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Sunni Shiite Islam

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: Matters/topics, related to various sects, are discussed where only Muslims who may or may not belong to a sect take part.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=106
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Topic: Sunni Shiite Islam
Posted By: Shamiala
Subject: Sunni Shiite Islam
Date Posted: 12 March 2005 at 9:08am

Salam brothers and sisters.

i have recently been doing some research regaarding sects in Islam in particular the Sunni and the Shiite. when doing my research i have managed to gather alot of literature with regard to Shiite beliefs. i have not fully identified what the Sunni's believe in yet. if anybody could guide me as to any books or internet websites that may be of use please let me know.

Thank you

Any help will be much appreciated

Allah Hafiz




Replies:
Posted By: Mustafaa
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 4:29am

Okay, I now suggest you some references but please take the given reservations into consideration.

Well, most Islamic websites such as IslamiCity itself ( http://www.islamicity.com - www.islamicity.com ) represent the Sunni understanding of Islam. http://www.islamonline.net - www.islamonline.net  can also be recommended...

http://www.sunnipath.com - www.sunnipath.com Note that this website is produced by Sufis. Sufis are mostly Sunni Muslims but many Muslims do not agree with some of their doctrines which are mostly in secondary issues not related to the main principles of Islam.

What is also annoying about them is that they want to get a monopoly on the Sunni understanding of Islam. So many Muslims like myself are Sunnis but have no relationship with many things that the Sufis believe in or accept.

On the other hand, some other Sunni websites are maintained by people called Salafis and Wahhabis. Wahhabis and Salafis are in a great quarrel especially with the Sufis, and like Sufis they also want to get a monopoly on the Sunni understanding of Islam.

Finally, there are people like me who are annoyed by all these groups and believe merely in the Qur'an and the authentic tradition emanating from the Messenger of Allah to our day.



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There is no deity but Allah. Muhammad is the (last) Messenger of Allah.


Posted By: Mustafaa
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 4:30am
By the way, you sound like a Muslim and if so, you already know the things that I have tried to explain here. So why haven't you been able to gather enough information about Sunnis?

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There is no deity but Allah. Muhammad is the (last) Messenger of Allah.


Posted By: Mustafaa
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 4:33am
I think we can reply to you only if we know specifically what kind of info are you searching.

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There is no deity but Allah. Muhammad is the (last) Messenger of Allah.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 4:45am

Es_Selam'un Aleykum.

 Brother,i apologize;but your words on Sufis will break some of our friend's heart in the board.Please don't mix the Turkish Sufis with the other Sufis in the world,this example is also valid for Naqshibandiis(i could not write)....our country's sects are so absurd that they may cause hallucinations on the others then we will miss wonderful muslims friends in the wrold as we have also in this board...Wa Salaam....

 



Posted By: Mustafaa
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 5:01am

I have read something from Sunnipath.com that has made me think they are not very different from the Sufis in Turkey.

Here's an example of why I don't like their ways, something I wrote somewhere else:

I wouldn't take fiqh education from Sunnipath. I once read a reply at their website that made me disagree with their understanding of fiqh.

The scholars were asked whether we can attend the lectures of women teachers at school or college. Of course, we have to look at them when we attend their classes. The answer was like "No, it's in no way permissible for a Muslim man to look at a non-mahram woman. Plain and simple." What? Do they want all of us young Muslim men to stop getting education and become hermits in mountain tops? Perhaps we must appeal to the administrations of our colleges for segregation of genders and for exclusively male teachers? That would be our petition to be kicked out of college (as extremists) and then become hermits!



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There is no deity but Allah. Muhammad is the (last) Messenger of Allah.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Mustafaa Mustafaa wrote:

I have read something from Sunnipath.com that has made me think they are not very different from the Sufis in Turkey.

Here's an example of why I don't like their ways, something I wrote somewhere else:

I wouldn't take fiqh education from Sunnipath. I once read a reply at their website that made me disagree with their understanding of fiqh.

The scholars were asked whether we can attend the lectures of women teachers at school or college. Of course, we have to look at them when we attend their classes. The answer was like "No, it's in no way permissible for a Muslim man to look at a non-mahram woman. Plain and simple." What? Do they want all of us young Muslim men to stop getting education and become hermits in mountain tops? Perhaps we must appeal to the administrations of our colleges for segregation of genders and for exclusively male teachers? That would be our petition to be kicked out of college (as extremists) and then become hermits!

Es_Selam'un Aleykum ve Rahmetullahi ve Berakatuh,

 Brother Mustafa,

First of all, i couldn't find the chance of looking at to sunnipath.com;because it is under the construction;but i know this site from the old board knowing some quotations which Sister Nausheen conducted.

 Brother,there is an interesting point can be easily realized from the topic of the site that it calls itself Sunni,this should be considered;but our issue is not this whether it is Sunni or Sufi,let's put our steps on the main issue which we need to discuss...

 Brother,i agree with the fatwa that you have given us as an example for trying to proving that Sufism is outside of Islam...

 If we look at from the science of shariat understanding the progress of giving the fatwas there are too important points shapes the fatwas.The first one is the process of Qur'an which we know from the life of the last prophet in his/it's 23 years how the happenings matured and Allah commanded this process with caring the situations,by the abilities,by the order of the responsibilities.The second important issue is the source of the fatwas shaped from the questioner's situations;the situations that where he stands inside the process of the Qur'an;in which period of the holy Qur'an he lives in,which steps he passed or where his steps on or in which points he should take the support for completing the next steps as the last prophet showed us while practicing islam...

 If we look from these two conjectures,we can easily understand the fatwa seen in sunnipath.com

 If we look from the variations i have tried to tell above;we can see these examples.First,the questioner is living inside of an serious jamaat that the aleem gives him the fatwa about the things should be the best;because he has conjectures,abilities,supporters,from that point i agree with him that it is impermissible for having a education from an opposite gender...

 But,if we change the conjectures with adding some scenarios thinking that this person is not living an jamaat or in an real islamic country and depending(with serious signs) on a education given from the associations who does not practice Islam or at least you have said that they call Muslims as extremists;then the fatwa should be in different way caring the situation inside the process of the holy Qur'an giving an permission for taking an education,lessons from the opposite genders;always caring that it should be in public giving no permission to astray...as you know some other disciplines gave fatwas in an public area taking education from an opposite gender in the safe conditions...

 The situations of the persons and their positions inside the process of the holy Qur'an is so important.If we look at the issues without caring these situation at least not caring where the fatwa given;who has given and who to given;then we can't understand the fatwas then the chaos will appear in the life of the Muslims as now we see in the sects....

 You can easily realize this statement from the hadiths traveling in the mouths;some persons use hadiths without caring where the last prophet said;in which conditions said or who to said and why to said also not caring what He said before;we see the different views coming from that chaos...I believe that sects are also appeared in this way.Someone said something from looking at the situation seen in the process of the Qur'an then someone used the same words for a situation has no connection with Qur'an and the true words said in the real conjecture then two different opinions occurred;because;the followers had chosen the first or the second they had no personal insight;because they were too lazy for searching the true answer from the holy Qur'an with caring their own situations.Qur'an gives it's medicine to hearts;but they did not because they were not carrying the heritage,they were eating!!! while the Qur'an was an universal book always helps to the persons....

 If we drink our waters from the first source caring the rules of the science of shariat then no problem will left at least no time will left for the useless secondary issues causes separations;because the first source will bring the barakah and insight for the other secondary issue solving them easily....

 Our biases takes so much place for these kind of misunderstandings;i still remember a young boy whom i told about Qur'an that he was an shia;i was knowing him as an boy who saw the truth and chosen  shiism;first i did not love him then learnt that he has no knowledge on Qur'an that he was unaware of the judgment day,it was a great shock to me..brother,so many of us are unaware from the holy Qur'an,don't think that they intentionally walk on their ways(i am not talking about Sufis')

 I don't think that there are sects in Muslims world;of course valid;but they are the sects for the third level issues;if we love each other with caring the science of shariat then no problem will left....

 With coming to the hermits;if my practice on this religion cause on me to being an hermit,i run to there;to the top of the mountains....

 When i have first meet with Islam,my parents kicked me from the society because it was a big shame from them seeing their parent walking with the people,praying,talking with the poors then i had became so lonely that i had only one friend which is an street dog(still lives) and found my self on the top of a mountain as an hermit for understanding the things happens under my first teacher;the ancient sycamore which i will show you below....i lived there three summers being as an hermit learning so many things from the jungle,sycamore,wildlife...I wish Allah will help all of us for understanding this religion,we really need help;i need too much...Amin...

 



Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 11:27am

The Ancient Sycamore(350 years old)



Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 8:40pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,

Sunnipath.com is a website primarily for fiqh matters not Ihsan in particular. Thus it is a misjudgement and misinterpretation of texts and audios on the website, if one states that they are all 'sufis'

When one mentions the word 'sufi', (as it has been done in one of the above posts) it usually connotates to all the wako suifs we can find on the internet. The scholars on sunnipath have actually caution the students against such sufi tariqas or masters.

It is also a fashion, these days within the ummah to read the quran and hadith and become an alim, without the help of those who have mastered the sciences of these lituratures.

A hadith says that the scholars are inheritors of the prophets. Which means the true scholars, and their sincere transmission of knowledge is that which will carry on the message of the prophet to the comming generations.

Even in the times of the sahaba not everyone was counseled for interpretations. eg, Abu Hurayrah (RAA) has been reported as the narrator of maximum number of hadith, but when it comes to deeper understanding of those, Ibn Abbas is referred.

If the scholars are not given their due position in the community, it is an unhealthy sign.

Another hadith that says ... allah will take away knowledge from among the people of later times, by taking away the scholars from amongst them.  .... this is happening, where most are not willing to accept and transmit knowledge from the scholars.

People are coming up with their own (and to their best of knowledge, self sufficient) understandings of Quran and sunnah.

There are scholars for hadith sciences, for tafsir, for fiqh and so on. In the same way there are scholars for the inner dimensions of islam, ie Ihsan, and these are the scholars of tassawwuf - they are not wako sufis!

Sunnipath is a great place to learn. If one is put off without proper investigation, he/she is surely missing out on some beneficial knowledge, which it offers. One can receive this from the comfort of very home, it is a great opportunity.

Through the online academy I had the pleasure of talking to some scholars (of fiqh) on this website, and i dont find them irrational in any way.

In fact what I learnt from there is .... necessity dictates exception, but the exception is valid only to the limit of the necessity.

Today, in the online sessions a sister asked about sisters reading the quran in front of brothers, and the shaykh says the above about neccesity. He explined, if the sister is not reciting in beautiful qirah, but in a restrained voice, and it is the discussion in which she is mentioning the ayahs, with her recitation, it is not wrong. He went further to say that if in a community, there is only a sister who can teach tajwid (quranic recitation) to brothers, or if there is only a brother who can teach tajwid to sisters, it is not only permissible, but necessary to do so, in order to transmit the knowledge - of course, with proper adab, and cautions.

I find the answers in the Q&A section of sunnipath very reasonable and applicble to todays times.

Being cautious and investigative about the source of knowlege, in matters of deen is a good trait. However, investigations and cautions must be careful and sincere. After all the matter of deen is not a light matter, it relates to our souls and its success in the hereafter, insha allah.

Allahumma aghnina bi halalika an haramika

wa bi fadlika amman siwak

wa ta'tika an ma'si a tika.

 

Maa salaama,

Nausheen



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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]


Posted By: Mustafaa
Date Posted: 14 March 2005 at 4:51am

As-salamu alaykum,

I didn't say Sufis are outside the fold of Islam or anything like that. I am only annoyed by many of their ways and attitudes. Not only Sufis, but also many other Islamic-group members have broken my heart very badly and haughtily. And that can't be just a coincidence. The Sufi or Wahhabi, etc. doctrines that they believe in often cause them to be rude and sometimes ruthless to other Muslims.



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There is no deity but Allah. Muhammad is the (last) Messenger of Allah.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 14 March 2005 at 2:38pm

Nausheen Wrote:

"Even in the times of the sahaba not everyone was counseled for interpretations. eg, Abu Hurayrah (RAA) has been reported as the narrator of maximum number of hadith, but when it comes to deeper understanding of those, Ibn Abbas is referred. "

 Es_Selam'un Aleykum...

  This is the table seen from our side,it is unacceptable;if we look from the inner side with caring the acute points of science of shariat,we can clearly see from the writings of the Qur'an that the Meccan and Madinan society of Islam was not  depending on an absent system.It was an organic group that bringing all of the synergy including the muslims who are the soldiers,who are the imams,who are the aleems,who are specialists in their own areas at the same time with claiming any priority between each other.When we separated this wonderful system with saying that;everyone can't be a aleem;can't be an imam;can't be an soldier,can't be an scientist,who is your teacher?,who are you?,you can't live without depending to us;with forgetting the Allah's name as Rabb;forgetting the connections between these points as being an efficient muslim that carries the ability as we also saw this dirty game in the time renaissance..then the evil succeeded on the way with putting the ideas on the minds of the muslims as an separation;because it was the way of the success which the last prophet and his companions showed us to walk with an deep dimension of discovering all of the abilities a human being can have.This is an dirty game putting the Muslims in adjectives with ending their real adjective being as an full efficient Muslim teaching them eating the heritage without not reminding that they can add something,carry this religion to the next steps with caring the objective references of the holy Qur'an......

...Qur'an's doors are all open to the everyone whether he has a scholar or not;claiming that everyone should has  a scholar will be wrong in the universality of Qur'an.Qur'an is an living book, not an history book that can be memorized in the minds;scholars are the second hands in achieving to the universality of the Qur'an...you can find so many persons in the world being as an person who memorized the fiqh books,tafseers;but you can't find so much person carrying the heritage without eating it....

 Subhan'Allah,what a great religion we have that we have been eating it from an long time and it is not finished yet with our appointments to this religion opposing to it's soul....Wa Salaam.....

 

 



Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 March 2005 at 8:05pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah,

In a hadith it has been said that if one interprets the Quran on his own, without having the knowledge, of what Allah has intended from that portion, he is in error, even if he is correct.

This is a very serious caution against interpreting the Quran. because Quran is the word of Allah. Thus if one says "the quran says such and such" it means  he is saying "Allah says such and such". And quoting allah without proper knowledge is a serious offense against the creator.

One the other hand reflection upon the Quranic verses is a duty of every muslim, when he reads the quran. You can share your reflection with believers, and even discuss these, pertaining to your own conditions, and this is all permissible.

There are levels of meanings in the quran. you may read a verse and it strikes you in a certain way on one occasion, and when you read it again, it will inspire you of yet another dimension in it. Whenever a believer reads the Quran he is guided thru it. Because allah has said that this is a guidance to the believers.

Interpretation is more encompassing. It is more universal in meaning, applicaple to a general public in varied circumstances. Above all interpretation is done with proper knowledge of what rasul allah has said about those verses, and how the sahaba had understood them. The way nabi sallallahu alaihe wassallam had understood and taught the quran, is the perfect way. Beacuse he is the perfect exemplar.

Reflection may apply to you in particular, in your particular state. Furhter, it will deepen, as you grow in understanding of the religion, and move closer to Allah. Thus your reflection is subject to improvement till you attain perfection.

Therefore, the understanding of the quran cannot be perfected by mere reflection alone. It needs to be understood as it was lived by the prophet, and his companions.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen



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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 March 2005 at 8:24pm
Deducing rulings or meanings from the Qur�an
Answered by Sidi Hamza Karamali    

Can regular Muslims who are not scholars read the translation of the Quran and deduce/conclude from it? if not, how are we to benefit from the meaning of the Quran? or should we not read the translation at all?

In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate

Knowing the meaning of what one is reciting is undoubtedly praiseworthy because it helps one read the Qur'an with focus of mind presence of heart. Without knowing what one is reciting, it is difficult to bring into practice verses of the Qur'an that describe the believers as "increasing in faith" (Anfal:2) or "shivering" (Zumar:23) when verses of the Qur'an are recited to them. Reading a good tafsir is especially helpful in this regard. Probably the best tafsir available in English is Ma`arif ul-Qur'an, by the late Mufti Muhammad Shafi` (may Allah have mercy on him), available from http://www.alrashad.com/ - www.alrashad.com .

As for deducing particular fiqh rulings from the Qur'an, this is the domain of specialists. If one needs to know Allah's ruling regarding a particular aspect of one's daily life--such as the prayer, the fast, or other matters--one must refer to the scholars of fiqh, not to one's own understanding of the Qur'an. Allah told us in the Qur'an, "Ask those who know well if you know not."

A good article to read on this topic is: http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm - Would you advise individuals to study hadith from al-Bukhari and Muslim on their own? , available from Mas`ud Khan's site.

And Allah knows best.

Hamza.

Source:Sunnipath.com



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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 15 March 2005 at 11:47am

Es_Selam'un Aleykum ve Rahmetullahi ve Berakatuh Sister Nausheen,

 I'll tuun back to the topic as soon as  i have found myself,today i am really so tired to discuss.Also,Jazak Allah Khair for your articles which show me that i did not take the decision with my own tight perspective,i see the support with your articles to the soul of my message,especially the last one,Alhamdulilah.Also,i did not understand why we did not meet on the same point while your articles are giving an objective reference to the issue,also while we were talking on the same language.i'll turn back as soon as possible for the full explanations to step by step;i wish you did not take the offense from the explanations i have made in the thread,they all have an meaning;not an air,so many of them has no connection with your replies,just a little bit which we will discuss on from the serious examples...Wa Salaam...



Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 15 March 2005 at 4:05pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rehman ir rahim,

Wa laikum assalam wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu Brother Suleyman

Originally posted by Suleyman Suleyman wrote:

Es_Selam'un Aleykum ve Rahmetullahi ve Berakatuh Sister Nausheen,

 I'll tuun back to the topic as soon as  i have found myself,today i am really so tired to discuss.Also,Jazak Allah Khair for your articles which show me that i did not take the decision with my own tight perspective,i see the support with your articles to the soul of my message,especially the last one,Alhamdulilah.Also,i did not understand why we did not meet on the same point while your articles are giving an objective reference to the issue,also while we were talking on the same language.i'll turn back as soon as possible for the full explanations to step by step;i wish you did not take the offense from the explanations i have made in the thread,they all have an meaning;not an air,so many of them has no connection with your replies,just a little bit which we will discuss on from the serious examples...Wa Salaam...

It is alright brother, even I am quite busy, till the end of this week. I think I did not read your post as carefully as I should.

Insha allah I will tend to it more closely when my mind is less occupied.

I would wish to respond to Mustafa as well. Dont want him to think am ignoring his last message insha allah.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen



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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 20 March 2005 at 2:37am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

[QUOTE]sunnipath.com Note that this website is produced by Sufis. Sufis are mostly Sunni Muslims but many Muslims do not agree with some of their doctrines which are mostly in secondary issues not related to the main principles of Islam. What is also annoying about them is that they want to get a monopoly on the Sunni understanding of Islam. So many Muslims like myself are Sunnis but have no relationship with many things that the Sufis believe in or accept[/QUOTE]

Sunni path is not a sufi site claiming that it is shows the level of investigation you have carried out and how inacurate your claim really is.

It is a Fiqh bassed site answering questions from the hannafi and Shafii madhabs. All the answers given on that site are according to those madhabs. Sufism is the science of Ihsan which is an islamic science seperate from Fiqh.

