Print Page | Close Window

Interested in answers...

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islam for non-Muslims
Forum Description: Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10281
Printed Date: 28 March 2024 at 2:11pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Interested in answers...
Posted By: Anatolian
Subject: Interested in answers...
Date Posted: 17 September 2007 at 2:17pm
I have a couple of questions I need answered from an Islamic view.

1) How is the Assyrian heretical monk Bahira portrayed in Islam? How
influencial was he with Muhammed?

2) Why is it that when Muhammed received his first vision from, according
to him, the angel Gabriel, that he was shaken in fear and ran to the arms
of Fatima? Why was fear his reaction to this visit if his vision was truly
"celestial and heavenly"?

3) Why is it that whenever Christians are using the Bible to debate
Muslims, Muslims always renounce it stating that the Bible was forged. If
so do Muslims have the right interpretations of the Bible? Is there an
existing "original" copy of the true Bible or is this a teaching thought by
Sheikhs without any proofs to end any form of debate?

Thanks



Replies:
Posted By: Mauri
Date Posted: 17 September 2007 at 5:02pm
I am not a Muslim, but would like to share my thoughts on a couple of your questions, if you don't mind.

2) Why is it that when Muhammed received his first vision from, according
to him, the angel Gabriel, that he was shaken in fear and ran to the arms
of Fatima? Why was fear his reaction to this visit if his vision was truly
"celestial and heavenly"?

Fear is the first reaction to a spiritual experience. We fear the unknown.  Notice how many times in the Bible an angel appeared and first said, "Fear not". 

Fear is an attention-getter.  Once God has our attention, He can teach us of spiritual things.  Hence, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. 


3) Why is it that whenever Christians are using the Bible to debate Muslims, Muslims always renounce it stating that the Bible was forged.
 Personally, I think it is because too many Christians use the Bible to debate Muslims when they don't have a very good understanding of the Bible, themselves.  And, Muslims tend to have even less of an understanding of the Bible.  The irony is, imo, that if either of them had a good grasp of their holy book, they would see that they complement each other rather than contradict each other.

 If so do Muslims have the right interpretations of the Bible?
No.  Neither do most Christians. 
The evidence can be seen in the hateful nature of Christians, whose religion is love, and the antagonistic nature of Muslims, whose religion is peace.  But, that is part of the process.  We have to hate someone before we can learn to love anyone.

Is there an

existing "original" copy of the true Bible or is this a teaching thought by
Sheikhs without any proofs to end any form of debate?

No.   No original manuscripts of any book of the Bible have survived. 




Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 17 September 2007 at 11:47pm
Muhammed's reaction was not the same as those who claim visions of
The Virgin Mary or of Jesus Christ Himself. When Muhammed comes back
from his first encounter with this "angelic being" he runs out to Khadija
(forgive my previous post where I said Fatima instead, who happens to be
his daughter), he discribes his experiance for the first time and states
that it was violent. Here is a translation by Sahih Bukhari:

"In the first encounter, Aisha related that when Muhammad did not recite,
Gabriel caught him (forcefully) and pressed him so hard that he could not
bear it any more, and this was repeated three times. Gabriel left
Muhammad terribly shaken. Muhammad feared that something might
have happened to him, returned and asked Khadija to cover him until his
fear was gone. Muhammad thought that the spirit was a jinn. He even
contemplated commiting suicide by throwing himself down a mountain."

Now I've read many stories of heavenly visions and none that I can
remember reading about involved the Holy Vision to grab an individual
and hurt him physically. Muhammed himself states that this might be a
Jinn or another Arabic form of the word is Shaytan (Devil, Satan, etc...)
One is to ponder about the relationship and the verses that were given to
him from such a violent being.

Fear is a natural reaction to such a shock I don't believe God or his
Messangers use it necessarily to grab one's attention. A hevenly Being in
front of you should catch you off guard to matter what and grab your full
attention. Once an apparition was revealed to an individual lucky enough
to be chosen by God, that individual senses a state of peace an harmony.
He doesn't contemplate suicide!


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 18 September 2007 at 6:49am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

What you quoted is not sahih bukhari but someone wrong summation [by implication] of what a number of hadith have said.

