Print Page | Close Window

Rape victim gets 200 lashes

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Politics
Forum Name: Current Events
Forum Description: Current Events
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10735
Printed Date: 28 March 2024 at 7:48pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Rape victim gets 200 lashes
Posted By: Israfil
Subject: Rape victim gets 200 lashes
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 12:06am

Rape victim gets 200 lashes
15/11/2007 14:08  - (SA)  

Riyadh - A court in the ultra-conservative kingdom of Saudi Arabia is punishing a female victim of gang rape with 200 lashes and six months in jail, a newspaper reported on Thursday.

The 19-year-old woman - whose six armed attackers have been sentenced to jail terms - was initially ordered to undergo 90 lashes for "being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape", the Arab News reported.

But in a new verdict issued after Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council ordered a retrial, the court in the eastern town of Al-Qatif more than doubled the number of lashes to 200.

A court source told the English-language Arab News that the judges had decided to punish the woman further for "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media".

Saudi Arabia enforces a strict Islamic doctrine known as Wahhabism and forbids unrelated men and women from associating with each other, bans women from driving and forces them to cover head-to-toe in public.

Last year, the court sentenced six Saudi men to between one and five years in jail for the rape as well as ordering lashes for the victim, a member of the minority Shi'ite community.

But the woman's lawyer Abdul Rahman al-Lahem appealed, arguing that the punishments were too lenient in a country where the offence can carry the death penalty.

In the new verdict issued on Wednesday, the Al-Qatif court also toughened the sentences against the six men to between two and nine years in prison.

The case has angered members of Saudi Arabia's Shi'ite community. The convicted men are Sunni Muslims, the dominant community in the oil-rich Gulf state.

Lahem, also a human rights activist, told AFP on Wednesday that the court had banned him from handling the rape case and withdrew his licence to practise law because he challenged the verdict.

He said he has also been summoned by the ministry of justice to appear before a disciplinary committee in December.

Lahem said the move might be due to his criticism of some judicial institutions, and "contradicts King Abdullah's quest to introduce reform, especially in the justice system."

King Abdullah last month approved a new body of laws regulating the judicial system in Saudi Arabia, which rules on the basis of sharia, or Islamic law.

See Article: http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2221631,00.html - http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2221631 ,00.html

Opinion:

Although it is quite clear Saudi Arabia is not a model "Islamic country" it is important enough here that we must unanimously and openly, criticize the use of false "Islamization" of law. I want to know how many of my brethren will pour into the streets yelling and screaming injustice in the same manner as the United States military in Muslim countries repeatedly violate civil liberties? I would suspect not in the same manner. I would suspect my brethren would not react in the same way as the U.S. flag burning Muslims in the extremely conservative Muslim countries.

As long as some of our brethren get away with injustice we Muslims will be forever labeled in association with the illogical behavior of others no matter how much we reject it. What are we telling our women and the young girls about this behavior? That, so long as they are alone with men they are as guilty as the ones who violated them? this reeks of injustice and I for one [even if I'm the only Muslim] am totally against ever part of the Saudi government's decision to punish this 19-year old girl. Yes I understand that I'm quite bias here without knowing the entire facts but we all know that such practices are common in these countries, not just Saudi Arabia.

In much of the Muslim world with the exception of a few countries women are definitely not seen as equals and this article proves the point. Instead of seeing our women as beautiful equals,  the completion of the human, we imprison them and give them 200 lashes just for being the victim of a crime "they should have prevented." After reading this article I'm ashamed to even be associated with them as a Muslim this is pathetic.




Replies:
Posted By: Walid
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 4:15am

Israfil,

Hold on your horses and be proud to your Islam. Though I have no sympathy for this women you should know it was judges discretion to teach a lesson for this women. Having said that, those who gang raped her should be killed/hanged all in real Islamic setting. Their rules on gangs was pathetic and unislamic. I wonder where is other muslim scholars in this blessing land. These judges should be fired or face Islamic ta'zir by failing to deliver justice to terrorist gangs.

Alas, the whole thing is fiasco orchastrated by this filthy regime.  But the good thing is though western media have a feast on this, they will not shade the real Islam in real Islamic setting. Rubba Darratin Nafia

 

Walid



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 7:11am

Originally posted by Walid Walid wrote:

Alas, the whole thing is fiasco orchastrated by this filthy regime. 

Are you aware of, or have you read any official court transcript on this case? Surely, there is another side to this story, which is essential in order for us to have an informed opinion.  Likewise, a working knowledge of Islamic law would certainly be helpful.  I am sure that many of our Western court cases leave our Middle Eastern folk baffled and for much of the same reason, that is, not having full details along with a fundamental misunderstanding of the judicial system involved.  Filthy regime?  Wow, what a broad brushstroke.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 8:35am

Walid,

It certainly has not affected my belief in Islam, but it certain has affected my belief in the Islamic judicial system especially when humans are in control of it. In this situation yes, I acknowledge that there are two sides to every story however since they obviously are not revealing the case openly I can only judge based on what I read. Regardless whether I know much of the case or not, they are punishing someone who was raped in my humble opinion, regardless whether they are alone with a man or not, nobody should be punished if they are the victim of a crime. That to me is a backwards system. Yes there are a lot of flaws in the Western Judicial system, in comparison  how Islamic courts rule [mostly by  extremely religious men] women have a better chance at a fair trial in a western court of law than a conservative religiously extreme court of law.

Even if we had knowledge of Islamic law, that couldn't explain the decision because we don't know the entire case.

 



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 10:43am

There is already a thread on this event where discussion goes on:

 Saudi Girl sentenced in own rape



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 1:52pm

International Herald Reports: �Reports on the story triggered debate about the country's legal system, in which judges have wide discretion in punishing a criminal, rules of evidence are shaky and sometimes no defense lawyers is present. The result, critics say, are sentences left to the whim of judges. A rapist, for instance, could receive anywhere from a light or no sentence, to death.�

Speaking of whims�.. An article, �Justice Gone Awry? How to Get the U.S. Jury System Back on Track�

Certainly, the U.S. jury system has been rocked by criticism in recent year. Both in civil and criminal cases, the litany of verdicts deemed by the public to be uninformed, prejudiced or just plain wrong seems to emanate from almost every high-profile trial. The most prominent examples are well-known to us. The O.J. Simpson trial, Rodney King, the McDonald�s $2.9 million spilled coffee verdict and the $4 million BMW re-painted car trial, just to name a few.� (DecisionQuest)



Posted By: Tom123
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 2:49pm
Great article, Israfil. I agree this is a grave act of injustice, and I commend your clear and firm stand against it.

   Cristo Vive!
       - Tomasz


Posted By: ZEA J
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 10:42pm

Israfil, this is not an arab justice and is certainly not an islamic one either. Instead of "Good ole Arab justice" you may want to change the topic to something more appropriate.  



-------------
"You will never attain piety and righteousness,(and eventually paradise)until you
spend of that which you love."(Al-Imran:92)


Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 23 November 2007 at 3:13am

Quoted from above:abuayisha

"Are you aware of, or have you read any official court transcript on this case? Surely, there is another side to this story, which is essential in order for us to have an informed opinion.  Likewise, a working knowledge of Islamic law would certainly be helpful." 

I have commented in the Sister's thread upon this, but I think what I have said bears repreating here since the discussions seem to be gender separated.

What "other side" do we need?  A young girl who was gang-raped has been sentenced first to 90 lashes, then when she tried to elicit sympathy from the open world community, to 200 lashes, and prison sentence. Her lawyer has been effectively silenced.

Perhaps I am being particularly naive and "Western" here, but somehow, the "other side" seems to escape me....

 

BTW:  Israfil, I do think that comment regarding "Arab" justice is well taken.  I think "Saudi" justice would be a suitable and more accurate replacement?



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 23 November 2007 at 7:08am

Originally posted by Cassandra Cassandra wrote:

What "other side" do we need? 

