DOH!!! 



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 03 December 2007 at 10:28am

Assalamu Alaikum,

It is great news that the woman has been pardoned.

Muslims must play a greater role to guide humanity by performing morally superior actions and following great examples of the Prophet Muhammad ( SAW ) and his companions.

Welcome back, Colin.

Jazak Allah Khair and thanks everyone for good posts and replies.

May Allah guide us all.

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 04 December 2007 at 7:48am

British teacher arrives home from Sudan

By ROBERT BARR, Associated Press Writer2 hours, 13 minutes ago

A British teacher jailed in Sudan for letting her students name a teddy bear Muhammad as part of a writing project arrived home Tuesday after being pardoned and said she was "very upset to think that I might have caused offense to people."

Gillian Gibbons told reporters after arriving at London's Heathrow Airport that she was looking forward to seeing her family and friends.

"I'm just an ordinary middle-aged primary school teacher. I went out there to have an adventure, and got a bit more than I bargained for," Gibbons said at a brief news conference.

"I don't think anyone could have imagined it would snowball like this," she added.

Gibbons, 54, jailed for more than a week, was freed after two Muslim members of Britain's House of Lords met with Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir and the teacher sent the president a statement saying she didn't mean to offend anyone with her class project.

"It has been an ordeal but I'd like want you to know that I was well-treated in prison and everybody was very kind to me," she said. "I was very sorry to leave Sudan. I had a fabulous time there. It's a really lovely place, and I managed to see some of the beautiful countryside while I was there."

Gibbons said she didn't want her experience "to put anyone off going to Sudan � in fact I know of a lovely school that needs a new Year Two teacher."

The incident was the latest in a tense relationship between the West and Sudan's president, an Islamic hard-liner who has been accused by the United Nations of dragging his feet on the deployment of peacekeepers to the country's war-torn Darfur region.

Al-Bashir insisted Gibbons had a fair trial, in which she was convicted of insulting Islam's Prophet Muhammad, but the president agreed to pardon her during the meeting with the British delegation, said Ghazi Saladdin, a senior presidential adviser.

Gibbons left Sudan Monday night, flying via Dubai to London.

"I'd like to thank the government for all they have done, the hard work behind the scenes, especially the two peers who went out there," said her 25-year-old son, John. "Everyone's been really great."

When asked her feelings about the offense she was accused of, Gibbons said: "I don't think I really know enough about it to comment really. It's a very difficult area and a very delicate area."

"I was very upset to think that I might have caused offense to people," she added.

Gibbons said she learned of the intense media coverage of the story on her second day in prison.

Asked if she was terrified of prison, she said: "That's an understatement."

"I was treated the same as any other Sudanese prisoner in that you were given the bare minimum," she said. "Then I was moved to another prison and there the Ministry of the Interior sent me a bed which is possibly the best present I've ever had."

What Britain and Gibbons' supporters said was a misunderstanding over the teddy bear escalated into a diplomatic flap between London and Khartoum � and the show of outrage in Sudan that puzzled many in the West.

Hard-line Muslim clerics in Sudan denounced Gibbons, saying she intentionally aimed to insult Islam. A day after her Thursday trial, several thousand Sudanese massed in central Khartoum to demand that Gibbons be executed. Many of the demonstrators carried swords and clubs.

But it was never clear how deep anger over the incident really flowed among Sudanese, although the affair was influenced by the ideology that al-Bashir's Islamic regime has long instilled � a mix of anti-colonialism, religious fundamentalism and a sense that the West is besieging Islam.

"Common sense has prevailed," British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said in a statement expressing delight over Gibbons' release.

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband praised Gibbons, saying that "she's shown very good British grit in very difficult circumstances."

Gibbons, who was arrested Nov. 25, was sentenced to 15 days in prison and deportation under Sudan's Islamic Sharia law for having the teddy bear project for her class of 7-year-olds at the private Unity High School. She could have been punished with up to 40 lashes, six months in prison and a fine.

In the project, she had a student bring in a teddy bear, then asked her pupils to vote on a name for it. They chose Muhammad, a common name among Muslim men. The students took the bear home individually to write diary entries on it, which were then compiled into a book with the bear's picture on it and the title "My Name is Muhammad," school officials said.

Gibbons' defenders said the project was a common one in British schools.

