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QheQ View Drop Down
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MY REPLY TO FATIMA (Her comments from her last post are being given in BOLD below.)

Brother I am ever so sorry to say this but if a person does not know how to ride a horse and he enters a competition for show jumping, people would say things about that. You need to understand the basic concepts before you could actually discuss them and you could easily search them in google or anywhere else for that matters. A Messenger is also a prophet but not the other way round. So when a term like rasool is used for a human rasool then it does also mean prophet but as rasool is a higher status so Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is addressing them with more respect.

I apologize but you seem to be in stronger need of the horse riding metaphor. 1, The word 'rassoul' not meaning 'prophet' (or whatever) was minuteman's (page 4) and andulas's mingled submissions, not mine. 2, Whatever rasoul may mean, the question is if Quran says that it is the 'Qaul-e-rasool', why use interpretations? isn't it these interpretations that lead to differences?

It tells us that to follow religion properly you need to look at sunnah of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam too, and ahadith are best form of that.

Like the way you say; where exactly does it ask at the SUNNAH of Muhammad (pbuh). Are you saying that the prophet didn't possibly act according to Quran's teachings and produced a different path? Again you say 'Hadiths are best for that'. Why not 'The Quraan itself is the best for that'?

Where exactly does it say that?

I realize that your problem is that you are relying on 'English' (or any other) translation. Read the Arabic script, especially paying heed to the wordings of 45:6.


[69:40] Most surely, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger,
[69:41] And it is not the word of a poet; little is it that you believe;
[69:42] Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind.

It surely means Rasool as in Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam in these ayaat. I am sure you must have heard the expression, 'kahin ki eentt kahin ka rodrha' (sorry not trying to be rude to non urdu speaking people but cant find a better expression in english)


I agree with you with your Urdu expression that better applies to the concept of 'relying on English translation and ignoring the original Arabic text'. I know no better translation of 69:40 than 'rasool's word'. If 'rasool' here had meant angel, there would have been no need for using the expressions 'poet's word' etc. in verses 41 and 42.

Again What??????

Here alone you sound logical. I made a mistake in quoting the reference. It was to be 8:20 and not 8:13. Pardon.

Where exactly is it telling you how to pray? One ayaah you could seem to be mistaking is not even saying what you are trying to take as justification of you misguided attitude. I am sorry to say that but thats exactly what root cause is for you and many others who think "I, the intelligent one". The Ayaah is saying, 'And magnifies the name of his Lord and Prays', not in prayer, and prays.

Read the Arabic text of 87:15 and get the answer. The right translation would be "And remembered the names of his Lord, THUS offered prayer" (Fa Salla). The Dhameer FA means 'hence' or 'thus'.

Islam is not what you prefer and could go along easily with your life style, it is what was revealed 1400 years ago and practised in its best form back then. If you truely seeking guidance then follow as it was practised by the ones who were given glad tidings of pleasure of their Lord in this world. If you want to follow you own desires then do not try to find its justification in Holy Qur'an. What you trying to suggest of 'lets do' is an innovation in deen of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.


May I have the permission to say that Islam is even not what you prefer.... and so on. Well, I remember an Ayah (wa la tafarraqoo) "... and do not get divided."

Have you ever thought what causes this division?

Regards


Edited by QheQ
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Points: 1642 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2007 at 9:29am

 

 I have not been able to understand the purpose of the posts of QheQ. Islam is to be understood by Quran, Sunnah and Hadith. That is the general understanding of all Muslims. QheQ please indicate what you believe.
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Points: 979 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatima Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2007 at 4:37am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

 

Originally posted by QheQ QheQ wrote:

What I understand from most responses is that

1. The validity of Hadith is being supported by Quraanic verses saying "Ati-ullaha wa ati-ur-rasool".
2. The word "rasoul" in 69:38-43 does not mean "prophet"

 

Brother I am ever so sorry to say this but if a person does not know how to ride a horse and he enters a competition for show jumping, people would say things about that. You need to understand the basic concepts before you could actually discuss them and you could easily search them in google or anywhere else for that matters. A Messenger is also a prophet but not the other way round. So when a term like rasool is used for a human rasool then it does also mean prophet but as rasool is a higher status so Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is addressing them with more respect.

