Interesting Statement by Annie2 |
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Aquinian
Guest Group Joined: 09 June 2006 Status: Offline Points: 61 |
Posted: 26 June 2006 at 5:08pm | ||||||||||
I disagree completely with your characterization of the Christian faith, but no surprise there. I'd say your main claim, in all of that redundant text, is that Christianity is based on implicit claims from a Bible that was created by individuals who had no intent to accurately represent Christ's words. This is clearly false. We have the actual words of Christ and his direct disciples, and we know what he said - it was written down and passed on just like your Koran. Muslims have some notions of Christ but have no idea why they believe what they believe about him. They certainly do not rely on Christ's words in the Bible because his words go against the faith of Islam, as I have proven. Seeing as how the middle east has failed to enter into its own enlightenment period yet, I would vouch for the west's movement into higher thinking during the Rennaissance. You are claiming that the enlightenment undermined the theology of the church, and yet the Catholic Church is the second largest church in the world, next to the church of Muhammad. Christianity is still the largest religion in the world, with many of its newest adherents coming from strongholds of Islam such has Africa. To say that the enlightenment undermined the theology of Catholicism or Christianity at all is a complete fabrication - it clarified it. Muslims point to the simplicity of their faith and somehow believe that it makes it more correct. This is, as I said, an interpretation of Ockham's razor gone wrong. Christ says that you shall know the tree by its fruit. When the fruit of Islam brings so much suffering for so many people, including women who are abused and mistreated by a male elite, children who are indoctrinated into hatred of the Jews, teens who willingly blow themselves up to kill Jews, fundementalists who encourage violence and a return to the middle ages (simplicity for sure), torture and mutilation of those who oppose them, court trials for religious converts, and many many other clear indicators of suffering, one must only conclude that the tree is dying. I would prefer an "enlightenment" that advances and clarifies the views of humanity through science and reason rather than a fundementalist dogma that dominates its people rather than sets them free. |
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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
Posted: 26 June 2006 at 4:25pm | ||||||||||
You have made some errneous assumptions. 1) So if the Revelation to Moses came centuries after Noah, then the revelation to Moses is false because it was not the same as that to Noah, and soe not follow the philosophical specualtion of how Gd must work. 2) Perhaps we should compare your "philisophical assumptions" with your own theology. -Gd gives a series of commands to Moses -Christians have these commands in their bible, and the one (Jesus) they follow also followed them. -Christianity is not given commands. They have now moved beyond Gd's law, and without any guidance, they have the "option" to create their own laws, 99% of the time is compeltely out of "convenience". This not an evolved progresion, this is called "pie in the sky" theology based upon the speculation of man.
So too bad for Moses, and Noah, and Jesus huh? A crack head ont he street gets a free ride with Gd but not Moses. Now thats certainly rational! So according to you, a religous manual should not read at all, excapet for a few ambiguous ideas, we can just be free to do whatever the heck we want! Nice. Sign me up!
Actually, rocket science is a lot easier than using the texts that your church has based its foundations on. Your texts support such a wide range of views about Jesus and his very nature. Not like rockte science? You are correct. Rocket science is way easier. This is due to the lack of any solid substance concerning what Jesus actually said and believed. Your faith is defined by men who never actually new him.
I have always had a difficult time figuring out how people were duped into following "pie in the sky" theology that has no bases in the Hebrew Scriptures. Regression: Moses taught a law, followed the law, and told people they were able to follow it. Paul said the law was not important. The churc said we are incapable of following the law. Moses used the mitzvah to walk close to Gd. Paul taught that we only need to feel Gd. All of the prophets brought men close to Gd's law. Paul took men away from it. Moses taught to worship Gd alone, with any notion of a triune Gd. Paul set the foundations for one of the most wicked innovations ever: A Gd with three aspects. Moses brought forth truth. Paul distorted and even lied about the Hebrew Scriptures.
Actually, Christians inserted portions such as the adulteress woman. It is an added addition. Christian were left with nearly no guidance from Jesus, so they simply interpolated their own ideas and forged them into their own books. So the ideas that Jesus abolished the laws are based upon a fabrication, and trying to read personal conjecture into ambiguous verses. The Ebionites, Christians who rejected Paul, and thought of him as a lunatic, still followed the law, completely. How much of the commands thats houdl be followed was uncertain to your own eraly founders, who debated this. It required so much debate because of the lack of supporting evidence from Jesus.
