| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Community 
Guest Group
Joined: 19 May 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1135
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: Ijtihad
Posted: 27 May 2005 at 10:04pm |
|
[QUOTE=rami] Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
Fiqh means To Understand, it is narated from rasul allah (salla llahu alaihi wa sallam) that he said " He who seeks from Allah for Goodness, Allah will Give him Understanding in the Deen". Fiqh is understanding in the Deen.
|
 |
rami
Moderator Group
Male
Joined: 01 March 2000
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2005 at 2:05am |
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
asslamu alaikum
The mistake
made is that the makers of the shariah did not take into account
that when the prophet ordered stoning of the adulterers those who got
stoned were jewish,
This is arogance and the basis for
your lack of understanding. You dont seem to be able to accept that
your level of knowledge is inadequate to judge what is corect and what
isnt at a scholarly level. How can you say for 1400 years a mistake was
made by the entire Ummah. This is not My argument disproving what you
said but my emphasis on the Grandur of your statment which you
carelesly utter.
Proove a mistake was made at the
scholarly level, to do so you will have know what the reasons are
behind the rulling you dont seem to know this. your analysis is
simplistic and not up to standard to be followed by anyone.
By the way wahabis agree on stoning of adulterers when they
are married and lashing them 100 times when they are unmarried, So
how can you claim this is something wahabis use to counter the madhabs?
I didnt, i was referring to you Quote from the Quran.
but stonning was certailny a punishment for muslims and i know of two cases in the time of rasul allah.
Did you miss this statment, stoning
was used by rasul Allah as a punishment for muslims on muslims and i
know of two cases, i have never heard that a jew asked rasul allah
(sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) to punish him this seems rediculous.
is it not proof enough for you that nowhere in
the koran it tells us to stone adulterers? ofcourse lashing is severe
but stoning till death is more severe since it is a punishment that
leads to death. If it was a law for muslims looking at it's severity it
would have been in the koran or atleast the distinction would be made
between unmarried and married adulterers like the shariah does.
No your line of reasoning is weak and would not even be considered
as an argument Under the laws of Usul al Fiqh. I believe in the Quran
and Sunnah, rasul allah ordered the stoning of at least two muslims for
this act.
1200 years is not 1426 years and before since islam existed before even the last prophet.
A general statment which means nothing.
So you mean to say that only someone who studies history and the shariah is guided?
Allah Guides to what is correct, "are those who know equal with those who dont".
I see enough already.
You dont see anything at all.
The topic is Ijtihad so far i dont see it being discussed?
|
|
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
|
|
Community
Guest Group
Joined: 19 May 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1135
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 26 May 2005 at 10:11pm |
 rami wrote:
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
assalamu alaikum
| no wahabi here, if you look at the question about adultery you should have known that, |
I dont read every post, You may not be a wahabi but your comments certainly are. What you said above is the exact argument they like to use against the madhhabs. Maybe you have read some articles without knowing the ideology of the auther Allahu alam but there is no mistake you have even phrased the argument the same.
| i am one who submits to Allah wishing His peace(a muslim) you have quoted me inproperly in some occasions but nevertheless, My question was, is this a verse from the koran or not? "whoever Allah guides he then is the guided and whoever he leads astray there is non who can guide him" i heard this "phrase" come from "salafi" mouths, i don't know if others use it also. |
I am refering to other comments as well as this, it is used to call scholars ignorant simply becouse they can not comprahend what they say. This is a verse from the Quran, if my memory is correct it was revealed in relation to Kafirs, so you are not sure? they tend to use these arguments aimed at non muslims agaisnt muslims. Can someone who reads this come with confirmation that this is a verse from the koran or that it is not?, see i heard it being said by people and it sounds like a koranic verse, but i am not sure it is from the koran.