All the answers on the site are according to traditional islamic scholars ie the four madhhabs they are not giving there own personel opinions these are the rulling of the madhahabs.

I think you should properly understand what sufism/tasawuf is and its place in islam rather than simply saying "this group made me angry so i dont like them" this is an unaccptable approach to understanding anything let alone an established islamic science ie tassawuf.

Tasawuf is the science developed by the scholars to teach moral excelence or rather Ihsan. It is a well established science rooted in the quran and sunnah simply becouse there somegroups out there who call them selves sufi and have wierd practices does not mean this is the normal behaviour of every person who practices this science.

Please dont generalise, look to the traditional schools of tasawuuf then judge, becouse all of the great scholrs of islam practised tasawwuf how else could they achieve the high moral standards.

Ibn `Abidin relates in his al Durr al mukhtar that Imam Abu Hanifa said: "If it were not for two years, I would have perished." Ibn `Abidin comments:

For two years he accompanied Sayyidina Ja`far al-Sadiq and he acquired the spiritual knowledge that made him a gnostic in the Way... Abu `Ali Daqqaq (Imam Qushayri's shaykh) received the path from Abu al-Qasim al-Nasirabadi, who received it from al Shibli, who received it from Sari al-Saqati who received it from al Ma`ruf al Karkhi, who received it from Dawud at Ta'i, who received the knowledge, both the external and the internal, from the Imam Abi Hanifa.

Ibn `Abidin, Hashiyat radd al-muhtar `ala al-durr al-mukhtar 1:43.


Just as Abu Hanifa and Sufyan al-Thawri implicitly asserted the necessity to follow the Sufi path for acquiring perfection, Imam Malik explicitly enjoined tasawwuf as a duty of scholars in his statement:

"He who practices Tasawwuf without learning Sacred Law corrupts his faith, while he who learns Sacred Law without practicing Tasawwuf corrupts himself. Only he who combines the two proves true."
It is related by the muhaddith Ahmad Zarruq (d. 899), the hafiz `Ali al-Qari al-Harawi (d. 1014), the muhaddiths `Ali ibn Ahmad al `Adawi (d. 1190) and Ibn `Ajiba (d. 1224), and others.


Al-hafiz al-Suyuti relates in Ta'yid al-haqiqa al-`aliyya that Imam al-Shafi`i said:

I accompanied the Sufis and received from them but three words: their statement that time is a sword: if you do not cut it, it cuts you; their statement that if you do not keep your ego busy with truth it will keep you busy with falsehood; their statement that deprivation is immunity. http://www.sunnah.org/tasawwuf/scholar5.htm#1 - 1

The muhaddith al-`Ajluni also relates in his book Kashf al khafa wa muzil al albas that Imam Shafi`i said:

Three things in this world have been made lovely to me: avoiding affectation, treating people kindly, and following the way of tasawwuf. http://www.sunnah.org/tasawwuf/scholar5.htm#2 - 2
1 Suyuti, Ta'yid al-haqiqa al-`aliyya p. 15
2 al-`Ajluni, Kashf al-khafa wa muzil al-albas 1:341 (#1089).

I will not make this post any longer but i can easily quote more islamic scholars on this subject. The situation is as Imam Malik said those who practice Tassawuf with out knowing Fiqh are those who have been corupted and we see these people all over the muslim world claiming to be sufi's.

From Imam Maliks words we can also see the standard of scholars at Sunnipath.com they are the ones who have combined the two.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: unity1
Date Posted: 20 March 2005 at 9:28am

Asalam Aalaikum

Dear Brothers

It is difficult to trace the exact date when Shias and Sunnis seperated from each other but it is an established fact that the history of Shias and Sunnis is full of civil conflicts.

Their are several differences between Shias and Sunnis ,some of those differences are as follows:


1) Shias unlike Sunnis donot accept the Caliphate of the 1st three rightly guided Caliphes (Leaders or Successors),those rightly guided Caliphes are :

a)Abu Bakr(Ra) who became the 1st Caliph of Islam after the demise of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

b)Umar(Ra) who became the next Caliph of Islam after the death of Abu Bakr(Ra).

c)Usman(Ra) who became the next Caliph of Islam after the death of Umar(Ra).

The 4th Caliph of Islam was Ali(Ra) on whose Caliphate both Shias and Sunnis agreed.

Shias claim that after the demise of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), Ali(Ra) should have become the 1st Caliph of Islam not Abu Bakr(Ra) since according to their concept, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) before his demise appointed Ali(Ra) as his successor and they support their claim from Sunni Sources of Traditions when required. But Sunnis unlike Shias donot believe in such concepts, they believe that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) before his demise didnot declare and appoint any one as his successor and the matter of successorship(Leadership) should be settled by mutual consultation(Shurah).

Shias believe that Ali(Ra) was appointed as a spiritual Imam(Leader) of the Muslims by Prophet(pbuh) on the wish of Allah(swt) and donot believe in the Concept of mutual consultation (Shura) only on this matter.
According to their understanding and viewpoint a chain of Imamate started right after the demise of Prophet(pbuh) which will continue till the day of judgment.

Their Imams are 12 in number ,starting from Imam Ali(Ra) and continuing till Imam Mehdi who is the last (12th)Imam of Shias and all these 12 Imams came from the family of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).Please note that not all Shias believe in these 12 Imams, only Imami(Jaffri)Shias believe in these 12 Imams, other Shias have differences of opinion on the number of Imams.

According to their doctrine Imam Mehdi went into occultation(Ghayba) 1000s of years ago and will return before the day of judgment to wipe out evil and injustice from this world.

Sunnis on contrary donot believe in this doctrine ,they believe that after the death of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh),the matter of leadership went into the hands of the Muslim Ummah which should be decided by the Muslims through mutual consultation(Shura), in other words we can say that this matter of leadership is political one for Sunnis.


Shias practice Matam(Self beating and mourning). Shias have been practicing Matam for Centuries on the death of Imam Hussain(Ra) the 3rd Imam of Shias and the members of his family.
They perform Matam to show their love for Imam Hussain(Ra) and his family.

Sunnis on contrary donot practice Matam and hold it haram because such acts of self beating and mourning are not supported by any authentic sources of Islam and these acts were performed during the days of ignorance.

Shias practice Mutah(Temperory Marriage Contract). This kind of contract marriage is only practiced in Shia sect, no other sect in Islam allows such practice.

Mutah(Temperory Marriage Contract) means that a man marries a women for a specific period ,eg for 2 ,3 or 4 years upon which both partners agree.

Sunnis donot practice Mutah (Temperory Marriage Contract) and consider it against Shariah, they only believe in Permanent Marriage Contract that takes place between man and women which is generally practiced everywhere.

I hope some of these points that I have mentioned clearly show the picture of the difference between Shias and Sunnis.

If you are interested about the details of this history.

then study the link :


www.fordham.edu


Regards,

-------------

who call themselves superior are actually inferior in the eyes of Allah.Those who call themselves slaves of Allah are superior not only in the eyes of Allah but also superior in the eyes of man.


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 21 March 2005 at 6:27am

Bismillah,

JazakAllahkhayr!

 



-------------
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: Aliya
Date Posted: 25 March 2005 at 7:36am

Bismillah

Salaamun alaykum

One of the best sites to learn about shia beliefs is http://www.al-islam.org - www.al-islam.org you can find pretty much anything you want to know about shias on that site. http://www.dartabligh.org/ - http://www.dartabligh.org/  has a lot of books available online too.  I know some sunnis who really like http://www.yanabi.com - www.yanabi.com  but I don't know much about it so if others here do, please comment.

Wa Salaam



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 26 March 2005 at 2:41am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamau alaikum

I thought http://www.yanabi.com/ - www.yanabi.com was a shia site but could not confirm it since the discussion board seems to be sunni at least in a lot of the sections, the board has so many different topics i get a head ache just looking at the list. Generaly though i like the site, the mutlimedia section is one of the best i have seen has manye xcelent lectures by people like Shakh Hamzah Yusuf.

-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Aliya
Date Posted: 28 March 2005 at 11:23am

Bismillah

Salaamun alaykum. No yanabi is a sunni site.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 06 April 2005 at 4:47pm
Bismillah ir-Rahmaan ir-Raheem

Praise be to Allah Lord of all the Worlds!

I am neither Sunni nor Shiite nor subscribe to any tenants that
are categorized as a "sect" in Islam. allah says to not divide
ourselves which also includes having names additonal to
being
Muslim i.e Sunni, Shiite Sufi e.t.c. Though many of you my
noble brethren may subscribe to such thoughts just a friendly
reminder that we must stand before Allah on the Last Day an
explain why we are who we are and why we blong to a sect for
Muhamad (Sallah wa Alayhi Wa Salaam) was neither Sunni,
nor Shiite nor Sufi. If so what part of this Islam did I miss?
So stress the utter importance for reform.


Posted By: jalillah
Date Posted: 12 April 2005 at 10:15am
[QUOTE=Shamiala]

Salam brothers and sisters.

i have recently been doing some research regaarding sects in Islam in particular the Sunni and the Shiite. when doing my research i have managed to gather alot of literature with regard to Shiite beliefs. i have not fully identified what the Sunni's believe in yet. if anybody could guide me as to any books or internet websites that may be of use please let me know.

Thank you

Any help will be much appreciated

Allah Hafiz

[jalillah/QUOTE's] I have no books for shiite or sunni's but one thing I could say is this its mention in one of the sura's let me first start by saying... bissmillah-hirrahman-nirrahim..allah for give me if I make mistake or error in memorising this verse I'm about to say...as follow that their will be one of the same faith of which they will wage war with one another,shed blood against each other...something along these sentence.. but my understanding of allah words  is what allah prevails in his  marvelous Quran..is the sunna and his surrah's nothing more or nothing less.. the  extra's is optional... sorry I know is in english...inshaallah I hope I'll be able to say it in arabic and memorize by verse.. by the way I thouht to just mention one more thing also allah said that there is 70 thousand pios muslim only one will enter jannah...

-------------
May Allah Bless those who seek the truth......Allah Stands Alone in truth..


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 12 April 2005 at 11:28pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum Jalillah

visit http://www.almadinamasjid.org/ - http://www.almadinamasjid.org/ there you will find

bullet

http://www.almadinamasjid.org/SATISFYING%20THE%20NEED.doc - bullet

http://www.almadinamasjid.org/Saheefa.doc -

bullet

http://www.almadinamasjid.org/Nawawi.htm - bullet

http://www.almadinamasjid.org/Al-Fiqh%20Al-Akbar.doc - http://www.almadinamasjid.org/SATISFYING%20THE%20NEED.doc - is one of the traditional Sunni aqeedah but this work is long if you would like a sumarised version visit http://alghazzali.org/display/faith - http://alghazzali.org/display/faith , they also have Ashari Aqeedah another traditional sunni aqeedah, you will notice the differences are very little.

If this is not what you are looking for let me know and insha allah i can help.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 12 May 2005 at 3:59pm

To Israfil

Salam ala kum,

I respect your viewpoint, and would like to clarify one point and present my humble words.

Some sincere Muslims may ask" Why to the Shia seperate themselves, why don't they just say " We are Muslims, and that's all!" The main reason relates to the following issue.

(I apologize for the lengthy list of narrators, but I'm sure some will object to the following , and I want to establish that I am not making it up from myself)

Allah, the most Glorified and High says: "Allah wishes to remove all impurity from you, O members of the household, and to purify you completely" (33:33).

" The ahl al-sunna wa'l-Jama'a maintain that this verse was revealed for the wives of the Prophet (S.A.W.). They derive their proof from the context of the preceding and following verses. According to their claims, Allah therefore removed impurity from the wives of the Prophet and purified them completely.

Among them are those who add to the [list of the] wives of the Prophet, 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn. But the truth, according to what has been transmitted, as well as according to reasoning, logic and history, refutes this explanation. [This is] because the ahl al-sunna narrate in their Sahihs that the verse was revealed regarding five people namely: Muhammad, 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn, and that the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) identified them and his noble self as being referred to by the noble verse when he gathered 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn with him under the cloak. He said: "O Allah! These are my household, so cleanse them of all impurity and purify them completely".

This narration has been reported by a large majority of Sunni scholars. I mention [some of] them:

1. Muslim in his Sahih, in "The Chapter on the Merits of the Prophet's household": Vol. 2, p. 368.

2. Al- Tirmidhi in his Sahih; Vol. 5, p. 30.

3. Al-Musnad, Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal; Vol. 1, p. 330.

4. Al-Mustadrak, al- Hakim; Vol. 3, p. 123.

5. Al-Khas'ais, Imam al-Nasa'i; p. 49

6. Talkhis, al-Dhahabi; Vol. 2, p. 150.

7. Mu'jam, al-Tabrani; Vol. 1, p. 65.

8. Shawahid al-Tanzil, Hakim al-Haskani; Vol. 2, p. 11.

9. Al-Bukhari in his Greater History; Vol. 1, p. 69.

10. Al-Isaba, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani; Vol. 2, p. 502.

11. Tadhkira al-Khawas, Ibn al-Jawzi; p. 233.

12. Tafsir of al-Fakhr al-Razi; Vol. 2, p. 700.

13. The Fountains of Love, al-Qanduzi al-Hanafi; p. 107.

14. Manaqib of al-Khawarizmi, p. 23.

15. Al-Sira of al-Halabi, Vol. l3, p. 212.

16. Al-Sira of al-Dihlaniya; Vol. 3, p. 329.

17. Asad al-Ghaba, Ibn al-Athir; Vol. 2, p. 12.

18. Tafsir of al-Tabari; Vol. 22, p. 6.

19. Al-Dur al-Manthur, al-Suyuti; Vol. 5, p. 198.

20. Ta'rikh of Ibn Asakir; Vol. 1, p. 185.

21. Tafsir al-Kashshaf , al-Zamakhshari; Vol. 1, p. 193

22. Ahkam al-Qur'an , Ibn al-Arabi; Vol. 2, p. 166.

23. Tafsir al-Qurtubi, Vol. 14, p. 182.

24. Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa of Ibn Hajar, p. 85.

25. Al-Isti'ab, Ibn Abd al-Barr; Vol. 3, p. 37.

26. Al-'Aqd al-Farid, Ibn 'Abd Rabbih; Vol. 4, p. 311

27. Muntakhab Kanz al-'Ummal; Vol. 5, p. 96.

28. Masabih al-Sunna, al-Baghawi, Vol. 2, p. 278.

29. Asbab al-Nuzul, al-Wahidi; p. 203.

30. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir; Vol. 3, p. 483.

SOURCE: http://www.al-islam.org/ask/3.html#1 - http://www.al-islam.org/ask/3.html#1

YES, This is a lifted from Al-Islam.org, however, it is very important to understand the difference here (and the real souce of conflict).

The Quran and the prophet do not say of any other group that they have been cleansed from all sin, except the Ahl al Bayt.

This is why the Shia give their allegiance to them without question, while our Sunni brothers and sisters do not. This is the crux of the issue. If our non-Shia brothers and sisters in Islam would follow the orders of the prophet and Quran on this point, there would be not reason for any Fitna.

Our Sunni brothers and sisters say that the Shia are the ones who supported the (acording to the Sunni) the Fourth Rightly Guided Khalipate when he was accused by some of the companions of complicity or participation in the killing of Uthman. In reality, the shia (in the sense of the meaning of this verse) existed even during the lifetime of the prophet, and recognized Imam Ali (a.s.) as the rightful successor to the prophet (a.s.) during the prophet (a.s.)'s lifetime.

This is why we call ourselves Shia, which is shorthand for Shia of Ahl al-Bait or Shia of Ali (which are equivelent for obvious reasons).

Salam



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: unity1
Date Posted: 14 May 2005 at 12:54am

Comments on the post of Brother Ali Zaki.

I have presented my comments on your post , my post is in bold text and your post is in simple text.


Originally posted by Ali Zaki Ali Zaki wrote:

To <SPAN =bold>Israfil</SPAN>


Salam ala kum,



You Said:

I respect your viewpoint, and would like to clarify one point and present my humble words.



Comment:
Thank you for your compliment, you are welcome to clarify our misconceptions.





You Said:

Some sincere Muslims may ask" Why to the Shia seperate themselves, why don't they just say " We are Muslims, and that's all!" The main reason relates to the following issue.



Comment:
First of all ,I would like to clarify that their is no such verse of the Qur'an which claims any muslim or any group of muslims to seperate themselves from the mainbody of muslims and on the other hand Prophet(pbuh) has mentioned the importance of the unity of muslims,he is reported to have said that "muslim Ummah is just like a body, when any part of the body gets injured or hurt ,the entire body suffers and feels the pain.
In the similar way, if any single muslim in the entire Muslim Ummah gets hurt ,the other muslims feel the pain and suffer."

Allah(swt) and His Messenger gives great priority to the unity of Muslim Ummah since our strength and progress lies in our unity.





You Said:

(I apologize for the lengthy list of narrators, but I'm sure some will object to the following , and I want to establish that I am not making it up from myself)


Allah, the most Glorified and High says: "Allah wishes to remove all impurity from you, O members of the household, and to purify you completely" (33:33).

" The ahl al-sunna wa'l-Jama'a maintain that this verse was revealed for the wives of the Prophet (S.A.W.). They derive their proof from the context of the preceding and following verses. According to their claims, Allah therefore removed impurity from the wives of the Prophet and purified them completely.

Comment:

If anyone reads the verses that preceed and follow this perticular verse of the Qur'an(33:33)with an unbiased mind,he or she without any hesitation and doubt will agree with the fact that this verse of purification(33:33) refers to the wives of the Prophet(pbuh).A family of any person cannot exclude the wife ,since wife plays not only the role of a wife but also a role of a mother and the status of a mother is 2nd highest in the family after father.
Their are two approaches that people take while reading and understanding the Qur'an, one is a biased approach and the other one is an unbiased approach. Whenever it comes to proving and justifying their point and belief,Shias unfortunately load their pre-concieved opinions and interpretation on the Qur'anic verses inorder to convince others of their beliefs instead of using an unbiased mind to understand those verses.
By the former approach, one not only understands the verses from a limited mind but also damages and violates the true purpose and messege of those verses which is I am sorry to say brother is typically an evil act. Allah(swt) has revealed the Qur'an for the guidance of entire mankind ,He has not revealed Qur'an so that one can load his point of views and interpretations on it and take certain verses out of context to prove their point.





You Said:

Among them are those who add to the [list of the] wives of the Prophet, 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn. But the truth, according to what has been transmitted, as well as according to reasoning, logic and history, refutes this explanation. [This is] because the ahl al-sunna narrate in their Sahihs that the verse was revealed regarding five people namely: Muhammad, 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn, and that the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) identified them and his noble self as being referred to by the noble verse when he gathered 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn with him under the cloak. He said: "O Allah! These are my household, so cleanse them of all impurity and purify them completely".

