IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Islam for non-Muslims
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Fundamentals of organzed religion  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Fundamentals of organzed religion

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
Message
fatima View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Joined: 04 August 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 979
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatima Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2006 at 5:20am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Hi anon, the stats which i shared with you were not to show that this means islam is true religion, islam is a true religion because of its originality and being innate nature of human beings. Those stats were just to say that there is no concept of chosen one in islam as that concept means that you are chose one because you are born with that quality.

The second point of only followers of Prophet Muahammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam entering paradise is bit complicated. I will try to gather all the Quranic verses and ahadith regarding the matter and then inshaAllah try to explain it better.

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
Back to Top
s666 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 07 June 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 214
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote s666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2006 at 2:26am
Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

First the stats of reversion to islam could be taken as human being seeing the truth for truth and accepting it. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala requires us to do that and He has put enough wisdom in us to differentiate between truth and falsehood.


dear fatima, i have nothing to do with the stats.

the fundamental question as i have been saying even to anon123 is "what is good and what is not good?",  which can also be put as "what is truth and what is false?"

it will depend on the person and the community he or she has born into.

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Secondly humans been short sighted is regarding the absolute power of law making. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has kept this for Himself knowing humans are not capable of it. Islam tells people to get married and then have physical relationship, islam forbids any ties outside marital bond, islam asks parents to bring up thier kids in best of thier capacity, give them love and security. Kids are told to respect and obey thier parents. This results in formation of good society. A stable home results in up bringing of another stable generation.


and i think we are talking about the ethical system and not the legal system. to quote you.

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Lastly about being a humanist, yes its all right and true relying on your judgement for taking good from where ever you see it. But at the end of the day, humans are short sighted.


different countries have different legal systems.  one cannot say that a country with the best legal system is more stable.  the problem is with the implementation.

can you tell me which country implements hudud?

isn't your signature itself a contradiction which says Allah is forgiving, merciful but where as Allah does not forgive infidels?

Edited by s666
Back to Top
fatima View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Joined: 04 August 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 979
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatima Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2006 at 5:22am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi anon, here are those ayaat which i mentioned.

4:48 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

So this ayah makes it perfectly clear that Allah subhanahu wa ta�ala forgives every sin other than shirk to whom He wills. But there are other ayaat in the Holy Quran which requires believing in the Prophets alihimus salaam to enter into jannah on the first account on judgement day.

 

Truly, the religion with All�h is Isl�m. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ay�t (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of All�h, then surely, All�h is Swift in calling to account. (Qur'aan 3:19)

 

 [85] And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl�m, it will NEVER be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. [86] How shall All�h guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and after they bore witness that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) is true and after clear proofs had come unto them? And All�h guides not the people who are Z�lim�n (polytheists and wrongdoers). [87] They are those whose recompense is that on them (rests) the Curse of All�h, of the angels, and of all mankind. [88] They will abide therein (Hell). Neither will their torment be lightened, nor will it be delayed or postponed (for a while). (Qur�an 3:85-88)

 

So to enter into paradise you need to believe in the ayaat sent by Allah subhanahu wa ta�ala which subsequently means believing in the Messengers alaihimus salaam as they are means to those Holy books. But then you can quote the first mentioned ayah that if Allah subhanahu wa ta�ala wills, He will forgive every other sin than shirk. Many scholars take this as that people who did not associate anyone with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala will get punished for thier wrongdoings but will be entered into paradise later by will of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. You need to ask yourself that if you believe in oneness of Allah subhanahu wa ta�ala and you are aware of the Messenger alaihis salaam of your time then what is it that�s stopping you from believing and following him.

 

I am not aware of others but this is the easiest concept and faith for me, it tells me that Allah subhanahu wa ta�ala wants people to realise the fact of His oneness. Which I think won�t be hard for anybody who contemplates about the perfect nature of things around us. Allah subhanahu wa ta�ala being Most Merciful then helps us further by sending His ayaat to tell us about the reality. Then He makes it perfect by choosing a human being from amongst us, as a role model infront is easy to follow than a manual script.

