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Question about rape

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kim! View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kim! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2005 at 7:24pm

Yes, but what happens if a woman or a child doesn't really fight back? What if they are so petrified that they don't fight back, and therefore, don't have bruises and marks and whatever?

In a society where, say, girls can be married at age 9, and therefore, deemed to have the ability to tempt men, how does a terrified, unmarked 9 CHILD prive she was raped, and not guilty of adultery?

Kim...

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2005 at 8:32pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Originally posted by KIM KIM wrote:

Yes, but if a woman first goes to the police, instead of hospital, they might throw her in jail for adultery because they don't care about her or care to take her seriously or care to go looking for the men who did it.

This happens!

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=80352&am p;am p;cat=Asia

Kim, you are not really focuse on your question.

Above you say if the girl goes to the police first .... and then you quote a link which says:

Quote

Nazish, a student of the Government Allama Iqbal Girl College, Sialkot, was kidnapped on January 3 by some car-riders while going to her college. She was kept at an undisclosed place for 37 days before the police recovered her.

Quoting sources, The News today reported that Musharraf has ordered an immediate probe into the gang-rape case that hit headlines worldwide. The President reportedly asked the authorities to leave no stone unturned to reach the truth and unmask the culprits involved in the heinous crime.

Your quote does not match well with your concerns.

Then you say:

Quote Yes, but what happens if a woman or a child doesn't really fight back? What if they are so petrified that they don't fight back, and therefore, don't have bruises and marks and whatever?

A society where girls are married at the age of 9 is likely to be a very closed society. Women are available to men since the age of 9. They keep their women behind painted windows, and they practice honor killings as well. The picture you are trying to paint does not sum up very well ... tho I understand your concerns.

Peace,

Nausheen

 

<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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kim! View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kim! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2005 at 11:06pm

It matches perfectly well, I think - she was raped and THEN saw the police _before_ she could get to a hospital. Now, maybe she didn't actively _go_ to the police, they found her instead, but what's the difference?

Assuming these police are as ignorant and as repulsive as they appear to be, what would they have done if she had been raped and then walked herself into the police station for protection and to report the crime? Sounds like they still would have raped her and thrown her in jail for adultery, don't you think?

Kim...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2005 at 9:57am

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

 

Hello Kim,

What I read from the article, She was kept at an undisclosed place for 37 days before the police recovered her.

So, basically, the police did not throw her in jail for the crime being commited on her. - In other words, the report does not seem to say, she was accused of adultry and then put into jail, as you have implied in your former responses, or is there anything I am missing?

Peace,

Nausheen



Edited by Nausheen
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kim! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2005 at 5:08pm

No, she was kidnapped for 37 days, raped during this time by her captors, and then the police found her, took her back to the station and raped her again.

I will try to find other examples of my point, if you wish.

Kim...

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MOCKBA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MOCKBA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2005 at 7:45pm

let me repeat.

well, this is a kind of question that cannot have a general answer without reference to a specific case. There are so many aspects to be considered in a thorough investigation... this is Sherlock Holmes stuff, science of crime detection... it is not as raw as some qadi (judge) going through private parts of the victim with a magnifying glass and shouting out a verdict to a crowd of dishevelled bearded toothless apparition-like onlookers in scuffed clothes, as some may mistakenly want to imagine. 
 

The way the discussion has developed, it has no longer relevance to Islamic perspective on rape adultery and punishemnt for both. It is more of injustice performed by the very people appointed to establish order.

 

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kim! View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kim! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2005 at 8:30pm

Ok, so let's go back to the original question - how does a woman who cannot get 4 witnesses to confirm she was attacked and that she was not part of mutually consenting adultery report that she has been raped without being punished for adultery?

Kim...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MOCKBA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2005 at 9:57pm

...through a thorough investigation that will take into account her story, evidences, events and all available data with reference to the crime and the accused (if he is known).

4 witnesses are required for someone to accuse someone else of adultery. For example for a husband to accuse his wife, or for a neighbour to accuse the wife of his neighbour, or for a relative to accuse the husband of her relative. In this case 4 witnesses are required, to prevent the gossipers' tongue from destroying innocent families out of spite and jealousy. If you saw something, produce another 4 witnesses... otherwise mind your own business and take a walk. I must add that going through specifics of the procedure one will come to a conclusion that it is very difficult to accuse and prove someone guilty of adultery.

Rape case is different. As i said earlier, and if more knowledgeable and informed people on this board could provide more evidence, it is not a conseted act and is most probably classified under transgression. In this case, a different and thorough investigation will take place, which may not require four witnesses but will welcome any. Once a woman makes a report of being raped... it is not adultery and she has to present her case accordingly... under transgression you need not come up with 4 witnesses if you can't. She should not conceal the crime... But many cultures, mainly due to tribal customs and beliefs, there is negative treatment of vicitms... which is un-Islaamic and purely cultural. This makes victims ashamed to report and conceal the crime... and can create more complexities in the future. Mind, this is not Islaam. 

Adultery may be artificially turned to rape when (despite initial consent of both) one of the parties accuses the other of using force... Most of the time, it is licentious men that fall victims (though the punishment is the same, anyway), for it is not always easy for a woman to rape a men, although must admit there are known and rare instances.

With regards to the case you made reference to, and as Sister Nausheen pointed out, it is not clear what was the woman jailed for, was it adultery or was it something else. It may be the act of pure injustice performed by the police, a frame, a falsification (remeber appearance versus reality)... even in so-called civilized countries they have heavily guarded facilities where rape and torture is brought upon people who don't know their crimes by the people that are assigned to guard and take care of the former. It is not about rape and adultery anymore... its evolution to a greater evil.

 

 



Edited by MOCKBA
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