This narration has been reported by a large majority of Sunni scholars. I mention [some of] them:

1. Muslim in his Sahih, in "The Chapter on the Merits of the Prophet's household": Vol. 2, p. 368.

2. Al- Tirmidhi in his Sahih; Vol. 5, p. 30.

3. Al-Musnad, Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal; Vol. 1, p. 330.

4. Al-Mustadrak, al- Hakim; Vol. 3, p. 123.

5. Al-Khas'ais, Imam al-Nasa'i; p. 49

6. Talkhis, al-Dhahabi; Vol. 2, p. 150.

7. Mu'jam, al-Tabrani; Vol. 1, p. 65.

8. Shawahid al-Tanzil, Hakim al-Haskani; Vol. 2, p. 11.

9. Al-Bukhari in his Greater History; Vol. 1, p. 69.

10. Al-Isaba, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani; Vol. 2, p. 502.

11. Tadhkira al-Khawas, Ibn al-Jawzi; p. 233.

12. Tafsir of al-Fakhr al-Razi; Vol. 2, p. 700.

13. The Fountains of Love, al-Qanduzi al-Hanafi; p. 107.

14. Manaqib of al-Khawarizmi, p. 23.

15. Al-Sira of al-Halabi, Vol. l3, p. 212.

16. Al-Sira of al-Dihlaniya; Vol. 3, p. 329.

17. Asad al-Ghaba, Ibn al-Athir; Vol. 2, p. 12.

18. Tafsir of al-Tabari; Vol. 22, p. 6.

19. Al-Dur al-Manthur, al-Suyuti; Vol. 5, p. 198.

20. Ta'rikh of Ibn Asakir; Vol. 1, p. 185.

21. Tafsir al-Kashshaf , al-Zamakhshari; Vol. 1, p. 193

22. Ahkam al-Qur'an , Ibn al-Arabi; Vol. 2, p. 166.

23. Tafsir al-Qurtubi, Vol. 14, p. 182.

24. Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa of Ibn Hajar, p. 85.

25. Al-Isti'ab, Ibn Abd al-Barr; Vol. 3, p. 37.

26. Al-'Aqd al-Farid, Ibn 'Abd Rabbih; Vol. 4, p. 311

27. Muntakhab Kanz al-'Ummal; Vol. 5, p. 96.

28. Masabih al-Sunna, al-Baghawi, Vol. 2, p. 278.

29. Asbab al-Nuzul, al-Wahidi; p. 203.

30. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir; Vol. 3, p. 483.


SOURCE: http://www.al-islam.org/ask/3.html#1 - http://www.al-islam.org/ask/3.html#1


YES, This is a lifted from Al-Islam.org, however, it is very important to understand the difference here (and the real souce of conflict).



Comment:
You are most welcome to quote the references from any sources of tradition you like. I have visited the link www.al-islam.org ,and I donot agree with them completely. I have also asked the Scholars of this site some questions regarding Shias beliefs but so far they have not answered any single question of mine explicitly.Can you please explain me how does these references prove your point of view?






You Said:

The Quran and the prophet do not say of any other group that they have been cleansed from all sin, except the Ahl al Bayt.



Comment:
I donot understand how does this verse of purification(33:33) prove your point of view regarding the progeny of Ahl'l Bait? According to shiasm, the 12 Imams are infallible since the task they were assigned required them to be infallible and their duty is to implement the Law of Allah(swt) on the face of the earth.
Now my question is that on what basis do you hold Hazrat Bibi Fatimah(Ra) as infallible since she was neither a Prophet nor an Imam?





You Said:

This is why the Shia give their allegiance to them without question, while our Sunni brothers and sisters do not. This is the crux of the issue. If our non-Shia brothers and sisters in Islam would follow the orders of the prophet and Quran on this point, there would be not reason for any Fitna.



Comment:
According to my understanding and knowledge ,the fitna can end only when Shias and Sunnis both sit together and discuss the main cause of their differences in the light of Qur'an instead of accusing each other.




You Said:

Our Sunni brothers and sisters say that the Shia are the ones who supported the (acording to the Sunni) the Fourth Rightly Guided Khalipate when he was accused by some of the companions of complicity or participation in the killing of Uthman. In reality, the shia (in the sense of the meaning of this verse) existed even during the lifetime of the prophet, and recognized Imam Ali (a.s.) as the rightful successor to the prophet (a.s.)�during the prophet (a.s.)'s lifetime.


This is why we call ourselves Shia, which is shorthand for Shia of Ahl al-Bait or Shia of Ali (which are equivelent for obvious reasons).



Comment:
The successorship of Prophet(pbuh) is an issue which has been under debate for Centuries. If Imam Ali(Ra) was truely the successor of Prophet(pbuh), then he would not have stated that he doesnot find himself capable for the post of Caliphate. Imagine an Infallible Imam saying that he is not capable for the post of Caliphate.

I hope I have made myself clear.

Regards


Salam



-------------

who call themselves superior are actually inferior in the eyes of Allah.Those who call themselves slaves of Allah are superior not only in the eyes of Allah but also superior in the eyes of man.


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 16 May 2005 at 6:13am

Salam unity 1,

Please reflect on the following verse from the Holy Quran

"He it is who has sent down upon thee the Book; in it are clear verses (muhkamat) , which are the mother of the Book, and others are ambiguous (mutashabihat). those in whose heart is sickness follow the ambiguous of them, seeking dissent and seeking their ta'wil, and none knows their ta'wil except Allah and those firmly grounded in knowledge. they say. 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord' ; yet none remembers but men possessed of minds."

(Surat Al'Imran, v.7)

According to the Shia, the phrase "those firmly grounded in knowledge" refers to the the Prophet (a.s.) and the Holy Imams from his household. However, even if you do not except this (and the famous Hadith which says "I leave among you two weighty things, The Holy Quran and my Ahl'al Bait, these two shall never part from eachother...), we must be very careful in doing our own tafseer of Quran. As far as I know, neither of us are religious scholars, nor we would consider ourselves to be among those "firmly grounded in knowledge" even in the common understanding of the term.

I have to admit, that I am becoming frustrated with the responses to my postings. I have invested considerable time and effort in documenting my sources of opinion as a courtesy to others and to allow a serious academic discussion. On the other hand if you review the responses to my posting, they can be catogrized as two types.

1.) Questions which are asked for the purpose of trying to cast doubt on the validity of my assertions.

2.) Non-scholarly opinion and speculation regarding the true meaning and interpretation of verses from the Holy Quran, Hadith and historical events.

As a courtesy, I would appreciate the following information in your responses.

1.) Instead of trying to "chip away" at my arguments based on you own opinions, please propose an ALTERNATIVE interpretation. This alternative should consider the points that I have made and offer another explanation that is not already addressed, or expand on something that has already been addressed. To just simply do your own tafseer of a verse and say that "it is obvious to anyone" is not what I am humbly asking for.

2.) PLEASE PROVIDE REFERENCES. All Muslims respect a scholarly opinion, and I am interested in hearing from those who are familiar with the works of scholars who have a different point of view.

If a person feels that his/her own knowledge is sufficient and that he does not need to resort to the guidance of knowledgeable persons, then the result is that his opinions will surely be a source only of misguidance to himself and others.



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: nadir
Date Posted: 16 May 2005 at 8:42am

 

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

If I may offer my (Islamically) inexperienced voice to the discussion�..

 

 

I have had Christian friends of mine question the crescent some Muslim�s use on the top of Masjids, & Minarets etc.

 

Their questions (in part) emanated from our discussions with regards to the symbolism used in Christianity (ie the cross), & what it signifies (ie Isa (AS) been crucified for all �your� sins�.. well I might as well relax, & sin as much as I can then!!!).

 

 

If I may politely bring to (lifelong) Muslim�s attention, the fact that many people (of ignorance) actually think Islam is the worship of some pagan moon god, as a direct result of the symbolisation they see!!!!! I have only read a little into where & when the crescent first started to be used, but the main point here is that, it (the crescent) plays no role of importance in Islam (the worship of Allah [SWT]), but does play a role in turning people away from Islam.

 

Small & unnecessary additions to Islamic �culture� such as the above, are widespread within modern Islamic culture. Self beating and mourning is just one of these.

 

The additions (that occur in many forms, & in many �sects�) may not necessarily (on an individual level) impede the participating people�s worship of Allah (SWT), but those actions certainly do effect how others (whether Muslim or not) perceive �their� religion, & hence have an indirect effect on how those very people are treated (although fearing Allah [SWT] should be sufficient reason to cease).

 

 

Suleyman, you are able to act as a witness for me on this topic, as you asked me to put something down that was unnecessary, as far as my worship of Allah (SWT) is concerned (ie changing the colour of my words, so as not to irritate your eyes).

 

I could have said no go away, I like doing it this way, but instead I gave up something that was fond to me, for the sake of the whole. I realised that the action emanated from my habitual tendencies (pride/ego), & was not compulsory (within my religion), hence I was able to lay it down, even if initially there was some � resistance.

 

Maybe I am asking too much for lifelong Muslim�s to learn from me?!

But that won�t stop me from pointing these things out!

 

Wasalaam

nadir     

 

 


Posted By: new_muslimah
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 1:17pm

dear brothers and sisters Salamun alaykum.I am a ne-revert to Islam after a long period of soul searching and reading. Islam is the most beautiful message of GOD.

After reading in-depth , after what happened after the demise of Holy Prophet (PBUH) , i concluded, that IMAM ALI is the rightly appointed successor to Holy Prophet and the followers of Imam Ali , have thus direct link to Holy Prophet.

Look at what Muawiyah did to Imam Ali....hundreds of people killed in Siffeen in the war against the RIGHTLY Appointed successor of Prophet. But I am amazed how my Sunni brothers and sisters just ignore this huge fact and still respect this person (muawiya)

Even if you look at the world today, True Islam is being represented by the teachings of Islamic Revolution in iran.

We have same book, same Allah, same Kaaba, same Prophet, but unfortunately, i have seen Salafis, curse and swear and label as Kafir 'other muslims". I have not met a single Shia brother or sister who will call others Kafir.

All this has led me to study Shia school deeply and I conlcuded that SHIAISM is the mainstream and the direct connection to Holy Prophet.

Another mind-boggling fact :

SON of Imam Ali, hussain gave up everything in karabala , when he was killed by Yazeed son of Muawiya.

But HOW MANY SUNNIS do we know who even respect and consider Imam hussain as a HERO of islam and condemn the killer army of yazid?

Despite the difference my shia -contacts urge me to join hands with other muslims based on our common points.

I just want to urge every one to be open and fair minded.

Long live Muslim Unity.

 





-------------
Allah is the Light of the Universe.


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 1:32pm

Salam Sister,

I'm sorry I don't have time (right now) to provide an adequate reply to your comments, however, I do want to say one thing in defense of our Sunni brothers.

In Egypt (a predominately Sunni country), you maybe surprised to know that there is a famous Masjid dedicated to Imam Hussien(a.s.). I believe it is in Cairo (but I may be mistaken). In fact, our Sunni brothers believe that the blessed head of our Imam is buried there. Tens of thousands our our Egyptian (mostly) Sunni brothers visit this mosque and weap over the tragedy of Karbala and curse the killers of the grandson of the Holy Prophet (a.s.)

In fact, most Sunni brothers do recognize that Yazid was an oppressor, and that what happened at Karbala was a tragedy. What the Sunnis say, however, is that the Shia go "too far" and are "too extreme" in morning for Imam Hussien (a.s.). While this is true in some cases (such as those who injure themselves), in general, this is a result of the suppression of the importance of the Imams by the Caliphates who came after the prophet because of their fear of being exposed as usurpers.

Maybe this issue is more important for one of our Sunni brothers to elaborate on (or maybe disagree with).



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: new_muslimah
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 1:45pm

salams

Well, thanks for the information. I maybe have been biased by what i saw . I have some pakistani sunni friends , who consider Shia -kafirs.

similar is the deal with the brothers from saudi.

Again I stress today, the enemies of islam would love for us to attack each other.



-------------
Allah is the Light of the Universe.


Posted By: firewall
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 3:32pm
So set you (O Muhammad SAW) your face towards the religion of pure Isl�mic Monotheism Hanifa (worship none but Allah Alone) Allah's Fitrah (i.e. Allah's Islamic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalqill�h (i.e. the Religion of All�h Isl�mic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not[]. [Tafsir At�Tabar�, Vol 21, Page 41]

(Always) Turning in repentance to Him (only), and be afraid and dutiful to Him; and perform As�Sal�t and be not of AlMushrik�n -- of those who split up their religion, and became sects, each sect rejoicing in that which is with it.

[Quran, 30:30-32]



i'm sorry that i'm not arabic speaking, so correct me if i'm mistaken. i understand it as "don't you become one of the mushrikun -- that is people that make their religion sects, each sect rejoicing in that which is with it." when we become sects, we're mimicking the mushrikun& that's very bad. that's why the first ayat tells, we must refer back to Allah, worship none but Allah. at least 5 times a day, we pray "guide us to the straight path"

not just me, but us -- all muslims.

Islam is suppose to unite & bring peace to its ummah, not hate between us. true? 


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 3:50pm

Salam ala kum Firewall,

If you investigate the matter for yourself, you will see that the shirk (division) happened immediately after the death of Rasulallah (a.s.), and this division was caused by those who disobeyed the direct orders of the prophet given at Ghadir Khum (look it up, don't take my word for it), or, see the "Hmmmmm" topic in this forum (where much of the evidence and references are presented).

I have heard that it is illegal in Malaysia to claim that you are a Shia. If this is true, then I understand why you have this opinion. The most important (and primary) duty of every Muslim is to obey Allah and his messenger. If a person disobeys, then seperating from them is obiedience to Allah, not fitna.



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Abu Hadi
Date Posted: 24 May 2005 at 4:29pm

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim

Salams to br. Jello, Ali Zaki and others

WHO WINS WHEN THE MUSLIMS ARE DIVIDED?

In other words, who derives the benefit from this situation that we are currently in.

ANSWER:
The Kafirs, The Mushriks, and the Zionist enemies

So all of you, delight and others who have posted hate and baseless accusations against other muslims please explain yourselves and let me know what you are trying to accomplish....?

I haven't felt the need to respond until now, but this is getting ridiculous...!

If you believe that the Shias are Kafir or Mushrik, please make your argument, instead of just name calling. This forum has great potential to be a center of exchange of ideas and information amoung the followers of Prophet Muhammed(p.b.u.h), unless it is sidetracked by name calling, bad behaviour and propaganda. These should have no place in a forum, such as this, and the administrators of this site should enforce those policies. I do not believe in censorship, but I agree in enforcing policies regarding manners that are part of our religion. The Prophet Muhammed(p.b.u.h) taught us not to demeen, humiliate, or name call anyone, including the Kafir. So even if you believe that the Shias are Kafir, you still should not belittle, name call, or spread false accusations. This is according to the Prophet we both follow. As for me, I am a Muslim. I accepts the Jaafari school as my madthab. I also live in America, in Dearborn, Michigan and I go to Salat Jummah every Friday at the Islamic Center of America, the largest masjid in the United States. I do my Salat next to anyone who is next to me, and I don't ask if they are Shia or Sunni. By the way, there are many followers of Ahl Al Sunnah who attend this mosque and pray behind the Imam, who is a follower of the Jaafari school. So to all the name callers know this, even though you may hate me, I don't hate you. I consider you to be my brother and sister in Islam and would like to have these discussions continue, but without the hate, negativity, and backbiting,

wa salama



-------------
There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error...
Quran Ch.2 Verse 256


Posted By: firewall
Date Posted: 26 May 2005 at 3:14am


Posted By: new_muslimah
Date Posted: 27 May 2005 at 10:07am

What ISLAM stays silent at this brutal Attack?

What will salafis say about this ?

Nineteen dead in suicide blast at Pakistan Muslim shrine

ISLAMABAD (AFP) - A suicide bomber blew himself up in the middle of a crowd of Shiite Muslims at a shrine close to the Pakistani capital, killing at least 19 people and injuring dozens, doctors and witnesses said.

http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=127u4il1t/M=327693.6212950.7267387.1442997/D=news/S=95959790:LREC/EXP=1117207940/A=2693407/R=3/id=noscript/SIG=10pi1r28g/*http://music.yahoo.com/">
Hundreds of pilgrims were celebrating an annual festival on Friday when the bomb exploded at the Bari Imam shrine, which is just north of Islamabad and near diplomatic and government buildings including the prime minister's residence.

"There were pools of blood everywhere and the bomb scattered body parts inside and outside the shrine. It was a very gory, sickening scene," Mohammed Amjad, a witness, told AFP.

The majority of the worshippers marking the anniversary of a 17th-century Muslim saint's death were members of Pakistan's minority Shiite community, witnesses said. In previous days the worshippers have been mainly Sunnis.

Thousands of Pakistani Shiite and majority Sunni Muslims have died in sectarian carnage in recent years through bomb blasts, suicide bombing and targeted killings. Last year 160 people died.

Police said they found a decapitated head lying on the floor of the shrine several yards away from a dead body after the latest bombing, which happened at about 11:20 am (0620 GMT).

"It seems to be a suicide attack. The investigators are going towards this," Pakistan's Information Minister Sheikh Rashid told AFP.

"It was an act of terrorism," Tariq Pirzada, a senior Islamabad administration official, told AFP, confirming that 19 people had died.

He said "there is strong suspicion" that a mutilated body at the scene belonged to a suicide bomber.

Pakistan's military ruler President Pervez Musharraf expressed "shock and profound grief" at the blast and ordered an inquiry to track down the culprits.

"The president strongly condemned the heinous act of terrorism and directed the concerned authorities to provide immediate relief and medical treatment to the injured," an official statement said.

The attack came as US Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia, Christina Rocca, visited Pakistan and hours before Islamic hardliners staged mass protests against alleged abuse of the Koran at the US detention centre in Guantanamo Bay.

Doctors said 18 bodies and 50 wounded people were taken to Islamabad's Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences hospital, while another body and six other wounded people arrived at City Hospital.

Polyclinic, a third hospital, said 23 injured were brought in, of whom eight were fighting for their lives.

"The congregation was in progress. Around 400 people were there, when a man walked in and started towards the stage where a Shiite leader was delivering a sermon," Amjad, the witness, said.

"When the man got close to the stage there was a big explosion and there was panic all around."

Worshippers in traditional Pakistani clothing wailed and beat themselves amid scenes of chaos after the blast.

The shrine, in the village of Nurpur, is dedicated to Sufi Muslim saint Shah Abdul Latif Kazimi, known as Bari Imam, who helped bring Islam to the region.

The Sunni custodian of the shrine and two other people were shot dead near the compound in February. Both sects claim the shrine is theirs but it has been controlled by Sunnis for the past two decades.

In March, 39 Sunni and Shiite devotees died in a blast at another Sufi shrine in the remote southwestern town of Fatahpur.

Traditional practices by Sufi Muslims, who follow a mystical branch of the religion, are frowned on by some conservatives and this week a number of religious scholars criticised the Bari Imam celebrations.

A group of senior Pakistani Muslim clerics this month declared as un-Islamic suicide bombings and attacks on ordinary citizens and places of worship



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Allah is the Light of the Universe.


Posted By: saalih
Date Posted: 31 May 2005 at 8:21am
what are shia's views on uthman , no hard feelings.(out of curiosity). i heard shia say a lot of bad things about uthman, but i won't to hear it from a shia


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 31 May 2005 at 9:02am

Salam Shakur,

As a regular Shia (12er, non-Scholar) I will give you my understanding of the Shia position on Uthman, which would generally apply to Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman.