 

Hope this answers your query anon

 

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
Back to Top
fatima View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Joined: 04 August 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 979
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatima Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2006 at 5:47am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Originally posted by s666 s666 wrote:


the fundamental question as i have been saying even to anon123 is "what is good and what is not good?",  which can also be put as "what is truth and what is false?"

it will depend on the person and the community he or she has born into.

We as muslims are told that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has put it in humans to be able to differntiate between good and bad. If you look through out the world, the basic morals are quite alike. Lying, stealing, cheating, killing and non-marital relations are all taken as bad. I am sure many would say that in west relationship is a norm but i will ask, why a child outside the marriage is called what its called and its swear word. There must be some thing wrong in that or not?

Now if you want to take it regarding worship then almost every religion believes in a Highest authority but some associate others with that authority in some of His powers. This along with many things are the ones which are through the corruption of human minds.

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Secondly humans been short sighted is regarding the absolute power of law making. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has kept this for Himself knowing humans are not capable of it. Islam tells people to get married and then have physical relationship, islam forbids any ties outside marital bond, islam asks parents to bring up thier kids in best of thier capacity, give them love and security. Kids are told to respect and obey thier parents. This results in formation of good society. A stable home results in up bringing of another stable generation.


and i think we are talking about the ethical system and not the legal system. to quote you.

Thats where the problem starts for people who dont understand islam, islam does not say keep your ethical values totally seperate of your legal ones, same way islam does not give a seperate religious or political system. When we say Islam gives a complete way of life, we mean it. If you keep your ethics totally seperate then with generations your values are going to fall short if they are not protected. Then your legal issues are going to have to change and it ends up in total chaos, best example of this chaos is that of family values and relations in the west.


Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Lastly about being a humanist, yes its all right and true relying on your judgement for taking good from where ever you see it. But at the end of the day, humans are short sighted.


different countries have different legal systems.  one cannot say that a country with the best legal system is more stable.  the problem is with the implementation.

can you tell me which country implements hudud?

Thats where the buck stops for all the critics, dont it? Thats the problem that no country is following the true religion of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. A country with the best legal system is most stable if that country and every one in it is abiding by the law (with the exception of few badies ofcourse). If you look at the time of Umar bin abdul aziz, he was the caliph of one of the greatest empires but there was no one in his state to accept the charity due to prosperity of the nation. He is called the fifth rightly guided caliph even though there were decades between his time and Ali (ra). He was able to change the course of coutry only because he followed and implimented the true laws to himself and his people. 

isn't your signature itself a contradiction which says Allah is forgiving, merciful but where as Allah does not forgive infidels?

Well He is most forgiving to poeple who recognise His rights even though some time they may fall short, who fear the account. But I am confused that if you dont even believe in Him why are you so eager to prove He is not forgiving. If you dont believe in the account what does it matter to you whether He is Mercifull or not?

 

wassalam

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
Back to Top
s666 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 07 June 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 214
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote s666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2006 at 7:51am
Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

But I am confused that if you dont even believe in Him why are you so eager to prove He is not forgiving. If you dont believe in the account what does it matter to you whether He is Mercifull or not?


i never said that i do not believe in the highest authority.  i am just being radically critical.

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Now if you want to take it regarding worship then almost every religion believes in a Highest authority but some associate others with that authority in some of His powers. This along with many things are the ones which are through the corruption of human minds.


dear fatima, how do you know that this is "corruption of human minds"?

isn't it your own belief?

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Thats where the problem starts for people who dont understand islam, islam does not say keep your ethical values totally seperate of your legal ones, same way islam does not give a seperate religious or political system. When we say Islam gives a complete way of life, we mean it. If you keep your ethics totally seperate then with generations your values are going to fall short if they are not protected. Then your legal issues are going to have to change and it ends up in total chaos, best example of this chaos is that of family values and relations in the west.


do you mean to say that severing of one's right hand for stealing is ethical?

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Thats where the buck stops for all the critics, dont it? Thats the problem that no country is following the true religion of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. A country with the best legal system is most stable if that country and every one in it is abiding by the law (with the exception of few badies ofcourse).


so you say that hudud is practical, isn't it?

