Hello from America
Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: General
Forum Name: Introduction: Who am I?
Forum Description: Introduce yourself here.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10642
Printed Date: 23 April 2024 at 6:10am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Hello from America
Posted By: Diagoras
Subject: Hello from America
Date Posted: 06 November 2007 at 6:40pm
Well, here goes.
I was flipping through the channels on my TV, from one random news station to another. I happened to land on FOX news and watched some guy rant about Islam, going on about how it is evil and intolerant. Then it hit me: I actually don't know any Muslims. Or Arabs. Or anyone from the Middle East. Everything I hear is from the government or from some giant news corporation.
This is even true on the Internet. Muslims stick to some websites, non-Muslims to others. So I googled "Islam" and picked the first link that wasn't an article or a rant. And here I am.
So, an atheist, upper-class, fervently democratic-republican American has arrived on your forum. I'm interested in getting to know and understanding a group of people I've been told we're at war with, yet I've never met.
Anyway, hi.
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Replies:
Posted By: marchfriday
Date Posted: 06 November 2007 at 9:44pm
hi, welcome to forum Yes biased media reporting could be attributed to geographical and religious affiliations. Many times i found conflicting reports on the on different channels. Anyhow you will get all flavours here..just stay here..be part of running threads.
------------- "Indeed, Allah is with those who fear Him and those who are doers of good."[16: 128]
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Posted By: Randolph Cabral
Date Posted: 08 November 2007 at 1:47pm
Hi,
I too am new to this forum. For what it is worth, it is perhaps always better to get to know people for who they are as you personally know them, not for who others say they are.
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 09 November 2007 at 6:00pm
Diagoras wrote:
Well, here goes.
I was flipping through the channels on my TV, from one random news station to another. I happened to land on FOX news and watched some guy rant about Islam, going on about how it is evil and intolerant. Then it hit me: I actually don't know any Muslims. Or Arabs. Or anyone from the Middle East. Everything I hear is from the government or from some giant news corporation.
This is even true on the Internet. Muslims stick to some websites, non-Muslims to others. So I googled "Islam" and picked the first link that wasn't an article or a rant. And here I am.
So, an atheist, upper-class, fervently democratic-republican American has arrived on your forum. I'm interested in getting to know and understanding a group of people I've been told we're at war with, yet I've never met.
Anyway, hi.
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Hi Diagoras,
We welcome you to IslamiCity.
We won't give you any clarifications as how are we not tolerant and how is this religion not evil. But yes, we like u to know by yourselves, being an active member here and discussing.. Insha-Allah,{If Allah wills}, u shall get all your questions answered. We welcome any kind of questions from u. We have a very good panel of members and mods who shall help u here.
Now,after meeting us, do u think we are at war ? .Such are we misunderstood and blamed. Anyways i Pray Allah swt, to bless you.
See u active in discussions. We have many sections, U can participate there and get your questions clarified.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 09 November 2007 at 6:05pm
Randolph Cabral wrote:
Hi,
I too am new to this forum. For what it is worth, it is perhaps always better to get to know people for who they are as you personally know them, not for who others say they are.
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Hi Randolph Cabral,
We welcome you to the discussions of Islamicity .
Yes, you got it right. That we better know people personally rather than knowing it from others. Hope and wish u enjoy being a part of Islamicity. KNOW US BETTER
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Posted By: on1on5
Date Posted: 13 November 2007 at 12:52pm
Hello both to Randolph and to the upper-class fervently democratic republican Diagoras.
Please be sure that I am very glad to see you here and we may even be thankful to the big liers of media since they provoked a reaction and curiosity in you to learn more about Islam.
Once you become suspicious about the "fact" being imposed on you and begin to investigate the facts underlying the "fact" then the door is wide open to you.
Islam is not an Arabic religion and god in Islam-Allah-is not a middle eastern god. Maybe this simple statement is the first to be thought on by a westerner.
I am sure that you will benefit much from this website and be surprised about the things you learn about Muslims. Please donot ignore the Islam as a thinking method while studying Muslims as a social issue. welcome again.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 17 November 2007 at 9:42am
Peace D,
Here is a link to a post on this site that talks about some important Islaamic concepts:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10685 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10685
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 17 November 2007 at 9:44am
Diagoras wrote:
Well, here goes.