First, the disagreement between Shia and Sunni on the place of these individuals in Islamic history is not because of any hatred for these individuals or any personal animosity towards them. The problem is simply this;

Our Sunni brothers claim that the Prophet did NOT nominate his successor during his lifetime. As a result, it was neccessary for the Umma to select a successor to the prophet based on an electoral process. The Shia disagree with this, and present evidence for their claim (from sources accepted by both Shia and Sunni) of Imam Ali (a.s.) as the successor to the Prophet that was explicitly chosen by the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) during his lifetime. (see "Hmmmmm" topic on this forum).

Why does it matter?

The reason that this is important is because the Shia believe that the Prophet would not nominate someone who is not qualified to succeed him. Since the first three Caliphs were NOT choosen by the prophet (this we agree on), there is no evidence that they were actually qualified to fulfill the role of the Prophets (p.b.u.h.) successor. In fact, there are many unfortunate and tragic events that occurred during the time of the first three Caliphs, and particularly during the Caliphate of Uthman, that were a result of poor judgement and leadership. The Shia would say that the civil war that occurred within the Muslim community was a direct result of a lack of proper judgement and guidance by the first three Caliphs. This does not mean that that they had any bad intention, and Allah alone is the judge.



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: saalih
Date Posted: 01 June 2005 at 7:28am
are you saying ali was more qualified than ali. the prophet said that abu bakr had more faith than all of the world put together ( including ali's). 


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 01 June 2005 at 7:46am
Source?

-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: midway
Date Posted: 02 June 2005 at 4:36pm

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

Dear brother Ali Zaki,

 

 

Would you mind clarifying a muse of mine?

 

 

I see you take pride in the fact that you follow a path, which agrees with the Ahadith of the Prophet (SAW) with regards to the 12 Caliphs of Islam.

 

May I ask who is your current leader?

 

 

 

Many kind regards

midway

 



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 03 June 2005 at 7:00am

Peace to you, Midway

Our current leader is Imam Mahdi (May Allah hasten his return). Since you asked a direct question, this is the direct answer and more information can be provided upon request.



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 04 June 2005 at 10:27am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki Ali Zaki wrote:

Peace to you, Midway

Our current leader is Imam Mahdi (May Allah hasten his return). Since you asked a direct question, this is the direct answer and more information can be provided upon request.

Whats the purpose of his leadership if he is hiding in cave for 1000year? A leader is one who is with the people. When the 1000year old shia mehdi comes out of his invisible hiding place thats when you can clime he is your curren leader. Ofcourse it would be something ells if your beliefs is that he is guiding you like the holy ghost is guiding the christians every day



Posted By: Abu Hadi
Date Posted: 04 June 2005 at 4:29pm

Salams to all, Ayubi1187 wrote,

Whats the purpose of his leadership if he is hiding in cave for 1000year? A leader is one who is with the people. When the 1000year old shia mehdi comes out of his invisible hiding place thats when you can clime he is your curren leader. Ofcourse it would be something ells if your beliefs is that he is guiding you like the holy ghost is guiding the christians every day

This is really off the original topic that we are discussing. Although I thought about not responding, I will anyway. First point, If you are going to post on an English forum, please make some attempt to use proper grammar, spelling, and spaces. Second point, Imam Mehdi is not invisible. If you are claiming he is invisible (like in the movie, 'The Invisible Man'), please give your source for this as I have never heard of it.  He is living on earth, somewhere that is unknown to his followers at the current time. This is my understanding. If a knowledgeable person on this forum, such as Ali Zaki or jello , would like to expand further on this, I would like to listen. And third, your comparison of Imam Mehdi to the Holy Ghost shows that you know nothing about either Imam Mehdi or the Holy Ghost. I happen to be a muslim re-vert ( I was born as a Christian and reverted to Islam when I was 20 years old) and (In Shah Allah) a follower of Ahl Al Bayt, so I know a little about both. I will not go into the details about the fallacy of this comparison, as it will probably bore most readers of this forum. In breif, Christians believe that the Holy Ghost is the third entity in the triune god head commonly known as the Holy Trinity. The Holy Ghost (as the christians believe) guides by manifesting itself as a physical entity (i.e. flames on the Day of Pentacost) or as a spiritual force that is felt in the hearts of the faithful christian. Obviously, we (as muslims) reject the possibility of Allah(s.w.a) being subdivided into parts, and call this shirik. We also reject the idea that Allah(s.w.a) would manifest Himself in a physical form. To conclude this point, there can never be any comparison between the Christian doctrine of the Holy Spirit and any Islamic doctrine, including the doctrine of Imam Mehdi (May Allah hasten his return) because there is no equivalent doctrine in Islam that is similar to the Christian doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Since there is no equivalent main doctrine, as was just stated, there can be no equivalency in derived doctrine (i.e. guidance).

The fourth point is that is this: If you are so skeptical about the doctrine of Imam Mehdi, know that this is a widely held doctrine amoung muslims, both Shia and Sunni. Here is one of many sources for you to consider. If this is not sufficient, I will provide more...

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

Sunni References:

  • Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75
  • Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7
  • Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63
  • al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557
  • Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160
  • al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2
  • al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217
  • Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144
  • Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305
  • al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249
  • al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617
  • al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166
  • Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348
  • Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41
  • Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186
  • Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,
  • al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12
  • al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12
  • Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380
  • Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266
  • and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

 

 



-------------
There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error...
Quran Ch.2 Verse 256


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 05 June 2005 at 1:32am
Originally posted by Abu Hadi Abu Hadi wrote:

Salams to all, Ayubi1187 wrote,

Whats the purpose of his leadership if he is hiding in cave for 1000year? A leader is one who is with the people. When the 1000year old shia mehdi comes out of his invisible hiding place thats when you can clime he is your curren leader. Ofcourse it would be something ells if your beliefs is that he is guiding you like the holy ghost is guiding the christians every day

This is really off the original topic that we are discussing. Although I thought about not responding, I will anyway. First point, If you are going to post on an English forum, please make some attempt to use proper grammar, spelling, and spaces. Second point, Imam Mehdi is not invisible. If you are claiming he is invisible (like in the movie, 'The Invisible Man'), please give your source for this as I have never heard of it.  He is living on earth, somewhere that is unknown to his followers at the current time. This is my understanding. If a knowledgeable person on this forum, such as Ali Zaki or jello , would like to expand further on this, I would like to listen. And third, your comparison of Imam Mehdi to the Holy Ghost shows that you know nothing about either Imam Mehdi or the Holy Ghost. I happen to be a muslim re-vert ( I was born as a Christian and reverted to Islam when I was 20 years old) and (In Shah Allah) a follower of Ahl Al Bayt, so I know a little about both. I will not go into the details about the fallacy of this comparison, as it will probably bore most readers of this forum. In breif, Christians believe that the Holy Ghost is the third entity in the triune god head commonly known as the Holy Trinity. The Holy Ghost (as the christians believe) guides by manifesting itself as a physical entity (i.e. flames on the Day of Pentacost) or as a spiritual force that is felt in the hearts of the faithful christian. Obviously, we (as muslims) reject the possibility of Allah(s.w.a) being subdivided into parts, and call this shirik. We also reject the idea that Allah(s.w.a) would manifest Himself in a physical form. To conclude this point, there can never be any comparison between the Christian doctrine of the Holy Spirit and any Islamic doctrine, including the doctrine of Imam Mehdi (May Allah hasten his return) because there is no equivalent doctrine in Islam that is similar to the Christian doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Since there is no equivalent main doctrine, as was just stated, there can be no equivalency in derived doctrine (i.e. guidance).

The fourth point is that is this: If you are so skeptical about the doctrine of Imam Mehdi, know that this is a widely held doctrine amoung muslims, both Shia and Sunni. Here is one of many sources for you to consider. If this is not sufficient, I will provide more...

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

Sunni References:

  • Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75
  • Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7
  • Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63
  • al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557
  • Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160
  • al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2
  • al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217
  • Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144
  • Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305
  • al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249
  • al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617
  • al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166
  • Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348
  • Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41
  • Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186
  • Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,
  • al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12
  • al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12
  • Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380
  • Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266
  • and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

Their is no need to write such lengthy explanation for something so simple. The similarity is ther your leader is not with you thats men he is leading you threw other means like the holy ghost do.

I think you are little confused when it comes to imam mehdi. We from ahlul-sunnah believe in the coming of Imam mehdi so no need to quote to me about that. I'm only objecting to the shia doctrine of imam mehdi who according to shia was alredy born and is hiding in invisible cave for 1000 year.



Posted By: Abu Hadi
Date Posted: 05 June 2005 at 3:55am

Salams to all,

According to the Shia doctrine, he is alive on earth. Whether he is in an invisible cave or not, noone knowns. If you believe in Imam Mehdi(May Allah(s.w.a.) hasten his return) then what is your objection to the Shia doctrine. Is is that he guides the ummah while not being manifest or that he has remained alive for over 1000 years ?



-------------
There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error...
Quran Ch.2 Verse 256


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 05 June 2005 at 4:31am
Originally posted by Abu Hadi Abu Hadi wrote:

Salams to all,

According to the Shia doctrine, he is alive on earth. Whether he is in an invisible cave or not, noone knowns. If you believe in Imam Mehdi(May Allah(s.w.a.) hasten his return) then what is your objection to the Shia doctrine. Is is that he guides the ummah while not being manifest or that he has remained alive for over 1000 years ?

You can read from my post the objections we muslims have with the mythical shia mehdi who is still hiding after 1000 year to come out later to his shia, every thing about him is fishy . We muslims believe that its big scam on part of some shia to deceive and misguide people. We have sen allot of mehdis in the history of islam and the last one who claimed to be mehdi was Ghulam Ahmad.



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 6:10am

We muslims believe that its big scam on part of some shia to deceive and misguide people.

A couple of interesting things in this statement that I would like to bring to the attention of other forum members.

1.) "We muslims believe...big scam on the part of some Shia..."

Of course, this implies that this individual considers Shia's to be non-Muslims. If this is the case, maybe you should continue this discussion on an Al-Quida, or other Wahabbi website.

2.) "We muslims..." Amazing that someone could claim to be speaking for all Muslims. I can only imagine that this could be the case if Ayubi1187 considers the "Muslims" to be a very small group. If so, then see above comment for suggested alternate discussion location.

3.) Since noone is claiming that the 12th Imam has come our of occultation, then how could this proposition provide an mechanism "to deceive and misguide people". After all, how could an "invisible man" living, " in a cave somewhere" be an effective propoganda tool. Ayubi1187 must think that us "non-Muslims" are pretty uncreative.

For those who wish to know, I included some hadith on this topic,"

"Fatima Zahra(a.s.) told her son Husayn(a.s.):

When I gave birth to you, the Prophet came to see me. He took you in his hands and said to me: "O Fatima, take your Husayn, and know that he is the father of nine Imams. From his descendants will appear righteous leaders among whom the ninth will be the Qa'im." http://al-islam.org/mahdi/nontl/Chap-2.htm#n20 - [20]
Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 2, p. 552."

"Whoever acknowledges all the Imams, but denies the existence of the Mahdi, is like the one who acknowledges all the prophets but denies the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Someone asked him (Imam Jafar aSadiq (a.s.) : "Among whose descendants is the Mahdi?" The Imam responded:

The fifth progeny of the seventh Imam [Musa Kazim] will be the Mahdi. However, he will disappear. It is not proper for you to name him. http://al-islam.org/mahdi/nontl/Chap-2.htm#n25 - [25] "

Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 143; Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 2, p. 404

There are many, many more. I have only included these two to conserve space, and because I know that many of our Sunni brothers claim to accept Hadith from these persons (although they do not specifiy which sources they accept for there hadiths. Again, both these hadith are considered reliable by Shia Ulama (I do not know what the Sunni scholars say about them, however).



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 9:06am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki Ali Zaki wrote:

We muslims believe that its big scam on part of some shia to deceive and misguide people.


A couple of interesting things in this statement that I would like to bring to the attention of other forum members.


1.) "We muslims believe...big scam on the part of some Shia..."


Of course, this implies that this individual considers Shia's to be non-Muslims. If this is the case, maybe you should continue this discussion on an Al-Quida, or other Wahabbi website.


Whats Al-Quida? Their is not secret about this our scholars have only recognize four madhabs and shia madhab is not one of them. I do not consider every shia as kaffir.

Quote

2.) "We muslims..." Amazing that someone could claim to be speaking for all Muslims. I can only imagine that this could be the case if Ayubi1187 considers the "Muslims" to be a very small group. If so, then see above comment for suggested alternate discussion location.



The question is how many muslims believe in this imam who is still hiding himself after 1000 year who will suddenly one day re appear naked in daylight? only shia do and the rest don't, so you can figure out the rest.

Quote

3.) Since noone is claiming that the 12th Imam has come our of occultation, then how could this proposition provide an mechanism "to deceive and misguide people". After all, how could an "invisible man" living, " in a cave somewhere" be an effective propoganda tool. Ayubi1187 must think that us "non-Muslims" are pretty uncreative.



The people who gained most from this imaginary imam are non other the the four so cold representatives of the imam. They claimed to have contact with this imam and to be his representative. The weirdest part is non of this four men have compiled or written any religious book. In the shia books they are always mention in connection with collecting qums from the poor people in the name of this imam. It was only this men who supposedly have sen the mehdi before he went in to ghayba. Ther is report from Abu jafar at-tusi one of the representatives said
�We knew exactly what we were into(cheating people) with Abul Qasim ibn Rawh. We used to fight like dogs over this matter (the collected money).�

Quote

For those who wish to know, I included some hadith on this topic,"...



Bihar al-anwar? Ithbat al-hudat?


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 9:16am

Br. Ayubi1187

REGARDING THE HADITH QUOTED FROM Bihar Al-Anwar and Ithbat Al-Hudat

I quoted these Hadith because they are very clear. If I show you hadith from mainstream Sunni transmitters that clarify this topic for you will you accept the authority of Imam Mahdi?



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 06 June 2005 at 9:44am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki Ali Zaki wrote:

Br. <SPAN =bold>Ayubi1187</SPAN>


<SPAN =bold>REGARDING THE HADITH QUOTED FROM Bihar Al-Anwar and Ithbat Al-Hudat</SPAN>


I quoted these Hadith because they are very clear. If I show you hadith from mainstream Sunni transmitters that clarify this topic for you will you accept the authority of Imam Mahdi?



Please don't confuse yourself with our Imam Mehdi mentioned in our books who will be born in the future with your imam who supposedly was born 1000 year ago and is hiding until today to re emerge later to his shia. Even Ahmadi cult use our hadith the same way shia do.


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 09 June 2005 at 6:36am

Assalam-alaikum!

For the first time I have read this thread. I was curious about why the Shias beat themselves and seem to be in mourning most of the time wearing black etc, but reading this whole discussion I am really startled by the complications that have been brought into our simple and easy to understand and follow religion - Islam!

It is all the more startling that when Abu Hadi writes: According to the Shia doctrine, he is alive on earth. Whether he is in an invisible cave or not, noone knowns. If you believe in Imam Mehdi(May Allah(s.w.a.) hasten his return) then what is your objection to the Shia doctrine. Is is that he guides the ummah while not being manifest or that he has remained alive for over 1000 years ?

We seek Allah's guidance which has been made clear to us in the Qur'an and not some Mehdi who is supposed to be hiding and guiding (Astaghfirullah) from a cave. What dimensions people give to Islam!  Allah, Most Compassionate and Merciful guide everyone of us to the Right Path and unite us Muslims to follow the straight way Ameen!



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 09 June 2005 at 8:27am

Salam brother Tasneem,

Islam is simple, but not "simple-minded". Islam is easy to follow, but encourages it's followers to continue to increase their knowledge of all useful things, including religion. Allah judges us only based on our level of knowledge, but does not excuse those who "stick their heads in the sand".

REGARDING IMAM MAHDI (May Allah hastend his return)

I do now wish to comment extensively on this subject, as it requires a certain amount of pre-requisite knowledge to understand. Allah is the source of all authority, and Allah gave some of authority to the Holy Messenger(a.s.) by his will. The Prophet (a.s.) in turn designated a Wali during his lifetime and gave some of his "God-given" authority to his Wali (as was the practice of previous prophets). The Wali, during his lifetime, also designated his successor and passed the authority (Wasi) to him, etc, etc....and then to Imam Mahdi (who is hidden at this time, although we don't know the details of this and we cannot communicate with him directly). None of this is "Bidah" (and innovation) and is all supported extensively by Quran and Hadith.

If you would like to know more, see the "Hmmmm." topic in this forum, starting on page 5, or, many other sources of information are avilable upon request.

Salam



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 10 June 2005 at 3:53am

Wa-alaikum-Salaam

 

Mr Ali Zaki you have responded to one of my posts before when you stunned me (and perhaps many believers) when you ridiculed my post that conveyed the message of �Tauhid� under the thread �Islam for a Buddhist�. Despite being shocked that a believing Muslim could write this I ignored you assuming that you are a new revert who is still in the process of learning. Now that you have made it clear that you follow the Shia faith which baffles me on many fronts and because you have once more come forward to respond to my post I have a number of questions for you. I would also welcome input from any other Shia members.

 

Allah has said in Sura Al-Kahf:

018.001: Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no Crookedness:

018.002: (He hath made it) Straight (and Clear) in order that He may warn (the godless) of a terrible Punishment from Him, and that He may give Glad Tidings to the Believers who work righteous deeds, that they shall have a goodly Reward,

 

The Qur�an is Qaiyim meaning straight - opposite of crookedness and is clear without any ambiguity and makes things clear and perspicuous. Its directions are plain for everyone to understand. It is not full of mysteries and dark corners. According to the scholar and translator A Yusuf Ali whose translation is very widely read:�Any book that deals with the highest mysteries of spiritual life must necessarily have portions whose full meaning is clearer to some minds than to others not so well prepared. But here there is nowhere any mystification, any desire to wrap up things in dark sayings repugnant to human reason. God�s purpose to give clear warning of spiritual dangers and lead up to the highest bliss.�

 

018.054: We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.

 

003.007: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

 

It is clear from the above verse that we are to follow the clear revelations and not worry about the allegorical. Keeping this in mind please explain quoting the verse from the Qur�an  and if possible the authentic Hadith (Qudsi, Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim) answers to the following questions:

 

  1. The Shias practise �matam� or beating the chest to mourn the death of Hazrat Ali, Hassan and Hussain. Where does it say in the Qur�an to mourn their deaths even after 1400 years? It seems to me that people who practise this form of mourning and beating etc are not willing to accept Allah�s will and are continuously taunting Allah for the suffering of the above. The Prophet Mohammed fobade mourning beyond three days except for a woman whose husband has died in which case it is 4 months and ten days. If you follow the Qur�an and the teachings of Mohammed (SAW) can you please provide where this practise comes from?
  2. You�ve written: I do now wish to comment extensively on this subject, as it requires a certain amount of pre-requisite knowledge to understand. Allah is the source of all authority, and Allah gave some of authority to the Holy Messenger(a.s.) by his will. The Prophet (a.s.) in turn designated a Wali during his lifetime and gave some of his "God-given" authority to his Wali (as was the practice of previous prophets). The Wali, during his lifetime, also designated his successor and passed the authority (Wasi) to him, etc, etc....and then to Imam Mahdi (who is hidden at this time, although we don't know the details of this and we cannot communicate with him directly). None of this is "Bidah" (and innovation) and is all supported extensively by Quran and Hadith.�

 

I am too �simple minded� and worried about �sticking my head in the sand�. While you do not wish to extensively comment on this subject you nevertheless contend that it is not an innovation and is all supported extensively in the Qur�an and Hadith. Could you please give a few references from the Qur�an first and then the Hadith. Please give full quotations from the Qur�an.

