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Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) in the Bible

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mochiah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mochiah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2007 at 2:49am

What you are posting is not what is written:

 

Originally posted by mochiah mochiah wrote:

No the above is wrong:

Yeshayahu - Chapter 21

with commentary of Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki)

(1040-1105 C.E.)

 

1. The harsh prophecy of the western desert; like tempests in an arid land, to pass, coming from the desert, from an awesome land.

The harsh prophecy of the western desert This prophecy refers to Babylonia, as is delineated therein. If you ask, Did he not already prophesy about it (supra 13): "On a tranquil mountain raise a banner," and the entire chapter? sometimes the prophecy comes into his mouth today in one manner, and later in another manner.

The harsh prophecy of the western desert Jonathan paraphrases: A harsh prophecy concerning the armies that come from the desert, as numerous as the waters of the sea.

like tempests in arid land, to pass Like a tempest that whirls in an arid land, that raises much dust.

to pass So will many camps pass to come upon Babylon.

from the desert they shall come to them (lit.. to her).

from an awesome land Jonathan renders: From a land where mighty deeds have been performed. It is also possible to explain that it is a place of snakes and scorpions, as it is said (Deut. 8:15): "The great and awesome desert."

2. A harsh prophecy was told to me; The traitor shall be betrayed and the plunderer shall be plundered; march, O Elam, Besiege, O Media! All sighs have I brought to an end.

A harsh prophecy The prophet says, "This harsh prophecy concerning Babylon was told to me."

the traitor shall be betrayed Jonathan renders: The robbers are robbed and the plunderers are plundered. The Hebrew wording, according to the Targum, is to be explained thus: The traitor another will come and betray him; and the plunderer another will come and plunder him. These are Persia and Media, who rob and plunder Babylon, who, until now plundered and robbed all the countries.

march, Elam and come upon them (lit., her).

besiege, O Media (������). I.e., besiege Babylon with a siege. Comp. (II Sam. 22:3) "God is my rock (������)." The accent is on the latter syllable, on the "resh," whereas, in this case, the accent is on the first syllable, like "rise (������)", "return (�������)."

all sighs have I brought to an end (���������). (This is) not (spelled with a) "Mappiq heh," (which would mean "her sigh") for this is like "all sighs in the world," and it is an expression denoting a great sigh of many people (sospiradic in O.F.). All sighs have I brought to an end, for the world was sighing because of the yoke of the kingdom of Babylon; now I have brought it to an end.

3. Therefore, my loins are filled with trembling; pangs have seized me like the pangs of a woman in labor; I have become confused from hearing; I have become frightened from hearing.

my loins are filled with trembling The prophet is merciful and sighs over the retribution meted out to the nations. This is the Midrash Aggadah (Tan., beginning of Balak). According to its simple meaning, however, the prophet is reciting the lamentation and the mourning as though this were Babylonia lamenting.

pangs (�������), an expression denoting trembling and pains. And our Rabbis said: A woman has doors and hinges (�������) on her womb just as the doors of a house have hinges (Bechoroth 45a).

I became confused This is a malady known as ������, convulsions, in the language of the Sages.

4. My heart has strayed; fright has terrified me; the evening of my desire He has made for me into trembling.

fright (����������). fright.

the evening of my desire The night that I longed for, for rejoicing and for a banquet. In the Book of Josipon we find that he was happy since his troops had defeated the army of Persia. (Book 1, ch. 5) That night He made for me into trembling, as it is said (Dan. 5:1): "King Belshazzar made a great feast� They drank wine�(verse 4). On that very night, King Belshazzar was slain�(verse 30)." (6:1) "And Darius the Mede received the kingdom."

5. Setting the table, setting up the lamp, eating, drinking; "Arise, princes, anoint a shield!"

setting up the lamp (���������), Set up the lamp. In Gen. Rabbah (63:14) we learn that people call a lamp ��������.

eating, drinking And in the midst of the eating and the drinking, they cried, "Arise, princes!"

anoint a shield They were shields of boiled leather, and they would anoint them with oil so that the weapons would glide off. The same is mentioned concerning Saul (II Sam. 1:21): "For there the shield of the mighty was rejected." It rejected its anointing and did not absorb it, and Saul�s shield became as though it was not anointed with oil.