The trial was sparked when a school secretary complained to the Education Ministry that Gibbons aimed to insult Islam's prophet.

The private English-language school, with elementary to high school levels, was founded by Christian groups, but 90 percent of its students are Muslim, mostly from upper-class Sudanese families.

Lord Nazir Ahmed, part of the British delegation that met with al-Bashir, said the case was an "unfortunate misunderstanding" and stressed that Britain respected Islam. He added that he hoped "the relations between our two countries will not be damaged by this incident."

Many Muslim groups in the West had sharply criticized Gibbons' arrest. On Monday, Inayat Bunglawala, a spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, welcomed her pardon.

"Gillian should never have been arrested in the first place, let alone held in jail. She had done nothing wrong," he said. "It will be wonderful to see her back in the U.K. I am sure she will be welcomed by both Muslims and non-Muslims after her quite terrible ordeal at the hands of the Sudanese authorities."

Muslim scholars generally agree that intent is a key factor in determining if someone has violated Islamic rules against insulting the prophet.

But hard-liners in Sudan touted the incident as part of a Western plot to undermine Islam, echoing accusations from controversy raised early in the year by the publication of cartoon caricatures of the prophet in European newspapers.

Al-Bashir's opponents in Sudan have said his government likely let the Gibbons case move forward to stir up anti-Western anger at a time when he is resisting allowing Western peacekeepers in the Darfur peacekeeping force. He has said he will bar any Scandinavians from the force since newspapers in their countries ran the prophet cartoons.

___

Associated Press Writer Alfred de Montesquiou in Khartoum, Sudan contributed to this report.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071204/ap_on_re_eu/sudan_british_teacher - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071204/ap_on_re_eu/sudan_britis h_teacher



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 04 December 2007 at 7:58am

Gibbons said she didn't want her experience "to put anyone off going to Sudan � in fact I know of a lovely school that needs a new Year Two teacher."

LOL!  Good to see she still has her sense of humor. 



Posted By: Walid
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 4:16am

When they offend muslims in their homeland it is honest mistake. When muslim does honest mistake in west it is crime accessories



Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Walid Walid wrote:

When they offend muslims in their homeland it is honest mistake. When muslim does honest mistake in west it is crime accessories

Well said brother, It may run into many pages when we discuss this sentence with few of our members here, but again its going to be off-topic. .

There is a couplet in urdu,

 



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by Walid Walid wrote:

When they offend muslims in their homeland it is honest mistake. When muslim does honest mistake in west it is crime accessories

This is rubbish. I don't think trying to blow buildings up is an "honest mistake." You don't believe that, extremism is alive in our religion and people using ignorance to deface Islam, by promoting violent behavior? 



Posted By: Tom123
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 5:40pm
   What I find to be surprising and a bit sickening is that while this government arrested a woman and there was a big deal about whether naming a teddy bear Muhammad was a crime or not, they are at the same time committing genocide and war crimes in Darfur and the Sudanese governments' members have led a war in Southern Sudan where starvation, enslavement and mass murder were used as weapons to murder over 2 million people.

   Isn't it a bit hypocritical of the mass murderers in Khartoum to be debating over whether a woman who called a teddy bear Muhammad is a criminal yet they themselves are responsible for some of the most horrific recent crimes against humanity? Shouldn't Muslims be also considering whether Khartoum's actions are not offensive to Islam's teachings?

   Cristo Vive!
       - Tomasz


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 7:09pm

Originally posted by Tom123 Tom123 wrote:

   What I find to be surprising and a bit sickening is that while this government arrested a woman and there was a big deal about whether naming a teddy bear Muhammad was a crime or not, they are at the same time committing genocide and war crimes in Darfur and the Sudanese governments' members have led a war in Southern Sudan where starvation, enslavement and mass murder were used as weapons to murder over 2 million people.

   Isn't it a bit hypocritical of the mass murderers in Khartoum to be debating over whether a woman who called a teddy bear Muhammad is a criminal yet they themselves are responsible for some of the most horrific recent crimes against humanity? Shouldn't Muslims be also considering whether Khartoum's actions are not offensive to Islam's teachings?

   Cristo Vive!
       - Tomasz

I 100% agree. A large portion of the Muslim and Non-Muslim world is hypotcritical. This is what I battle over Whisper about.