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

If you look at the time of Umar bin abdul aziz, he was the caliph of one of the greatest empires but there was no one in his state to accept the charity due to prosperity of the nation. He is called the fifth rightly guided caliph even though there were decades between his time and Ali (ra). He was able to change the course of coutry only because he followed and implimented the true laws to himself and his people.


every country has its own great rulers, don't they?


Back to Top
fatima View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Joined: 04 August 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 979
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatima Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2006 at 9:44am

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Hi S666, so how do i know associating other dieties with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is corruption of human mind. Well its easiest thing if you think about it, have you ever seen two heads of state? or even a simplest thing like family situations. One person has to be the decision maker with a bit more authority than the other to run things smoothly, right? Now look at the your surroundings, can you fully comprehend the vastness of the universe? You cant, can you? Have you ever witnessed a matter which could be result of two equal forces working in opposite? The matter of the universe run so smoothly that its creator, guard and operator has to be ONE.

S666 wrote, do you mean to say that severing of one's right hand for stealing is ethical?
Well this is a law sent by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, we do not derive our laws out of ethics, it works other way round for us. Let me tell you two basic concepts of islam, one is that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala forgives His own rights to whomever He wills but He does not forgive right of other people. Second concept is that of gambling being haram. Gambling is haram because you are getting money which you never earned honestly. When you steal, you taking away some1's hard earned money from them. If the punishment is few months in prison or few grands, thief does not really care and makes this easy income his profession, example for this is increasing numbers of thefts in U.K. and many other places. Now if the person knows that on being caught he is going to loose a limb, he is going to think about it long and hard. The best example of this law working is in UAE, you forget your case full of money on a road and if you trace back, you will find it there. In comparison to any where else in the world where you wont even find a 50 if you loose it some where. Now every body talks about how harsh this punishment is but there is a responsibility govt takes when they cut some1's hand. That person get income support all his life.

S666 wrote, so you say that hudud is practical, isn't it?

Yeap,

S666 wrote, every country has its own great rulers, don't they?

Thats where islam differs again. So who is a great ruler? The one who benefits his country most, right? In most recent times, Bush and Blair, they both got elected twice even though they are responsible for creating a chaos in half of the world and murdering many innocent people. Thier people chose them again because they had policies which were benefiting thier country so to hell with the rest of the world, was it not? If you speak to a german, he still considers hitler, the great leader. Because he gave germans a sense of belonging, that they are some thing and many people think that this way of thinking has given them a great boost. But ask a jew, what would he say? Islam says a great ruler is the one who is a good servant of his Lord. The one who does every thing in his capacity to ensure truth and justice reaches every one.

Hope this satisfies your inquisitive mind

wassalam


 

Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
Back to Top
s666 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 07 June 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 214
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote s666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2006 at 9:58am
Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Well its easiest thing if you think about it, have you ever seen two heads of state? or even a simplest thing like family situations.


good question, though we have side tracked.

obviously we do not have two heads of states.  but there are different people doing different jobs, isn't it dear fatima?

a country has a prime minister, a president, a finance minister, a defence minister.  for example, in india, prime minister is the most powerful person but does not have control of the army.  the president has control over the army.  disobeying prime minister isn't theoretically a sin, but disobeying president is treason.

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Hi S666, so how do i know associating other dieties with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is corruption of human mind.


i dont want to talk about other religions but my religion.  my religion is hinduism and in my religion we do not associate dieties with AllahBrahman is immutable.  It is everything.

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Now look at the your surroundings, can you fully comprehend the vastness of the universe? You cant, can you? Have you ever witnessed a matter which could be result of two equal forces working in opposite? The matter of the universe run so smoothly that its creator, guard and operator has to be ONE.


according to my religion, human intellect is itself a part of creation, so one cannot comprehend, with this intellect, the Supreme.  It is beyond reason.

according to your theory, there should be no misery in the universe as Allah controls everything.  but according to your religion Allah is testing us.  why would He/She/It need to test us?  (you may say that it is my ignorance asking such a question, but it is the fundamental question for which different muslim scholar has different 'explanation').

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Well this is a law sent by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, we do not derive our laws out of ethics, it works other way round for us.


dear sister, it is your belief.  i stress it.  it is a belief.