| my other question was about stoning of adulterers, In the koran it states that the punishment for this sin is 100 lashes, in the hadith the prophet implemented stoning, but if we look closely into the matter we discover it involved jews, since stoning of adulterers is a law from the torah, so he judged them according to their book, today in the "shariah" the punishment for adulterers who are muslims, is stoning when they are married and commit this sin, and 100 lashes when they are not married. Since stoning is not mentioned in the koran and it being such a severe punishment, and taking a closer look at this hadith and that it involved jews and not muslims, the only possible explanation is that somehow a jewish law was made into an "islamic" law, it became a part of the islamic "shari'ah" even though it goes against the koranic teachings(100 lashes the punishment for adultery), and even the way of the prophet saws(in aplying this punishment only when it concerned the jews, since it is a law from their book the torah). |
your analysis is not correct, in the Quran it self it says look to past scriptures to confirm what is in Islam, in the Quran you mean, similarly rasul allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) many times has said i have recieved a revelation which no other prophet has recieved before me, meaning part of what is in the Quran and sunnah other prophets have recieved. I dont know if what you are saying is correct about the the 100 lashes only being in relation to a jew, no i said stoning is a jewish law, it is in the torah the punishment for adultery. The punishment for adultery amongst muslims is 100 lashes according to the koran, and it does not tell that the punishment of 100 lashes is only appliable for those who are unmarried and commit this sin, the shari'ah says that the unmarried gets 100 lashes if they commit this sin and death by stoning if they are married, even wahabis to my knowledge agree on this shariah law. The mistake made is that the makers of the shariah did not take into account that when the prophet ordered stoning of the adulterers those who got stoned were jewish, because for the jews the punishment for adultery is stoning and not 100 lashes. So what the prophet saws did was that he judged them according to their book, the torah. By the way wahabis agree on stoning of adulterers when they are married and lashing them 100 times when they are unmarried, So how can you claim this is something wahabis use to counter the madhabs? but stonning was certailny a punishment for muslims and i know of two cases in the time of rasul allah.
Even if the only evidence was one hadith about a jew, you would have to look at the Usul used behind the ruling to disprove it not simply argue that this is the only evidence. is it not proof enough for you that nowhere in the koran it tells us to stone adulterers? ofcourse lashing is severe but stoning till death is more severe since it is a punishment that leads to death. If it was a law for muslims looking at it's severity it would have been in the koran or atleast the distinction would be made between unmarried and married adulterers like the shariah does.
| I wonder how you could confuse me with a wahabi or one who uses their rethoric? or is it just a word to use when you want to dismiss something when it does n't go along with what you are taught and accepted as truth? |
Hardly your comments are cetainly from them, any person who does not follow a madhhab does so only becouse of what they have done. Muslims have been following the Madhhabs for over 1200 years and there status is agreed upon by ALL scholars.1200 years is not 1426 years and before since islam existed before even the last prophet. You need to understand history and the development of Islamic Law to know and understand this matter. So you mean to say that only someone who studies history and the shariah is guided?
| is this not the same thing that those who you call "wahabis" do? i hope you understand i am not trying to humiliate you, but please read, think and reason, and wish for His mercy, i wish it for you already, may Allah open our eyes and ears, and may He write for us the fear of Him on both, and all our senses. ameen. |
No br, read the articles in the post on madhhabs and insha allah you will see were i am coming from. I see enough already.
|
|
|
rami
Moderator Group
Male
Joined: 01 March 2000
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 26 May 2005 at 2:31am |
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
assalamu alaikum
| no wahabi here, if you look at the question about adultery you should have known that, |
I dont read every post, You may not be a wahabi but your comments
certainly are. What you said above is the exact argument they like to
use against the madhhabs. Maybe you have read some articles without
knowing the ideology of the auther Allahu alam but there is no mistake
you have even phrased the argument the same.
| i am one who submits to Allah wishing His peace(a muslim) you
have quoted me inproperly in some occasions but nevertheless, My
question was, is this a verse from the koran or not? "whoever
Allah guides he then is the guided and whoever he leads astray there is
non who can guide him" i heard this "phrase" come from "salafi"
mouths, i don't know if others use it also. |
I am refering to other comments as well as this, it is used to call
scholars ignorant simply becouse they can not comprahend what they say.