The Angel Hugged him 3 times he did not hurt him physically, can you prove any injury?

He first thought it was a jin later he didnt with further contact and experience, are you trying to invalidate those accounts by his first impression alone?

Dont pretend to compare what normal people see with what is revealed to any prophet, the prophet himself felt fear Allah did not cause him to fear it was his own natural reaction to something foreign and uncommon at those times. At this point in time information about such thing is widespread and common, consider the fact they had to consult a person from a different faith than the arabs to understand what was happening to him.

Angels come to men in Awe inspiring forms to make men understand and perceive the seriousness of the matter, this hug was to awaken him inside to the reality of prophet hood, the prophet  [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] needed this considering his reaction to revelation which was suacidal and not a result of this first encounter as your Quote wrongfully claims.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 September 2007 at 6:14pm

 This is the hadith quoted :

 Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran): 'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."  (Book #1, Hadith #3) - Sahih Bukhari.

As mauri and Bro, Rami said , Fear is the natural reaction for something uncommon. It was the first revelation as u know. I totally agree with Bro. Rami that it was to awaken in him the prophethood. There was no injury.

Coming to the point of contemplating suicide - Let me clear that it was not due to fear but, when the Divine inspiration paused for a while and the Prophet [pbuh] became so sad, that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains, and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw
himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say: "O Muhammad! You are indeed All? �s Messenger in truth," whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and return home. Whenever the period of the coming of the Revelation used to become long, he would do as before, but Gabriel would appear again before him and say to him what he had said before. [Bukhari 2/340]



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 September 2007 at 6:20pm

Regarding Bahira monk :

Here's what we muslims take it. When the Messenger of All? [pbuh] was twelve years old, he went with his uncle Abu Talib on a business journey to Syria. When they reached Busra (which was apart of Syria, in the vicinity of Howran under the Roman domain) they met a monk
called Bahira (his real name was Georges), who showed great kindness, and entertained them lavishly. He had never been in the habit of receiving or entertaining them before. He readily enough recognized the Prophet [pbuh] and said while taking his hand: "This is the master of all humans. All? will send him with a Message which will be a mercy to all beings." Abu Talib asked: "How do you know that?" He replied: "When you appeared from the direction of �Aqabah, all stones and trees prostrated themselves, which they never do except for a Prophet. I can recognize him also by the seal of Prophethood which is below his shoulder, like an apple. We have got to learn this from our books." He also asked Abu Talib to send the boy back to Makkah and not to take him to Syria for fear of the Jews. Abu Talib obeyed and sent him back to Makkah with some of his men servants. [Ibn Hisham 1/180-183; Za'd Al-Ma'ad 1/17]



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 September 2007 at 7:06pm

We renounce stating the Bible if forged since Allah swt says that in Holy Quran.
Here are few verses
"14. And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.
15. O People of the Scripture! Now has come to you Our Messenger explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light and a plain Book" Of the fifth chapter in the Holy Qur'an.

'And that which they used to invent regarding their religion has deceived them"

When Isa {Jesus} was rised in heavens {as we believe}, some of them went to the extreme over `Isa, believing that he was the son of Allah. Some of them said that `Isa was Allah Himself, while others said that he was one of a Trinity. Allah mentioned these false creeds in the Qur'an and refuted them. The Christians remained like this until the third century CE, when a Greek king called, Constantine, became a Christian for the purpose of destroying Christianity. Constantine was either a philosopher, or he was just plain ignorant. Constantine changed the religion of `Isa by adding to it and deleting from it. He established the rituals of Christianity and the so-called Great Trust, which is in fact the Great Treachery. He also allowed them to eat the meat of swine, changed the direction of the prayer that `Isa established to the east, built churches for `Isa, and added ten days to the fast as compensation for a sin that he committed, as claimed. So the religion of `Isa became the religion of Constantine, who built more then twelve thousand churches, temples and monasteries for the Christians as well as the city that bears his name, Constantinople (Istanbul). Throughout this time, the Christians had the upper hand and dominated the Jews. Allah aided them against the Jews because they used to be closer to the truth than the Jews, even though both groups were and still are disbelievers, may Allah's curse descend on them. YOu can very well see the corruption.