 

  1. Unity1 has given a very good explanation of what the Shia�s practise and since you have not objected to the explanation I take it that the practise of this temporary contract marriage called �Mutah� is a reality. If so could you please give the sources from the Qur�an where one is allowed to enter into a temporary contract? As Allah has discouraged divorce and is a last resort when a married couple cannot bear to live with each other, how can a temporary marriage be allowed? It seems like it is legalising adultery, please forgive me if my understanding is wrong. What is the minimum and maximum periods that these contracts are entered into and where is the source of this permission?

 I have many more questions but I shall ask them after hearing from you.



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 10 June 2005 at 8:02am

Salam Tasneem,

I think maybe you misunderstood my post under "Islam and Buddism". The verses you quoted from Quran establish GENERAL PRINCIPLES which are clear and unambigous. The APPLICATION of those GENERAL PRINCIPLES to a SPECIFIC individual (i.e., to say " he/she is going to hell, or, this group or that group is going to hell (other then those specifically mentioned in Quran such as the people of Pharoah) is what I was refering to. I won't spend alot of time on this, as this is not the appropriate thread for that discussion and Sunni and Shia do not disagree on this principle.

LET ME GO THROUGH YOUR QUESTIONS ONE BY ONE

1.)  The Shias practise �matam� or beating the chest to mourn the death of Hazrat Ali, Hassan and Hussain. ...

First of all, the practice of "beating the chest", "hitting the forehead", "self-mutilation", etc. are all cultural practices that the Shia Ulama unanimously agree are HARAM if they cause harm to the individual. However, the concept of the annual mouring the dealth (murder) of Imam Ali and Imam Hussain (I am not aware of any specific practices related to the martyrdom of Imam Hassan, however) is, of course, central to Shiism.

Of course, you will not find any Hadith (that would be acceptable to a Sunni) from the Prophet (a.s.) or anything in the Holy Quran that explicitly call for this type of ritual. As a result, many of our Sunni brothers accuse of us of "exageration" or even "creating innovations" in the religion by practicing these rituals.

One of the most concise and comprehensive statements regarding the importance of remembering Imam Husayn (a.s.) and the events of Karbala was made by the Imam (a.s.) himself, when he said,

" Imam Husayn ('a) says, "I have risen up to carry out amr bil ma'ruf, to revive the faith, and to struggle against corruption. My movement is one which is Islamic and aimed at reform." 

So the rememberance of Imam Husayn (and the same applies to Imam Ali (a.s.)) cannot be compared with a typical funeral and mourning period. Let me explain using the words of the Imam (a.s.).

" I have risen up to carry our amr bil ma'ruf"

"Do not follow those who have forgotten mention of Me and pursue their own fancies." (18:27) 

Today, the anti-Islamic behavior, both in his personal life and his actions as "Caliphate" of Yazid ibn Muawiyah are well know (ie., drinking alchohol in public, incest, playing with monkeys, etc.). However, at the time of Imam Husayn (a.s.), these things were known by only a small group of people due to lack of any effective opposition movement. In Imam Husayn (a.s.) refusing to pay allegience to such a person, he was educating the Umma about the neccessity of not following such a person, as supported by numerous verses of Quran, Hadith, etc.

"to revive the faith, and the struggle against corruption"

It is well known that due to the lack of proper leadership of the Muslim Umma during the Caliphate of Muawiya, the Muslim Umma was largely unaware of many of the truth of Islam. Such practices as cursing Imam Ali (a.s.) from pulpit, fabrication of Hadith and exiling or executing prominant companions of the Prophet such as (Abu Tharr) had weakened the faith of the majority of the Muslims and "paved the road" for the spread of corruption and innovation. Imam Husayn stood firmly for the religion of Islam as preached by his grandfather, and reawakened the Muslim Umma of the time to the true, original Islam.

In regards to the struggle against corruption, this applies today as well. When Shia today celebrate Ashura, we are reminded of the neccessity of stading aginst corrpution and stading for justice for all mankind.

I can answer this question in more detail, if you like.

I have asked many times for authentic sources that the Sunni will accept of eyewitness acconts of the events at Karbala and Sham. Since we both agree that the event occured, why no credible sources for information. I have previously quoted the speech of Imam Hussien, and was accused of spreading fabricated traditions. However, no alternate sources have been provided. I have yet to receive any reply from our Sunni brothers regarding my request.

2.) Regarding the proof in Quran and Hadith for the identity and person of Imam Mahdi.

There are no Ayat of Quran (that I am aware of) that address this issue.

Hadith

FROM IMAM ALI (a.s.)

" The promised Mahdi will emerge at the End of Time from among us. There is no Mahdi in any nation other than him being awaited." Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7, p. 147. There are 50 similar reports from Imam Ali (a.s.)

FROM IMAM HUSSIEN (a.s.)

" Twelve Imams will be from among us. The first among them will be 'Ali b. Abi Talib and the last will be my ninth descendant, the rightful Qa'im. Because of his blessed existence God will bring back the dead earth to life and prosperity. God will give victory to His religion over all other religions, even if this be against the liking of the disbelievers. The Mahdi will disappear from public for a while. During his occultation a number of people will abandon religion, whereas others will remain steadfast and will suffer because of their faith. This latter group will be asked tauntingly: "If your belief is true, when would your promised Imam rise?" But, remember that whoever perseveres under those unfavorable circumstances when enemies would falsify and harm them, their status will be like those who fought by the side of the Prophet in defending the religion of God."

Ibid., Vol. 2, pp. 333, 399; Majlisi, Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 133. There are thirteen more traditions reported from Imam Husayn.

FROM IMAM JAFAR AS-SADIQ (a.s.)

"Ja'far b. Muhammad Sadiq said:

Whoever acknowledges all the Imams, but denies the existence of the Mahdi, is like the one who acknowledges all the prophets but denies the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Someone asked him: "Among whose descendants is the Mahdi?" The Imam responded:

The fifth progeny of the seventh Imam [Musa Kazim] will be the Mahdi. However, he will disappear. It is not proper for you to name him."

Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 143; Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 2, p. 404. There are one hundred and twenty-three additional traditions reported on the authority of al-Sadiq.

Of course, all of these traditions are from the Imams themselves (and from authentic Shia sources). There are two problems with discussing these issues with our Sunni brothers.

1.) SOURCES. Again, our Sunni brothers claims to respect and love the Ahly Al'Bayt (Imam Ali (a.s.), Imam Hussien (a.s.)), however, they will not accept our hadith from them and they will not present any alternative collection of authentic Hadith from them. As a result, they treat them like those people who have a very lovely, expensive Quran in their home that is never actually opened or read.

2.) Their are many Hadith from Imam Jarar As'Sadiq regarding the identity of Imam Mahdi, however, again our Sunni brothers do not accept our hadith from him (although they claim to accept his scholarly status, in general) and do not present any alternative collection of hadith . As a result, the Imam is respected but wholly ignored on these issues.

This is what I meant by pre-requisite knowedge. A person must accept (first) the Immate of Imam Ali (a.s), then that of his progeny, otherwise, this point cannot be logically discussed. (for the above reasons)

3.) REGARDING "Mutah" (temporary marriage).

This is simple to explain. It is well known that this was practiced during the lifetime of the Prophet, and it was never abrogated (nullified) by him. Omar said that this practice was allowed during the time of the prophet but I am aborgating it. Not even Imam Ali (a.s.), is able to (nor did he ever attempt to) alter the Sunnah of the Prophet. Who, then, gave Omar the authority to do it?

Salam,


 



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 11 June 2005 at 4:25am

Assalam-alaikum Mr Ali Zaki

Thankyou for the explanation. The first and foremost source of guidance for a Muslim is the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammed (SAW). In your response you say that all the practises discussed above are supported by the Qur'an and (Hadith), but I am disappointed that you have not quoted any verse from the Qur'an to support your argument.

"Do not follow those who have forgotten mention of Me and pursue their own fancies." (18:27)�

I am not sure where you got this from. Verse 18:27 in the Qur�an is

And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.� 018.027

 May be I am asking too many questions and causing confusion for you, so let us take one issue at a time.

You have written :

3.) REGARDING "Mutah" (temporary marriage).

This is simple to explain. It is well known that this was practiced during the lifetime of the Prophet, and it was never abrogated (nullified) by him. Omar said that this practice was allowed during the time of the prophet but I am aborgating it. Not even Imam Ali (a.s.), is able to (nor did he ever attempt to) alter the Sunnah of the Prophet. Who, then, gave Omar the authority to do it?

After Islam was perfected many of the pagan practises that existed during the time of the Prophet Mohammed (SAW) and those before his time were all abrogated. Whether or not you agree with me about it, as a Muslim you would agree that we should first follow the laws of marriage as laid out to us in the Qur'an by Allah the sole creator of the universe! Islam has been perfected for us and all the commands of Allah have nothing but benefit for us.

Instead of following the commands of Allah by dwelling upon the Quran when we direct our attention to historical events and base the practise of our life making human beings as our heros there is the grave danger of falling into sin whilst thinking that we are doing right. If this was the practise of anyone you revere, they may have done it under completely different circumstances and for different reasons. Allah has said in the Qur�an:

018.103: Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-

018.104: Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"

Allah has made it plain and clear in the Qur�an that we should obey Him and obey His Apostle Mohammed (SAW). The laws pertaining to marriage, divorce, inheritance etc have been discussed at length in the Qur�an.

 But this practise of temporary contract marriage raises a number of questions in my mind that would be very harmful to the entire community.

1. Can you tell me, who gets custody of the child in a temporary marriage?

2. Say a woman has entered into two contracts one after another the first contract being for a six month period. Immediately after finishing this contract she enters into another contract and a child is born to her. How is it decided whose child it is and who gets custody of this child?

3. Is there a period of "iddat" for the woman after the contract has ended? Who maintains her during this period? If not does she go back to her parents after ending the contract? 

3. How can a community allow the formation of a society where a child would grow up with a single parent despite not being an orphan?

4. A marriage in Islam should not be based on lust, how would you explain the reasons why these temporary marriages are contracted?

I look forward to your response and will move to other issues later. To me the first source of guidance is the Qur�an so I look forward to quotations from the Qur�an.

 

 



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 13 June 2005 at 7:53am

Salam to Tasneem,

REGARDING QURAN VERSE QUOTED

"Do not follow those who have forgotten mention of Me and pursue their own fancies." (18:27)�

The site that I got this from is not down right now. I will have to research this further and get back to you. They may have misquoted the reference.

You said,

" The first and foremost source of guidance for a Muslim is the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammed (SAW)."

I'm not sure why this sentence (this idea) is being continually repeated, as is there is some disagreement. If we cannot depend on those such as Iman Ali (a.s.), who is known as the gate to the city of the knowledge of the Prophet and Imam Hussien (a.s.), his grandson who is a member of his purified progeny and Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (a.s.) to convey the principles of Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (a.s.), then who can we turn to? Abu Harirah?

I have asked numerous times for Sunni sources on the events of Karbala. Do you know of any accurate sources of information that are depended on by the Sunni's?

REGARDING MUTAH

According to Ayatullah Khamenei

" Temporary marriage like permanent marriage, requires a marriage contract. Moreover there is no difference between permanent marriage and temporary marriage except in some aspects of the law, such as there is no divorce in temporary marriage - it terminates with the expiration of the time period. Likewise, neither spouse in a temporary marriage inherits from the other. The temporary marriage contract is as follows: The woman says: " I marry myself to you for the specified dowry (mention the amount) and for the specified time period (mention the time period)". Then the man says: "I accept". 
3) According to obligatory precaution, for the marriage of a virgin girl it is a condition to obtain her guardian�s (father or paternal grandfather) permission. "

SOURCE: http://www.khamenei.de/fatwas/further.htm#temporarymarriage - http://www.khamenei.de/fatwas/further.htm#temporarymarriage

TO SUMMARIZE;

Custody in Temporary Marriage: same as Permanent Marriage

Idat (mandatory waiting period); same as Permanent Marriage

Prohibition against marriage based on Lust; same as Permanent Marriage

TWO DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PERMANENT AND TEMPORARY MARRIAGE

1.) No Divorce- Marriage terminates automatically after a specified time period.

2.) No Inheritance: Spouses do not inherit from eachother.

Most of the arguments that I have heard against temporary marriage could also be applied to permanent marriage. There is, in reality, very little difference between the two types of marriage.

- Regarding Single Parent families- This term is a western one, and has a western connotation. Since there is no divorce in temporary marriage, there is no questions of the child being in a "divorced" family. The father is still financially responsible for his children (as in permanent marriage w/divorce). In regards to the father and mother not living together, there are many practical solutions to this problem, as would apply to a divorce situation. Obviously, most people that enter into a permanent marriage do not intend to get divorced, as most temporary marriage is not with the intention of having children.

The most commont argument against temporary marriage is that is "legalized prostitution". I don't know about that, I think any prostitute would have a hard time making a living if she had to wait three months between each temporary marriage.

 



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 6:02am

Sadly you are unable to quote any verse from the Qur'an that sanctions this hideous practise. I have not heard of this practise in Islam or amongst the Christians, the Jews, the Hindus, the Buddhists or any other faith. You seem educated yet, I do not understand how you can justify such pagan practises. All along I have been asking you to quote the verses of the Qur'an and with difficulty you come up with one verse without the proper reference and the source from where you picked this verse mysteriously disappears.

Your wrote : "Obviously, most people that enter into a permanent marriage do not intend to get divorced, as most temporary marriage is not with the intention of having children."

Isn't this shameful and sinful?  The Qur'an has never sanctioned such a practise and because you are unable to give me a verse from the Qur'an which is clear and easy to understand, you conveniently lay the blame on Imam Ali, Hassan Hussain etc.

In all my posts I only refer to the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammed (SAW). Whereas you are confrontational in this discussion by bringing in Umar and Abu Huraira etc which are not part of the Qur'an or Sunnah. There are a number of issues I would have liked to discuss but I am shocked that you defend what is haram by legalising prostitution under the name of "mutah".

A Muslim is one who obeys the Commands of Allah as specified in the Qur'an. I am of the opinion that others who are on this site are here either to learn about Islam or to have a sincere dialogue. But you have been advising people or accusing posts of those who follow mainstream Islam.  I think this is a site about mainstream Islam ie those who follow the Qur'an and Sunnah (also known as sunnis). Moderators correct me if I am wrong. I wouldn't be posting messages to those who come here to learn about Islam if this is/was a shia site.



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 8:06am

Salam Tasneem,

REGARDING TEMPORARY MARRIAGE BEING THE SUNNAH OF THE PROPHET (A.S.)

Before quoting Sunni sources which definately establish that temporary marriage was part of the Sunna of the prophet, I would like to clarify one thing. I AM NOT HERE TO ENCOURAGE THIS PRACTICE. It is clear from the Quran and Sunnah that permanent marriage is the best solution for all men and women, and that temporary marriage is for those situations where permanent marriage or (second best) abstienance is not possible. I reapeat, PERMANENT MARRIAGE IS BETTER THAN TEMPORARY MARRIAGE, ABSTEINANCE IS BETTER THAN TEMPORARY MARRIAGE. This is also in the Quran and Sunna.

Also, there are (unfortunately) Muslims that ABUSE temporary marriage, and use it incorrectly and for lustful purposes. The same applies to Muslim men who marry more than one wife permanently (which Sunni and Shia agree is permissable).

However, it is not right to say that it is haram. Here are the references from Sunni scholars which establish this.

After a brief overview of books of Tafsir in Part I, let us now look at some of the Sunni collections of traditions. It is narrated in Sahih Muslim that:

Jabir Ibn Abdullah and Salama Ibn al-Akwa' narrated: There came to us the proclaimer of Allah's Messenger (May peace be upon him) and said: "Allah's Messenger has granted you to benefit yourself (Istamta'u), i.e., to contract temporary marriage with women."

In the above tradition the verb Istamta'a (to enjoy; to have pleasure) has been used which is the exact form of the verb used in Quran in the verse of Mut'a 4:24, and moreover, Jabir said in the above tradition that Istamta'a means performing Mut'a of women (temporary marriage).

Sunni references:

  • Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter DXLI (titled: Temporary Marriage), Tradition #3246
  • Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p1022, Tradition #13, "Kitab al-Nikah, Bab Nikah al-Mut'a"

 

HERE'S MORE;

" Salama Ibn al-Akwa' and Jabir Ibn Abdullah reported: Allah's Messenger (May peace be upon him) came to us and permitted us to contract temporary marriage. "

Sunni references:

  • Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter DXLI (titled: Temporary Marriage), Tradition #3247
  • Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p1022, Tradition #14, "Kitab al-Nikah, Bab Nikah al-Mut'a"
"The Verse of Mut'a was revealed in Allah's Book, so we did it at the time of Allah's Apostle, and nothing was revealed in Quran to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet prohibit it till he died. But a man (who regarded it illegal) expressed what his own mind suggested."

[ Note: For the above Hadith, the Saudi translator of Sahih al-Bukhari (Muhammad Muhsin Khan) has changed the word "Mut'a" to "Hajj-at-Tamatu". This is while in the Arabic text of the Hadith of al-Bukhari which is beside the English text, the word "Mut'a" has been used alone: ]

Sunni references:

  • Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v6, Hadith #43
  • Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic, v2, p375, v6, p34
  • Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p436 on the authority of 'Imran Ibn al-Qasir

HOW'S ABOUT ANOTHER ONE

Abu Nadhra said: Ibn Abbas commanded to do Mut'a while Ibn Zubair forbade to do it. I mentioned this to Jabir Ibn Abdillah and he said: It is through me that this Hadith has been circulated. We did Mut'a (of Hajj and women) at the time of the Messenger of Allah. When Umar was installed as Caliph, he said: Verily Allah made permissible for his Messenger whatever He like and as He liked. And its command was revealed in Quran. Thus accomplish Hajj and Umra for Allah as Allah has commanded you, and confirm (by reverting to permanent marriage) the marriages of those women (with whom you have performed Mut'a). And any person would come to me with a marriage of appointed duration (i.e. Mut'a) I would stone him.

Sunni references:

  • Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter CDXLII, Tradition #2801
  • Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p885, Tradition #145.

Let me know if you need more. By the way, this is NOT a Shia site (as far as I know). Also, if you want to have a discussions only with people that agree with you, this is called preaching (or lecturing), not a discussion.

Salam

 

 



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 9:41am
As usual Ali Zaki hides the truth when he brings evidence, the hadith he quoted is from the period before muta was made haram the same as with alcohol it was permited before and was made haram later. Even in shia books there is narrations from Ali ibn abi talib(ra) and other imams declaring muta as haram but as usual shia respond with that Ali(ra) and other imams where doing taqiya(lying), as reported in shia hadith imam jafar sadiq(ra) said "Nine tenths of religion(shiism) is taqiyyah(lying)"

Convincing shia to abandon temporary marriage would be very difficult sens they consider it to be divine mercy from Allah, Nauzobillah.


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 5:19pm

Mr Ali Zaki

Anything and everything can be concocted except the one and only SOURCE which Allah has promised to preserve - the QUR'AN. If I dispute with you about your sources of information and then I go and obtain similar sources of information that have been collected by Sunni scholars you are bound to oppose me. The safest and the most & only reliable grounds where each of us should agree is the Qur'an. Not a single letter from this Holy Treasure of ours has been changed. So let us rely on this and let us only rely on what has been made plain and easy for us to understand.