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

When you steal, you taking away some1's hard earned money from them.


einstein simply put it, "God does not play dice".  if a person gambles, he does it with whole of his consciousness and with full awareness that he will lose money or win it.

what about tribute?  what about prizes? what about gifts?

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

thief does not really care and makes this easy income his profession, example for this is increasing numbers of thefts in U.K.


but why does one become a thief?  for food or if he/she is mentally ill.  in US and UK the prisons are called reformatories.

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Now if the person knows that on being caught he is going to loose a limb, he is going to think about it long and hard.


of course, he/she thinks a lot.  but he or she does not steal because of fear and not because of understanding.  but one cannot rule by fear, one can only rule by love, isn't it?

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

The best example of this law working is in UAE, you forget your case full of money on a road and if you trace back, you will find it there.  In comparison to any where else in the world where you wont even find a 50 if you loose it some where.


what about the people going to dubai, bahrain etc. during weekends? (i think i need not elaborate it)

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Now every body talks about how harsh this punishment is but there is a responsibility govt takes when they cut some1's hand. That person get income support all his life.


do you think it is a simple deal?  if that deal is so simple, everyone would become a thief for he or she need not work for the entire lifetime.

its the psychological scars which matter.  he would be traumatized for life.

Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Thats where islam differs again. So who is a great ruler? The one who benefits his country most, right? In most recent times, Bush and Blair, they both got elected twice even though they are responsible for creating a chaos in half of the world and murdering many innocent people.


sister fatima, one simple question and i think it will end the discussion.

why did the muslims invade territories from india to spain?  didn't they kill the same innocent people long back?  as you sow, so shall you reap.
Back to Top
Angela View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2006 at 11:07am
Originally posted by fatima fatima wrote:

Hi S666, so how do i know associating other dieties with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is corruption of human mind. Well its easiest thing if you think about it, have you ever seen two heads of state? or even a simplest thing like family situations. One person has to be the decision maker with a bit more authority than the other to run things smoothly, right?

I shall point out Japan, prior to the fall of the Shogunate.  There were in fact two rulers.  The Emperor who was the Son of Heaven and the Shogun who was the Political and Military leader.  However, that does not apply to what Christians believe.

Okay, answering as a Mormon and not as a standard Christian, you have to understand that God the Father is supreme and Jesus, the Son is his servant as is the Holy Ghost.  They carry out the will of the Father, not their own will.  Thus God is still supreme.  They carry his authority as intermediaries, not in their own right. 

This I have seen as the major misunderstanding Most Muslims have with the belief of Jesus Christ. (In the realm of non Trinitarian Christians)  Giving God "partners" is the wrong way to look at it, these are supreme servants who are still subordinate to God the Father.

Now, as a Mainstream Christian (or Trinitarian) the arguement is absolutely different since Trinitarian Christians believe God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost to be three aspects of the same diety.  God is God, Jesus is the Same as is the Holy Ghost.  There is only one God who takes three forms.  Thus, they are not ascribing Partners, just defining the forms that God has taken in time.  I don't believe this, it doesn't make sense to me and I understand why Muslims also cannot understand this concept. 

But, in Polytheism, there are distinct and different Gods, each with their own authority and domains.  Zues was the King of the Gods, Ares the God of War, Aphrodite the Goddess of Love....this is ascribing partners to God.  This system removes God's complete omnipotence and divides the divine powers into several hands.

When I speak of Christ's healing the sick....as a Mormon, I am speaking of him healing the sick with the power that God gave him.

When a Trinitarian speaks of Christ's healing of the sick, they are speaking of GOD, in the form of Jesus Christ healing the sick.

The fundementals of belief regard one thing, human decision.  I believe because I have decided this belief is true based on instinct, feeling, reason, evidence and rationalization.  This is the same for a Muslim, a Jew or a Hindu.

Free will was the greatest gift that our Lord God gave us.  The freedom to choose right from wrong and to submit or rebel.

Everything is created by his will alone.  That is why we believe (Mormons) there is salvation for everyone.  The punishments will fit the crimes and though the Prison my stand for eternity, that does not mean you will be in it for eternity.  God is absolutely just and absolutely merciful.  Only he can really judge.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.