This is a verse from the Quran, if my memory is correct it was revealed
in relation to Kafirs, they tend to use these arguments aimed at non
muslims agaisnt muslims.
| my other question was about stoning of adulterers, In the
koran it states that the punishment for this sin is 100 lashes, in
the hadith the prophet implemented stoning, but if we look closely into
the matter we discover it involved jews, since stoning of adulterers is
a law from the torah, so he judged them according to their book, today
in the "shariah" the punishment for adulterers who are
muslims, is stoning when they are married and commit this
sin, and 100 lashes when they are not married. Since stoning is not
mentioned in the koran and it being such a severe punishment, and
taking a closer look at this hadith and that it involved jews and not
muslims, the only possible explanation is that somehow a jewish law was
made into an "islamic" law, it became a part of the islamic "shari'ah"
even though it goes against the koranic teachings(100 lashes the
punishment for adultery), and even the way of the prophet saws(in
aplying this punishment only when it concerned the jews, since it is a
law from their book the torah). |
your analysis is not correct, in the Quran it self it says look to
past scriptures to confirm what is in Islam, similarly rasul allah
(sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) many times has said i have recieved a
revelation which no other prophet has recieved before me, meaning part
of what is in the Quran and sunnah other prophets have recieved. I
dont know if what you are saying is correct about the the 100 lashes
only being in relation to a jew, but stonning was certailny a
punishment for muslims and i know of two cases in the time of rasul
allah.
Even if the only evidence was one hadith about a jew, you
would have to look at the Usul used behind the ruling to disprove it
not simply argue that this is the only evidence.
| I wonder how you could confuse me with a wahabi or one who
uses their rethoric? or is it just a word to use when you want to
dismiss something when it does n't go along with what you are taught
and accepted as truth? |
Hardly your comments are cetainly from them, any person who does
not follow a madhhab does so only becouse of what they have done.
Muslims have been following the Madhhabs for over 1200 years and there
status is agreed upon by ALL scholars. You need to understand history
and the development of Islamic Law to know and understand this matter.
| is this not the same thing that those who you call "wahabis"
do? i hope you understand i am not trying to humiliate
you, but please read, think and reason, and wish for His mercy, i wish
it for you already, may Allah open our eyes and ears, and may He
write for us the fear of Him on both, and all our senses. ameen. |
No br, read the articles in the post on madhhabs and insha allah you will see were i am coming from.
Edited by rami
|
|
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
|
|
Community
Guest Group
Joined: 19 May 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1135
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 May 2005 at 10:16pm |
no wahabi here, if you look at the question about adultery you should have known that, i am one who submits to Allah wishing His peace(a muslim) you have quoted me inproperly in some occasions but nevertheless, My question was, is this a verse from the koran or not? "whoever Allah guides he then is the guided and whoever he leads astray there is non who can guide him" i heard this "phrase" come from "salafi" mouths, i don't know if others use it also. my other question was about stoning of adulterers, In the koran it states that the punishment for this sin is 100 lashes, in the hadith the prophet implemented stoning, but if we look closely into the matter we discover it involved jews, since stoning of adulterers is a law from the torah, so he judged them according to their book, today in the "shariah" the punishment for adulterers who are muslims, is stoning when they are married and commit this sin, and 100 lashes when they are not married. Since stoning is not mentioned in the koran and it being such a severe punishment, and taking a closer look at this hadith and that it involved jews and not muslims, the only possible explanation is that somehow a jewish law was made into an "islamic" law, it became a part of the islamic "shari'ah" even though it goes against the koranic teachings(100 lashes the punishment for adultery), and even the way of the prophet saws(in aplying this punishment only when it concerned the jews, since it is a law from their book the torah). I wonder how you could confuse me with a wahabi or one who uses their rethoric? or is it just a word to use when you want to dismiss something when it does n't go along with what you are taught and accepted as truth? is this not the same thing that those who you call "wahabis" do? i hope you understand i am not trying to humiliate you, but please read, think and reason, and wish for His mercy, i wish it for you already, may Allah open our eyes and ears, and may He write for us the fear of Him on both, and all our senses. ameen.
|
|
rami
Moderator Group
Male
Joined: 01 March 2000
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 May 2005 at 12:22am |
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
Assalamu alaikum
| How about striving with utmost abilities to extract ruling compatible with the koran? since unfortunatly the shariah is not always compatable with the koran(see the unanswered question in my first post) |
Shari'ah
The root of this word is Shara'a; and some other names of it are Shar', Shir'ah and Tashri'. The Shari'ah is the revealed and the canonical laws of the religion of Islam.