013.036 :Those to whom We have given the Book rejoice at what hath been revealed unto thee: but there are among the clans those who reject a part thereof. Say: "I am commanded to worship Allah, and not to join partners with Him. Unto Him do I call, and unto Him is my return."


013.037:Thus have We revealed it to be a judgment of authority in Arabic. Wert thou to follow their (vain) desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither protector nor defender against Allah.

Keeping in mind the above let us not decieve ourselves nor decieve others. Allah's curse is on those who disobey HIS commands. I have heard that Iran is tackling a HIV and AIDS epidemic. I hope this is untrue, but the possibility is there when we disregard Allah's commands. What is prohibited is prohibited. The Jews found a way about disregarding the Sabbath and we have a lesson from this. Saying permanent is better than temporary etc are mere words that were never sanctioned by Allah in the Qur'an.



Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 5:32pm

Assalam-alaikum Mr Ayyubi

Thankyou for your input and I appreciate it. Re: "as usual shia respond with that Ali(ra) and other imams where doing taqiya(lying), as reported in shia hadith imam jafar sadiq(ra) said "Nine tenths of religion(shiism) is taqiyyah(lying)" 
 I do not understand why lying is valued by Shias. Does the word "Taqiyyah" have any other meaning as they understand it?



Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 2:17am
Originally posted by Tasneem Tasneem wrote:

Assalam-alaikum Mr Ayyubi


Thankyou for your input and�I appreciate it. Re: "as usual shia respond with that Ali(ra) and other imams where doing taqiya(lying), as reported in shia hadith imam jafar sadiq(ra) said "Nine tenths of religion(shiism) is taqiyyah(lying)"��I do not understand why lying is valued by Shias. Does the word "Taqiyyah" have any other meaning as they understand it?



Taqiya linguistically mens concealing or disguising ons true belief. They say its allowed to do taqiya if one fears for his life if he tels the truth (Ali(ra) making taqiya about muta is example shia quote). The shia taqiya is special type of lying and hypocrisy from our point of view. Taqiya is an integral part of their religion as conformed by Ali zakis favorite sourse http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/ - al-islam.org

The truth is they adopted this belief of taqiya in their religion as surviving mechanism because they where always seen as heretical cult and mischief makers by muslims. Thats why you will find many hadith prising taqiya in their books here is some hadith in their books

Nine tenths of religion is taqiyyah, hence one who does not dissimulate has no religion." (Al-Kafi vol.9 p.110)

"A believer who does not dissimulate is like a body without a head." (Tafseer al-Askari)"


"Mix with them(i.e. non-shia) externally but oppose them internally." (Al-Kafi vol.9 p.116)"


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 4:47am

JazakAllahkhair Brother

I am very ignorant when it comes to these various sects and it is so unfortunate that despite having the single Book, the Source of all guidance that we have so many sects. It must be sounding odd that I play the same tune ie about reading the Qur'an and obeying Allah & His Apostle, but it is the only way to unity for the Muslims. I wish people would give up their ignorance and make time to read and understand Allah's words, rather than follow their heros.

Reading the last quote in your post reminds of a similar verse in the Qur'an, exactly what we are forbidden to do. I can't understand how anyone can be attracted to a sect/religion and support it so strongly despite not being able to make any sense of it.



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 7:23am

Salam brother Tasneem,

You asked

" I do not understand why lying is valued by Shias. Does the word "Taqiyyah" have any other meaning as they understand it? "

Here is some information on Taquiyah, which is an Islamic concept and has nothing (specifically) to do with the Shia.

Taqiyyah (definition)=  to safeguard; to defend; to fear; piety (because it saves one from the displeasure of Allah).

" He who disbelieves in Allah after his belief in Him, (is the liar) except he who is compelled while his heart remains steadfast with the faith (has nothing worry). But who opens his breast for infidelity; on these is wrath of Allah, and for them is a great torment. [1]

This verse of the Qur�an refers to the incident when 'Ammar bin Yasir (May Allah be pleased with both) had to utter some words against Islam to save himself from the Quraish*te infidels.

It clearly allows hiding one 's true faith when one is in danger of one's life. This rule is called taqiyah.

REGARDING THE PRACTICE OF TAQUIYYAH

One of the reasons that this concept is associated with the Shia (and specifically the Imams) is because (from about 80 A.H. until about 150 years ago) The ruling Caliphs made a concerted effort to kill or imprison anyone who claimed to be a Shia. As you know, all of the Imams (except the 12th Imam (may Allah hasten his return) were murdered/assasinated. Since, in Islam, we have the duty to preserve our life (and not intentionally put ourselves in danger). By practicing Taquiyyah, the Imams were able to preserve their life for a long enough time so that their grandfathers Sunnah could be dissemenated. The Shia have well-defined methods of determining when the Imams (or other Shia) were practicing Taquiyya.

REGARDING RELIANCE ON QURAN ALONE

I find your argument strange (if you are a Sunni) as the word Sunni derives from the people of the "Sunna" of the prophet. As you know, the Holy Quran is (primarily) a book of religious principles and general guidance. If we ignore the "Sunnah"  (customs, traditions, etc.) of our Holy Messenger, then we would not even be sure about the exact method of prayer, which is wajib for all Muslims.

In fact, we must depend on the traditions of the Holy Prophet to understand Quran, as testified by the Holy Quran itself,

Even as We have sent among you an Apostle from among you who recites to you Our com­munications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know (2 :151).

In addition, it is not possible even to understand Quran without the assistance of those who are "firmly rooted in knowledge" (3 :7), which refers to the Ahly Al-Bayt as testified in the "Hadith of Thaqanayn"

"I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah (The Quran)  and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahl al-Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you."

SOURCE: This hadith is recorded in al-Tirmidhi's Sahih, in Muslim's Sahih, in al-Hakim's Mustadrak al-Sahihayn, in Ahmad's Musnad, in al-Nasa'i's Khasais, in Ibn Sa`d's Tabaqat, and by the books of al-Tabrani, al-Suyuti, Ibn Hajar, Ibn al-Athir, and many others

Salam



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 10:03pm

Wa-alaikum-Salaam

Mr Ali Zaki you wrote: REGARDING RELIANCE ON QURAN ALONE

I find your argument strange (if you are a Sunni) as the word Sunni derives from the people of the "Sunna" of the prophet. As you know, the Holy Quran is (primarily) a book of religious principles and general guidance. If we ignore the "Sunnah"  (customs, traditions, etc.) of our Holy Messenger, then we would not even be sure about the exact method of prayer, which is wajib for all Muslims.

You find my argument strange because you have not understood what I mean by following the Qur�an alone. When you follow the Qur�an alone you should follow every message that Allah has conveyed to you without choosing what you wish to follow and what you wish to leave out. Allah has made it very clear to us in the Qur�an that we must follow His Apostle Muhammad (SAW):

 

058.020: Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be among those most humiliated

 

058.021: Allah has decreed: "It is I and My messengers who must prevail": For Allah is One full of strength, able to enforce His Will.

 

065.011: A  Messenger, who rehearses to you the Signs of Allah containing clear explanations, that he may lead forth those who believe and do righteous deeds from the depths of Darkness into Light. And those who believe in Allah and work righteousness, He will admit to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: Allah has indeed granted for them a most excellent Provision.

 

From the above it is clear that we cannot follow the Qur�an without following the Messenger of Allah. We conduct our lives in accordance to the teachings of the messenger of Allah without whom we would be lost. The majority of the Hadith pertaining to all the fard are from those who were closest to him during his lifetime.

 

Regarding the repeated claim which is often said that we need scholars to understand the Qur�an refutes these verses in the Qur�an:

 

002.121: Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own.

 

047.024: Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?

047.025: Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes.

036.069: We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear:

 

003.007: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

 

As long as we obey the word of Allah completely as ordained for us in the Qur�an and follow the Messenger of Allah, we would be one Ummah.

 

We fall into divisions only when we start further derivations by saying that we need scholars to understand the Qur�an. Despite, Allah saying that He has made the Qur�an easy for us to follow and each one of us He has blessed with a mind to understand, we look out for sources that at times take us away from following His commands. If one  has all the time, energy and the resources to look up the derivations of all the scholars then make up his/her own mind based upon ones own learning of the Qur�an , the likelihood of that person following into error would be minimised because he knows what is there in the Qur�an and he would look to find if what he is being taught by the scholar conforms to the Message Allah has for him in the Qur�an. Scholars do assist us in understanding the Qur�an but complete reliance on scholars without using our minds in my opinion would be to our own loss.

 

The Sunnis follow some scholars who are not acceptable to the Shias and the Shias follow some scholars who are not acceptable to the sunnis. We have to realise that these scholars are human beings and are fallible. More often than not Allah has advised us to obey His commands as enunciated in the Qur�an and to obey His Messenger, we have not been told to look out for scholars to understand the Qur�an.

When I do not find anything in the Qur�an or from the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) relating to the observance of mourning during Moharram with further exaggeration by �matam� which seems to rule the lives of Shias, the temporary marriage contract etc, I believe the Shias have no one but themselves to blame, because AlhamdulIllah the Qur�an is available to everyone of us and translators and scholars (May Allah bless them) have translated it into almost every language, so we have no excuse.



Posted By: midway
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 4:56pm

 

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

Dear brother Ali Zaki,

 

 

You stated: Our current leader is Imam Mahdi (May Allah hasten his return). Since you asked a direct question, this is the direct answer and more information can be provided upon request.�

 

Excuse my ignorance, but does your statement �(May Allah hasten his return)� mean that (the Shia version of) Imam Mahdi has already lived here on earth? (I assume you are not talking about Isa {AS})

 

 

You seem to be a good man, hence please do not take any personal offence in the following questions, I simply ask them as I have a few doubts about Shia Muslim�s�..

 

What do you think of the fact that Shia�s �worship� the shrine of Imam Ali {AS}.

 

May I also ask you what you think about the �self beating  & mourning� that Shia�s partake in?

 

Kind regards

nadir

 



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 21 June 2005 at 7:16am

Alakum Salam Midway,

All respectfully phrased questions are welcomed! Only those who have something to hide are afraid of being questioned!

As for your first question, the reference of Imam Mahdi (may Allah hasten his return) does NOT refer to Nabi Isa (a.s.), although we (like the Sunni) believe he will return to the earthly plane of existence at the same time as the Imam.

Here are some traditions (from Shia collections of Hadith) regarding the Qaim (the Awaited One).

"Fatima Zahra told her son Husayn:

When I gave birth to you, the Prophet came to see me. He took you in his hands and said to me: "O Fatima, take your Husayn, and know that he is the father of nine Imams. From his descendants will appear righteous leaders among whom the ninth will be the Qa'im."

Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 2, p. 552.

Husayn b. 'Ali said:

Twelve Imams will be from among us. The first among them will be 'Ali b. Abi Talib and the last will be my ninth descendant, the rightful Qa'im. Because of his blessed existence God will bring back the dead earth to life and prosperity. God will give victory to His religion over all other religions, even if this be against the liking of the disbelievers. The Mahdi will disappear from public for a while. During his occultation a number of people will abandon religion, whereas others will remain steadfast and will suffer because of their faith. This latter group will be asked tauntingly: "If your belief is true, when would your promised Imam rise?" But, remember that whoever perseveres under those unfavorable circumstances when enemies would falsify and harm them, their status will be like those who fought by the side of the Prophet in defending the religion of God."

Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 133.

For a complete listing of similar hadith, see the following site: http://al-islam.org/mahdi/nontl/Chap-2.htm - http://al-islam.org/mahdi/nontl/Chap-2.htm

The Shia belief is that the 12th Imam has already been born (i.e., was the son of the 11th Imam, Imam Hasan 'Askari (a.s.)) and is currently absent from the earthly plane of existence (i.e., in occultation).

Regarding you second question ("What do you think of the fact that Shia�s �worship� the shrine of Imam Ali {AS}.") this is a common misconception among non-Shia. The Shia do not worship anything other than Allah (s.w.a.), and do not associate any partners for him. The Shia do, however, has a strong spritual feeling for/connection with Imam Ali (a.s.) and do believe that the Imams are "alive" ("Do not imagine those who have been killed in God's path to be dead; rather they are alive and receive sustenance in the presence of their Lord" (3:169).) and can be "visited" (i.e., Ziara), however, this does not mean they have some type of physical presence at their shrines. In fact, one can perform Ziara from anywhere, however, it is preferable for the worshiper to "visit" them at their shrine for obvious reasons. The Prophet (a.s.) and the Imams were only loyal and obiedient servents of Allah (s.w.a.), as they said themselves, and were given their lofty stature only by the will of Allah (s.w.a.)

Regarding your third question, this is also very common. If you would like to know more about why the Shia commemorate the death of Imam Husayn (a.s.), and it's importance there are many comprehensive references. In short, the purpose of the mourning of the death of Imam Husayn is an everlasting lesson of what it means to "enjoin the good and forbid the evil".

" Mahmoud Ayoub in his study of the devotional aspects of 'Ashura', Redemptive Suffering in Islam, justifiably interprets the Imam's message to Muslims as a call for enjoining good and prohibiting evil. In a will he made to Muhammad ibn Hanafiyyah while departing from Makkah, the Imam declares: 

Indeed, I have not risen up to do mischief, neither as an adventurer, nor to cause corruption and tyranny. I have risen up solely to seek the reform of the Ummah of my grandfather (S). I want to command what is good and stop what is wrong, and (in this) I follow the conduct of my grandfather and my father, 'Ali ibn Abi Talib.

In a letter that he wrote to the people of Kufah, in a short sentence he outlines the Islamic concept of a worthy ruler: 

By my life, the leader is one who acts in accordance with the Scripture, upholds justice in society, conducts its affairs according to what is righteous, and dedicates his self to God. Was-salam."

SOURCE: http://al-islam.org/al-tawhid/default.asp?url=paradigm-akhtar.htm - http://al-islam.org/al-tawhid/default.asp?url=paradigm-akhta r.htm

If you would like to know more about this subject, I recommend http://al-islam.org/short/Karbala.htm - http://al-islam.org/short/Karbala.htm

As for the "beating" or "self-multilation", these are mainly cultural, not religious practices that have particular significance to the way in which mourning is carried out in various cultures. Islam does not prohibit cultural practices, unless they disagree with Islam. The Shia Ulama unanimously agree that is haram to injure yourself, and this also applies to mourning for Imam Hussein (a.s.).

Salam



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 25 June 2005 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

Deducing rulings or meanings from the Qur�an
Answered by Sidi Hamza Karamali    

Can regular Muslims who are not scholars read the translation of the Quran and deduce/conclude from it? if not, how are we to benefit from the meaning of the Quran? or should we not read the translation at all?

In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate

Knowing the meaning of what one is reciting is undoubtedly praiseworthy because it helps one read the Qur'an with focus of mind presence of heart. Without knowing what one is reciting, it is difficult to bring into practice verses of the Qur'an that describe the believers as "increasing in faith" (Anfal:2) or "shivering" (Zumar:23) when verses of the Qur'an are recited to them. Reading a good tafsir is especially helpful in this regard. Probably the best tafsir available in English is Ma`arif ul-Qur'an, by the late Mufti Muhammad Shafi` (may Allah have mercy on him), available from http://www.alrashad.com/ - www.alrashad.com .

As for deducing particular fiqh rulings from the Qur'an, this is the domain of specialists. If one needs to know Allah's ruling regarding a particular aspect of one's daily life--such as the prayer, the fast, or other matters--one must refer to the scholars of fiqh, not to one's own understanding of the Qur'an. Allah told us in the Qur'an, "Ask those who know well if you know not."

A good article to read on this topic is: http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm - Sidi Hamza Karamali at all. Actually it directly tells him that he is wrong.

http://www.free-minds.org/quran/?T=PM&S=54#18 - 54:17 And We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
http://www.free-minds.org/quran/?T=PM&S=54#23 - 54:22 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?
http://www.free-minds.org/quran/?T=PM&S=54#33 - 54:32 We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
http://www.free-minds.org/quran/?T=PM&S=54#41 - 54:40 We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?

Quote
http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/87/7" title="Click to see all translations - 87:6 We will make you study, so do not forget.
http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/87/8" title="Click to see all translations - 87:7 Except for what God wills, He knows what is declared and what is hidden.
http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/87/9" title="Click to see all translations - 87:8 And We will make easy for you the way.
http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/87/10" title="Click to see all translations - 87:9 So remind, perhaps the reminder will help.


http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/87/10" title="Click to see all translations - 25:1 Blessed is He who sent down THE CRITERIA to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures

http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/87/10" title="Click to see all translations - 39:23 God has revealed the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, CONSISTENT WITH ITSELF repeating itself in various ways

http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/87/10" title="Click to see all translations - 6:114 Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, EXPLAINED IN DETAIL.

http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/87/10" title="Click to see all translations - 44:2 By the Book that makes THINGS CLEAR

And so on and so forth, i just took the ones i remembered.

So as much as i respect people who spend a lot of time to study the scripture, they arent infallible.

As for the original question at hand. There are so many sects in Islam now its a discrace. And im told that i belong to one aswell. Thats odd, i never went to any meetings or anything. We are a group of muslims who argue that the Quran was all that Mohammad (saws) came with.

Peace
TnE




Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 26 June 2005 at 2:40am
A very good and meaningful post TnE - Noah. Well done. I wish I could be as articulate.


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 6:21am

Salam to Noah,

Br. Noah, I have a few questions for you.

1.) Are you fluent in Arabic (speaking and writing formal Arabic) ?

If the answer is no, then you are not reading Quran, but someones subjective opinion about how the words and concepts which were revealed in Arabic can be translated to a different language. This is important to consider.

2.) Are you familiar with the difference between the mohkam (clear, unambigious verses) and the mutashabihat (ambigious verses) in Quran?

3.) When you read an Ayat of Quran, do you know if it was revealed in Mecca or Medina?

4.) Do you know if the Ayat you are reading is specific (i.e., meant to address the Muslims regarding a specific situation) or general?

5.) Do you know if the verse has been abrogated, and the abrogating verse?

These are just some of the basic "pre-requisites" to understand the meaning of any particular ayat. Without this information, you may have an incorrect understanding of the meaning, scope and context of what you are reading.

For those of us (like me) who lack this knowledge, we must depend on scholars for guidance. This is just a practical issue, as if we had time we could all learn these things and become a scholar ourselves. The difference between the Muslims doctrine of scholarship, and the Catholic priesthood is this. Preists are an intercessor between the layman and God, Islamic scholars do not serve this function. The function they (Islamic Scholars) serve is similar to "Google", i.e., that you can get a specific answer to a specific question (query) without having to familiarize yourself with all of the intricate details of how this information was obtained and processed.

Salam



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 11:46am
wa aleykum salam wr wb br. Ali

Quote

1.) Are you fluent in Arabic (speaking and writing formal Arabic) ?

If the answer is no, then you are not reading Quran, but someones subjective opinion about how the words and concepts which were revealed in Arabic can be translated to a different language. This is important to consider.