 

Originally posted by QheQ QheQ wrote:

For the first statement, what I understand is that the Quran is saying "follow Allah" AND "Follow the rasoul". This does not seem to make Hadith a valid "source".

[/QheQ]

 

It tells us that to follow religion properly you need to look at sunnah of Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam too, and ahadith are best form of that.

 

Originally posted by QheQ QheQ wrote:

As far as the source of guidance is concerned, 45:2-9 declare that the source of this guidance is Quran ALONE.


 

[45:2] The revelation of the Book is from Allah, the Mighty, the Wise.
[45:3] Most surely in the heavens and the earth there are signs for the believers.
[45:4] And in your (own) creation and in what He spreads abroad of animals there are signs for a people that are sure;
[45:5] And (in) the variation of the night and the day, and (in) what Allah sends down of sustenance from the cloud, then gives life thereby to the earth after its death, and (in) the changing of the winds, there are signs for a people who understand.
[45:6] These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?
[45:7] Woe to every sinful liar,
[45:8] Who hears the communications of Allah recited to him, then persists proudly as though he had not heard them; so announce to him a painful punishment.
[45:9] And when he comes to know of any of Our communications, he takes it for a jest; these it is that shall have abasing chastisement.

Where exactly does it say that?

 

Originally posted by QheQ QheQ wrote:

As far as the second statement is concerned, if "rasoul" in surah 69 doesn't mean prophet, why does it necessarily mean "prophet" in "ati-ullaha wa ati-ur-rasoul"?

 

[69:40] Most surely, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger,
[69:41] And it is not the word of a poet; little is it that you believe;
[69:42] Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind.

It surely means Rasool as in Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam in these ayaat. I am sure you must have heard the expression, 'kahin ki eentt kahin ka rodrha' (sorry not trying to be rude to non urdu speaking people but cant find a better expression in english)

 

Originally posted by QheQ QheQ wrote:

For further clarity, please see 8:13 in which Quran says "Atiullaha wa atiur-rasoulu wa laa tawallau anhu". In this ayah, "anhu" is a singular expression which clearly appears to make "atiullah" and "atiur-rasoul" the one and the same thing.

 

[8:13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

Again What??????

 

Originally posted by QheQ QheQ wrote:

And I can see clearly that the Quran says how to pray. In Al-Aala, Quran says: "Qad AflaHa mann Tadhakka. Wa Dhakarasma rabbihi faSalla". So "Salaah" is simply the rememberance of one's RAB. This is how I understand it.

 

[Shakir 87:1] Glorify the name of your Lord, the Most High,
[Shakir 87:2] Who creates, then makes complete,
[Shakir 87:3] And Who makes (things) according to a measure, then guides (them to their goal),
[Shakir 87:4] And Who brings forth herbage,
[Shakir 87:5] Then makes it dried up, dust-colored.
[Shakir 87:6] We will make you recite so you shall not forget,
[Shakir 87:7] Except what Allah pleases, surely He knows the manifest, and what is hidden.
[Shakir 87:8] And We will make your way smooth to a state of ease.
[Shakir 87:9] Therefore do remind, surely reminding does profit.
[Shakir 87:10] He who fears will mind,
[Shakir 87:11] And the most unfortunate one will avoid it,
[Shakir 87:12] Who shall enter the great fire;
[Shakir 87:13] Then therein he shall neither live nor die.
[Shakir 87:14] He indeed shall be successful who purifies himself,
[Shakir 87:15] And magnifies the name of his Lord and prays.
[Shakir 87:16] Nay! you prefer the life of this world,
[Shakir 87:17] While the hereafter is better and more lasting.
[Shakir 87:18] Most surely this is in the earlier scriptures,
[Shakir 87:19] The scriptures of Ibrahim and Musa.