We do believe that Bible was a revealed book since there's a  verse in the holy Qura'an which says : ". And argue not with the People of the Scripture, except with that which is better -- except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our God and your God is One, and to Him we have submitted.''

46. And in their footsteps, We sent `Isa, son of Maryam, confirming the Tawrah that had come before him, and We gave him the Injil, in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tawrah that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for those who have Taqwa.) (47. Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the rebellious.

48. And We have sent down to you the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhayminan over it (old Scriptures). So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allah; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ."



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 21 September 2007 at 10:27am
I will go into detail for your responses, which by the way thank you for
the time and effort in your messages. As my time is quite limited at the
moment I will just reply with a few remarks.

From what I clearly understood and the points that I noticed that were
made concerning the Bible being a fake is the fact that the first 300 years
of Christianity were basically "Islam" but once Emperor Constantine took
power he remade it into what it is today. The only differences that you
claim between us and you is the fact that we are allowed to eat swine...
Does that call for another prophet to be sent down from the heavens? No.
Our differences are much more doctotrine based. It's almost entirely
different then the older Judeo-Christian traditions, which one evolved of
the other.

Another thing that stood out was your point on prayers facing the East.
Our prayers face above us, the heavens not a certain location on Earth.
God did not create one part of the Earth holier then the other.

Once again I will go into detail if time allows it.

Thanks


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 21 September 2007 at 1:57pm

 

 The appearance of Jibreel a.s. to the prophet s.a.w.s. was in the form of a great man. Same angel appeared to Moses a.s. in the form of a fire in the bush. The same angel appeared to Isa (Jesus) a.s. in the form of a pigeon.

Hazrat Maryam (The mother Mary) was visited by the same angel in a dream. The case of the appearance to our prophet was different. It was almost real and physical. So fear was natural.

Muslims do not say that bible is corrupt from their own mind or wish. This matter is reported in the holy book Quran. The important points of corruption are also given in the Quran. We also see that the report of the Quran is correct because there is much difference in the teachings of Torah (OT) and Injeel (NT).

Whereas O.T. is strictly monotheistic, we see teachings of more than one god or god in three parts ( I may say Trinity) in NT. Eating of pigs is forbidden to the Jews and Jesus never ate it. His disciples also did not eat it. But the christians are eating it. Surely it was not told to Jesus that his men could eat the flesh of swine. Otherwise he would have said so and his friends would have started eating it in their lifetime.

 Therefore some one altered that principle. There was the circumcision. That has also been discarded. Surely it was not the teaching of Jesus a.s. Then think of the Sabath. That has also been thrown out. Next is the law of Moses a.s. His commandments that Jesus had come to observe in a good way. Jesus was observing and teaching the law of Moses to all people. That law has been abondoned. Some one has done it before the revelation of the Quran.

 So we know that the present bible (NT) is not the same as it should be. We are not worried where the original bible has gone. We have been told in the Quran that the christians have changed the real teachings after having received them. And we can see the proof too in the bible NT when compared to the bible O.T.

 Otherwise we have no grudge against the bible. We Muslims only have the word of God (Kalam Allah) with us, well preserved.



-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 01 October 2007 at 11:37pm
My question is why would Muhammed believe it was a jin who appeared to
him and needed a few more visions to clarify this? Don't first impressions
mean anything? The translation I was using is the one used by many
muslims who don't read arabic. As for if I have any evidence of injuries I
wouldnt know I wasnt there but it sure discribes a traumatic incident doesnt
it?


Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 01 October 2007 at 11:58pm
Concerning the supposed tampering of the Bible, it is complete rubbish.

I will begin from the the Bible itself.

Revelation 22:18-19
Deuteronomy 4:2

If interested I can type both of those verses or you can look them up
yourself. Both enforce the Jews and Christians not to tamper with the
words of God.

What do the Christians and Jews have to gain by changing the Holy Bible?
So all those millions who perished for Christ put there lives on the line for
lies? Is this what God truly wanted?