The Prophet addressed the core messages from the time of Jesus and beyond. What you mean is that he did not address what the church thought.
Irrelevant. The charge is this: You claim Jesus is Gd. An extraodinary claim. So I look for extraordinary evidence from yoru text. And it doeas not give the evidence required for the claim. Whether or not I believe it or not, is not relevant.
You , like your church fathers, are forcing a single interpretation. Keep in mind that your complaint of a religion that has a "how to book", also carries with it "explicit" statements that define the faith, and defined what Gd wants you to do. Your book is full of implicit statements, and 99% of your proof texts are based upon implicit statements. The reason the church relies so heaviy on "implicit" statements is the very nature of such statements. This is from a reputable on line dictionary: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va =explicit Explicit 1 a : fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity : leaving no question as to meaning or intent <explicit instructions> b : open in the depiction of nudity or sexuality <explicit books and films> This is in contrast to "implicit". 1 a : capable of being understood from something else though unexpressed : IMPLIED <an implicit assumption> b : involved in the nature or essence of something though not revealed, expressed, or developed Your faith relies too heavily on implicit statments, and this alone should be unsettling to anyone searching for the truth of Gd. This goes to the heart of the complaint that my brothers and sisters are bringing up. Your beliefs do not rest on anything "explicit". "Explicitness" is at the heart of Islam and to a lesser degree in Judaism. In fact, visiting Christians in Mecca once debated with the Prophet (saw) and in the debate they tried to argue from implicit statements in the Quran. The Problem for the Christian delegation was that the implicit are definded by the many explicit.
Thats a good question you should meditate on. Your high level of use and dependency on "implicit" statements should cause you to deeply think and ask this very question.
So chaos and ambiguity is the answer? Your faith has been redefining itself for 2000 years, with no hope of end in sight, because your faith lacks any texts that have any real information to define your way of life and who Gd is. Christian civilization has not been proof of "brilliance" that stands out. For the first 1000 years, one could find nothing but ignorance, disease, illiteracy, corruption amongst the clergy, and a completely backward society. Christendom took over a 1000 years to start forming any real civilization, and then by the age of enlightenment, western thinkers began a series of arguments that deflated church theology setting the course for darwinism and athiesm. In effect, the church put all of its eggs in the aristotilean basket, and when CHristendom did achieve learning, it came back to bight them and discredit their theology. |
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
Posted: 25 June 2006 at 11:55am | ||||||||||
It would depend on who is doing the comparing. If it is God who states: "I am One", and "by myself", then is it not what it seems? |
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
Posted: 25 June 2006 at 11:49am | ||||||||||
DavidC, couldn't have posted it better myself. Thanks |
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
Posted: 25 June 2006 at 9:51am | ||||||||||
Al-Ikhlas (The Purity)
112:1 SAY: "He is the One God: 112:2 "God the Eternal, the Uncaused Cause of All Being. [112:3 "He begets not, and neither is He begotten; 112:4 "and there is nothing that could be compared with Him. |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Aquinian
Guest Group Joined: 09 June 2006 Status: Offline Points: 61 |
Posted: 25 June 2006 at 8:19am | ||||||||||
Although I agree with the conclusion, I don't think the first premise is valid. The Bible tells us that we come in the image and likeness of God. In that respect, one could say that we are compared, in a sense, to God. Also I think the second premise might have to more accurately define a singular individual. God's creation is numerous and there are many examples of things that are not necessarily singular individuals, water being one. |
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
Posted: 25 June 2006 at 4:13am | ||||||||||
Try this syllogism, Mishmish:
A) God cannot be compared to his creations. B) God's creations are singular individuals. therefore, C) God cannot be compared to a singular individual. |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
Posted: 24 June 2006 at 8:14pm | ||||||||||
"It's just as easy to believe in three persons in one God as it is to believe in one person in one God" Apparently it is for many. But, the clear statement from God in Isaiah is that there is One. "I am the first, I am the last" "I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself" If Jesus were with God in heaven before the creation of the earth, then why does God adamantly state that He alone, "by myself" created all? 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Jesus did not state he was God. This is written in none of the Gospels. God did not claim a trinity, this too was not written in any of the Gospels. Where then did this doctrine originate? |
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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