To quote an often repeated phrase in our justice (American) system, �the truth is in the details� is what I would hope to read prior to trashing the Saudi judges finding.  Without reading or listening to cross-examination all we have is her claim and account of what has taken place.  I have read some of her account and find it incredulous; however, once again, not having an opportunity to watch, listen or read a full accounting, my opinion is baseless much like those attacking Saudi justice.



Posted By: Walid
Date Posted: 24 November 2007 at 3:08am

Abuayisha,

 

Saudi justice is mixed bag. Some are Islamic and many are un-Islamic. This case is weird to Islamic concept. No sane muslim scholar can defend what this judge has done. Gang rape is muharaba. Ta'zir for this lady is ok as long as it serve the justice. But lashing her out for 200 plus 6 month prision are way beyond my understanding of Islam.

So, I have my inside reports says the King family are using this as springboard to change a lot of things that stuck in pipeline.

 

 



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 10:42am
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

Originally posted by Cassandra Cassandra wrote:

What "other side" do we need? 

To quote an often repeated phrase in our justice (American) system, �the truth is in the details� is what I would hope to read prior to trashing the Saudi judges finding.  Without reading or listening to cross-examination all we have is her claim and account of what has taken place.  I have read some of her account and find it incredulous; however, once again, not having an opportunity to watch, listen or read a full accounting, my opinion is baseless much like those attacking Saudi justice.

So, you say our opinions are baseless on the fact that we have not heard cross examinations? I mean For God sakes Abuayisha! You've formed opinions in the past posting articles. Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black?



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 3:44pm

"..pot calling the kettle black."  Interesting. 

Anyway, to illustrate my point, let�s take the Rodney King incident.  Even though Mr. King was victimized, in some peoples� opinion, Mr. King had still violated the law.  Now, I assume the State did not prosecute him due to the political outcry from the African American community and the infamous videotaped beating.  But, still he did commit a prosecutable crime the night of his beating.  The Saudi judicial system has seemed to find that the rape victim also violated a law and has proceeded to prosecute irrespective to political correctness. 



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

"..pot calling the kettle black."  Interesting. 

Anyway, to illustrate my point, let�s take the Rodney King incident.  Even though Mr. King was victimized, in some peoples� opinion, Mr. King had still violated the law.  Now, I assume the State did not prosecute him due to the political outcry from the African American community and the infamous videotaped beating.  But, still he did commit a prosecutable crime the night of his beating.  The Saudi judicial system has seemed to find that the rape victim also violated a law and has proceeded to prosecute irrespective to political correctness. 

Abuayisha I love how you do your 'comparable racial analysis.' Although you could have chosen a better example and less controversial figure (its only right since this girl in the article is not a controversial figure like Mr. King per se) but nonetheless I can address you on that note.

You said: Even though Mr. King was victimized, in some peoples� opinion, Mr. King had still violated the law

There is no opinion here as it is obvious through visual demonstration this man was beaten with excessive force regardless of the crime. Police Officers are taught (much like Muslims in physical Jihad) to use necessary force to subdue someone, but when it becomes excessive without probable cause then the association of guilt-to-blame shifts between the perp, and the lawgiver.

Now, I assume the State did not prosecute him due to the political outcry from the African American community and the infamous videotaped beating.  But, still he did commit a prosecutable crime the night of his beating.

You know there was a trial right? Abuayisha you are older than me and I feel like I'm wrong in telling you you are wrong. I mean, you seem to justify ignorant Saudi rule by using a poor example. Mr. King violated the law that is obvious and I still to this day, have no respect for a man who gets his butt kicked on national television only years later get busted for the same crime he commits. This only shows that you cannot rehabilitate someone unwilling to rehabilitate themselves. I agree with you here that he did violate the law, but there is no justification in excessive force and you failed to solidify your view here. Perhaps you need another example instead of this one because it is dubious and poorly explained.

Similarly, the Muslim and Arab world made an outcry at the Marine who killed a wounded insurgent. From the video it was somewhat obvious the wounded man was still alive but according to the Marine, in fear for his life killed the man. Only when under investigation speculation was that he wanted to put the individual out of his misery of course I may be imperfectly telling this tale but the point is, is that regardless whether our intentions are positive, if our actions are not consistent with our mind (in this case the actions must be suitable to what the world sees as just) then world opposition will follow.

The Saudi judicial system has seemed to find that the rape victim also violated a law and has proceeded to prosecute irrespective to political correctness. 

This has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with ethics. If it is Saudi Arabian law that violators of premarital coitus (or being alone with an unmarried man) gets 200 lashes then so be it. However, what is wrong is the fact that she was not represented properly by a defense and that, when she spoke out about her sentence she received an additional sentence for simply speaking out. Now, one cannot speculate many things about this case and unfortunately, because we weren't rpesent in cross-examinations opinions of all sorts are the result of thus.

I'm not saying its wrong to punish people accordingly what I am saying is that its wrong to be improperly sentenced without the proper defense and proper trial. You know as well as I do that in Saudi Arabia women already do not have a fair shot in that society, that alone is enough to create a pre-conceived idea of the kind of 'fairness' Saudi Arabia gives to criminals. Simply put, when men rape in that society they get off and women suffer.

 



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 8:04pm

"Abuayisha I love how you do your 'comparable racial analysis"

And Israfil, I love you for the sake of Allah.  Anyway, are you saying that there was a trial for him evading police that night?  My memory is that those charges were dropped.  Anyway, as you know, it is common for that to occur especially with cases having to do with police misconduct.  My point is simply that one must have an understanding of Saudi justice system as well as details about the case involved.  The Saudis are really taking a hit for this case and unfortunately they don't seem to see the need to open their judiciary for public scrutiny, so how can we intelligently argue one way or the other?      



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 10:11pm

Since humans are faulty, make mistakes, abuse, etc. This also means that al systems will have miscarriages of justice based upon human error, faults, etc. It happens in every country. I saw recently on TV, a case of a man who was executed for murder. The whole thing was not quite on the up and up. The guy's lawyer actually slept through the trial! The judge ruled that he has a right to a lawyer but not one who is awake.

As this person being interviewed said, there are no millionaires on dealth row.. and I would hazard to say this is probably true all over the world.

I am curious.. I know that men and women should not be alone with nonfamily membes, spouses, etc of the opposite sex. But is it considered at "crime" in Shirah law? Obviously, or according to the ruling, the woman violated Saudi rule, but is it Shirah?  Just curious. Hope I am making sense.



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 11:44pm

I believe/think th ebig outcry here is, its not that she got punished for being along with a guy to get her picture back, but for standing up for her rights in court that lead to extra or more punishment than should have.



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 26 November 2007 at 11:44am

Plus, she was not attacked not be him, but by other men... so it could have happened if hshe had been with her brother etc. The guy she was with was also assualted..

 



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 26 November 2007 at 12:37pm

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

You know there was a trial right?

March 3, 1991:  After being seen speeding on the 210 freeway by CHP officers, King led them on a chase at speeds estimated at up to 110 to 115 mph.  When finally stopped, King refused requests to get into the prone position and appeared to charge one of the officers.  He was beaten and arrested.  King was charged with felony evading.  Charges were later dropped.

 

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/lapd/kingar rests.html

 



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 26 November 2007 at 3:28pm
Um, I'm referrnig to the trial of the police officers involved in the use of excessive force. Yes your memory does not serve you well....Wow abuayisha I'd expect more from you.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 12:48am

Officials blame victim for rape

Los Angeles Times (Saudi Arabia)

the justice ministry said a Saudi woman sentence to jail time and flogging after being raped by seven men was an adultress who invited the attack because she was partly dressed in a parked car with her lover. The statement, carried by the Saudi Press Agency, sought to ease international outrage over the case by discrediting the woman, who had said she was meeting a friend from high school when the attack occured. It said the 19-year old victim was married and had confessed to an affair. The report said the attackers saw her "in indecent condition...then the assault occured on her and the man." The seven men got prison sentences of two to nine years.