There are many early manuscripts that were written close to the years
after Christ's death and resurection that show an exact word for word
copy to the present day Bible used.

Here are the following:
1) The Alexandrian script early 5th century
2) The Vatican copy, written 300 years before Islam
3) The Sinaitic written in 4th century
4) Codex Epraemi
5) Dead Sea Scrolls.

All share the exact wording and message. It is a false charge brought
upon Christians with no valid proof from Muslims.

As for the Qu'ran, it was gathered word for word by Khalif Uthman (3rd).
Many of those who recited it word for word either had died by the time of
his Khalifate or were killed in battle so one could not claim that the
Qu'ran had survived in complete form from Muhammed's mouth to now
can they? They are not even compiled in chronological order. The Meccan
and Medina verses are gathered down in disaray.


Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 02 October 2007 at 12:07am
Also in Surah 29:46
"And dispute ye not with the people of the Book except with means better
(then mere disputation) unless it be with those who inflict wrong and injury.
but say "We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in
turn has came down to you: Our Allah and your Allah is one."
.

Is this describing the Revelations of the Bible now used by Christians and
Jews? So in fact Muhammed does not disclaim the truth of the Bible does he?


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 02 October 2007 at 8:42am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

As for the Qu'ran, it was gathered word for word by Khalif Uthman (3rd).
Many of those who recited it word for word either had died by the time of his Khalifate or were killed in battle.

Many sahaba died but not all, and we are talking about those who originaly heard most of the the revelation not simply recited it word for word which where  neumorous and there numbers increasing on a daily basis.

so one could not claim that the Qu'ran had survived in complete form from Muhammed's mouth to now can they?

yes they can you claims are simply incorrect and full of mistakes.

See, http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/

They are not even compiled in chronological order. The Meccan
and Medina verses are gathered down in disaray.

Simply not true, we have the exact order as the prophet recited it himself preserved.

Is this describing the Revelations of the Bible now used by Christians and Jews? So in fact Muhammed does not disclaim the truth of the Bible does he?

This is reffering to the original revelation given to moses and Jesus [hs] not the bible or the torah, which the quran itself states have been corruptted.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 October 2007 at 10:31am

Originally posted by Anatolian Anatolian wrote:

Concerning the supposed tampering of the Bible, it is complete rubbish.

I will begin from the the Bible itself.

Revelation 22:18-19
Deuteronomy 4:2

If interested I can type both of those verses or you can look them up
yourself. Both enforce the Jews and Christians not to tamper with the
words of God. 

Ummm, you realize that prior to 325 that Deuteronomy and Revelations were their own books right?  They were not part of a collection?  That the ban is on adding specifically to those books...ie Revelations and Deuteronomy...

The "Bible" didn't come into being until 325AD... its a collection of books, with many, many others left out.  It was a Council of men who decided what was most accurate and true and in what order to put the books into...

The Book of Revelations is placed in one of two time periods... 68-69AD and more conservatively 95-96 AD... 

According to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com - http://www.earlychristianwritings.com which is an excellent source for both canon and non canon texts, 2 Peter was written between 100 and 160 AD. 

Does that mean that all the books after Revelations should be thrown out???  Surely not.

I absolutely love it when people try to use Revelations 22: 18-19 wrongly.  So many Christians don't understand the origins of our own book.  They see it 1700 years ex-post facto as two books, the Old Testament and the New...its not...its 66 Books divided into two categories.

Please, if you are going to come to a site and ask a bunch of question...please get your facts in order.  (I noticed some aggregious errors in your other posts like Fatima in the place of Khadija and such).

If you are going to debate...have your facts checked in advance.

Now, as a Christian, I do not believe in the infallibility of any book.  If I did, I'd probably be Muslim.  As a history buff, I realize that the Holy Scriptures have been messed with for political gain since Rome converted to Christianity. 

Don't you think that the Council put Revelations exactly where its at to keep the "heretics" in check?  To cement their "absolute" authority over what books where and were not canon?

And if that's the case, everything passed Dueteronomy is out...