I was flipping through the channels on my TV, from one random news station to another. I happened to land on FOX news and watched some guy rant about Islam, going on about how it is evil and intolerant. Then it hit me: I actually don't know any Muslims. Or Arabs. Or anyone from the Middle East. Everything I hear is from the government or from some giant news corporation.
This is even true on the Internet. Muslims stick to some websites, non-Muslims to others. So I googled "Islam" and picked the first link that wasn't an article or a rant. And here I am.
So, an atheist, upper-class, fervently democratic-republican American has arrived on your forum. I'm interested in getting to know and understanding a group of people I've been told we're at war with, yet I've never met.
Anyway, hi.
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D,
What is a fervently democratic republican?
This is from a sincerly devout Muslim American who has voted for Nader in every past election, and may write him in this time.
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 17 November 2007 at 9:47am
Check out my sig's link.
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 17 November 2007 at 4:28pm
Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 17 November 2007 at 5:55pm
This is my what? It's my preferred from of government if that's what you mean.
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 17 November 2007 at 11:40pm
Diagoras wrote:
This is my what? It's my preferred from of government if that's what you mean. |
Peace D,
I'm not trying to pick on you, really. But that's like saying my preferred planet is Earth. I mean, you and I were born in America, right? So we like our government, well, for me, sort of.
I like the idea of separation of powers, but the idea is not working. Otherwise Bush would have been impeached long ago for usurping congressional and judicial powers.
Peace.
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 17 November 2007 at 11:43pm
I concur. However, many people do not live under our system and many oppose it. On the web, which is international, I like to proclaim my allegiance to democracy.
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 18 November 2007 at 12:31am
Diagoras wrote:
I concur. However, many people do not live under our system and many oppose it. On the web, which is international, I like to proclaim my allegiance to democracy. |
As an American Muslim, my allegiance is to Allah, The All-Knowing, The Wise, The forgiving, The All-Powerful, The Loving.
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 18 November 2007 at 10:20am
And to the Constitution, right?
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 18 November 2007 at 5:55pm
Diagoras wrote:
Well, here goes.
I was flipping through the channels on my TV, from one random news station to another. I happened to land on FOX news and watched some guy rant about Islam, going on about how it is evil and intolerant. Then it hit me: I actually don't know any Muslims. Or Arabs. Or anyone from the Middle East. Everything I hear is from the government or from some giant news corporation.
This is even true on the Internet. Muslims stick to some websites, non-Muslims to others. So I googled "Islam" and picked the first link that wasn't an article or a rant. And here I am.
So, an atheist, upper-class, fervently democratic-republican American has arrived on your forum. I'm interested in getting to know and understanding a group of people I've been told we're at war with, yet I've never met.
Anyway, hi.
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Hello, welcome to the forum. Insha Allah ( God willing ), you would like this place. Following are some useful links that may be helpful:
http://www.islamicity.com/education/understandingislamandmuslims/ - http://www.islamicity.com/education/understandingislamandmus lims/
English translation of Qur'an:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM - http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM
You may also like to read the guidelines to familiarize yourself with the rules and regulations that everyone here is expected to comply with:
Guidelines
Guidelines Updates
May Allah guide us and enlighten us all at every point as we strive to seek knowledge of Islam.
Peace
------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 18 November 2007 at 7:01pm
Diagoras wrote:
And to the Constitution, right? |
You mean how it allowed slavery and didn't give the vote to women and blacks?
No. I think I'll bravely say that we could use a new one. We have way too many loopholes allowing for systemic human rights abuses in and outside of America.
If a bunch of ethnocentric, slaveowning white guys could do it, I'd say that we'd have a good chance of doing a better job today with women, blacks, asians, hispanics, arabs contributing to the process.
Peace
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 18 November 2007 at 9:01pm
The fact that both of those horrors were abolished shows that the system works, it self-corrects. But anyway, what in particular would you rewrite?