Opinion

According to Saudi law, if you dress inappropriately you "get what you deserve." What a load of crap, this poor excuse for damage control was systematically stupified by showing the world that women are still responsible even when a crime has been committed against them. This is almost like saying that she deserved it just because (assuming they are telling the truth) their dress was inappropriate. Because it is Saudi Arabia if they ounished her for her for her for whatever reason is fine but to simply say, indirectly that she deserved it for her dress is totally uncalled for. There really is no defense against such lame excuses.

 



Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 5:02am
Well,the rapists didnt get what they deserved!

-------------
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 5:23am
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/25/africa/ME-GEN-Saudi-Justice.php#end_main - http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/25/africa/ME-GEN-Saud i-Justice.php#end_main


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 7:08am

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

According to Saudi law, if you dress inappropriately you "get what you deserve." What a load of crap,

According to Saudi law she broke the law.  Like the example of Rodney King, which I mentioned previously.  What's truly amazing is that often we reject the premise of �cause and effect� with respect to rape.  I assume that feminist have been successful in redefining this issue.  As fathers aren�t we concerned and cautious about what our daughters wear?  If you tow someone�s car late at night, don�t you offer to call a cab for the individual?  When we leave our keys in our car or window open at night, thus a crime occurs do we bear any responsibility for our actions?  The females who were in Kobe Bryant and Mike Tyson�s� rooms at night, are we not allow to say, �What the heck were they doing there?�  Pure and simple, as you know very well from working in law enforcement, that some people are evil.  They are predators, who exploit the vulnerabilities of those of us who are unaware, weak, forgetful or just pain st**id.  How many of us were appalled by Jonbenet Ramsey photos, where her parents dressed her as a woman?  Sure, how cute and certainly they have this right.  Moreover, we are distressed by her murder, but sick and evil people exist.  Last year, there was a case in New Jersey, if my memory serves me well, where two young college students in miniskirts were out clubbing well after midnight.  Their car was towed and one girl passed out drunk and was taken to the hospital.  This left the other girl walking alone in a bad neighborhood and she was brutally raped and murdered.  Prey and predator � evil people are out there folks.  Good people have the right to leave their windows open and unlocked, walk alone at night, dress in whatever manner they like, but do not be so na�ve to think you are free from responsibility when bad things happen as a result of your own carelessness.    



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 8:37am

Abuayisha let's break your comments down

1) You used a poor example of Rodney King which is (a) a different issue than this one and (b) you chose an an example of a repeat defender who was inappropriately beaten with excessive force. I again have to remind you that REGARDLESS of the crime, no lawgiver is justified in using excessive force beyond what is necessary to subdue the criminal.

2) You start the premise of your previous statement by saying:

As fathers aren�t we concerned and cautious about what our daughters wear?  If you tow someone�s car late at night, don�t you offer to call a cab for the individual?

(c) I'm not a father so I cannot relate and (d) If I were a father I would be concerned about what my daughter wears HOWEVER you must also take into consideration that the carelessness to extremely conservative varies from family to family so what you may think is appropriate or what not may not be equal to another family.

don�t you offer to call a cab for the individual? 

Where do you get these examples?

I think after reading your paragraph I understand what you are saying. You believe that SOME responsibility should be shared between the woman as well as the perps who committed the crime. In that respect I agree with you. I believe if this woman is aware that Saudi law prohibits such acts and continues to commit the act anyway, she is thus at least, partly responsible for her sentence. However, my main concern is what the Saudi Press had said about her which is, she invited the rape by her dress. As I mentioned before, regardless whether a woman is dressed skimpy or with nothing on (of course we have laws here against indecent exposure) gives no man any right to rape.

Kobe? Mike Tyson? Did you see what society did to them? It's bad enough that they're rich and black but one who supposedly, sexually assaults a woman who later claims rape (but she also gets pregnant after the whole ordeal after the unknown payout by Bryant) and also Tyson went to jail for what he did (which was also unproven). Those cases have extraneous implications but with this case, this is straightforward. I still believe Saudi society is an oppressive regime. When the family drives around in their bulletproof Mercedes in the slums of Arabia then, you know there is something wrong.

 



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 27 November 2007 at 9:20am

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

 I still believe Saudi society is an oppressive regime. When the family drives around in their bulletproof Mercedes in the slums of Arabia then, you know there is something wrong.

Sure you do and thus your rush to judgment is expected, but by no means correct.



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 28 November 2007 at 7:05am

Yes we are all responsibilty for ourselves. And if a woman is raped due to her st**idity, ignorance, foolishness, etc. She pays the price by the actual event-the rape. 

Abuayisha, you are right that it is the predator -prey mentality that DOES exist. Although the most dangerous place for women is with people she knows as most rapes happen by people she knows. 

I think it is hard for many women to acknowledge this metalility of predator-prey. It is to address, acknowledge the "dark side" of humanity. People don't want to, cause its scary. I teach self-defense and for women it is really scary.  

But it most cases, rape is not proveable because its a "he said, she said" situation.

The thing is, from what I know in the case, the woman was gang-raped. Has to deal with that for the rest of her life. And is "punished' again not because she hurt other people-robbed or murdered someone but because she was really, really st**id.



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 28 November 2007 at 12:41pm

Hayfa I am (and am not) surprised by your recent posts.

I sincerely cannot believe the mentality here. There are in fact actual victims in the world. There are victims but there are also victims who contribute to their suffering and if I recall correctly, I believe I did a thread on this subject sometime long ago.

Hayfa your comment:

Yes we are all responsibilty for ourselves. And if a woman is raped due to her st**idity, ignorance, foolishness, etc. She pays the price by the actual event-the rape. 

We all don't know the actual details of the case as Abuayisha noted earlier and therefore, it is difficult to say whether our comments are true (or not). However, given the history of inequality of Saudi Arabia and in many other Muslim dominated countries we can therefore infer even for a moment that comments in the opposite (opposite in favor of these countries and their rules) that many disadvantaged women are taken advantaged of physically, mentally, spiritually, etc. I think Hayfa you have made a mistake in saying if she is raped due to her st**idity i.e. placing herself in a dangerous situation, your words are almost saying "she gets what she deserves."

Similarly, I made the comment about women in short skirts. If she wears a short skirt to a party where there is drunk men (with a lot of testosterone) and if she is raped, her st**idity has caused her thus. To me, this type of thinking is illogical and I'll tell you why:

1) To say what can and cannot a woman wears takes away individual responsibility and although we have moral principles within Islam, we must, in accordance to what God has given us naturally give humans that same right, that is freedom of expression.

2) We also understand that this "free" expression in itself is limited therefore we must clarify those limitations but must not make universal justifications if these limitations are exceeded except on a case by case analysis. To calrify, what this means is like the example I gave above we must first recognize that in a Muslim social setting wearing a short skirt is not only impermissible by law (in some countries) it is also setting oneself up to attract the wrong attention (this is setting the standar both lawfully, and also identifying our ethical standards) HOWEVER, if a rape occurs and especially if it creates physical and psychological harm and especially if the individual did not invite this harm we cannot say "well you get what you deserve."

In my opinion, being physically taken advantage of regardless of provocative dress still is unwarranted. How would you like it if I said the innocent Palestinians get what they deserve because they live in a hostile environment, because, they have the choice to move out the war zone. That would be an unfair analysis of the situation therefore I believe in order to make such an analysis we must udentify the variables (both internal and extraneous) that may affect the situation.

3) As mentioned above, there is no justification for unwarranted harm regardless whether we question the persons cognitive ability (and decision making). In my belief women, like men have a right to dress freely without repricussion (save what the law mandates) without backlash from the general public.