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Originally posted by Tom123 Tom123 wrote:

   What I find to be surprising and a bit sickening is that while this government arrested a woman and there was a big deal about whether naming a teddy bear Muhammad was a crime or not, they are at the same time committing genocide and war crimes in Darfur and the Sudanese governments' members have led a war in Southern Sudan where starvation, enslavement and mass murder were used as weapons to murder over 2 million people.

   Isn't it a bit hypocritical of the mass murderers in Khartoum to be debating over whether a woman who called a teddy bear Muhammad is a criminal yet they themselves are responsible for some of the most horrific recent crimes against humanity? Shouldn't Muslims be also considering whether Khartoum's actions are not offensive to Islam's teachings?

   Cristo Vive!
       - Tomasz

I 100% agree.

can I join? Tom



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Tom123
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 7:13am
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Originally posted by Tom123 Tom123 wrote:

   What I find to be surprising and a bit sickening is that while this government arrested a woman and there was a big deal about whether naming a teddy bear Muhammad was a crime or not, they are at the same time committing genocide and war crimes in Darfur and the Sudanese governments' members have led a war in Southern Sudan where starvation, enslavement and mass murder were used as weapons to murder over 2 million people.

   Isn't it a bit hypocritical of the mass murderers in Khartoum to be debating over whether a woman who called a teddy bear Muhammad is a criminal yet they themselves are responsible for some of the most horrific recent crimes against humanity? Shouldn't Muslims be also considering whether Khartoum's actions are not offensive to Islam's teachings?

   Cristo Vive!
       - Tomasz

I 100% agree.

can I join? Tom


   Awww... thanks guys.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 12:54am

I would like to point out that it actually wasn't parents that complained and started all this... it was a secretary that got fired and decided to get back at the school.  She couldn't even convince parents to file the complaint, so she had to do it herself.

She almost got a woman public beaten (or if the mob had its way killed) to get revenge for being fired.

Sadly, once again, its not about the love of the Prophet, its not about protecting Islam, its about using other People's love of the Prophet and Islam to get what they want.



Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 2:35am

Originally posted by Chelle Chelle wrote:

There is a story in the news today about a British schoolteacher in Sudan who was arrested for letting her schoolchildren name their class teddy bear Muhammad.  .................... I don't want to offend anyone myself by asking about this, but I just don't understand.

Now as Angela has added some facts to the story and teacher has gone back where she belonged. What a white British teacher was doing in the god awful place like Sudan in the dark continent in the first.

Haven't these neo colonial masters got their fill of the trouble making?

Didn't you notice she was working at a Christian run school of colonial vintage. And such things aren't unheard off in these colonial era schools if you care to investigate the history of their missions.

What else could they  do to trivialize the personality of the Beloved Prophet in the minds of young children in seemingly harmless teddy bear naming exercise. As sister Haifa said  she wasn't too bright for being so ignorant of the consequences in case the mountain became of her molehill!

Are you a Muslim yourself?




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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 2:49am

Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:


The teddy bear was named after a student not the prophet. As i said earlier many people have the name Muhammed, spelt in varies ways.

Student defends teacher jailed in Sudan

November 28, 2007 - 2:33PM

A 7-year-old Sudanese student today defended his British teacher accused of insulting Islam saying he had chosen to call a teddy bear Mohammad after his own name.

Angel: You have copy n pasted quite a few news clips

Don't you think 54 year teacher should have more brains than this 7 years old student?

And in place like Sudan she has put this poor 7 years old on the hot seat!

Do you know how much trouble he has bargained for a dumb teacher? He might get tarred and feathered by other kids in the neighborhood while the  teacher is safely back home?




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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 3:44am
Originally posted by Tom123 Tom123 wrote:

Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Originally posted by Tom123 Tom123 wrote:

   What I find to be surprising and a bit sickening is that while this government arrested a woman and there was a big deal about whether naming a teddy bear Muhammad was a crime or not, they are at the same time committing genocide and war crimes in Darfur and the Sudanese governments' members have led a war in Southern Sudan where starvation, enslavement and mass murder were used as weapons to murder over 2 million people.

   Isn't it a bit hypocritical of the mass murderers in Khartoum to be debating over whether a woman who called a teddy bear Muhammad is a criminal yet they themselves are responsible for some of the most horrific recent crimes against humanity? Shouldn't Muslims be also considering whether Khartoum's actions are not offensive to Islam's teachings?