6. For so has the Lord said to me, "Go, set up the lookout; what he sees he will tell.

Go set up the lookout One of your disciples is destined to complain about My attribute, concerning the long prosperity of Babylon, and that was Habakkuk who made a circle and stood inside it, and said (Habakkuk 2:1), "On my watch will I stand, and I will look out to see what He will speak within me." Said the Holy One, blessed be He, "Put up that lookout and promise him in My Name that he will stand on his watch and what he sees in the downfall of Babylon he will tell."

7. And he shall see a chariot with a pair of riders; one riding a horse and one riding a camel, and he shall listen attentively.

And he shall see a chariot and I will show him there a sort of chariot with a pair of riders, one riding a donkey and one riding a camel, and that is a sign of Persia and Media.

and he shall listen attentively And there he shall hear in his prophecy a representation of the mighty rumbling and stirring of armies.

8. And the lion called, "On the watchtower, O Lord, I always stand by day, and on my watch I stand all the nights.

And the lion called That is Habakkuk. ������� (lion) has the same numerical value as Habakkuk. Isaiah prophesied that Habakkuk was destined to pray for this and say the following.

on the watchtower, O Lord O Lord, my God, I always stand on the watchtower to inform me about this.

9. And behold this is coming, a chariot of men, a pair of riders." And he called out and said, "Babylon has fallen, yea, it has fallen, and all its graven idols he has dashed to the earth."

And behold this is coming When he prays concerning this, he will see sort of a chariot of men, etc.

Babylon has fallen, yea, it has fallen Jonathan renders: Has fallen and is also destined to fall. This denotes two downfalls in two consecutive years, first through Media and Persia, and in the second year, through Heaven, as it is stated (supra 13:19): "And Babylon, the beauty of the kingdoms, the glory of the pride of the Chaldees, shall be like God�s overturning of Sodom�" And so we find in Seder Olam (ch. 28): And in that year the news came concerning Darius, and after him, in the year, the news, "And Babylon, the beauty of the kingdoms� shall be like the overturning, etc." (supra 13:19).

10. My threshed grain and the product of my threshing floor. What I heard from the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, I have related to you.

My threshed grain and the product of my threshing floor My hallowed grain, the stack of wheat which I was commanded by the Holy Spirit to rectify you and lead you on the straight path, like a man who threshes and winnows his grain on the threshing floor.

What I heard from Him I have related to you.

11. The harsh prophecy of Dumah: To me one calls from Seir, "Watchman, what will be of the night? Watchman, what will be of the night?"

The harsh prophecy of Dumah That is Edom, and so does Scripture say (Ezekiel 27:32): "Who is like Tyre, like Dumah in the midst of the sea?"

To Me one calls from Seir Said the Holy One, blessed be He: "To Me the prophet or the angel calls from the yoke of the kingdom of Seir."

Watchman, what will be of the night? Watcher of Israel, what will be of this night and this darkness?

12. Said the watchman, "Morning has come, and also night. If you will request, request. Return and come."

Said the watchman The Holy One, blessed be He.

Morning has come I have the ability to make the morning shine for you.

and also night is prepared for the wicked at the time of the end.

if you will request, request If you make your request to hasten the end of the exile.

return and come in repentance.

13. The harsh prophecy concerning Arabia: In the forest in Arabia did you lodge, on the roads of your cousins.

The harsh prophecy concerning Arabia About the Arabs.

In the forest in Arabia did you lodge I saw what you did when Assyria exiled my people, and they begged their captors to lead them through your land, since you are the descendants of their uncles, perhaps you would have mercy on them, and you were going out and lodging in the forest, the road where the caravans pass.

the roads of your cousins the children of your uncle.