I think it is hard for many women to acknowledge this metalility of predator-prey. It is to address, acknowledge the "dark side" of humanity. People don't want to, cause its scary. I teach self-defense and for women it is really scary.  

Sister what world are you living in? Or are you assuming women are not aware based on your own experiences? At USC and the California State school systems many lecturers (mainly feminist) lecture on rape and a woman's reponsibilities in these situations. lecturers do not say a woman is absolved from responsibility, nor are they not looking at the so-called "predator and prey model" what they look at are the contributable factors to rape (because it not simply sexual). Sister, sad to say as a man to tell you (because you are an instructor) that sociologically speaking women have to go up against not just raped but the inequalities of life because we live primarily in a patriarchal society. So, it is not just rape in itself but also the factors of some men, treating women poorly.

rape is not proveable because its a "he said, she said" situation.

Sister that is a sad comment, and consequently wrong. Most rapes first and formost are unreported. In these cultural settings i.e. Arab/Central-South Asian culturals rape is definitely unreported due to backlash. If it is reported and if it is as you say "he said she said" it is most likely due to other variables not necessarily the accusation in itself. To say rape is unprovable to assert that there is no physical evidence which is not true. If you wish I can show some statistical evidence for my statement.

I've personally worked on rape cases and I'd like for you to tell the many women I've interviewed that there is no evidence of rape and that it is he said she said while they're at the rape clinics trying to repair the vaginal walls as well as the psychological trauma.

And is "punished' again not because she hurt other people-robbed or murdered someone but because she was really, really st**id.

Another sad statement.......

If men did that to my daughter, they would have to move to another country to keep me from having to blow their head off-Muslim or not. No woman deserves to be taken advantage of regardless of what situation she is in. Like I said, if the law has mandated her not to be alone in the company of a man she deserves to get punished for violating that mandate but she does not deserve to be gang raped. Notice the difference between the two? I can expect men to say those words sister but not you shame shame.

 

 



Posted By: ops154
Date Posted: 28 November 2007 at 4:18pm

WOW!!! It is the womens fault for being raped? By that thinking I guess it is the Iraqi civilians fault for being killed because they stayed in a war zone. Glad you guys cleared this up.

 

One day you guys will educate yourselves and find that research has shown it's not about what the girl looks like but the feeling of power the rapist feels over the women. She can be covered from head to toe and still end up being raped. When that happens do you still try to justify the rape?



-------------
Get it through your heads that I don't support Bush or the Israeli's! Thank your lucky stars for America is here to stay!!!


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 28 November 2007 at 9:07pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/nyregion/28dead.html?_r=1& amp;ref=nyregion&oref=slogin - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/nyregion/28dead.html?_r=1& amp; amp;ref=nyregion&oref=slogin

http://mediamatters.org/items/200608040004 - http://mediamatters.org/items/200608040004



Posted By: genki
Date Posted: 29 November 2007 at 12:05am
As for as this topic is concerned we need to examine it from its main points;

1. NO man nor woman is allowed to rape anybody UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. The woman or man could be naked and leading you on but if they stop or want to stop or say NO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO FORCE YOURSELF.   This is what we all want to believe and know is true and ideal However reality is different.

2. When a woman or man presents themselves in a provocative setting and leading people etc though they may not want to be raped etc THEY ARE ATLEAST IN PART RESPONSIBILE FOR IT. We have to accept responsibility that our actions may have unwanted consequences.
Hence why a woman wearing almost nothing, had been drinking etc and in the company of men and maybe even leading them on making out etc is by default increasing all the risks of her being raped and she is partly responsible due to her dress code, behavior, surrounding and intoxications.  

3. When a woman/man is raped and she/he had not done anything wrong then the rapist deserves to be stoned!
AS in the time of the prophet where a woman was raped and the people were negotiating a monetary compensation and he stepped in and demanded justice!



Now from all the news etc on this particular case and lets assume for 1 second that maybe this girl had indeed been having an affair though she was married and the guy too and she was dressed "inappropriately" and both were raped then they should all die. The woman was having an affair ie adultery and guy too and the rapists for raping them.

However if her story was true ALLAH KNOWS then even if she may not have been dressed perfectly and in a car with the guy whom she claims she just wanted her photo back from and consequentially both were raped then so long as they werent commiting adultery etc then STONE the rapists away.

I have no love for rapists at all.


Posted By: Daniel Dworsky
Date Posted: 29 November 2007 at 1:10am
It's not any kind of "good ol' justice"


Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 29 November 2007 at 5:37am
Asalaamu alaikum:
Theses are some of the Ayats from Surah An Nour, does anyone know of some others? jThs is from Yusuf Ali Translation


24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
24:4 And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

24:13 Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!

24:19 Those who love (to see) scandal published broadcast among the Believers, will have a grievous Penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: Allah knows, and ye know not.

4:30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
24:31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty.....
24:33 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),




-------------
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 29 November 2007 at 8:12am

2. When a woman or man presents themselves in a provocative setting and leading people etc though they may not want to be raped etc

I'm still trying to figure out how you guys equate wearing provocative clothing to getting raped. I can understand receiving unwanted attention but clothes by themselves do not make someone rape a woman. All rape are not always "sexual."



Posted By: ops154
Date Posted: 29 November 2007 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

2. When a woman or man presents themselves in a provocative setting and leading people etc though they may not want to be raped etc

I'm still trying to figure out how you guys equate wearing provocative clothing to getting raped. I can understand receiving unwanted attention but clothes by themselves do not make someone rape a woman. All rape are not always "sexual."

 

Thank you!!!  I don't see too many others understanding that it is not about what a girl looks like but the feeling the person gets.

 

 



-------------
Get it through your heads that I don't support Bush or the Israeli's! Thank your lucky stars for America is here to stay!!!


Posted By: genki
Date Posted: 29 November 2007 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

2. When a woman or man presents themselves in a provocative setting and leading people etc though they may not want to be raped etc

I'm still trying to figure out how you guys equate wearing provocative clothing to getting raped. I can understand receiving unwanted attention but clothes by themselves do not make someone rape a woman. All rape are not always "sexual."




Brother we both know that rape isnt always sexual and often its about dominance and power and plain old cruelty and deprivation of human rights.

However wearing revealing clothes and being provocative and hence noticeable which ever way you cut it simply stated increases your likelihood of being raped. Whether it be for sexual or power dominace purposes doesnt matter you are more likely to be raped.  Walk down harlem in a see through dress at night and provocative and your chances of being raped just went skyrocket high.

We have a responsibility to ourselves to protect ourselves as much as is possible.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 29 November 2007 at 10:46pm

Israfil,

I was not clear, my fault.. I know many, many parents of young women, THEY know it is scary out there. but do they have their daughters take self-defense classes? (They let their daughter go off to Aruba on their own with a bunch of school mates..) There are many women who don't discuss it cause it would be opening up something that scares them. We teach at colleges, self-defense.. and there are people who had no idea they should lock their door in the dorm room, I kid you not. They come from suburbia land.. and cannot always fathom that people, they might know are dangerous. 

I am not talking about street-wise people who grow up in the city. There are a whole host people who think they know what attackers look like (they'll often ask me about those "homeless" men). They live in the suburbs and think they are "more free" from crime. Their children have few survival instincts in them. I live with my two nieces in nice suburb out of DC. And they are so clueless as compared to kids that live in the city.

"He said she said" Yes they go unreported, why? Why don't people tell.. cause he'll deny it and if there is no physical proof or witnesses you would never convict him in a court of law. You know that. You know rape cases are hard to prove.

I, not for one second thinks any woman deserves to be raped. AND the reality is there ARE bad people out there. No you should not be raped. But you know, the only thing you can do is to protect yourself.

Rape is NOT about dress. Rape is about power and opportunity. Most rapes happen by someone you know. Around 66% of women who are raped know their attacker. I've heard of too many women of all ages beingf raped. Sorry their dress had nothing to do with it.