   Cristo Vive!
       - Tomasz

I 100% agree.

can I join? Tom


   Awww... thanks guys.

kind of surprized Tom and Israfil sharing the same banner and slogan!
May be Tom has not investigated or informed about the instigators of this Sudanese civil war!
The oil has destroyed lot of nations in the area so why should this be free of violence thanks to our capable cia.
I know first hand the beginning of this going back thirty plus years, the us supported rebels didn't realize that it will drag this long and Khartoum will not buckle no matter how many people get killed.
The black gold kills, religion or no religion!
Who ever cared for the African folks  getting killed anyways, remember Rwandan Tutsis!



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 7:17am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

Are you a Muslim yourself?

No, I am not.  I don't currently belong to any church.



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 12:50pm

Sign...

Mindful of the 'a' at the end of my name.  Angel and Angela are two different people.



Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Sign...

Mindful of the 'a' at the end of my name.  Angel and Angela are two different people.


Angela dear, ooops my typo, have dropped that "a" from the post. If you noticed the quote box does belong to Angel
Now if an "a" can cause consternation imagine the thread itself!
It is poignancy in serendipity, thanks so much!


-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 12:44pm
Spacebo bolshoii 


Posted By: Tom123
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

Originally posted by Tom123 Tom123 wrote:

Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Originally posted by Tom123 Tom123 wrote:

   What I find to be surprising and a bit sickening is that while this government arrested a woman and there was a big deal about whether naming a teddy bear Muhammad was a crime or not, they are at the same time committing genocide and war crimes in Darfur and the Sudanese governments' members have led a war in Southern Sudan where starvation, enslavement and mass murder were used as weapons to murder over 2 million people.

   Isn't it a bit hypocritical of the mass murderers in Khartoum to be debating over whether a woman who called a teddy bear Muhammad is a criminal yet they themselves are responsible for some of the most horrific recent crimes against humanity? Shouldn't Muslims be also considering whether Khartoum's actions are not offensive to Islam's teachings?

   Cristo Vive!
       - Tomasz

I 100% agree.

can I join? Tom


   Awww... thanks guys.

kind of surprized Tom and Israfil sharing the same banner and slogan!
May be Tom has not investigated or informed about the instigators of this Sudanese civil war!
The oil has destroyed lot of nations in the area so why should this be free of violence thanks to our capable cia.
I know first hand the beginning of this going back thirty plus years, the us supported rebels didn't realize that it will drag this long and Khartoum will not buckle no matter how many people get killed.
The black gold kills, religion or no religion!
Who ever cared for the African folks  getting killed anyways, remember Rwandan Tutsis!


  The war in Sudan started when Khartoum decided to occupy Southern Sudan. The rebels began fighting after their land was occupied by Arab armies and their land was being taken from them. Funny that you mention oil, that is the exact reason why Khartoum was ethnically cleansing the Southern Sudanese- to make way for drilling that would benefit the North.

   Khartoum is the instigator of the civil war in Sudan, as Putin is the instigator of the war in Chechnya and America is the instigator of the chaos in Iraq.

   Unfortunately few people care about the suffering of Africans- and this applies to Arabs as much as it applies to the West.

   Cristo Vive!
       - Tomasz


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 10 December 2007 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:


The teddy bear was named after a student not the prophet. As i said earlier many people have the name Muhammed, spelt in varies ways.

Student defends teacher jailed in Sudan

November 28, 2007 - 2:33PM

A 7-year-old Sudanese student today defended his British teacher accused of insulting Islam saying he had chosen to call a teddy bear Mohammad after his own name.

Angel: You have copy n pasted quite a few news clips

Don't you think 54 year teacher should have more brains than this 7 years old student?

And in place like Sudan she has put this poor 7 years old on the hot seat!

The parents of the child put him in the hot seat not the teacher. The parents urged the child to do the right thing and come forward.

Quote Do you know how much trouble he has bargained for a dumb teacher? He might get tarred and feathered by other kids in the neighborhood while the  teacher is safely back home?

The teacher is not dumb!

The principal knew about the activity and the parents knew about the activity and naming the teddy bear, notices where sent out to parents beforehand informing them of the activity if there was in objection it would have been then not after the fact.

