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Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) in the Bible

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minuteman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2007 at 11:50am

 

 First thing first. In verse 73:15 it is said "Surely we have sent to you the messenger like we sent a messenger to Pharoah." What else proof do you need Doo-bop? You certainly know who was sent to Pharoah.

About Deut 17:15, that is correct about a King for the ISRAELIS. Not for a prophet for them and the world. That is written there that they will have a brother king. There is not only written brethren but also written brother too. It is natural that the king will be from the Israelis.

We have a complete narrative about the selection of a king for the Jews described in the Quran. That was when Saul was appointed a king for them. It is in Quran. That has nothing to do with a prophet the like of Moses to be raised.

Now Jews are in double trouble. The christians are fighting that That prophet is Jesus. The Jews do not admit him as a good man even. The Muslims admit Jesus as a prophet but christians think that is not enough goodness of the Muslims. The Muslims should believe in Jesus as a god. That is not possible.

The Jews are in double trouble because their saviour (Jesus ) had come to them but they rejected him. That was their first mistake. Then came Muhammad, the like of Moses as described in Deut 18:18. The Jews rejected him too. So, they are waiting for some one, I do not know who.

Are they waiting for their Messiah? Or or they waiting for That Prophet? What is the reality, only a man from the children of Jacob can tell us.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doo-bop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2007 at 8:12am

minuteman, you said:-

"It is not your fault. Perhaps it is my fault that I did not read your poat properly. I will now read about the Kings and then i will give myopinion."

Yes, read Deuteronomy 17: 15, as I pointed out, and let me know what you think.

Thank you for the reference to the Quran you gave (73: 15).  It certainly does indicate that both Muhammad and Moses were apostles, but it does not make clear, at least in the translation I have, that Muhammad was "the prophet like unto Moses"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 9:08am

 

So I haven't been able to convince you!  Well, minuteman, that leaves you with the big problem of the kings of Israel, which I drew your attention to. I agree with you that the understanding you have of the phrase "from among their brethren" is simple.  But what surely matters is how the Israelites themselves understood it.  And the fact is that the prophet Samuel anointed Saul and David, both Israelites, not Ishmaelites, to be kings over Israel

 It is not your fault. Perhaps it is my fault that I did not read your poat properly. I will now read about the Kings and then i will give myopinion.

As I said, the Ishmaelites are brethren of the Israelites, but distantly.  Properly speaking, the brethren of the Israelites would be the Edomites, the descendants of Esau, who was the twin brother of Jacob/Israel.  You really are s t r e t c h i n g a point when you claim that "from among their brethren" is a reference to the Ishmaelites

Also, a prophet the like of Moses. we can prove from Quran that Muhammad is the prophet like Moses, by a direct statement. Can any one point out from the bible NT that Jesus was the prophet the like of Moses?? Not possible. Also, we know that there is no similarity between Moses and Jesus. One is man god, the other is a prophet. One brought a law for the people, the other tried to strengthen that law. One (Moses) was senior. The other (Jesus) was the follower of Moses a.s.

Well, please give the reference from the Quran for this "direct statement".  I am always interested to know such things.  (Please see Quran 73:15) The New Testament says that the Lord Jesus is "the prophet like Moses".  We read this in Acts 3: 22-26.  The apostle Peter is here preaching the Holy Gospel to the jews in Jerusalem, and he quotes the verses in Deuteronomy 18, with reference to his own days - v. 24.  The Lord Jesus himself said "Moses wrote of me" - John 5: 46. 

There is no similarity between Moses a.s. and Jesus a.s. Jesus is a controvertial figure because the people that he came for did not accept him and do not accept him even today as a truthful person. But the christians made him into a god. See the wide gap between two opinions??

It is proved from the acts chapter 3 that That Prophet had not yet arrived even after the departure of Jesus. I will present the text soon. At the same time I will present the exact verse of the Quran which states "Surely we have sent to you a messenger who is a witness amongst you exactly as We had sent a messenger to the Pharoah." The Verse number I may write later.

And of course we can see great similarities between Moses and the Lord Jesus as a prophet (of course they were not similar with regard to the Lord's deity).  Both came out of Egypt to do the work of God.  Both were mediators of a covenant for the children of Israel.  Both performed great signs and wonders and miracles.  Both were Israelites.  These things, as far as I know,  cannot be said about Muhammad.  (But no doubt you will be able to produce a list of similarities between Moses and Muhammad! -I seem to remember seeing one somewhere once)

That Diety of Jesus a.s. makes a lot of difference. The Category changes. The Category of Moses a.s. is different to that of Jesus a.s.

There are other problems. God said He will put His words in his mouth. He will tell all to his people. Jesus did not tell all. See John ch.16. God said He will take account of all those who did not listen to that prophet. Jesus was punished by Jews. God did not do anything to the Jews apparantly for a very long time (300 years). Such things did not happen in the time of Muhammad.

