a Surah the like thereof

Let us look at another episode of Nouman Ali Khan's video which speaks about the difference in the way Moosa AS and Isa AS address the people of Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ULa2JzPG0 From app the 8:43 minutes onwards.

Another pointer to exemplary awareness and precision of the author.

Assalamu alaikum, my brother. Hope Ramadan is going well for you and your loved ones. My apologies for not responding earlier.

TG12345 wrote: Yes, so saying that God created Adam and Jesus without parents is not a contradiction of the saying that He made people from two parents... as one could say that Adam and Eve and Jesus were exceptions.

The Saint wrote: Are you saying and accepting that there could be exceptions to God's laws? If that is the case then our debate comes to a conclusive end. Which means, that there are exceptions to God's rules.

Yes there can be exceptions.
As long as there are no verses that state such an exception cannot occur.
If that were to be the case, the exception would be a contradiction.

TG12345 wrote: However, Him saying that He did not make any people but from a man and woman would contradict this.

The Saint wrote: Sure.

In the same way, Him saying that he created no man with two hearts in his body would be contradicted by the existence of a person who did indeed have two hearts in his chest... unless the statement made was a metaphorical one and not a physical one.

TG12345 wrote: In every other example I brought up from the Quran where God says He does not do anything, you believe there are no exceptions... and rightly so, since that would be a contradiction!

The Saint wrote: If I can recall correctly it was you who threw-up exceptions, i.e. Lippert. Then I countered that by much more famous and eminent exceptions.

Yes, but the difference between this exception and the ones you provided is that there are no statements that say God did not make people except of a man and a woman.
On the other hand, there is a verse that says God did not create any man with two hearts in his body.
This was either meant as a metaphor, or the life of George Lippert proved the Quran false.
The tafsirs of the verse point to the first possibility (ie that it was a metaphor), not the second.

TG12345 wrote: It may be implied that the woman may have two hearts in her body, but the statement that Allah did not place two hearts in the chest of a man is false... unless the verse is a metaphor.

The Saint wrote: I am amazed to note that you have still not grasped what was discussed in that video? To wit, the emphasis in that video on the fact that a woman may have two hearts in her body because she gets pregnant but a man does not get pregnant.

Had the Quran's author wanted to say this, he could have said no man has two legs in his stomach.
Treating this verse literally falsifies the Quran.
Treating it as a metaphor may take away the miracle claim discussed in the video but it at least does not falsify its text.

TG12345 wrote: If the verse is a metaphor, it is no longer an error but then it ceases to be a miracle in subtlety since the heart being referred to is a metaphor and not a physical thing... in which case a woman could also not have two hearts in her body. Either the verse is meant literally and the subtlety comes along with a scientific error or the the verse is meant as a metaphor and the lack of scientific error comes with the lack of a miracle.

The Saint wrote: The verse, I have already said could have a different meaning. One, that you appear to prefer. But in an indirect and subtle reference we see a linguistic subtlety also.

But the linguistic subtlety (which would be derived from a literal translation) comes with a scientific error.

TG12345 wrote: OK. In that case, this verse is as miraculous as 40:23 or many of the other verses in the Quran which state something that is already obvious.

The Saint wrote: Quran states things in its own inimitable manner and quite few things it says are miracles, in the sense that at the time those things were revealed no one knew about them on earth.

No argument with you there, TheSaint.
However, this verse is not one of them.

TG12345 wrote: Did He anywhere say He created no human being with no legs or no human being with three legs?

The Saint wrote: Not that I know of. But I would not rule-out the possibility that He, in His infinite wisdom, has said something in that context, even if indirectly.

If He did, such a statement would have been erroneous.

TG12345 wrote: Great. So here again you accept that God does not destroy wrong-doers without warning because there is a verse saying He does not destroy wrong-doers without warning.

The Saint wrote: I accept.

Alhamdullilah! :)

TG12345 wrote: In this case, accepting that God may have created men with more than two hearts in their chests despite a verse where God says He didn't would also be illogical and in my opinion reflect a double standard (sorry if I am being offensive, not my intent but that is the way I see it).

The Saint wrote: God does make exceptions, we have already seen that in the case of Jesus PBUH. But if I look-up the Bible I shall be able to provide exceptions by the thousands! So, you do not really have a case at all. Only you are trying to make one.

An exception is one thing. A contradiction is another.
If the verse is meant literally, the existence of people with two hearts in their chest would contradict and falsify it.

The Bible has not only exceptions, but many contradictions also. It is not the word of God.

TG12345 wrote: I could see why you would claim that the verse is a miracle by default. I don't see how you can continue to insist it is linguistically precise without seeing the obvious scientific error.

The Saint wrote: There is obviously no scientific error. As per universal law, women in pregnancy may have two hearts in her body but a man cannot have them because he cannot get pregnant. I hope you recognise the truth of the statement in this situation.

Of course there is a scientific error. It is possible for a man to have two hearts in his body. The cases we have looked at shown this.

Nice debating with you brother! God bless you and take care!

Edited by TG12345 - 05 June 2016 at 6:23pm