Where exactly is it telling you how to pray? One ayaah you could seem to be mistaking is not even saying what you are trying to take as justification of you misguided attitude. I am sorry to say that but thats exactly what root cause is for you and many others who think "I, the intelligent one". The Ayaah is saying, 'And magnifies the name of his Lord and Prays', not in prayer, and prays.

 

[QUOTE=QheQ]

And last but not least... Wouldn't it be wiser to regard only Quran as the source of Islam and ahadith only as a valuable historic record which may be accepted ONLY IF it is in line with the Quran and NOT on the basis of trust in the people who narrated them?

 

Islam is not what you prefer and could go along easily with your life style, it is what was revealed 1400 years ago and practised in its best form back then. If you truely seeking guidance then follow as it was practised by the ones who were given glad tidings of pleasure of their Lord in this world. If you want to follow you own desires then do not try to find its justification in Holy Qur'an. What you trying to suggest of 'lets do' is an innovation in deen of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

wassalam
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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I have only one comment to make:

I would ask what is a Nabi and what is a Rasool in English. Biblical criterion is that the the propehts prophesised and foretold about events. If that were the standard to verify a prophet then Nostradamus was perhaps the greatest prophet of them all.  

According to the Arabic of Qur'aan, two words have been used for the servants of God. Nabi and Rasool. There were many Nabis who received revelations but they were not given an entire Book or Scripture to transmit it to their people. Rasools received both.

Thus Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were Rasools.

Read Verses 157-158 of Surah 7 Al-aa'raaf and you will note the title given to Muhammad as Rasool-an-Nabi-iyal-Ummi-yal-lazi is self-explanatory in the verses.

Whether one wishes to call him a prophet or messeger, he is both.
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 QheQ, you have appeared after a long time. Perhaps your did not read my post in which it was clearly pointed out that the source of Islam is :

1. The Quran,   2. The Sunnah (the practice of the holy prophet)     3.  The Hadith (the sayings of the prophet  recorded in the books)

All these three are important in that order. hadith is very important for understanding the rligion of Islam. But you have now come back and you are saying that Quran should be taken as the source.. And Hadith should be kept as a valuable historic record. You are right that any Hadith which is not in accordance with Quran should not be accepted.
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And last but not least... Wouldn't it be wiser to regard only Quran as the source of Islam and ahadith only as a valuable historic record which may be accepted ONLY IF it is in line with the Quran and NOT on the basis of trust in the people who narrated them?
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And I can see clearly that the Quran says how to pray. In Al-Aala, Quran says: "Qad AflaHa mann Tadhakka. Wa Dhakarasma rabbihi faSalla". So "Salaah" is simply the rememberance of one's RAB. This is how I understand it.
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NOTE: My problem is less the availability of time than soooo many answers to my questions. This roughly feels like facing a storm of pebbles which is not fair. I hope you'll try some way out to let me keep in touch. Also, kindly note that I am trying to be as sincere as possible. Remarks for me like "your ignorance" and "lack of knowledge" hurt me. Well, I try to stay calm. I'd like such remarks to be supported with answers to such questions as "what is my ignorance?" and "please tell me where I am wrong and how." Thanks.

What I understand from most responses is that

1. The validity of Hadith is being supported by Quraanic verses saying "Ati-ullaha wa ati-ur-rasool".
2. The word "rasoul" in 69:38-43 does not mean "prophet"

For the first statement, what I understand is that the Quran is saying "follow Allah" AND "Follow the rasoul". This does not seem to make Hadith a valid "source". As far as the source of guidance is concerned, 45:2-9 declare that the source of this guidance is Quran ALONE.

As far as the second statement is concerned, if "rasoul" in surah 69 doesn't mean prophet, why does it necessarily mean "prophet" in "ati-ullaha wa ati-ur-rasoul"?

For further clarity, please see 8:13 in which Quran says "Atiullaha wa atiur-rasoulu wa laa tawallau anhu". In this ayah, "anhu" is a singular expression which clearly appears to make "atiullah" and "atiur-rasoul" the one and the same thing.

Again, I don't claim I am necessarily right. If I am wrong, please, please correct me.

Regards
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