Well, no, it does not say he will tell all.  Deuteronomy 18: 18 says - "he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him", which the Lord Jesus did - John 17: 8 -"I have given them the words which thou gavest me."  And it was not long till God came in in judgement against the jews because of their rejection of Christ.  You say it was after 300 years, but it was only 37 years after they crucified the Lord.  In AD70, the Romans desecrated and destroyed the temple, sacking Jerusalem and scattering the jews.  That was the end of  jewish authority in the land for another 1878 years, until 1948, when the modern-day state of Israel was founded.  But the jews still don't have the temple mount, or a temple, or temple worship, and their whole history since AD70 has been one of persecution.  That's a terrible price to pay, I would have thought

You are right. It does not say in Deut 18:18 that he will say all. My mistake. But God said that whoever will not listen to him then God will take an account of him. Nothing like that happened even though after 70 years the jews were in some trouble. But think of the christians too. They were in trouble (hiding) for another 300 years.

Btw, which verse in John 16 were you talking about?

I will post that verse later. I cannot find my own words now. So, it will be later when I have the other references. I feel that ref. of John ch.16 was out of place. It was misfit. Please forget that.  But now I refer you to Deut 18:20. That also goes in favor of Muhammad.

Also about Essau, there is no need. The blessing has started from Abraham in his seed. The brethren will be seen from the children of Abraham and not Jacob please.

I am not a political and I do not see anything wrong with what is going on in Palestine now. These are temporary things. That land was promised to the children of Abraham, as per bible and Quran. So, there has been fighting going on there since time immemorial, i.e. Joshua and Saul and david... then later by the Arab Muslims and now by the Israelis occupying the land. I have nothing against anything about that.

 I hope the colors do not mix up the matter too much. Your comments are in Blue and mine mostly in black. Thanks.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doo-bop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 7:07am
Originally posted by mochiah mochiah wrote:

Since the Time of Jesus that was send to spread the noahite laws to gentiles the Christians have gone astray and started Idolworshipping when the Romans hijaked the message. Then G*D send Muhammad to spread the Noahite Laws to Gentiles.........

This suggests to me that you think the Lord Jesus and Muhammad were proclaiming the same message ie. the "Noahite laws".  Could you clarify?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mochiah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 6:44am

Since the Time of Jesus that was send to spread the noahite laws to gentiles the Christians have gone astray and started Idolworshipping when the Romans hijaked the message. Then G*D send Muhammad to spread the Noahite Laws to Gentiles they have gone astray by turning their hart in to stone and by that missinterpreting the Quran (If you are right in battle you should win that is a law from the Qur'an If you arent you will lose: That is why Arabs have lost all wars against tiny Israel). And today the lord is comming back to us. That is why the tiny state of israel has won all wars : we are fighting the battle of G*D.

G*D never loses a battle!!!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doo-bop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 5:54am
Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 

 Sorry Doo-bop, if that prophet was to come from the Israelis then it would have been worded "From amogst them", not "From amongst their brethren". That is a very simple understanding. There had been only two branches from Abraham, that is Ishmael and Issac. Both were blessed. It is known that the Ishmaelis are the brethren of the Israelis. Israelis cannot be the brethren of the Israelis.

So I haven't been able to convince you!  Well, minuteman, that leaves you with the big problem of the kings of Israel, which I drew your attention to. I agree with you that the understanding you have of the phrase "from among their brethren" is simple.  But what surely matters is how the Israelites themselves understood it.  And the fact is that the prophet Samuel anointed Saul and David, both Israelites, not Ishmaelites, to be kings over Israel

As I said, the Ishmaelites are brethren of the Israelites, but distantly.  Properly speaking, the brethren of the Israelites would be the Edomites, the descendants of Esau, who was the twin brother of Jacob/Israel.  You really are s t r e t c h i n g a point when you claim that "from among their brethren" is a reference to the Ishmaelites

Also, a prophet the like of Moses. we can prove from Quran that Muhammad is the prophet like Moses, by a direct statement. Can any one point out from the bible NT that Jesus was the prophet the like of Moses?? Not possible. Also, we know that there is no similarity between Moses and Jesus. One is man god, the other is a prophet. One brought a law for the people, the other tried to strengthen that law. One (Moses) was senior. The other (Jesus) was the follower of Moses a.s.

Well, please give the reference from the Quran for this "direct statement".  I am always interested to know such things.  The New Testament says that the Lord Jesus is "the prophet like Moses".  We read this in Acts 3: 22-26.  The apostle Peter is here preaching the Holy Gospel to the jews in Jerusalem, and he quotes the verses in Deuteronomy 18, with reference to his own days - v. 24.  The Lord Jesus himself said "Moses wrote of me" - John 5: 46. 