Oh, by the way, it's not the American Constitution in particular that my sig talks about but rather a constitutional form of government. Namely, a representative democracy with separation of powers and enshrined individual liberties.
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 21 November 2007 at 6:09am
Diagoras wrote:
The fact that both of those horrors were abolished shows that the system works, it self-corrects. But anyway, what in particular would you rewrite?
Oh, by the way, it's not the American Constitution in particular that my sig talks about but rather a constitutional form of government. Namely, a representative democracy with separation of powers and enshrined individual liberties.
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Salaams,
Enshrining something is akin to worshipping it. The Constitution is a piece of paper written by the people I mentioned previously, a bunch of nasty white guys who cared for their own freedoms but not that of people of color or women.
They did a few things right. We should keep those things. It is not self-correction when the blood and lives of hundreds of thousands is spilled to change it. And right now it is an embarrassing, evil shame on all of us. We sit here quietly discussing this while millions of people suffer because of its inadequacies.
Now, if the people of this land -- where I and my family have lived for a couple hundred years -- rise up, as Tom Jefferson recommended we do, and overthrow this tyranical, evil, culture-and-country-destroying machine, then I may say that it is eventually self-correcting. I am ashamed of this government and those of my people who are in power today who allow this evil empire that it has become, to continue, while all we do is say: This is bad! We need to do something! Let's DO something!
Wait. Maybe the people who are relatively comfortable in our homes, even though we struggle with all of the torture and deaths, are just sitting here saying: As long as they don't come for Me, it's better not to really do anything. (We know that this lack of principle has not worked in the past of course. They'll come for us whenever it suits them.)
We should have stood up to Bush and thrown him out long ago! We are responsible, and so is our constitution, which I consider completely unenshrinable.
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 21 November 2007 at 12:42pm
Okay, what would you change about the Constitution?
And by the way, do you support a constitutional democratic republic?
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 24 November 2007 at 10:21am
Diagoras wrote:
Okay, what would you change about the Constitution?
And by the way, do you support a constitutional democratic republic?
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Salaams,
To answer your first question, I would need to sit down with that paper, the constitution, and go over it in detail to tell you the necessary changes, which I'm not interested in doing. When I am asked to be a part of a committee that would undertake that, that might be a different story.
As to your second question, I kind of feel like a Czech during the Second World War being questioned by the Nazis during occupation as to my loyalties to the Fuhrer. Do you know how bad that question sounds during these times of the UnPatriotic Act and liberal suspension of your hallowed "Bill of Rights"?
People are shocked when I tell them that DHS could come into anyone's homes here in good ole USA and search, seize, and take you away without charging you or informing anyone of your whereabouts.
When you haven't seen me post for months at a time, you'll know I'm banned, dead or taken prisoner for being a believer in Allah, and a believer in human rights and freedom, and an outspoken critic of your hallowed system of government and finances!
Allah, the Most Loving, does not take human rights away ever. Allah, The Glorious, gives us rights and responsibilities, and our loyalites as Muslims lie with Allah, The Most Righteous, not a government system or a paper that destroys humanity, and especially those who love Allah.
Allah, The Just, embued women and people of all races with inherent dignity. It is only blind loyalty to systems not inspired by Allah that creates agony among humanity. We need to know that all cultures, all races, all people can return to Allah's mercy through listening to the wisdom that Allah, The Wise, has provided for us. Really, we need to start by stopping the destruction and by taking real, positive action that makes a difference in this world. And I say that last sentence to you as a fellow American.
Peace
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 24 November 2007 at 12:18pm
Erm...the United States is the way it is today precisely because it didn't follow its constitutional origins. As you pointed out, the Bill of Rights specifically prohibits many currently existing laws and is being violated.
I'm not asking if you support America, or its Constitution. I'm asking if you support a system built on the principles of a constitutional republic (institutional checks and balances, power comes from the people, separation of church and state, etc.) From your reply I'm guessing you support a theocratic state, is this true?
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 24 November 2007 at 8:31pm
Diagoras wrote:
Erm...the United States is the way it is today precisely because it didn't follow its constitutional origins. As you pointed out, the Bill of Rights specifically prohibits many currently existing laws and is being violated.