And if they were truly an Islamic society those men would not receive prison terms they would be dead. There is little justice for women anywhere in the world.   



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: raymond
Date Posted: 30 November 2007 at 4:57am
Originally posted by Walid Walid wrote:

Israfil,

 Though I have no sympathy for this women

 

Walid

You have no sympathy for this women??? Is religion not about showing sympathy and caring etc...?? you wouldnt do this to a animal. Its disgusting?



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 02 December 2007 at 12:01pm
The important thing here is women acorss the globe do not get a fair shot in life and its unfortunate that ignorant men in place of objective law impliment what they believe OUGHT to be justice. I know several friends of mine from Egypt who told me that even speaking out against the government lands you in jail imagine a woman, mentally free of male influence, speaking out against the Saudi Arabian government and more about rights of women. If this is true, why give a woman an additional punishment for speech? We humans have come a long way as an inventive species however, actions such as these have set us back 1,000 years.


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 03 December 2007 at 10:38am

Assalamu Alaikum,

It is not Saudis or Americans or Britons alone who have brought us to this point; it is rather collective misdeeds that have taken us this far; the sooner we realize, the better we will be. I think when each of us reflects over our shortcomings at all levels, the world would be a better place.

Yes, Muslims must play a greater role to guide humanity by performing morally superior actions and following great examples of the Prophet Muhammad ( SAW ) and his companions.

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 04 December 2007 at 2:05pm

I believe all men and women have the right to not be attacked and raped regardless of the situations they may put themselves in.  Yet I also believe men and women should take precautions to protect themselves.  There are classes you can take and invaluable advice online where people can learn how best to protect themselves.  Locking the doors of their homes, locking your car doors even when you are driving, wearing conservative clothes, and looking confident can all help.  They interview rapists in jail and one of the things they look for in attacking a woman is if she appears to be vulnerable.  I know Islam preaches that a woman should keep her eyes averted from men's gazes, but the attackers say if a woman meets thier eyes they are less likely to attack her.  Maybe it is a tradeoff to make yourself more safe.  Only Allah knows the right thing to do. 

Another problem is the the majority of rape and molestation cases occur within the family.  These are the least likely to get reported as well.  The vicitim often feels shame, guilt and doesn't want to create problems within the family.  How do you protect yourself from your uncle, father, step-father, etc?  One thing I believe is projecting that you will fight back, that you let people know what is going on immediately.  A woman should feel secure with her male relatives, but if she does not then she can do her best to not be alone with them and if possible, she can record the evidence if she cannot prevent the attack.  All women have a right to defend themselves in whatever way necessary.  A person if far less likely to attack someone if they know the repercussions will be severe. 

We have to let the world know we will not stand for sexual crimes.  This is not just Saudi, but every country in the world.  This problem of blaming the victim occurs everwhere.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 04 December 2007 at 7:52pm

but the attackers say if a woman meets thier eyes they are less likely to attack her

That is like the lion saying to the gazelle not to look so tasty.

If rape occurs within the family, regardless whether one looks away, wears hijab or wears a blanket, rape will happen. I do not think clothes or looking away from men will protect a woman from a predator. If a perp wants to commit a crime regardless of a person's religious duties, they will be attacked.

 



Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 04 December 2007 at 9:10pm
I agree though there are different precautions you can take dependent on who your would be attacker is.  Family members are the most difficult to protect yourself from.  Most families prefer to think it would not happen to them, but it takes the whole family to help prevent it.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 04 December 2007 at 9:36pm

Originally posted by Salams_wife Salams_wife wrote:

I agree though there are different precautions you can take dependent on who your would be attacker is.  Family members are the most difficult to protect yourself from.  Most families prefer to think it would not happen to them, but it takes the whole family to help prevent it.

I agree with what you said in the above post. However, at times, I wonder if all of us are simply helpless.



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 3:37am

I know Islam preaches that a woman should keep her eyes averted from men's gazes, but the attackers say if a woman meets thier eyes they are less likely to attack her. 

I think it entirely depends on context. No I do not stare into men's eyes. But if there is something one is doing wrong, I will make eye contact.

Its like someone on the street can ask you for something .. you can jsy keep walking, if they follow you, you either better run or stop and confront.

 I wonder if all of us are simply helpless. Yes we are..



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Walid
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 3:45am
Originally posted by raymond raymond wrote:

[QUOTE=Walid]

Israfil,

 Though I have no sympathy for this women

 

Walid

You have no sympathy for this women??? Is religion not about showing sympathy and caring etc...?? you wouldnt do this to a animal. Its disgusting?

[/QUOTE

 

You missed my point. Cool down and Re-read what I said.

 

Walid 



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 4:50am
Originally posted by peacemaker peacemaker wrote:

Assalamu Alaikum,

It is not Saudis or Americans or Britons alone who have brought us to this point; it is rather collective misdeeds that have taken us this far; the sooner we realize, the better we will be. I think when each of us reflects over our shortcomings at all levels, the world would be a better place.

Yes, Muslims must play a greater role to guide humanity by performing morally superior actions and following great examples of the Prophet Muhammad ( SAW ) and his companions.

Peace



I agree that we all need to take personal responsibilities and work to change the ills of our world.  I just want to add one more statement to this Peacemaker.  The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not the only shining example given to us over the course of human history.  There is also the other Prophets and Jesus (no matter what you believe about him).  Compassion, mercy, justice.  These things are universal.

The only evidence of her adultery is that she admitted to being alone with this man who was also victimized.  If they weren't having an affair then by the way of the Prophet Muhammad, they should have asked both of them to swear to God five times that they were not having an affair.  There were not 4 witnesses to any adultery and the accused rapists could not be trusted because they are criminals.

This girl suffered for her poor judgement.  She should have had a male relative retrieve the photograph if she is telling the truth.  If not, one has to wonder one other thing....  if she is in love with this high school friend... why did she recently get married to another man?


Posted By: Azaleah
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 3:45pm
Assalamo Alaykum wr wb.

          I agree with most of your opinion about how the Saudians are handling judicial in their country. My countrymen has been victimized by that irrational judicial system, they were being raped even killed while working as domestic helpers and there is no justice whatsoever served for the misfortunes. Being unjust is not Islam. Islam is based on peace, mercy and forgiveness.

          On the day of judgement, we will all be questioned of the deeds that we have done during out lifetime. If we cannot get justice in this world, we will surely have it on the Day of Judgement.

          We are all equal in the eyes of Allah and the noblest among us is the pious one. Islam is not represented by a certain groups or a certain race, Islam belongs to those who believes in it sincerely and following what Allah has ordained them to do and abstain from what was fobidden for them. As the Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

          "All people are equal, as equal as the teeth of a comb. An Arab is no better than a non-Arab, nor is a white person over a black person, nor is a male superior to the female. The only people who enjoy preference with God are the devout."


-------------
Leah


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 12:53am

 "All people are equal, as equal as the teeth of a comb. An Arab is no better than a non-Arab, nor is a white person over a black person, nor is a male superior to the female. The only people who enjoy preference with God are the devout."

Ameen



Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 2:14pm
I agree with you Azaleah, and that was a good quote to bring up.  I wish that people could all think this way.


Posted By: Azaleah
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 5:20pm
Assalamo alaykum wr wb.

We all should know that Islam is the only religion that enjoin equality, justice and forgiveness. Mashallah! Islam strictly promotes the notion that the punishment of sin will only be faced by those who commit them though repentance is there not until soul has reached the throat of a dying man or not until the greatest major sign of doomsday is seen. Allah is too merciful, Mashallah.  

The Prophet Muhammad relates to us that God said:
�O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind.Were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you.  Were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.� (Al-Tirmidhi)



-------------
Leah


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 5:52pm

Angela: "I agree that we all need to take personal responsibilities and work to change the ills of our world.  I just want to add one more statement to this Peacemaker.  The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not the only shining example given to us over the course of human history.  There is also the other Prophets and Jesus (no matter what you believe about him).  Compassion, mercy, justice.  These things are universal."

