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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 10:17am

In the name of God, the merciful and the compassionate

My apologies for my delay in this subject but I will not delaye no more so let address some of the responses here.

(switching font)

Patty you said in Bold:

Hi Israfil....I'll be happy to "take a crack at it"

The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

 

Patty although you eloquently explained this, this does not explained how Mary was without sin. According to some Catholic theologians especially Thomas Aquinas, the soul while still in the Empyrean is without sin, since it is in the presence of the Creator and when it comes to its earthly form and being formed in the womb of the mother who is of sin the child inherits it through blood I assume (or by its transition in the physical plane?).

Since Mary historically was born in the same process like we all are, how did God make her exempt from the universal law of inherited sin?

Brother David said:

Israfil, you must consider the power of the Holy Spirit to sanctify and forgive.  Mary was not born without sin, but she was sanctified and free from sin at the immaculate conception.

Her sister, Elizabeth, was similarly sanctified at merely believing the miracle in Luke 1:41

(Changing color fonts to dinstinguish my response from brother DavidC)

Brother David it appears that your answer differs from the previous where Patty states that Mary was exempt from the universal law. According to some Christians whom I've discussed with even with using Biblical verses it basically boiled down to "Mary was just born without sin, thus having the ability to conceive a sinless Christ."

My question here is seeing how Mary was born in the same process and I assume some Christians believe that the blood carries the sin of Adam and Eve and since Mary being formed from a cell, fetus and to a fully formed baby how in that time of being formed did she not inherit the sin of her father and mother and their ancestors and so on? Unless it is not explained in the Bible of course I understand there cannot be an answer here. But brother David as you have clearly mentioned that Mary was not born sinless but was sanctified through conceiving Jesus if I am right....

Angela used several opinions here using Eastern Orthodoxy:

I decided to take a crack at this one using Eastern Orthodoxy.  I went to the OCA and the OCF websites and retrieved some things that would help you understand the other side of the coin from a Mainstream Christian standpoint.  I still hold many of these beliefs.

ORIGINAL SIN

QUESTION:

I would like to know what is the orthodox canon regarding the "original sin." The following confuse me:

Father Michael Azkoul states that God punished man only once for the original sin by introducing death, and the original sin wasn't transferred to the next generations.

He says (on the OCF website): "The Church does not accept the idea that the Mother of God was born with the (inherited) guilt of Adam; no one is ..."

On the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Toronto's page there is a totally different statement:
"Worst of all, original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam andEve's."

(Changing font to distinguish from Angela's post)

It appears that from what was stated one believes sin is inherited and the other belives that the recompensationm for sin is death of all humans thus there is no inheriting sin. Following the listed reference you baiscally state that the Holy Spirit redeemed Mary, and you acknowledge according to your reference that she had sinned but was redeemed and sanctified to prepare her body for the conception of Christ. I understand your explanation here.

My further question (which was brought up by a statement here) is since sin cannot be scientifically proven to be in the blood and/physical compartments of the human body how is sin inherited? We surely cannot say death because if only humans sinned why do animals or any living creature suffer for what a human does for that matter? Surely animales suffer death the same as we do. Also, I present the theory that isn't it possible that God could create Jesus in the womb of a sinner? Perhaps one can still be a virgin and in the case of Christian theology still have the inherited Sin?


 

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DavidC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 10:54am
I see why you dislike scholars, Israfil

Anyway, unlike Patty, my answer came from mainstream Roman Catholic dogma. 

If you read Aquinas or Abelard, the two seminal masters of Christian scholasticism, they never have one answer.  Their exegesis is typically two lists - one of arguments for, and one of arguments against.

Sometimes the idea isn't to actually answer the question at all - it's a spiritual meditation to just think about it.
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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 11:00am

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

My further question (which was brought up by a statement here) is since sin cannot be scientifically proven to be in the blood and/physical compartments of the human body how is sin inherited? We surely cannot say death because if only humans sinned why do animals or any living creature suffer for what a human does for that matter? Surely animales suffer death the same as we do.

Actually, the debate between animals and men is a different subject.  Animals are intended for different purposes.  There is debate on the "immortal" soul of an animal.  However, since Animals are intended as a food source or a keeper of balance, their mortality was needed.  Man on the other hand is intended for immortality.  Through death and resurrection, we will be unending.....whether in heaven or hell.

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Also, I present the theory that isn't it possible that God could create Jesus in the womb of a sinner?

In fact, she was born like every other human being. The Holy Spirit prepared the Virgin Mary for her role as the Mother of God. She was filled with the Uncreated Energy of the Holy Spirit of God in order that she might be a worthy vessel for the birth of Christ. Nevertheless, several of the Fathers observed that before the Resurrection of her Son, she had sinned. St. John Chrysostom mentions the Wedding at Cana where she presumed to instruct Him (John 2:3-4). Here was proof of her mortality.

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schwester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schwester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:


Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Poor Israfil had to wait 3 days for any reply.


Yes, poor Israfil indeed.� Not only pregnant and swollen with doubt but also unable to utilize the meditation of the Sacred Heart of Mary to assuage his suffering.



first, why poor? poor is not that who doesn't know, but that who doesn't try to know. i find it insulting. if so, then i should say that it doesn't suit any of religious people to talk such way .

and here is my thoughts on the topic of just SIN:
to me a sin is a deed which harms others or you in any way in the age when he/she can differ what harms and what doesn't harm others or you. and any newly born child is sinless because he/she cannot harm anyone in any way. insulting harms too, i should say.

Edited by schwester
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 1:54pm

Well the immortality of the human soul would be an interesting discussion would it? From Angela' statement it appears that Mary was born like anyone else then....

DavidC...I'm glad you understand where I'm coming from when it comes to men who claim to be scholars.

Here is my idea of sin:

Sin to me is the "religious/spiritual term of transgression from the laws of God" I believe that the sins of the father cannot be inherited by the son. A father's transgression which is an individual act(s) is such that only the father is the inheritor of that sin. Since sin is intangible its guilt cannot be transmitted, inherited, or passed on as a guilt of some sort to other generations.



Edited by Israfil
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DavidC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 4:45pm
Schwester - Angel, Israfil and I have developed a mutually respectful relationship here for several years and we enjoy each other's company.  I do tease my friends from time to time, and try to keep the smiley's active to point that out to others who may not be in on the joke.
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Angel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2006 at 5:31am

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Schwester - Angel, Israfil and I have developed a mutually respectful relationship here for several years and we enjoy each other's company.  I do tease my friends from time to time, and try to keep the smiley's active to point that out to others who may not be in on the joke.

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2006 at 8:22am
Originally posted by schwester schwester wrote:

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:


Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Poor Israfil had to wait 3 days for any reply.


Yes, poor Israfil indeed.  Not only pregnant and swollen with doubt but also unable to utilize the meditation of the Sacred Heart of Mary to assuage his suffering.



first, why poor? poor is not that who doesn't know, but that who doesn't try to know. i find it insulting. if so, then i should say that it doesn't suit any of religious people to talk such way .

and here is my thoughts on the topic of just SIN:
to me a sin is a deed which harms others or you in any way in the age when he/she can differ what harms and what doesn't harm others or you. and any newly born child is sinless because he/she cannot harm anyone in any way. insulting harms too, i should say.

Schwester,

Please calm yourself.  Some of those here have known each other for years and are good friends.  David was just kidding with brother Israfil, whom I'm sure laughed when he saw the post.  DavidC is actually one of the few people here who's respectful to almost everyones beliefs no matter who they are.

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