The consenus is the naming had nothing to do with the prophet. I would think that the principal would have stepped in otherwise and mentioned something to the teacher.

Why is the teacher solely to blame for being ignorant, the principal didn't complain so why isn't she not being labelled as ignorant??

I read, and yet to confirm, that those who sent the teacher to jail realised they were in the wrong and themselves to jail.  



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 10 December 2007 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

I read, and yet to confirm, that those who sent the teacher to jail realised they were in the wrong and themselves to jail.  

Unfortunately, that was from a spoof site.  It wasn't really true.  They still think they were right.



Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 11 December 2007 at 3:48am
Originally posted by Chelle Chelle wrote:

Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

I read, and yet to confirm, that those who sent the teacher to jail realised they were in the wrong and themselves to jail.  

Unfortunately, that was from a spoof site.  It wasn't really true.  They still think they were right.

Yes Angel, don't believe everything you read on the net..."babylon" is distinctly satirical and heavily laced with surreal and often bone dry humo(u)r....but remember.....all the best humour has an element of truth.  :---)



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 December 2007 at 8:49am

Tom123,

Unfortunately few people care about the suffering of Africans- and this applies to Arabs as much as it applies to the West.

I've heard several theories on why this is so. I had the luxury of speaking with a Sudanese African who recently had received asylum from that region (I didn't dare to ask how) and informed me on how bad it is there. He told me the janjaweed took his wife, killed his children and let him to die in his burning house. He said since, he has tried to get Muslim scholars and other officials from around the world to get them on the ball with the issue. Unfortunately, he has a lot of unsuccess and some success. Unfortunately, Africa is seen as an expendable continent (funny how we think about this as this is the birthplace of humanity).

 



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 11 December 2007 at 5:17pm

 

Thanks chelle and colin

i'll end my confirming now. Anyway apart from that little bit I still stand by the rest of my post.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 11 December 2007 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by Tom123 Tom123 wrote:

The war in Sudan started when Khartoum decided to occupy Southern Sudan.

Why not, who allows the breakup of a country anyways?
You would think Lincoln should have let the Confederates break away with their black slaves

Originally posted by Tom123 Tom123 wrote:

The rebels began fighting after their land was occupied by Arab armies and their land was being taken from them.

 Funny that you mention oil, that is the exact reason why Khartoum was ethnically cleansing the Southern Sudanese- to make way for drilling that would benefit the North.
This getting away from the thread but as long as American and Canadian oil companies are there pumping oil this discussion is moot cuz the brown or black people who stand in the way of these oil companies are toast. How do you think these south Sudanese rebels will take this  oil to the market being landlocked?  


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 11 December 2007 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:


The teddy bear was named after a student not the prophet. As i said earlier many people have the name Muhammed, spelt in varies ways.

Student defends teacher jailed in Sudan

November 28, 2007 - 2:33PM

A 7-year-old Sudanese student today defended his British teacher accused of insulting Islam saying he had chosen to call a teddy bear Mohammad after his own name.

Angel: You have copy n pasted quite a few news clips

Don't you think 54 year teacher should have more brains than this 7 years old student?

And in place like Sudan she has put this poor 7 years old on the hot seat!

The parents of the child put him in the hot seat not the teacher. The parents urged the child to do the right thing and come forward.

Quote Do you know how much trouble he has bargained for a dumb teacher? He might get tarred and feathered by other kids in the neighborhood while the  teacher is safely back home?

The teacher is not dumb!

The principal knew about the activity and the parents knew about the activity and naming the teddy bear, notices where sent out to parents beforehand informing them of the activity if there was in objection it would have been then not after the fact.

The consenus is the naming had nothing to do with the prophet. I would think that the principal would have stepped in otherwise and mentioned something to the teacher.

Why is the teacher solely to blame for being ignorant, the principal didn't complain so why isn't she not being labelled as ignorant??

I read, and yet to confirm, that those who sent the teacher to jail realised they were in the wrong and themselves to jail.  


wow; seems like naming of the teddy bear was a project for whole neighborhood
the school should be renamed as School of International knuckleheads
I give credit to the liberality of the Khartoum's government that they have let this colonial era church school function after all the going on in that place!  


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 12 December 2007 at 12:33am

 

what's so funny about the neighborhood knowing what was going on in their school.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~



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