14. Toward the thirsty they bring water; the inhabitants of the land of Tema with his bread they came before the wanderer.

Toward the thirsty it is customary to bring water, but you, the inhabitants of the land of Tema, did not do so, but with his bread they came before the wanderer; they brought them sorts of salty foods and blown up flasks full of air, and he would eat and ask to drink, and he would put the opening of the flask into his mouth, and the air would go into his innards, and he would die. Another explanation of "Toward the thirsty they bring water," is as follows: I did not do so to your forefather, Ishmael; when he was thirsty, I revealed to him a well of water.

Since because of the swords they wandered (I.e.,) my people (wandered).

the outstretched sword (���������) , spread over the surface of the earth, as (I Sam. 30:16) "And behold, they were scattered (����������) over the entire landscape," (II Sam. 5:18) "And spread out (��������������) in the Valley of Rephaim." Another explanation is that ��������� is like ���������, sharp. All letters whose sources are close to being from one place, (i.e., from one speech organ,) are interchangeable with one another, the �nun� with the �lamed,� as in the case stated (in Nehemiah 13:7): "To make him a chamber (���������)," like ���������.

15. For, because of the swords they wandered; because of the outstretched sword, because of the bent bow, and because of the pressure of war.

16. For so has the Lord said to me: "In another year, like the days of a hireling, all the glory of Kedar shall terminate.

like the year of a hireling I will be exact with them to limit the time like a hireling, hired by years, who is exact with the time of the completion of his year.

17. And the rest of the number of the bows of the heroes of the children of Kedar shall decrease, for the Lord, the God of Israel has spoken."

And the rest the remnant.

the bows of the heroes of the children of Kedar Archers, for they are like their forefather, (Ishmael,) about whom it is stated (Gen. 21: 2): "And he was an archer."

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Sawtul Khilafah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sawtul Khilafah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2007 at 3:49am
Originally posted by mochiah mochiah wrote:

What you are posting is not what is written:

 

Yes it is and I have taken it from YOUNG LITERAL TRANSLATION

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doo-bop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2007 at 4:17am
Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

[QUOTE=Doo-bop][

 

The prophet claimed to have a messege from God and to be a prophet. For non-Muslims who were Jews or Christians, one only need to look at the bible (even the one we have today) to find criteria for a prophet (his characteristics), and what the central message would be.

 

Well, there were masses of Jews who rejected Paul and his teachings, and the Jews who did recognize Jesus died out. So in the end, Jews would have to look at the soundess of the claims presented by Paul and come to their own conclusion. There was no "absolute" proof available.

So you seem to be saying that the jews rejected Paul for sound reasons.  Are you saying then that it was out of sheer spite that they rejected the claims of Muhammad?  I don't know that there is any reason to suppose they were any less "careful" in inspecting his claims than they were in examining those of Paul 

In all of the writings we have, we know that the main contention of the Jews is that they wanted a prophet who was Jewish. There are sound narratives that reveal writings that the Jews had in their possesion which did point to a coming prophet (saw) in the region.

It is not known what these writings were.

???If these "sound narratives" are islamic, then that is hardly conclusive proof that the jews were expecting the rise of a prophet in the region

 

I agree. I cannot say that this silence is conclusive proof either way, but I will say that I believe it is evidence that the Jews of the region did have a belief and the claims of the Prophet (saw) were not contrary to that belief except that he claimed the line of Ishmael and not Isaac.

A highly recognized exegesis of the passage is most popularly agreed upon that it is about his attributes that one may find in the bible.

So, are you now saying that Muhammad is not, after all, personally mentioned in the Law and the Gospel?  That all we get is the general description of the characteristics of prophethood?  Bear in mind that the Quran refers to the "apostle, the unlettered/gentile apostle, whom they find mentioned in.....".  This, surely, must mean that Muhammad himself is specifically referred to, not just the characteristics of prophethood he claimed for himself

Well, we know for a fact that there is absolutely no record of the life of Jesus outside the Quran that can give any credible historical insight.