- Ijtihad is exerting or striving of one to his utmost (synonymous with sincerity) abilities to extract rulings and principles compatible with the Shariah (revealed Law etc)
| Basicaly ijtihad is the striving or process of extracting Fiqh(or Law as it is known today) from the Shariah. So Fiqh is now law and not understanding anymore? who changed the word Fiqh from understanding(according to the prophet) into law(as it is known today)? |
Fiqh
The meaning of the word fiqh is understanding, comprehension, knowledge, and jurisprudence in Islam. A jurist is called a Faqih who is an expert in matters of Islamic legal matters.
What is in the brakets is the context of that definition, meaning many people today simply view it as islamic law. The Islamic defanition is above.
| Saying there is no ijtihad in Islam is not corect since any shaykh which has come up with a new ruling in Islam is doing Ijtihad(extracting rulings). Shaykh, it depends who listens to him right? so what are the criteria for a sheykh to be followed? the loudness of his voice? the financial resources he has? or his fear of Allah? and how does one measure that? |
The point is, any shaykh who has atempted to derive a new law in islam regardless of whether it is acepted or not has performed ijtihad, this is the meaning of the word. Not every shaykh is accepted but that is not the argument at all. It is those who do not follow a madhhab which the Scholars of this Ummah reject, syaing otherwise is like trying to re-write history.
| you are correct, since the shariah is not always compatable with the koran. how is this possible? men can be wrong, and sometimes killed and opressed for speaking the truth, and through the ages only the koran has remained the same, not men's opinions, rulings and regulations even as to how to derive knowledge "....indeed,(who) fear(dread) Allah are those who have knowledge,verily Allah is mighty (again and again) forgiving" chapter 35:28 the originator(faatir)so this means those who have knowledge fear, dread Him. |
This is wrong, how can the shariah contradict the Quran when the Quran is part of the Shariah. In the context of ijtihad and the defanition of it above Shariah means revealed law in the Quran and Sunnah. General arguments are not efective when discussing Usul al Fiqh since it is a finite discussion and atention to detail is utmost. General arguments ignore to much to be of any value.
Ijtihad
Exerting the sum total of one's ability attempting to uncover Allah's rulings on issues from their sources (Qur'an, Sunnah, Ijma', etc.). Sometimes divided into complete ijtihad (the ability of one to independently arrive at Allah's rulings in all areas of fiqh) and partial ijtihad (the ability of one to do so only in certain areas of fiqh in which they have exerted such efforts).
How can anyone say this is not in Islam, it basicaly means Finding out what Laws Allah has revealed to us in The Quran and Sunnah of rasul allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam).
You are confusding it With Qiyas which "in fiqh means to use analogy to conclude towards a ruling." not specificaly mentioned in the Shariah.(corection it is mentioned by rasul allah himself in a hadith instructing a shaba upone sending him to teach a tribe to use this aspect of ijtihad if he cannot find anything Specificaly mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah on an issue which may come up.)
Let me explain this to you, everyone will stand alone before Him with the decisions they made in this life, Allah wishes two things from us, to fear Him and at the same time hope for His mercy. This should be done in everything we do even "Ijtihad" deriving knowledge, and if one does this, He will forgive him his sins and better his works, as promised in the koran. So yes everyone needs to fear Him and hope for His mercy and with those 2 qualities seek the truth in matters. |
This is ignorant of what Islamic law encompasses.
| Man yahdi Allaho fa huwal muhtad waman yudhlil fa laa hadiya lah". In English: who ever Allah guides this one then is the guided and who ever He leads astray there is none who can guide him" This sounds like a verse from the koran, but is it?, it is what i have heard "shuyukh and scholars" use, the verse that i know is:" who ever Allah guides then this is the guided and who ever He leads astray these are the losers" (chapter 7 Al A'raaf "The high places" verse: 178) Shame on me if i am wrong. |
Can you be more clear are you saying our scholars are misguided now?
None of your arguments are new, this is nothing but wahabi rhetoric and not a real analysis of the issue.