Not if you go with translitteral translations, all the avaible encyclopedia and arab langauge tools avaible, and make up your own mind. Its the same way i learned about king gilgamehs and the finds they did regarding him. The clay tablets are in kuneform. Do i speak that or know how to read it par se?? nobody does! Do we know what it says? yes we do. Language is a tool and nothing else. And as with any other tool, if you understand the basic principle of it, you can operate it at a satisfying level, the rest is mastering it.

Quote 2.) Are you familiar with the difference between the mohkam (clear, unambigious verses) and the mutashabihat (ambigious verses) in Quran?

Absolutely.

Quote �He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are firm verses; they are the mother of the book; and others which are of a similarity. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is of a similarity from it seeking to make an ordeal, and seeking to derive its interpretation. But none know its interpretation except GOD and those who are well founded in knowledge. They say: 'we have faith in it, all is from our Lord'. And none will remember except the people of understanding.� (3:7)

God told me. And if im to prove a point regarding translation. Here are 5 translation, the translitteral and the original wording.

Quote Transliteration Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi waokharu mutashabihatun faamma allatheena fee quloobihim zayghun fayattabiAAoona ma tashabaha minhu ibtighaa alfitnati waibtighaa ta/weelihi wama yaAAlamu ta/weelahu illa Allahu waalrrasikhoona fee alAAilmi yaqooloona amanna bihi kullun min AAindi rabbina wama yaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi

Y.Ali:
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: 'We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:' and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Pickthal: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

Shakir
: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Literal:
He is who descended on you The Book , from it (are) perfected/tightened verses, they are (F) The Book's origin/mother , and others resembling/ambiguous/obscure , so but those who in their hearts/minds (is) deviation from truth , so they follow what resembled from it, asking/desiring the treason and asking/desiring its interpretation/explanation , and none knows its interpretation/explanation except God. And the affirmed in the knowledge , they say: "We believed with it, all/each (is) from at our Lord, and none remember/mention except (those) of the pure minds/intelligence ."

And finally a pretty good translation made by progressivemuslims

Quote http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/3/8" title="Click to see all translations - 3:8 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are resolute verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge, they Say: "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.

Dont let anyone tell you that Gods message is not easily understood in any language. And if you do your homework, you will realise that these translations arent half bad. Check the literal for yourself.

As for what Gods attitude is towards playing the language game just like the catholic church did by forcing latin on everybody. He knew upfront that this would be the case.

"If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, 'If only its verses were made clear!. Can it be Arabic and non-Arabic?'. Say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway." (41:44)

Altso, Mohammad (Gbh) came to a people who never had a warner before him, so naturally arab was chosen as it was the language spoken by this people. Not because arabs was superior or anything like it.

No language is any holier than another.

And among his signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the variations in your languages and colours. Certainly, in that there are signs for the knowledgeable. [30:22]

All of the languages of mankind are among the signs of God.

Mankind was one community.. [2:213],

and thus had one language. All languages can be traced back to the comprehensive (kullahaa) prototype language of descriptions/names (al-asmaa�a) taught to Adam by God.

And He taught Adam the names, all of them..[2:31].

By means of being the Teacher of language to humans He is thus also, the Teacher of the recitation [55:3].

He taught him explanation /elucidation /clearness (al-bayaana) [55:4].

A general characteristic of all languages is making things clear.

God is ..The One who teaches with the pen. He teaches the human what he didn�t know [96:4-5].

This is talking about the use of pen in general terms throughout all humanity. The use of the pen in language, writing descriptions (al-asmaa�a), teaches the human what he didn�t know. In [8:31] Adam was taught the names while the angels hadn�t yet been taught them and were asked by God to communicate to Him (anbi�uwnee) the names.

They said, Glory be to you, we have no knowledge except what you have taught us..[2:32].

Adam, the human, taught by God by means of the pen (written language) what he didn�t know, was now asked by God to communicate to the angels (anbi�hum) the names (al-asmaa�a) that they didn�t have knowledge of. Thus, through the use of the pen Adam communicated the meaning of the names to the angels.
(thanks to Neil Maybanks who did the foot work on this)

It is pretty obvious, that language is merely a tool for us to use, but yes. Admitted. It takes time.

Quote 3.) When you read an Ayat of Quran, do you know if it was revealed in Mecca or Medina?

No, and i fail to see why it is important.

Quote 4.) Do you know if the Ayat you are reading is specific (i.e., meant to address the Muslims regarding a specific situation) or general?

Im unsure what you are asking brother, Could you give me an example?

Quote 5.) Do you know if the verse has been abrogated, and the abrogating verse?

According to?

Quote For those of us (like me) who lack this knowledge, we must depend on scholars for guidance.


Or... you can obtain the required knowledge and do your own thinking.
There are a mountain of refference works avaible. Not only that, its your duty to do so brother.

�Do they not ponder the Quran?. Or do they have locks on their hearts?� (47:24)

�And We have cited for mankind in this Quran of every example, but most of mankind refuse to be anything but a rejecter!.� (17:89)

Peace
Noah




Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 6:34pm

Mr Ali Zaki

You wrote: For those of us (like me) who lack this knowledge, we must depend on scholars for guidance. This is just a practical issue, as if we had time we could all learn these things and become a scholar ourselves. The difference between the Muslims doctrine of scholarship, and the Catholic priesthood is this. Preists are an intercessor between the layman and God, Islamic scholars do not serve this function. The function they (Islamic Scholars) serve is similar to "Google", i.e., that you can get a specific answer to a specific question (query) without having to familiarize yourself with all of the intricate details of how this information was obtained and processed.

Why is it that you differentiate between the scholars then? Had you followed the same scholars that the main stream Muslims depend upon whose collections of the hadith we follow and the translations and interpretatons of the Qur'an we follow, then there would not have been any difference between your sect and the main stream Muslims. The difference and the breaking up of the Muslim ummah into sects is only because of the dependence upon scholars of ones liking. The Shia scholars lead you to a path different from that of a Sunni scholar. What makes you so confident that you are on the right path?

Scholars are many and they are nothing but human beings likely to err. Allah has given us all a mind to think and the first ayat was "Iqraa", and the Book is only ONE the "QUR'AN".

067.008: Almost bursting with fury: Every time a Group is cast therein, its Keepers will ask, "Did no Warner come to you?"

067.009: They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, 'Allah never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!'"

067.010: They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"

The Message of Allah is in His Book which He has promised to protect from corruption. The Message was delivered to us through His Messenger Mohammed (PBUH) who we have been ordered to obey. His Message should be taken as a whole not broken down into shreds, choosing what suits us and leaving others.

The Shia scholars have taught their followers practises contrary to the teachings of the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an has the practise of mourning been advocated which so rules the lives of the Shias. Temporary marriage has never been advocated and giving Ali the status of a prophet or more than Mohammed (PBUH) has never been said anywhere. How can one go against the will of Allah and yet insist they or on the right path?



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 6:20am

Dear Br. Tasneem,

We are talking about apples and oranges now!

I will avoid unneccessary details, and try to answer you simply and directly.

" Why is it that you differentiate between the scholars then? Had you followed the same scholars that the main stream Muslims depend upon whose collections of the hadith we follow and the translations and interpretatons of the Qur'an we follow, then there would not have been any difference between your sect and the main stream Muslims."

I will not quote (again) the numerous hadith (and Ayat) that I have previously quoted, however, needless to say that fact that relicance on (and obedience to) Ahly Al'Bayt is neccessary for our guidance is well established. The reason that I don't follow the majority is because the majority have neglected to follow the orders of the Holy Messenger (a.s.) regarding love and obidience to his Ahly Al'Bayt. Authority (in all affairs) belongs only to Allah (s.w.a.), and his Holy Messenger (a.s.) and the Uhl Al'Amr (those who give charity while in Rukoo, and those of this caliber, namely Imam Ali (a.s.)). The scholars are only the representatives of Uhl Al'Amr. The open mind can easily see and understand this, no "pre-requisites" needed.

" giving Ali the status of a prophet or more than Mohammed (PBUH) has never been said anywhere. "

Again, brother, you show the true aim of your posts (i.e., to create doubt and discredit the Shia). This lie (and similar ones, such as two Qurans, etc.) have been refuted over and over again (on this site and for hundreds of years by millions of other Shia) and yet they continue to be repeated. Bring your evidence that the Shia beleive this (if you are sincere).



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 2:39pm

Br Ali Zaki

When a Muslim is in trouble as well as during good times he/she calls Allah and seeks His help,forgiveness & expresses gratitude. I have more often seen and heard Shia's saying "Ya, Ali"! What does this mean? What status have they given Ali? Is it not shirk?

My aim is not to discredit anyone, but to show you and and anyone else that may be attracted to the Shia sect that you are turning a blind eye to the truth. The absolute truth is only in the Qur'an, but more often you bring up all the most unfamiliar names and who will only take us away from the truth. How neatly you have avoided the last para of my previous post. I am talking about the shia practises that are against the Qur'an. When someone follows such practises should I support Shiaism?



Posted By: midway
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 5:39pm

 

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

Dear Ali Zaki,

 

If I may, I would like to start by quoting a Hadith I read within the link you included:

'Ali b. Husayn said:

The birth of our Qa'im will be hidden from the people in such a way that they will assert: "He has not been born at all!" The reason for his concealment is that when he begins his revolution he will have no one's allegiance on his neck. http://al-islam.org/mahdi/nontl/#n23 - [23]

 

I have quoted this Hadith as reverts embrace Islam in a similar position (ie when he begins his revolution he will have no one's allegiance on his neck), hence please do not think that I question you as an enemy of Shia Muslim�s, rather I am a person seeking clarity.

 

 

With regards to my question on the worship of the shrine of Imam Ali {AS} - I have seen (TV) footage of Shia�s partaking in the act of - circumambulation (around the shrine of Imam Ali {AS}). This circumambulation is similar to what a Muslim would partake in during Hajj (ie around the Holy Kaba).

 

I have contemplated from where this action originated and have arrived at a conclusion � Shia Muslim�s perceive that non-Shia�s are upon innovation (as non-Shia perceive Shia�s to be upon innovation). This has led to Shia�s been somewhat isolated from the Holy Land (ie Mecca & Medina) where non-Shia�s hold dominion. Hence Shia�s congregate at the shrine of Imam Ali {AS}, as at least here (in �Shia territory�) they are able to come and go as they please, and have somewhere they can consider - belongs to them.

 

           

With regards to the annual remembrance of the passing of Imam Husayn {AS}, I am sure that you will find for everyday of the year, a family somewhere will have lost someone dear to them, hence if you commemorate the passing of one person, you open the door to others commemorating the passing of someone even more dear to them (on a personal level) than Imam Husayn {AS}, So once you start such annual remembrance/commemoration where does it end?

 

Do you commemorate the passing of Muhammad {SAW}? And if not - why not? For surely he is more dear to you than �� This is the reason why I perceive the practice to be nothing more than a form of idol worship, hence I condone this action, and cannot possibly justify or support it.

 

 

I am hopeful you will respect that none of what I have stated here is designed (as a means) to oust Shia�s from the Islamic faith, for I respect Shia Muslims and am sure many of you are very kind & caring people, I only say such things as I disagree with these particular actions, and my caring heart sincerely hopes that you abstain from such practices - for the good of Islam as a whole. 

 

Whether you adhere to this advice (or not) is something I am unable to control, and I do not wish to get into an argument about these matters.

    

 



Posted By: aservant
Date Posted: 29 June 2005 at 6:16am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki Ali Zaki wrote:

" giving Ali the status of a prophet or more than Mohammed (PBUH) has never been said anywhere. "

Again, brother, you show the true aim of your posts (i.e., to create doubt and discredit the Shia).  Bring your evidence that the Shia beleive this (if you are sincere).

Dear Ali Zaki

How many proofs you want?  There are hundreds. I will give only a few which are easily accessable for everyone.

1)))  Check web site of shias   http://www.tabarra.com/AliunWali%20ullah.htm - "the main difference between Shi�ism and other sects is the acceptance of Wilayat-e- Moula Ali (as) so where ever we give the first 2 testimonies ( i.e. Touheed & Risalat ) we should immediately give the 3rd testimony, the wilayat of Moula Ali (as) and all shias believe that the Third testimony ( Ali un wali ullah ) is just as necessary as the first 2 testimonies.".

2)))  Check this site  http://al-islam.org/leadership/  where imam is someone who has all the virtues and all the attributes.

"The Imam is utterly free of sin and pure of all fault. He is celebrated for his knowledge and his forebearance. His existence is a source of pride to the Muslims, of anger to the hypocrites, of perdition to the unbelievers. The Imam is unique in his age, in the sense that no one can attain his rank. No scholar can come within range of his knowledge, and he is unequalled in all his qualities. He possesses all virtues and worthy attributes without any striving on his part, and he is adorned with all lofty characteristics. This is a great gift bestowed on him by God in His generosity."

But dear Ali Zaki, it is only Allah who possesses all the attributes.  So you are actually raising an imam to the level of Allah.

3)))  In al-Kulayni, al-Kafi, Vol. I, p.256 it is written �God entrusted some of His mysteries to Jibril, and he conveyed them to Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, who in turn informed of them whomsoever he wished." 

Dear Ali Zaki, was Jibril also coming to the family of the prophet?

4)))  The site   http://al-islam.org/leadership/ - http://al-islam.org/leadership/  says that �The Noble Qur'an declares with the utmost clarity that God Almighty gives knowledge of the unseen to chosen servants such as the prophets in various ages. The Immaculate Imams can also make contact with the world of the unseen whenever necessary by seeking God's aid and support and thereby gain access to knowledge they need�.

Dear Ali Zaki, is this not that you are making your imams even superior to Prophets?  The Prophets had to wait for the knowledge to come to them at many occasions but your imams can have that whenever necessary.

5)))  Then check this site   http://al-islam.org/masoom/bios/1stimam.html - "Imam Ali and the Ancient Prophets

1.

God gave Adam the knowledge of His names, while Ali held the entire knowledge of the Book of Allah.

2.

Adam was married with Eve in the Garden of Paradise, while God married Imam Ali (as) with Fatima (as) in heaven

3.

God styled Noah as a "Grateful Creature" and he was called the Second Adam, while Imam Ali (as) was styled as "Abu'l Ummah"

4.

God made Abraham the "Imam" or the "Leaders of men", while Imam Ali (as) was the Imam of all creation, men and Jinnis

5.

Moses was brought up in the house of Pharoah, while Imam Ali (as) was brought up in the house of the Prophet (PBUH&HF)

6.

Moses threw his rod which became a serpent, whereas Imam Ali (as), while still in the cradle, cleaved the snake into two

7.

Moses name has been mentioned 230 times in the Quran, while Imam Ali's (as) has been referred to in 300 places in the Quran

... and many many more"

Dear Ali Zaki, this is a clear insult of all the prophets of Allah. (Astaghfirullah)

How many more examples do you need to prove that you are raising the status not only of  Ali (ra) but of all the imams even superior to the prophets of Allah?  Do you need any more proofs?  I have many more of them.

 

May Allah guide you.

 

A well wisher

 



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 29 June 2005 at 7:02am

Salam to aservent,

Thank you for citing your sources, now the real discussion can begin!

1.) "the main difference between Shi�ism and other sects is the acceptance of Wilayat-e- Moula Ali (as) so where ever we give the first 2 testimonies ( i.e. Touheed & Risalat ) we should immediately give the 3rd testimony, the wilayat of Moula Ali (as) and all shias believe that the Third testimony ( Ali un wali ullah ) is just as necessary as the first 2 testimonies.".

This statement implies that the Shia have changed the shahada (the proffesion of faith in Islam) The shia have never claimed that "Ali un wali Allah" is part of the shahadda by which a person accepts Islam. I have witnessed (quite a few times) a person who says the shahadda in a Shia community, and this phrase is not included, nor does anyone try to include it. Shia commonly say the testimony in the way you described, however, it is for a reason other then what is claimed.

The reason for making the statement (Ali un wali Allah) among the Shia is to emphasize the CENTRAL importance of the concept of Immate as a pillar of faith. Our Sunni brothers often mistake this as an "elevation" of Imam Ali (a.s.) as a person, however, it is (more precisely) and elevation of the CONCEPT of the Immate. If you would like to discuss this further, I would prefer to discuss why the Shia include Immate as a pillar of Islamic belief, as the qualities and merits of Imam Ali (a.s.) are well known to anyone who has not been blinded by hatred. 

2.) "The Imam is utterly free of sin and pure of all fault. He is celebrated for his knowledge and his forebearance. His existence is a source of pride to the Muslims, of anger to the hypocrites, of perdition to the unbelievers. The Imam is unique in his age, in the sense that no one can attain his rank. No scholar can come within range of his knowledge, and he is unequalled in all his qualities. He possesses all virtues and worthy attributes without any striving on his part, and he is adorned with all lofty characteristics. This is a great gift bestowed on him by God in His generosity."

... So you are actually raising an imam to the level of Allah. (May Allah forgive you for that statement)

In regards to what you quote from my favorite website, I will let the quote stand on it's own (as it is a true and accurate reflection of Shia belief regarding the status of the Imam). As for your commentary, it is ridiculous and non-sensical and I will not comment on it at all. Anyone who knows anything about mainstream Shia doctrine (even if they are a Sunni) would never make such a statement.

3.) REGARDING the merits of Imam Ali (a.s.) in comparison to other prophets (a.s. to them all).

I don't see how this is an insult to anyone (unless you dispute the facts of the statement, which you didn't mention). ALL SHIA recognize the authority of and send blessings to all of the Prophets (a.s.). The question of whether someone is (for example) superior to someone else because he is mention more often in Quran is a statement of opinion, and not fact. As a result, we can legitimately criticize the factual statements made, however, the opinion of the author is his own opinion. I have never seen a hadith in Shia books from the Prophet (a.s.)

The role and status of an Imam is different then a messenger (Prophet). The Holy Messenger (a.s.) was both a prophet and an Imam. This is why noone claims that Imam Ali (a.s.) is above the Holy Messenger (a.s.), as Imam Ali (a.s.) was NOT a prophet. However, there are some prophets which were NOT given Immamate, and the status of an Imam is higher then a prophet who was not given Immate. 

"  Imam is a leader who guides by a Divine Command, which is closely associated with him. The imamah, in its esoteric sense, is al‑wilayah (guardianship, authority) over the people in their actions and activities; and its guidance entails conveying them to the final destination by the command of Allah. It is different from that guidance which only shows the way ‑ and which is usually done by the prophets and messengers of Allah as well as by other believers who guide the people towards Allah with sincere exhortation and good advice. "

For a more detailed discussion of this, and proof from Quran, see http://www.almizan.org/Tafseer/baqarah28.asp - http://www.almizan.org/Tafseer/baqarah28.asp

Salam



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: aservant
Date Posted: 29 June 2005 at 8:57am

Dear Ali Zaki

 

Your reply has now openly reviled you in front of me.  Now I understand that you are just following the desires of your heart which is full of hate for all except Ali (ra).  Your replies are not only off the point but are inconsistent with your previous statements.

 

In reply to my this quote:

"the main difference between Shi�ism and other sects is the acceptance of Wilayat-e- Moula Ali (as) so where ever we give the first two testimonies ( i.e. Touheed & Risalat ) we should immediately give the third testimony, the wilayat of Moula Ali (as) and all shias believe that the Third testimony ( Ali un wali ullah ) is just as necessary as the first two testimonies.".