Well, it's not much of a record in the Quran, is it?  Can you give me one thing from the Quran that Jesus actually said? (maybe you can, I'm talking off the top of my head here) 

His claim is verified by todays standard bible.

I think you are subtly, or not so subtly, changing the nature of the claim that was made.  You are also, in effect, saying that muslims (for instance the poster sawtul in this thread) are wrong to go looking for personal mentions of Muhammad in the bible.

Please explain one of his attributes that is a point of contention for you that is in direct violation of the basic message of any known prophet.

No, you are saying that his claim is verified by the bible, so you verify it

 

 

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 There is a good debate going on here.

Are you saying then that it was out of sheer spite that they rejected the claims of Muhammad? 

That seems to be true. The reason being, what they understood (or more properly misunderstood) from Deut 18:18. The Jews sincerely believed that THAT PROPHET will be raised from the children of Israel (Jacob a.s.). At the time that Muhammad arrived, the Jews were still believing it to be like that. Even though it was written that That prophet will be raised from the brethren of the Israelis. Thathe willbe the like of Moses a.s.

Some people cannot just believe the blessing of Allah to be universal. That God is the God of all creation. The mistake of the Jews of Arabia was not their own. It was the result of the changes made in the scripture by the elders of the Jews hundreds of years before.

There is a saying "That is what comes out of being a Yankee doodle." So that is what happened here too. The scripture had been (not fully) modified. The line of truth was lost. there was complete misbehaviour amongst the Jews. Otherwise, why would Jesus have to come to them to correct their mistakes. The Jews at that time were so misguided that they decided to kill Jesus. That is the height of ignorance that one tries to kill some one who had come to their aid.

It happens with all nations. the christians also could not remain on the right lines. Do not think that the Muslims remained on the right lines. They have a perfect book. But they do not all  understand it. they do not practice it. So, it is with all nations that with the time, the guidance disappears and falsehood sets in.

In the present times, the Jews have improved somehow, if not spiritually then at least in all other matters of good sense.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mochiah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2007 at 7:57am

Yunus 10:94

����� ����� ��� ����� ������� ���������� �������� ��������� ��������� ����������� ���������� ��� �������� ������ ������ �������� ��� �������� ����� ���������� ���� ��������������

But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those [the Jews] who read the Scriptures before you [the Muslims]. Certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

Al-Baqara 2:136

�������� ������� �������� ����� ������� ��������� ����� ������� ����� ������������ �������������� ���������� ����������� ������������ ����� ������� ������ �������� ����� ������� ������������� ��� ���������� ��� ��������� ������ ������ ��������� �������� ���� �����������

Say, We believe in God, and in that which has been sent down unto us, and and in that which was sent down unto Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac and Jacob, and the Tribes; and in that which was delivered unto Moses and Jesus, and in that which was delivered to the Prophets from the Lord. We make no distinction between any of them; and to Him we are resigned.

Al-Ankaboot 29:46

����� ����������� ������ ���������� ������ ��������� ���� �������� ������ ��������� �������� �������� ��������� ������� ��������� ������� ��������� ��������� ���������� ����������� ������������ ������� �������� ���� �����������

Dispute not with the People of the Book, but in the mildest way, excepting such as behave injuriously; and say, We believe in that which has been revealed unto us, and in that which has been revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and to Him we are resigned.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38 (Kitab al Hudud, ie. Prescribed Punishments), Number 4434:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: Abu Qasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young rabbi was brought..."
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  What is written above seems to be quite right and true. That is what should be the belief of all muslims too. But the Muslims are not required to act according to Torah (BibleOT). They have their own revealed book which is good enough to follow. By following their own book Quran, the Muslims should never harm the interests of the Jews or the christians.

The apostle of Allah did well to deal with the problem at the hands of the jews that he tried to solve their problem from their own book. That was very good. It should be like that. Good for healthy living. There should be no fight or hurtful words or abuse of the sacred scripture of any denomination except by what is actually present in ones own books.