Angela, we Muslims believe in all the Prophets and Messengers that were sent by Allah, but we are commanded to follow Prophet Muhammad ( pbuh ). Following the final Messenger of Allah and living a life as taught by him would automatically make a Muslim respect other Prophets and Messengers--Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and others ( peace be upon them ). The final Messenger showed us complete way of life as dictated by Allah.

I will stop here as it might not be within the scope of this thread.

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Azaleah
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 5:23am
Assalamo Alaykum wr wb

They should beware of the supplication of the oppressed, for verily, there is no barrier between it and Allah.

 �True enrichment does not come through possessing a lot of wealth, but true enrichment is the enrichment of the soul.� (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)



-------------
Leah


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 3:53pm
I found the following article regarding this case from AhlelBayt:

http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/current-events/qatif

Perhaps this will clear-up some misconceptions about the case.


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 4:36pm

I believe this article does do well to clarify the rape case.  It was a good posting in this sense.

I do take offense to its accusations against Americans being "immoral fornicators" I quote.  It is like the pot calling the kettle black.  Stories are legendary around the world of Saudi men and their habits outside of Saudi.  I have seen their actions myself.  I knew a girl (though she wasn't a friend) who was living with a Saudi man in the sense of a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship while he went to school here in the United States.  There are countless stories of Saudi men going on trips to other countries with intentions that are anything but halal.  I think if there is anyone in Saudi that has a low rate of adultry and other haram activities it is the Saudi women.  Certainly not many of its men.  A good quote for their insulting American behavior (justified or not) is "Judge not, lest you be judged".



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Salams_wife Salams_wife wrote:

I believe this article does do well to clarify the rape case.  It was a good posting in this sense.

I do take offense to its accusations against Americans being "immoral fornicators" I quote.  It is like the pot calling the kettle black.  Stories are legendary around the world of Saudi men and their habits outside of Saudi.  I have seen their actions myself.  I knew a girl (though she wasn't a friend) who was living with a Saudi man in the sense of a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship while he went to school here in the United States.  There are countless stories of Saudi men going on trips to other countries with intentions that are anything but halal.  I think if there is anyone in Saudi that has a low rate of adultry and other haram activities it is the Saudi women.  Certainly not many of its men.  A good quote for their insulting American behavior (justified or not) is "Judge not, lest you be judged".



As-salam alaikum sister.  I agree with you that many people may not be as "chaste" as they might claim.  Many of the brothers can learn much from the chastity of our sisters.  And your advice is something to ponder on.  Well-said.



-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: silkworm
Date Posted: 10 December 2007 at 5:17am

i am a Moslem but I think this is pretty st**id not pretty st**id but grave injustice to that poor girl. This Saudi judge is super st**id, now who award lashes to a rape victim??? What are the basis of this decision??? Making the whole damn world laugh at ya.

Pretty gofy kinda guy, no wonder, he would allow "the killer" to go scot-free and hang the "already dead victim" for being there???



-------------
Since light travels faster than words, people appear bright untill you hear them speak.


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 16 December 2007 at 8:04am

Assalamu Alaikum,

It is just a friendly reminder. It is important that we all comply with guidelines:

Guidelines

Guidelines Updates

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 17 December 2007 at 12:41am

Report: Saudi king pardons rape victim

27 minutes ago

Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah has pardoned a female rape victim who had been sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes, a Saudi newspaper reported Monday.

Saudi Justice Minister Abdullah bin Muhammed al-Sheik told al-Jazirah newspaper that the pardon does not mean the king doubted the country's judges, but instead acted in the "interests of the people."

"The king always looks into alleviating the suffering of the citizens when he becomes sure that these verdicts will leave psychological effects on the convicted people, though he is convinced and sure that the verdicts were fair," al-Jazirah quoted al-Sheik as saying.



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 17 December 2007 at 1:16am

 

That's really good news.  

 

 



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Azaleah
Date Posted: 17 December 2007 at 2:18am
At least they are learning now to be human ....

Lucky this girl her case were followed by media, pity are those who were abused and thrown down the window and gone home dead stiff with no justice served.

May Allah bless the souls of those abused and killed and may Allah make easy for their family to face the very tragic fate happen to their loved ones, ameen.




-------------
Leah


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 17 December 2007 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Report: Saudi king pardons rape victim

27 minutes ago

Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah has pardoned a female rape victim who had been sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes, a Saudi newspaper reported Monday.

Saudi Justice Minister Abdullah bin Muhammed al-Sheik told al-Jazirah newspaper that the pardon does not mean the king doubted the country's judges, but instead acted in the "interests of the people."

"The king always looks into alleviating the suffering of the citizens when he becomes sure that these verdicts will leave psychological effects on the convicted people, though he is convinced and sure that the verdicts were fair," al-Jazirah quoted al-Sheik as saying.

Perhaps this act was sincere but history has shown such politicians tend to make such decisions solely based on media attention and how it would affect them politically. This gesture of his may or may not be sincere however the important thing is she didn't have to be punished for it.



Posted By: silkworm
Date Posted: 17 December 2007 at 11:33pm
Great, we are saved form being a laughing stock of this world

-------------
Since light travels faster than words, people appear bright untill you hear them speak.


Posted By: Huzi
Date Posted: 18 December 2007 at 11:03pm

Great News. Finally sense of mercy was prevailed by the King which was not shown by the Judges. And one of Judges had even told that he would have been happy if the both victim and the rapist were put to death. May Allah not shown him mercy on the day of Re-surrection.

Though the girl was guilty of being alone with unrelated man in indecent condition but I am happy that the girl got pardoned but the rapist should get the maximum possible punishment as they have ruined the life of a girl for their pleasure and they do not deserve mercy for what they did.

I would like to point out the two instances when the Prophet(Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) had prescribed the punishment for zina on the repeated insistence of the guilty to purify them. 

In one instance a married man came to the prophet and told that he committed zina, prophet turned his face away and told him to ask Allah for forgiveness. He again said to the prophet that he commited zina, prophet again turned his face away. When he had confessed against himself four times, prophet asked him if he was insane or drunk to which he replied in negative then prophet ordered him to be stoned to death.

In another instance a married women came to prophet and said that she became pregnant because of Zina and asked prophet to purify her. Prophet sent her away but she returned and asked 'O prophet of Allah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), why do you turn me away?..." Then prophet said if you insist then come after you have given birth to the child. When she returned after the birth of the child, prophet asked her to return after she had weaned the baby. When she again returned with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand then the prophet pronounced the stonning punishment to her.

See the way the prophet dealt with case giving amples of chances to them to go away so that they do not get the punishment. But it was on the repeated insistence of guilty for the purification punishment that the prophet ordered it.

But we see in todays saudi judges who claim to base their judgment on sharia, they do not have even remotest tinge of mercy in them. When guilty files a mercy appeal they will instead increase their punishment. A vast contrast to our prophet's way!



Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 12:46am
Thats a bit harsh isnt it? The woman feared her faith by her acts. That's why
she asked the prophet for guidance but she was sent away. If she wasn't
pregnant he would have commanded her death but the child is now
orphaned. How was that justice? Must the child suffer for his mother's sin?

If Allah is merciful why couldnt he be merciful enough to command
Muhammed to forgive her sins? Don't you find it odd?


Posted By: Huzi
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 1:41am

When the sahabiya women went the first time, immediately prophet(peace be upon him) told her to seek forgiveness from Allah. This mercy was put into prophets heart by Allah who has created you and me. The Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) presented the woman an opportune moment of going back and reviewing their situations and secretly repenting. But she insisted on being cleansed and purified for her sin in the spirit of true repentance. If she had headed prophets advice and gone away and seeked Allah's forgiveness then indeed Allah is most mercifull and he would have forgiven her. As Allah had stated in Quran, Sura 004 Ayat 017 "Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon aftrewards; to them will Allah turn in mercy: For Allah is full of Knowledge and wisdom."  So there are conditions for mercy.