I'm not asking if you support America, or its Constitution. I'm asking if you support a system built on the principles of a constitutional republic (institutional checks and balances, power comes from the people, separation of church and state, etc.) From your reply I'm guessing you support a theocratic state, is this true?
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Salaams,
I disagree with you Diagoras. The problem rests in the fact that the US government was founded by people who owned slaves and didn't regard women as intelligent beings with the right to vote. A foundation of such evil matters can only bring evil into it.
However, Islaam came into an idol worshiping, misogynistic, corrupt, class conscious, slave trading society and turned it around with some immediate laws, and some that were eased in over time to end all of these evil practices.
Many people have twisted the laws of Allah, The Evolver, and they will meet the judgment of Allah, The All-Powerful for their deeds. However, the basic ideals of how a society should operate do lie within the tenets of Islaam. And that is a much better place to start to make a document designed to govern with peace, fairness, and respect for human and animal life and property.
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 24 November 2007 at 9:30pm
The United States also grew out of its slave-trading, misogynistic background. However, theocracies such as Afghanistan and Iran have intensely oppressive laws regarding women and civil liberties.
Where in the tenets of Islam are checks and balances, or democracy, or unalienable liberties enumerated? And how is a government built on Muslim principles fair to all of its non-Muslim citizens?
Democracy and republicanism - including respect for human rights - only arose out of the Enlightenment when the power of religious, autocratic authorities was replaced with secular, democratic ones. Christofascist here in the United States are trying to return us to a Dark Ages civilization, I do not wish to follow them.
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 6:38am
Diagoras, USA is a recent case. The example of England may even be better than USA as far as democracy is concerned. Please have a look at the recent and very old history too. Then tell us something, some example of good and bad governments.
I won't support the present day Iran but I will ask you whether you knew anything about the late king of Iran. Is the present system of Iran better or that rule by the King??
Also please keep in mind the lesson / opinion given by the greatest philosopher (Socrates) who preferred the rule by a philosopher king as the best one ( The Republic). He kept the democracy at the third place. We need to look after the moral values also, not only liberties and the statues of unbridled liberties.
So far, the going is quite good for USA. But who knows what is in store for the people. Every one is free to think and solve the national problems. We hope they will keep up their good work.
If leaders in Iran and Afghanistan are not ruling well then that is not the fault of Islam. It can be blamed on the misguided leaders. The state may not be theocratic at all. But if a state sticks to the good advice given in the Quran then all matters of reasonable civil liberties are defined in that book. One can make maximum use of it. No harm.
And the transition can be gradual, as it had happened in Makkah and Madinah. Many non muslim governments of the present day are far better and much more sensible than the muslim governments. The Muslims should have learnt a good lesson from the secular governments. But they did not. So they will keep on suffering. And they will bring a bad name to the religion of Islam too.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 10:41am
I find this discussion interesting, however, it's rather offtopic for a "Hello" forum. Would anyone be interested in continuing this discussion in the "World Politics" forum?
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 8:08pm
Diagoras wrote:
I find this discussion interesting, however, it's rather offtopic for a "Hello" forum. Would anyone be interested in continuing this discussion in the "World Politics" forum?
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Salaams,
Idha momken, na'am. If it is possible, sure.
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 8:27pm
It's up in the "World Politics" forum, the topic is "Political Systems."
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 26 November 2007 at 3:06am
Diagoras, just when I was ready to score a point, you have shifted the goal post. What we had written before has been left behind.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 26 November 2007 at 5:02am
A fair point. I'll post a reply to your point in that topic.
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 26 November 2007 at 5:05am
minuteman wrote:
Diagoras, just when I was ready to score a point, you have shifted the goal post. What we had written before has been left behind. |
ROFL. You KNOW you can cut and paste, right?
------------- Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 26 November 2007 at 5:07am
Yeah, that was kinda my idea.
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Posted By: Diagoras
Date Posted: 26 November 2007 at 6:57pm
minuteman, my response is up.
And come on herjihad, join the discussion.
------------- A proud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic - constitutional democratic republican .
The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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