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

 



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 02 October 2007 at 10:52am

It is important to read the guidelines:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ; ;PN=1

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7684&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7684& ; ;PN=1

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 02 October 2007 at 10:55am

"There is no limit on questions one may ask or repeatedly ask to clarify a point about Islamic faith as long as the purpose is to seek knowledge about Islam. This is the place where only those who believe in Islamic faith and have proper knowledge on the subject should take part to answer, and those who can not positively contribute here should not take part."

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7684&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7684& ;PN=1

 



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 03 October 2007 at 12:11am
I believe I am seeking knowledge here and in turn I raise excellent points.
I'm not here to stir up any hate. I'm here to understand why some acts are
committed by muslims. Why some beliefs are followed and why is there
no outcry by the moderates. I am purely an amateur at this but it
shouldnt keep me back from asking questions and rebuting answers and
if that bothers you Angela then its very easy to ignore my posts and
replies.

I was born and raised in a Muslim dominated country and I know first
hand what happens to one who doesnt belong to the rest of the flock.
One who happens to walk by a mosque after Friday prayers and is
attacked by men who are full of rage and is stabbed numerous times
because an imam went off on a rant that day about the Nasrawis
(Christians), and I happened to be a scapegoat... And to top it off the men
were caught but released that day once the police found out I had
survived the attack. I have every right to understand where this hate is
generated from!

As for Christianity being used as a political tool is a shame. Nobody
confesses more to a divison of Church and State then Christ himself
where he said" "Give what belongs to Ceasar to him and what belongs to
God to God." Whether it be popes, emperors, doesnt matter he who has
abused this delicate line is or will be getting his in the afterlife. I truly
believe so. The difference between Christianity and Islam is the fact that
Islam was a military, social and politcal force as well as a religious. That is
why there is hardly any seperation between religion and state in most if
not all Islamic dominated countries. It's is impossible to do so.

After all the hell committed by Christian dominated Europe and America
in the name of Christ is against all His teachings. And if Angela you claim
to be a history buff you will know this as truth. The main foundation of
Christianity is peace and forgiveness. That is not what the europeans and
americans have been practicing not just now but from a while back. To
use Christianity to spread political or economical ideas is nonsense and
has no basis.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 03 October 2007 at 8:44am

Oh yes, I would agree the basics of Christianity are supposed to be peace and forgiveness, but I have found over the years that evil men will twist anything to their own gain.

Chrisitanity is about brotherhood.  Yet, until recently and even in some circles, being black is taught to either be the Mark of Cain or they are descendants of Ham.  I have been SHOCKED to see people who are rational and professed Christians tell their children this.  (Specifically a Baptist friend of mine who told her children Evolution isn't right, being black is the Mark of Cain )

Political leaders have been using Christianity for 1700 years for political gain.  They have made rulings and twisted doctrines to give them the maximum power.  Everything from tracing lineages to David to justify claims to the Throne of (Fill in the Blank) Nation to declaring heretics and casting them out of their countries.

If Christianity were not such a powerful tool, then Pennsylvania would not have been settled by the Quakers, Massachusetts by the Puritans and the Mormons wouldn't have been driven from Illinois under threats of death.

I always fear a leader who wears their faith so openly.  In Russia, they say true christians wear their cross under their clothes.  Its a sign of humility.  For years, I wore my Crucifix under my shirt for that reason. 

So, when these things happen in Islamic countries, I think of the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire.  Its no different.  I look at the Church of England, the Catholic Church and the Evangelical movement. 

Atheism is even a religion of sorts.  Look at the fanatical actions of Atheist nations like the USSR. 

Islam's basis is brotherhood.  The Quran says to kill a man is to have killed all of humanity, but to save a man is to have saved all of humanity.  If we lived in a perfect world where there were no evil, then there would be no violence.

Hinduism is pacifist.  Study Rajaraja Chola I.  He built many temples because his hands were bloodied by war and its a major sin in Hinduism to kill. 

Islam cannot be blamed for those who pervert it and take passages out of context.  Nor can any other faith.



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 03 October 2007 at 10:27am

Assalamu Alaikum,

The thread will be closed due to various violations. Please read the guidelines and comply.



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net