According to your definition of mercy all those 7 rapist should also have been forgiven and all the robbers, drug dealers, mass murderers(like George Bush, Blair, hitler, saddam etc) should also have been forgiven. Allah is not only mercifull but just at the same time. Mercy comes inplay when injustice is not done to others.

And the child did not suffer at all nor was not left orphaned. The holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and thereafter pronounced punishment. While stoning her, some blood fell on Khalid ibn Walid's face who rebuked and cursed her so loudly that the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) overhead him. The prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said Softly, 'O Khalid, this woman has repented so sincerely that if it were to be divided among seventy people of Madinah, it would have been sufficient for their salvation.'

 



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 1:57am

Can someone just clear one thing for me please.? In the case of the woman who had commited zina, was she asking that she be stoned to death, or was it that she didnt fully understand the Prophets message(pbuH)to go away and ask Allahs forgiveness.

I understand that there is always forgiveness for a sin, but that punishment is sometimes necessary for the forgiveness to come about.



Posted By: Huzi
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 4:20am
She was asking for purification of her sin in this world itself by the punishment for that specific sin. prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) had given her the choice to repent to Allah but she choose to be purified in this world itself and not carry that to the next world.


Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 22 December 2007 at 12:11am
Purification means stoned to death? What "purification" is that if she would
not live the remainder of her life in pureity? From what I understood she
commited the sin once and asked for forgiveness. Muhammed wouldn't
forgive her at once because he knew what was to be done...death. Because
she was pregnant he postponed it till the child was able to survive, at best,
without her.

Is this what Sharia is? Is this what the fundementalists in London and
Amsterdam want to achieve? A seperate Sharia based law? Do native
Englishmen really want to see Piccadilly Square run with the blood of
adulters and sinners?


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 3:52am

Anatolian,

You are totally ignorant about shariah or how it works.Yet you arrogantly argue with no logic.Huzi's explanation was clear and if you dont get it,you're just blinded by a hatred of islam.Atleast muslims dont have to put with the sin of their great father Adam.In islam we are all born pure.Can you explain how a new born carries a sin it had nothing to do with?



-------------
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 8:30am

I agree with Anatolian with bias, that women in this contemporary world would not allow themselves to be stoned to death if they can avoid it. I mean, asking God's forgiveness is just as sufficient and would surpass repentence in this life and the next. I don't think Huzi's explanation is clear enough to rebuke those of us who may criticize that interpretation. I'm not saying it was NOT clear I'm saying maybe Huzi's explanation is only best understood to those who may agree with that but with that interpretation of that Hadith you may want to make some things clear.

The way I see it the women in the time of the prophet Muhammad were more religious than women of today therefore with that in mind any punishment that is set for those who sinned greatly are more likely to accept that decision (if they believe they will attain full forgiveness and paradise) than women of today. Let see, if I had a choice to be have my skull cracked or seek Allah's forgiveness I would definitely choose the later. Not only becuase being stoned is quite painful and would most certainly kill me, but because I may want to change my life and want a second chance. I think it is important that when interpreting Hadith we make sure to say that this is how you interpret the Hadith unless you are a certified Sheikh and scholar of Shar'ah and Hadith it's best not to misinterpret Islamic text at all.



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 3:27am
I look at it like this.  Stoning robs a person of a chance to become better.  I led a very poor life for a period of about 5 years.  I had lost all faith.  Had I lived in another part of the world or in a different time, I would be dead.  Instead, I came to know my God, what he wanted of me and was able to repent.  I am now faithfully married and deeply devoted to God.

I see a stark difference here because this woman chose her punishment. Suicide by remorse?  Some people cannot learn to forgive themselves even though God is most merciful and forgiving to the truly repentant.

I feel that certain sins must be punished.  Those that are heinously committed against another person.  Murder, rape, abuse, torture...even thievery.  But, when  ones sin is a personal one, then its between that person and God.  Drinking, premarital sex, blasphemy.  These are between the person and God.  They are not for men to judge.  God knows the intentions of the heart, men only know what they want to.

Men will use their power in a corrupt manner, its a human trait that we cannot get rid of.  You will always have injust and partial judges no matter what legal system you have. 

Sharia is full of the same flaws that the Western legal system has.  You have varying opinions, bias and the lack of reason and compassion.  Perhaps if Prophets were the only judges, things might be different.  But, they aren't. 

The courts were very harsh on the woman with the only witnesses to her indiscretion being her assailants.  She and her friend claim they were not in a state of undress.  But, the worst was believed from the worst possible witnesses.  And so her judgement was harsh with no proof. 

I would like to point out her husband, the only one who would have been wronged by her indiscretion has been supportive of her the entire time.  Now, if he believes her and supports her, then who was wronged?  That's between the girl and God.  Surely if her husband believed she was having an affair he would have divorced her. 

I'm not harsh on Sharia.  I just believe that mankind is too imperfect to be in charge of judging personal behavior in a manner that can constitute death.  Putting a Murder to death, I think we as humans have the capacity to understand the evil heart of a murder.  I do not believe we have the capacity to judge the most basic weaknesses or trials of the human heart.  So, I don't believe that mankind has a right to sentence to death sinners. 

I have heard all the arguments of purification.  Frankly, I think its a bit arrogant to think that any worldly judgment could even be a tenth of what our Lord's judgment would be.  I don't think getting punished in this life saves you from punishment in the next life.  If the person is unrepentant or only repentant because she was caught and sentence to a harsh punishment, then the intention is not there.  However, if a person on their own prays and communes with God in sincere repentance, then God will deal with them justly. 

I personally believe you are going to look at all the murders at judgment day and see the men who cast stones a young men and women right with them.  That is my belief.  And on their left will be all those who's pride and malice was so great that they had no compassion or mercy.  For if you do not have mercy, you will not receive mercy.


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 1:38am

Salaam,

I'm not a sheik or scholar but this is how i see adultery was dealt with during the prophet's(pbuh) time.If i'm wrong here any certified person can correct me.

In the prophet's reign,sharia to say shortly "closed all doors to evil and opened all doors to good".A person would have hardly had the necessity to commit adultery because marriage was promoted and all tempting factors for adultery were rid of.Death by stoning was more a deterrent than a punishment.It only happens when the guilty are caught in the act and 4 witnesses testify against them.Or if the guilty confesses to it 4 times.Less than 4 witnesses or 4 confessions cant convict a person no matter how evident it may be,say by pregnancy. And people rarely dared to make false accusations and such people were lashed.

People were god fearing and righteous then,they wanted God's laws to protect the sanctity and morality of their society and they abided by the rules even if they had to be stoned.



-------------
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Azaleah
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 4:37am
Adultery is done by an unmarried woman or man and punishable by 80 lashes for their atonement of sin. While fornication were  done by a married woman/man and the atonement is Rajjam or stoning to death.

What happen to the Palestinian girl accordingly is that, she is with a man not her mahram, in a car when she was raped. She faced 80 lashing because of that and the Sharian increases it to 200 lashes when her lawyer appeal to lessen the verdict and the lawyer as well, were debarred!!

But what I am not so sure is, do they have witness to testify that indeed she is in that car with a man not her mahram, willingly? Or she was picked-up against her will by that man and raped by his companion? The news i read isnt that clear...

And what I want to know more is, whats the basis of the King to pardon her? Shariah Law is not a man-made law that anyone can have their fingers on it. It is a God's law and only Allah can changed it...what went wrong?? Or maybe they only realized their mistake after reviewing the case due to the clamor from media and the havoc it created? hmmmm



-------------
Leah


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 5:06am

Azaleah, you said:-

Adultery is done by an unmarried woman or man and punishable by 80 lashes for their atonement of sin. While fornication were  done by a married woman/man and the atonement is Rajjam or stoning to death.