Edited by rami
|
|
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
|
|
Community
Guest Group
Joined: 19 May 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1135
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 May 2005 at 4:17pm |
|
For those who do not know, Allahu Akbar means Allah is greater, not great or the greatest as many say in ignorance (i hope), since "Allah is great" in arabic would be "Allahu kabeer", and "Allah is The Greatest" would be "Allahu AL-Akbar", the oposite of greater is smaller, in arabic greater is "Akbar", and smaller is "Asghar".
|
|
Community
Guest Group
Joined: 19 May 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1135
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 May 2005 at 4:10pm |
[QUOTE=rami] Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
Assalamu alaikum
Before i reply i should make something clear, What i posted above are some of the laws Governing the process of ijtihad as defined by our scholars, This is part of Usul al Fiqh not Fiqh it self.
Fiqh means To Understand, it is narated from rasul allah (salla llahu alaihi wa sallam) that he said " He who seeks from Allah for Goodness, Allah will Give him Understanding in the Deen". Fiqh is understanding in the Deen.
I will repeat the defanition of Ijtihad.
- Ijtihad is exerting or striving of one to his utmost (synonymous with sincerity) abilities to extract rulings and principles compatible with the Shariah. How about striving with utmost abilities to extract ruling compatible with the koran? since unfortunatly the shariah is not always compatable with the koran(see the unanswered question in my first post)
Basicaly ijtihad is the striving or process of extracting Fiqh(or Law as it is known today) from the Shariah. So Fiqh is now law and not understanding anymore? who changed the word Fiqh from understanding(according to the prophet) into law(as it is known today)?
Saying there is no ijtihad in Islam is not corect since any shaykh which has come up with a new ruling in Islam is doing Ijtihad(extracting rulings). Shaykh, it depends who listens to him right? so what are the criteria for a sheykh to be followed? the loudness of his voice? the financial resources he has? or his fear of Allah? and how does one measure that?
What you have basicaly said or implied is that it is not permisable "to extract rulings and principles compatible with the Shariah." you are correct, since the shariah is not always compatable with the koran. how is this possible? men can be wrong, and sometimes killed and opressed for speaking the truth, and through the ages only the koran has remained the same, not men's opinions, rulings and regulations even as to how to derive knowledge "....indeed,(who) fear(dread) Allah are those who have knowledge,verily Allah is mighty (again and again) forgiving" chapter 35:28 the originator(faatir)so this means those who have knowledge fear, dread Him.
The result of your second argument on not trusting scholars is that every person should become his or her own Mujtahid which is kind of contradictory when you ask them to rely on someone they trust. Let me explain this to you, everyone will stand alone before Him with the decisions they made in this life, Allah wishes two things from us, to fear Him and at the same time hope for His mercy. This should be done in everything we do even "Ijtihad" deriving knowledge, and if one does this, He will forgive him his sins and better his works, as promised in the koran. So yes everyone needs to fear Him and hope for His mercy and with those 2 qualities seek the truth in matters.
Please dont be so Quick to label our scholars with terms such as bidah when the only way you have recieved the Quran and ahadith which you trust is through them and the methodology they developed to preserve them. All the scholars of Islam followed a Madhhab and many of them have the madhhab they followed in there names."Man yahdi Allaho fa huwal muhtad waman yudhlil fa laa hadiya lah". In English: who ever Allah guides this one then is the guided and who ever He leads astray there is none who can guide him" This sounds like a verse from the koran, but is it?, it is what i have heard "shuyukh and scholars" use, the verse that i know is:" who ever Allah guides then this is the guided and who ever He leads astray these are the losers" (chapter 7 Al A'raaf "The high places" verse: 178) Shame on me if i am wrong.
When you have a Sytem of Governence like the Khalifha that Government also requires a Law system by which to rule, Islam has Four systems namely the four Madhhabs. When the leader comes, the believers will recognize him, and will follow him, make sure you are on the right, and on the right means to fear Allah and hope for His mercy.
We are not discussing the islamic legal system just one aspect of it, insha allah we can stay on topic. .Insha Allah.
Edited by Community
|
|
Tweet