 

you said that �The shia have never claimed that "Ali un wali Allah" is part of the shahadda�.  But dear Zaki, the above statement clearly says that the third testimony is JUST AS NECESSARY AS THE FIRST TOW TESTIMONIES.  Dear Zaki you are just trying to hide your distorted belief from us.

 

In reply to my quote about imams �He possesses all virtues and worthy attributes� you said that it is ridiculous and non-sensical to think that your are raising the level of imam equal to Allah.  Dear Zaki tell me that did Allah not say that all the worthy attributes are for Allah?  Did he say that all the worthy attributes are for him and for imams?

 

In reply of my quote �the merits of Imam Ali (a.s.) in comparison to other prophets (as)� you have actually admitted the totally misguided philosophy of shiaism by saying that:

 

�the status of an Imam is higher than a prophet who was not given Immate�

 

astaghfirullah, astaghfirullah, astaghfirullah.

 

And last one point is that you were trying to hide your real face from the people in this forum.  But Allah has now exposed it for all of us.  In my previous question when I asked that why shia use abusive language for Abu Bakar (ra), Omer (ra), Usman (ra), Aisha (ra) and others, your reply was:

 

�Some of the Shia go too far in this, and I believe it is wrong.�

 

In this reply you tried to show that you are not one of them.  But Allah has exposed your real face now.

 

In your present reply you said that:

 

�In regards to what you quote from my favorite website ����

 

Will you please tell all the people in this forum that what is actually this your �favorite� website?  Surely you will not tell this because still you will try to hide your real face.  But I will not hide this.  This is a website which clearly and openly uses THE MOST DIRTY LANGUAGE for the companions and wife of the holy prophet peace be upon him.  You tried to hide your real face from people by saying that you are not one of them who use dirty language but dear Zaki your FAVORITE website says:

 

�Easy way to get janat, Say all the time � Allah hum la un Abu Bakar, Umar, Usman, Muaweyah.�

 

�Enemies of Ahlul-Bayt - Lanat Abu Baker - Lanat Umar - Lanat Usman - lanat on Muaweyah- Lanat on Yazeed.� http://www.idara.info/molaali/copyright/download/Bur%20Umar%20Lanat.rm - these are only two examples of the hundreds of dirty statements on your FAVORITE website. 

 

I am sorry dear Ali Zakir, you real face is now open to all of us.  You are surely one of those who use or like to use the awfully dirty language for the companions of prophet peace be upon him.

 

May Allah guide you.

 

A well wisher.


Posted By: hkrespect
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 3:09am

this whole business of cursing the companions is messed up.

Ali r.a is a beautiful, courageous, strong sahabah.

Ali r.a has no rank close to a prophet.

the Ahlu bayth we love, the shia have no monopoly on this.

i see alot of similiarities between shia and catholics in their blind devotion to imaams.

 



-------------
hk


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 5:31am

May Allah guide everyone of us to the right path and i really fear for those who come to this site looking to know about Islam. Br/Sr aservant thankyou very much for your post. I am just waking up to the enemy within. Mr Ali Zaki is very eager to respond to the newcomers with his knowledge and quite often referring them to his favourite website. I have no intention of going to that website. The website that has blatant lies even about the Qur'an. I can't believe they have said as you quote:

Moses name has been mentioned 230 times in the Quran, while Imam Ali's (as) has been referred to in 300 places in the Quran

This is most shocking. How can they make up such lies! Even manipulating the Qur'an!  Allah, save us all. I have heard of a hadith that as we move closer to the judgement day, following Islam will become very difficult, like walking on a bed of thorns. Who can you trust? People who call themselves Muslims, are actually so far away from Islam. I fear for myself and for everyone else. May Allah save us.



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 6:05am

Salam alakum Brother aservent and Tasneem,

May Allah (s.w.a.) guide you (and me) to the straight path.

You are found of trying to uncover people, and expose what is in their hearts. Brother, only Allah (s.w.a.) knows the heart of a person or his true motivations. When we both stand on the day of judgement, we will both be asked about how we treated the Ahly Al'Bayt of the Prophet (a.s.) If we say that we loved BOTH the Ahly Al'Bayt and those who FOUGHT AGAINST THEM (some secretly, others openly), then this answer will not be accepted, and Allah (s.w.a.) will look at our deeds.

The distorted version of history that I have heard from some on this website, as well as seen on Sunni websites is incorrect. If you need proof of this, read ANY books that are not written from a narrow ideological perspective and maybe your eyes will be opened. The fact that I have not condemned some individuals does not mean that they have not condemned themselves by their own clear and public words and actions which are well documented. Another reason is, in my experience, if certain people which the Sunni revere are condemned then the Sunni brother/sister that you are speaking with will ignore everything else you have said and stop listening. This is a result of 1400 years of distortions that cannot be easily corrected.

I am not trying to hide anything (nor have I read every document on al-Islam.org) However, I can tell you that taken AS A WHOLE, it presents the most clear and comprehensive picture of Shia beliefs that I have seen. Give me any website and I can take phrases out of context (without even giving the reference to the page) and instigate others towards hatred of a group (or individuals). As for me (personally), I would rather talk about facts then condemning people.

I am not here to condemn anyone. My purpose is only to point to the problem of leadership in the Muslim Umma today and point others toward the solution that the Prophet (a.s.) has given us, which is love and OBIEDIENCE to the Ahly Al'Bayt. Love without obedience is just words.

Salam



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 6:38am
Love and OBEDIENCE i something shia never gave to ahlul-bayt. they only brought disaster and pain to ahlul-bayt. I can bring you many references from shia books where ahlul-bayt call you pretenders, hypocrites and liers. Its was shia who deceived and betrayed Hussen ibn Ali(ra) and killed him and the same thing happened with Zayd ibn ali(ra). it was because of this false love and hypocrisy that the last imams had to abandon them for ever and move to north iraq where they died and are buried.


Posted By: hkrespect
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 7:22am

true, the shia seem to be the root cause of the problem.

remember those people who were showing over devotion to Ali r.a?

what happened to them?



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hk


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 7:23am

One more thing,

�the status of an Imam is higher than a prophet who was not given Immate�

This concept is from Quran. Many prophets were BOTH Imams and Prophets (i.e., Musa (a.s.), Isa (a.s.), Ibrahim (a.s.), etc.)

"And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, then he fulfilled them. He said: "Surely I am going to make you an Imam for men" (Ibrahim) said: "And of my offspring?" He said: "My covenant will not include the unjust" (2:124)

Imam is a leader who guides by a Divine Command, which is closely associated with him. The imamah, in its esoteric sense, is al‑wilayah (guardianship, authority) over the people in their actions and activities; and its guidance entails conveying them to the final destination by the command of Allah. It is different from that guidance which only shows the way ‑ and which is usually done by the prophets and messengers of Allah as well as by other believers who guide the people towards Allah with sincere exhortation and good advice."

This is a summary of the tafseer from "Al-Mizan". For the complete answer, see http://www.almizan.org/Tafseer/baqarah28.asp - http://www.almizan.org/Tafseer/baqarah28.asp



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:00am
Its made up terminologys by shia to conceal the contradiction thats how we see it. Are you saying a prophet cannot be an imam if he dont have imamah? what is the meaning of imam in shia dictionary?(if they have one) And why is the person who leads prayer is called Imam?


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:04am

If all prophets are imams, or if prophets are higher then imams then why did Ibrahim (a.s.) ask for Allah (s.w.a.) to make him an imam while he was already a prophet?

For an explanation of the distinction between prophethood and imamate, see the link provided.



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:27am
So if quran says imam it must mean imamah, if quran says believer it must be referring to Ali(ra) blabla. Its very simple you have to prove to as that the word imam in this instant is referring to shia terminology of imamah(supermen) and not leadership or other meanings that the word imam can have.


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:30am

So I asked a simple question, (Why did Ibrahim (a.s.) ask for Allah (s.w.a.) to make him an imam while he was already a prophet?), what is you're answer?



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:50am
Quote for me the verse where nabi ibrahim(as) is asking to be made an Imam:


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:56am

O.K., the request in the verse quoted (2:124) is implied, not stated directly. So for accuracy, let me re-phrase my question,

Why does Allah (s.w.a.) say,"Surely I am going to make you an Imam for men" when he was already a prophet?



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Ayubi1187
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 10:01am
ok.

Your asking irrelevant question "why does Allah say this"?lol We are discussing the meaning of imam referred in this ayah so the question should be what douse it men "surely i am going to make you an imam for men" douse it mean "shia imammah"? The best tafsir of the quran is the quran itself, i will refer you to the quran so that you understand that its not referring to shia imamah(made up).

read ayah 74 in sura al-Furqan find the word imam

����������� ���������� �������� ���� ����� ���� ������������ ���������������� ������� �������� ������������ �������������� ��������

read ayah 12 sura at-Tawbah

����� ���������� ������������ ���� ������ ���������� ����������� ��� ��������� ������������ ��������� ��������� ��������� ��� ��������� ������ ����������� ����������

read ayah 24 sura As-sajdah

����������� �������� ��������� ��������� ����������� ������ �������� ��������� ����������� ����������


read ayah 41 sura Al-qasas
��������������� ��������� ��������� ����� �������� �������� ������������ ��� ����������


And there is more ayahs that give explanation to the meaning of imam. We have even two ayah where the book of musa(as) is refered as imam, but its mostly used in the quran as referring to leadership.


Posted By: aservant
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki Ali Zaki wrote:

if prophets are higher then imams then why did Ibrahim (a.s.) ask for Allah (s.w.a.) to make him an imam while he was already a prophet?

dear Ali Zaki

are you fooling yourself or you are trying to make us fool.  i am a human being and alhamdulillah i am a muslim.  now if i ask Allah to make me a doctor then does it mean that doctor is superior to being muslim or being a human?

Sulaman (as) was a messenger of Allah and he was made a king as well.  does it mean that kingship is something superior to being a messenger?

and also, the word imama used for prophet Ibrahim (as) is not the same as you use it for your supernatural imams.  if you are in some delusion then dont delude other.

a well wisher

 



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 12:46pm

Dear aservent,

Here is the problem with your analogy,

1.) "If i ask Allah to make me a doctor..." If you ask Allah (s.w.a.) to make you a doctor, then you have misundertood the purpose of Dua'a (supplication). Allah (s.w.a.) has already given (most of us) the ability within us to become a doctor. It just take time and effort and does not require a divine decree, and even a Kafir, Mushrik, etc. can become a doctor. What is the point of asking for something that you already have (or the ability to acquire)

2.) " Sulaman (as) was a messenger of Allah and he was made a king as well" Yes, and so was Dawood (a.s.), however, this is an earthly title which was given to them by Nas (the people) not by Allah (s.w.a.). Again, Allah (s.w.a.) does not bestow kingship on someone and there are both just and unjust kings. The idea that the position of kingship is divinely appointed is a European (Chrisitian) deception.

Kingship is just a title, and does not have a divine reality behind it. If a king is not followed (or obeyed) by the people, then he is no longer a King. By contrast, an Imam is such whether or not he is obeyed by his Umma.

3.) " the word imama used for prophet Ibrahim (as) is not the same as you use it for your supernatural imams"

If the word "Imam" had only one, specific meaning (such as Nabowat, etc.), then there would be no reason for a discussion. I acknowedge that the word "Imam" is used in different ways. My point (in this discussion) is only that Allah (s.w.a.) is that when Allah (s.w.a.) says to the prophet Ibrahim that he will make him an Imam, he is giving him a HIGHER position then the one he already has (which is prophethood.) because Allah (s.w.a.) does not just give someone a useless title (like people do today).

 



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:43pm

Br Ali Zaki

I have no intention of hurting you and if I have hurt you or anyone else on this forum, please forgive me. As a Muslim who tries to read and understand the Qur'an I feel the responsibility (which Allah's has entrusted on everyone of us) not to turn a blind eye when one is thinking that he is doing the right thing, but is actually going against the commandments of Allah. And when you guide others on the forum and constantly allude to your favourite website I really fear because you are endorsing actions that contradict the teachings of the Qur'an. I have already referred to all those things (muta, mourning, etc) to which your brief and evasive answers have been in defence of your belief. Now we have moved to another crucial area. You have written:

Imam is a leader who guides by a Divine Command, which is closely associated with him. The imamah, in its esoteric sense, is al‑wilayah (guardianship, authority) over the people in their actions and activities; and its guidance entails conveying them to the final destination by the command of Allah. It is different from that guidance which only shows the way ‑ and which is usually done by the prophets and messengers of Allah as well as by other believers who guide the people towards Allah with sincere exhortation and good advice."

Are you trying to say that the Message that was brought to all mankind by Prophet Mohammed (SAW) was not divine? Was it not divine command? Was Jibrael a human being? What do you mean by "It is different from that guidance which only shows the way"? The guidance we have received from Allah and His Messenger is the complete guidance. And please tell me where is the name of Hazrat Ali in the Qur�an.? According to your website it has been mentioned 300 times! Are we blind or deluded? Is your Qur�an different from ours? On the contrary Allah has commanded us to obey the Prophet Mohammed(SAW) in the Qur�an. Obedience to the prophet Mohammed (SAW) is obedience to Allah. This is what we have been told in the Qur�an. There is a complete chapter on the Prophet Mohammed (SAW) in the Qur�an! Do you overlook all this and say that Ali is greater than Mohammed (SAW)? In his last sermon Mohammed (SAW) said:

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah, and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others, and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better that those who listen to me directly. Be my witness O Allah, that I have conveyed Your message to Your people."

Allah has made the Qur�an easy for us to understand, and we are to follow what has been made plain to us, not to go looking for the meaning of that which is allegorical. It seems to me that the main problem here is the efforts of Shiaism to understand the allegorical and bringing dissension in the Muslim ummah.

"And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, then he fulfilled them. He said: "Surely I am going to make you an Imam for men" (Ibrahim) said: "And of my offspring?" He said: "My covenant will not include the unjust" (2:124)

The above verse has been made plain to us. The meaning of �Imam� as plainly understood is �leader� �a model�, why complicate things by attaching some special meaning to it? Additionally, these words were for Hazrat Ibrahim, where does Hazrat Ali come into this? Anyway, I am not looking for answers from you for this if they are from outside of the Qur�an.

�the status of an Imam is higher than a prophet who was not given Immate�

Do Shias ever accept Allah�s will? If Hazrat Ali was not given the caliphate it was Allah�s will. How can one be a Muslim and promote Islam when one does not have the capacity of accepting Allah�s will and when one distorts the message of the Qur�an?

May Allah guide you Br Zaki to the right path and through you to your other Shia brethren. And May Allah guide us all to the right path, Ameen!



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 01 July 2005 at 5:04am

Br. Tasneem,

I must admit, sometimes I do tire of repeating myself.

The Prophet Mohammad's (a.s.) status before Allah (s.w.a.) is HIGHER then any other human being who ever lived. Even Imam Ali (a.s.) testifies to this NUMEROUS times. The Prophet (a.s.) was BOTH a prophet AND an IMAM (however, obiedience to ALL prophets is mandatory).

So you are continuing to guess about why I am saying this. Why? It is a simple issue. Ibrahim was given prophethood, then Allah (s.w.a.) made him an Imam. This is not my interpretation, but clear based on verse I quoted. Again, if you reject the explanation of the scholar cited, then provide an alternative. Do you have one?

" If Hazrat Ali was not given the caliphate it was Allah�s will. " This would be true if we were a flock of birds or sheep, however, Allah (s.w.a.) in Quran has told us many times the Allah (s.w.a.) shows us the way (i.e., gives us his Hidayah), it is our choice to be grateful (obedient) or ungrateful (disobeidient). If people disobey Allah (s.w.a.) and his messenger (s.w.a.), then they are only able to do this because Allah (s.w.a.) has given them the choice. This choice made by (the majority of) Umma of Muhammad (a.s.), i.e., to follow a leader other then him who Allah (s.w.a.) and his Messenger (a.s.) had ordered us to follow and obey is still "bearing it's fruits" today. This is why I keep posting.  



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 01 July 2005 at 7:58pm

Br Ali Zaki

Perhaps I should give up and just pray & hope that the time will come when you and other Shia members will find the right way. Because your responses never directly address the issues I raise, I am again responding.

1. Hazrat Ali's name has never been mentioned in the Qur'an, but you (the site you refer to) claim that it is mentioned 300 times.

2. The difference of opinion we have about the interpretation of the meaning of "Imam" has in any case been meant for Ibrahim (A.S), not Hazrat Ali.

3. Regarding your last para- in my opinion your interpretation is wrong. It was Allah's will that the caliphate was not given to Ali, and it is your opinion that MOhammed (SAW) wanted Ali to be the Caliph. As Muslims we are to follow a leader whoever has been given the leadership, we may disagree with him, yet we are to obey him. When we obey our leader, we are obeying Allah's will. We disobey him only when he teaches as to go against the commandments of Allah.

You are today following leaders who are teaching you against the commandments of Allah. You wish to rely on your scholars to understand the Qur'an even though Allah has said He has made it plain and easy for us to understand. Eventhough your scholars are leading you in the wrong direction, you have been so thoroughly brainwashed that you are unable to see the right from the wrong. Br Ali Zaki, you are deceiving yourself.



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 05 July 2005 at 5:33am

Br. Tasneem,

Regarding your points

1.) If we cannot even agree on the ONE verse that (even in mainstream Sunni books) is in reference to Imam Ali (a.s.) as a member of the Ahly Al'Bayt (the verse of purification), then I don't expect any agreement on this point. I don't know where the author came up with the number "300" (although I am not saying he is incorrect either, as I have not seen his evidence).

2.) I have never said that this verse is in reference to Imam Ali (a.s.). I cited the verse because it was pointed out to me that the Al-Islam.org has a passage that says that the "position of an Imam is higher then a Prophet." I was simply proving that in Quran this principle has been established.

3.) It was Allah's will that the caliphate was not given to Ali. I'm sure all usurpers and criminals around the world (who hide under the cloak of Islam) are happy to hear this from you. The "Ul Al'Amr" does not refer to any power-hungry despot who happens to gather a big enough army to steal what belongs to the Umma. Allah (s.w.a.) is "Al-Adl" (The Most Just), so how could he order you to obey a tyrant? May Allah (s.w.a.) guide you and I to the straight path.

 



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Tasneem
Date Posted: 05 July 2005 at 10:51pm
006.091:And they do not assign to Allah the attributes due to Him when they say: Allah has not revealed anything to a mortal. Say: Who revealed the Book which Musa brought, a light and a guidance to men, which you make into scattered writings which you show while you conceal much? And you were taught what you did not know, (neither) you nor your fathers. Say: Allah then leave them sporting in their vain discourses.

006.092 :And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; and those who believe in the hereafter believe in it, and they attend to their prayers constantly.

006.093:And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah, or says: It has been revealed to me; while nothing has been revealed to him, and he who says: I can reveal the like of what Allah has revealed? and if you had seen when the unjust shall be in the agonies of death and the angels shall spread forth their hands: Give up your souls; today shall you be recompensed with an ignominious chastisement because you spoke against Allah other than the truth and (because) you showed pride against His communications.

006.104: Indeed there have come to you clear proofs from your Lord; whoever will therefore see, it is for his own soul and whoever will be blind, it shall be against himself and I am not a keeper over you.

006.112:Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.






Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 11 July 2005 at 11:50pm
Ali Zaki

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)

================
What is meant by 'jihad' in the context of your quote?



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