That is not right. I have pasted the following from an Islamic site:-

it is to be noted that the punishment specified for an unmarried person guilty of fornication in the Shari`ah is 100lashes

As for the punishment specified in the Shari`ah for adulterer or adulteress, it is stoning to death the married.

I will post the link directly after this.



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 5:08am

www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=111799 - 77k -

I hope this is helpful to you

Salaams



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 7:18am

Israfil,

Anatolian wasnt mentioning what you said you agreed with him on.He was criticizing the prophet and sharia as being unjust and incompassionate.

Most of us living in morally bankcrupt societies would need not just a second chance but multiple chances.Such punishments apply only to states that are ruled by sharia and sharia comes with all the means for people to avoid the crimes that lead to such punishments.



-------------
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 7:28am

Angela,

Punishments in sharia are not for purification.Like you rightly said no amount of punishments can purify an unrepentant person.The hadith clearly mentions the prophet giving the woman 3 chances to purify herself by seeking Allah's forgiveness,which she did.The 4th instance the law had to take course.

Suicide by remorse? No.Obedience to Law.

Sharia is flawed? No.If we are to understand it from contemporary so-called sharias and come to conclusions then our understanding is flawed.



-------------
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 7:43am

 

 Yes, even though the punishments are harsh, or appear to be harsh, it is not so. In the real Islamic society, there would be no compulsion in the matter of choosing one's religion. That is a good freedom of choice and peaceful living.

The punishment for stealing is to cut the hand of the man thief or lady thief. That may appear to be harsh but it is not so. If every one is given equal opportunity to learn and progress and get  job and if the poor are well looked after by system of Zakat, then there is no room, no need to steal anything. Even then if some one steals, he/she disturbs the public. May steal valuables or some important Will. That is not allowed.

 Same goes for the Zina. If there is easy way to get married and live a respectable life then it cannot be allowed to do any extra marital activity. I am sure that even the christians will also not allow it. But the situation has become so bad in the christian countries that they have all forgotten about a pure way of life. Now they are surely afraid that if such a punishment is implemented or acted upon then many will be killed or wounded. That is no excuse. Why should any one try to do any dirty work in the society in the first place??

 If any one wants a clean society then he/she should be prepared for the harsh punishments. There is no other way. The matter of stoning is okay. But I hope no death penalty is prescribed in the quran. I know my friends will not like what I have just said. But it is so. There is no stoning to death in Islam. I do not want to start a debate on that subject. Thanks.



-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 7:59am

Originally posted by Anatolian Anatolian wrote:

Purification means stoned to death? What "purification" is that if she would
not live the remainder of her life in pureity? From what I understood she
commited the sin once and asked for forgiveness. Muhammed wouldn't
forgive her at once because he knew what was to be done...death. Because
she was pregnant he postponed it till the child was able to survive, at best,
without her.

Is this what Sharia is? Is this what the fundementalists in London and
Amsterdam want to achieve? A seperate Sharia based law? Do native
Englishmen really want to see Piccadilly Square run with the blood of
adulters and sinners?

 Anatolian, please do not worry. Nobody is going to kill (stone) any one in London or Amsterdam. They can do as much Zina (fornication) as they like in London. Nobody will say anything.

But in London, the law used to be that you could do what you liked (I hope you understand) in Hyde Park. Nobody will say anything. But, in the end,  a detective will follow you and if you pay anything to the lady then he will catch you and you will appear in the court next day. There will be no stoning. So do not worry. Only a news item usd to appear in the "News of the World" newspaper.

 About any one asking for the Sharia laws in England, it may be for themselves (Muslims) and not for others.  But that is a long way off. NO IMMEDIATE threat to anyone. At least it shows that some people (Muslims) are terribly worried about the state of affairs (too much fornication) in those countries.



-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 8:04am

 

 I forgot to mention the punishment for adultry (or fornication) in the Law of Moses a.s. Please read the old Testament and we will find some very harsh / severe punishments there. The punishment for stoning the adulterer is there in that book. So beautiful was that law which even if implemented in those western countries would rid them of most evils.

 So what would Anatolian say about that law. Was it harsh and merciless?



-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 31 December 2007 at 7:55am

Minuteman wrote,

I hope no death penalty is prescribed in the quran. I know my friends will not like what I have just said. But it is so. There is no stoning to death in Islam. I do not want to start a debate on that subject. Thanks.

Salaam brother,

In my opinion,death penalty did not exist in the early period of the Islamic state because Laws were being gradually absorbed in tandem with the moral and social development of the state.This is how i see the laws for adultery/fornication developed over time.

And for the harlots among your women, call four witnesses, from among your people, against them. Thus, if they testify, then confine them to their houses until death claims them or God ordains for them another way. And for the two, who are guilty of lewdness from among you, punish them both [with a beating]. Then if they repent and [promise to] correct their behavior, then let them be. Indeed God accepts repentance most; Infinitely Merciful. [4:15-16]

For the male and the female guilty of fornication, flog them both a hundred stripes. Let not mercy for them overtake you in the implementation of God's law, if you truly believe in God and the Final Day. And let the implementation of the punishment be witnessed by a group of believers. [24:2]

[4:15-16] was revealed in the early stages of Islam as a temporary measure as per the conditions then.It was then preceded by [24:2] when the conditions (moral and social) improved and hence tougher laws came in.Still no death penalty.Death penalty became law only after the following verse was revealed.

 The punishment of those, who declare a war against God and His messenger and try to spread unrest in the land is nothing but that they be sentenced to a painful death or to crucifixion or that their one hand and one foot of the opposite side be amputated or that they be sent in exile. This punishment is a disgrace for them in the life of this world, and in the hereafter, a great punishment awaits them. Except for those who repent [and correct their behavior] before you catch them. Be mindful that God is Forgiving, Merciful [for the repentant]. [5:33-34]

Hadiths mention the prophet handing out stoning for adultery/fornication since this revelation.Would that mean the prophet was acting in violation of the Quran as in [24:2]?

No.It only means that the prophet dealt adultery/fornication since then as fasaad fil-ardh ie.spreading unrest/immorality as in this case.

Thats my understanding on this.I'm open to consider your opinions.


 



-------------
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 31 December 2007 at 11:21pm

Salaam,

Elaborating on the death penalty, besides Qisas, it only applies when a crime fits as fasaad fil-ardh, ie.creating unrest/corruption in the land. Prostitution, habitual fornication, rape, homosexuality and incest fits as such. In my opinion, adultery would have been considered as such after the Islamic state reached its highest standard.

If we are to consider the penalty for zina [adultery/fornication] only from the verse 24:2 and ignore the sunnah, then i think all the above mentioned crimes would also come under zina and hence the penalty for all these crimes will be only 100 lashes. But then we will be contradicting Quranic injunction as in verse 5:33.

Therefore, the only way we can harmonize both the Quranic injunctions is by following the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) ie. death penalty for zina that constitutes as fasaad fil-ardh and 100 lashes for zina that doesnt.

 



-------------
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 31 December 2007 at 11:41pm

Salaam,

We rejoiced the Saudi king's pardon of the Qatif girl as some great justice been done. In my opinion, this is what should have happened in a real sharia.

The girl and the boy should have been pardoned for their only proven misconduct, ie. meeting alone though unrelated and let go with no hassles, on account of having suffered rape and sodomy.

All the rapists should have been stoned to death.

Justice as yet, has not been served.

I'm just wondering how the girl or the boy would feel, if they encounter their rapists on the streets in a few years time.



-------------
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 6:57am

 

 Saladin, thank you for advising me on the subject of fornication that it is equal to a war against Allah and his messenger. That it is like fasaad fil ardh. Thank you. It is better to leave this subject otherwise it will become a debate. Thanks.



-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net