I feel that the above post is vey good, whatever the result.

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Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 

 There is a good debate going on here.

Are you saying then that it was out of sheer spite that they rejected the claims of Muhammad? 

That seems to be true. The reason being, what they understood (or more properly misunderstood) from Deut 18:18. The Jews sincerely believed that THAT PROPHET will be raised from the children of Israel (Jacob a.s.). At the time that Muhammad arrived, the Jews were still believing it to be like that. Even though it was written that That prophet will be raised from the brethren of the Israelis. Thathe willbe the like of Moses a.s.

Ok, minuteman, let me tell you one other thing here.  The jews, you say, believed that the prophet that would be like unto Moses (Deut 18: 18) would be an Israelite.  They were right.  Now, I know you will not believe that unless I prove it to you, so let me prove it to you.

In Deut. 18: 18, God says to Moses - "I will raise up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee.......".  Now muslims like to concentrate on these words "from among their brethren" - why? - because among the brethren of the Israelites were the IshmaelitesOr so the muslims tell us. 

Actually, the Israelites take their name from Israel, which was the name given by God to Jacob.  Now Israel/Jacob was not the brother (or more precisely, not the half-brother) of Ishmael, it was his father Isaac who was Ishmael's half-brother, therefore the Ishmaelites could only be termed "brethren" of the Israelites in a very loose sense indeed.  But that's not all.  Go to Genesis 25: 1, and you will read that Abraham had yet other sons, from his wife Keturah, namely Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah.  If the Ishmaelites are to be viewed as "brethren" of the Israelites, then the descendants of these men must also be viewed as such.

But that is all by the way.  The real key to this is the phrase "from among their brethren", and what it actually means.  If you have a bible, go to Deut. 17: 15 (or google an online bible).  This verse is prophesying the time when the Israelites would have a king. (At the time of Moses, they did not have a king, but that would come later).  Please look and read who would qualify to be the king of the Israelites - it would be "one from among thy brethren".  The Israelites were to set one from among their brethren to be king over them.  It is the same phrase. 

Now, going by the logic of some muslims, that must mean that every king of Israel should have been an Ishmaelite.  But no king of Israel was an Ishmaelite. The kings anointed by God - Saul, David, Solomon, and their descendants, were all Israelites.  And why? Because that is what the phrase "from among their brethren" means, it means "from among their brethren, the Israelites".  It means "from among themselves, and noone else"

The conclusion I draw from this is that Deuteronomy 18: 18 clearly does not refer to Muhammad at all, but to a future Israelitish prophet, indeed I believe it refers to the Lord Jesus Christ

  



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 Sorry Doo-bop, if that prophet was to come from the Israelis then it would have been worded "From amogst them", not "From amongst their brethren". That is a very simple understanding. There had been only two branches from Abraham, that is Ishmael and Issac. Both were blessed. It is known that the Ishmaelis are the brethren of the Israelis. Israelis cannot be the brethren of the Israelis.

Also, a prophet the like of Moses. we can prove from Quran that Muhammad is the prophet like Moses, by a direct statement. Can any one point out from the bible NT that Jesus was the prophet the like of Moses?? Not possible. Also, we know that there is no similarity between Moses and Jesus. One is man god, the other is a prophet. One brought a law for the people, the other tried to strengthen that law. One (Moses) was senior. The other (Jesus) was the follower of Moses a.s.

There are other problems. God said He will put His words in his mouth. He will tell all to his people. Jesus did not tell all. See John ch.16. God said He will take account of all those who did not listen to that prophet. Jesus was punished by Jews. God did not do anything to the Jews apparantly for a very long time (300 years). Such things did not happen in the time of Muhammad.

Please consider all aspects and then think if it could be Muhammad who was That Prophet. We are discussing for the purpose of finding out the truth. There is no malice or compulsion. Every one will reap the benfits of his/ her own beliefs.

 

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