And of course we can see great similarities between Moses and the Lord Jesus as a prophet (of course they were not similar with regard to the Lord's deity).  Both came out of Egypt to do the work of God.  Both were mediators of a covenant for the children of Israel.  Both performed great signs and wonders and miracles.  Both were Israelites.  These things, as far as I know,  cannot be said about Muhammad.  (But no doubt you will be able to produce a list of similarities between Moses and Muhammad! -I seem to remember seeing one somewhere once)

There are other problems. God said He will put His words in his mouth. He will tell all to his people. Jesus did not tell all. See John ch.16. God said He will take account of all those who did not listen to that prophet. Jesus was punished by Jews. God did not do anything to the Jews apparantly for a very long time (300 years). Such things did not happen in the time of Muhammad.

Well, no, it does not say he will tell all.  Deuteronomy 18: 18 says - "he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him", which the Lord Jesus did - John 17: 8 -"I have given them the words which thou gavest me."  And it was not long till God came in in judgement against the jews because of their rejection of Christ.  You say it was after 300 years, but it was only 37 years after they crucified the Lord.  In AD70, the Romans desecrated and destroyed the temple, sacking Jerusalem and scattering the jews.  That was the end of  jewish authority in the land for another 1878 years, until 1948, when the modern-day state of Israel was founded.  But the jews still don't have the temple mount, or a temple, or temple worship, and their whole history since AD70 has been one of persecution.  That's a terrible price to pay, I would have thought

Btw, which verse in John 16 were you talking about?

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2007 at 8:45am

 

 Sorry Doo-bop, if that prophet was to come from the Israelis then it would have been worded "From amogst them", not "From amongst their brethren". That is a very simple understanding. There had been only two branches from Abraham, that is Ishmael and Issac. Both were blessed. It is known that the Ishmaelis are the brethren of the Israelis. Israelis cannot be the brethren of the Israelis.

Also, a prophet the like of Moses. we can prove from Quran that Muhammad is the prophet like Moses, by a direct statement. Can any one point out from the bible NT that Jesus was the prophet the like of Moses?? Not possible. Also, we know that there is no similarity between Moses and Jesus. One is man god, the other is a prophet. One brought a law for the people, the other tried to strengthen that law. One (Moses) was senior. The other (Jesus) was the follower of Moses a.s.

There are other problems. God said He will put His words in his mouth. He will tell all to his people. Jesus did not tell all. See John ch.16. God said He will take account of all those who did not listen to that prophet. Jesus was punished by Jews. God did not do anything to the Jews apparantly for a very long time (300 years). Such things did not happen in the time of Muhammad.

Please consider all aspects and then think if it could be Muhammad who was That Prophet. We are discussing for the purpose of finding out the truth. There is no malice or compulsion. Every one will reap the benfits of his/ her own beliefs.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doo-bop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2007 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 

 There is a good debate going on here.

Are you saying then that it was out of sheer spite that they rejected the claims of Muhammad? 

That seems to be true. The reason being, what they understood (or more properly misunderstood) from Deut 18:18. The Jews sincerely believed that THAT PROPHET will be raised from the children of Israel (Jacob a.s.). At the time that Muhammad arrived, the Jews were still believing it to be like that. Even though it was written that That prophet will be raised from the brethren of the Israelis. Thathe willbe the like of Moses a.s.

Ok, minuteman, let me tell you one other thing here.  The jews, you say, believed that the prophet that would be like unto Moses (Deut 18: 18) would be an Israelite.  They were right.  Now, I know you will not believe that unless I prove it to you, so let me prove it to you.

In Deut. 18: 18, God says to Moses - "I will raise up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee.......".  Now muslims like to concentrate on these words "from among their brethren" - why? - because among the brethren of the Israelites were the IshmaelitesOr so the muslims tell us. 

Actually, the Israelites take their name from Israel, which was the name given by God to Jacob.  Now Israel/Jacob was not the brother (or more precisely, not the half-brother) of Ishmael, it was his father Isaac who was Ishmael's half-brother, therefore the Ishmaelites could only be termed "brethren" of the Israelites in a very loose sense indeed.  But that's not all.  Go to Genesis 25: 1, and you will read that Abraham had yet other sons, from his wife Keturah, namely Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah.  If the Ishmaelites are to be viewed as "brethren" of the Israelites, then the descendants of these men must also be viewed as such.

But that is all by the way.  The real key to this is the phrase "from among their brethren", and what it actually means.  If you have a bible, go to Deut. 17: 15 (or google an online bible).  This verse is prophesying the time when the Israelites would have a king. (At the time of Moses, they did not have a king, but that would come later).  Please look and read who would qualify to be the king of the Israelites - it would be "one from among thy brethren".  The Israelites were to set one from among their brethren to be king over them.  It is the same phrase. 

Now, going by the logic of some muslims, that must mean that every king of Israel should have been an Ishmaelite.  But no king of Israel was an Ishmaelite. The kings anointed by God - Saul, David, Solomon, and their descendants, were all Israelites.  And why? Because that is what the phrase "from among their brethren" means, it means "from among their brethren, the Israelites".  It means "from among themselves, and noone else"

The conclusion I draw from this is that Deuteronomy 18: 18 clearly does not refer to Muhammad at all, but to a future Israelitish prophet, indeed I believe it refers to the Lord Jesus Christ

  



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