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Angela 
Senior Member 
Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
 Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:02am |
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AbRah, when quoting, use the whole scripture.... Abominable Practices9"When you come into the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,[e] anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer, 12for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you. 13You shall be blameless before the LORD your God, 14for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do this. It depends on what he considered the "door of his house" maybe it was the gate to the wall around his house....he could have expected a goat to come out or the family dog...maybe a chicken????? Who knows what his household was like???? But to answer your question..... Genesis 22Abraham Tested 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" 2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac (Ishmael?), whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." 3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. Why would this be a test of obedience if God did not hold men to obey him and keep their covenants with him??? |
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Angela
Senior Member
Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:06am |
No, they castrated themselves to prevent SIN? Have you heard of chemical castration? Its a new attempt to keep men who are repeat sex offenders from continuing to commit crimes. They are given injections to keep them from having sexual urges. There are also a number of these men who have undergone voluntary castration to prevent reoffending. These men wanted to ensure they did not sin by committing fornication. So they castrated themselves. Perhaps they felt they were so weak as they would never be able to control themselves otherwise? Perhaps they were homosexual in desire and were afraid they would act on the impulses or they had some other thing they feared. But again, this is not a directive or suggestion but a statement that there are those that have done this thing. |
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AbRah2006
Guest Group 
Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 354 |
Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:27am |
No, they castrated themselves to prevent SIN? Have you heard of chemical castration? Its a new attempt to keep men who are repeat sex offenders from continuing to commit crimes. They are given injections to keep them from having sexual urges. There are also a number of these men who have undergone voluntary castration to prevent reoffending. These men wanted to ensure they did not sin by committing fornication. So they castrated themselves. Perhaps they felt they were so weak as they would never be able to control themselves otherwise? Perhaps they were homosexual in desire and were afraid they would act on the impulses or they had some other thing they feared. But again, this is not a directive or suggestion but a statement that there are those that have done this thing. ------------------------------------------------------------ ---- If you believe that if you castrate yourselves you can go to heaven then you are wrong.Being an eunuch you can still commit sins other than illicit sex such as lie, cheat, murder etc. I as a Muslim need not to castrate myself because I can control my sexual urges. I never commit any illicit sex because I obey Allah and His messenger Muhammad. I believe that if I obey Allah and His messenger I will go to heaven. Quran
03.057 "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."
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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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AbRah2006
Guest Group
Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 354 |
Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:34am |
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Angela's statement:
Genesis 22Abraham Tested 1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" 2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac (Ishmael?), whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." 3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. Why would this be a test of obedience if God did not hold men to obey him and keep their covenants with him??? ------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Question: What are your proofs to say that it was Isaac who was about to be sacrificed when God stopped his father? |
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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Angela
Senior Member
Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:38am |
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That's not what I said. I said they must have believed they could not control themselves. My Church actually teaches that you should not alter your body. You shouldn't get tattoos, extreme piercings, cosmetic surgery.....but we are talking about some men that HAD done it. What part of that don't you understand? Is there some language barrier???? Commandments (Fard, Halal.....) Events....history, what was done, not necessarily correct.... These are two different things. This passage is not talking about a commandment, just an phenomenon that was happening.
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Angela
Senior Member
Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:42am |
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None, the Hebrew Torah and Old Testament say it was Isaac. The Quran says it was Ishmael. To mean it matters little which son it was, the more important part is the lesson in obedience and piety of Abraham. Correct? Bismark wrote a very long article on arguing why it was Ishmael and not Isaac. I cannot see where it would make much difference in the long run. Both are sons of Abraham whom he loved very much and both were blessed of God. The point was to answer your question about sacrificing sons and daughters. If you look at my response I added in this... (Ishmael?) out of respect for the varience between Jewish/Christian tradition and Islamic tradition. However, since I was quoting Genesis, it says Isaac. I could have just as easily used a few ayats from the Quran to emphasize the point. |
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AbRah2006
Guest Group
Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 354 |
Posted: 25 May 2006 at 11:50am |
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[QUOTE=Angela]
That's not what I said. I said they must have believed they could not control themselves. My Church actually teaches that you should not alter your body. You shouldn't get tattoos, extreme piercings, cosmetic surgery.....but we are talking about some men that HAD done it. What part of that don't you understand? Is there some language barrier???? Commandments (Fard, Halal.....) Events....history, what was done, not necessarily correct.... These are two different things. This passage is not talking about a commandment, just an phenomenon that was happening. ----------------------------------------------------------- But Matthew 19:12 is a part of the NT and Matthew 19:12 says that there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.....What does this mean? It means that they castrated themselves so that they can go to heaven! What will happen if everyman castrate himself? All mankind will vanish after 150 years! |
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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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AbRah2006
Guest Group
Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 354 |
Posted: 25 May 2006 at 12:06pm |
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Quran 37:101 "So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son."
037.102 Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if God so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
037.103 So when they had both submitted their wills (to God), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
037.104 We called out to him "O Abraham!
037.105 "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
037.106 For this was obviously a trial-
037.107 And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
037.108 And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
037.109 "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
037.110 Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
037.111 For he was one of our believing Servants. Let us read The Opinion Of Ibn Kath�r:
The great Qur'�nic commentator Ibn Kath�r said that according to the Bible, the sacrificed is said to be Abraham's(P) only son (or his firstborn in some versions), which cannot fit Isaac(P); according to the Qur'�n, the good news of Isaac(P) said that he would have a progeny and consequently God cannot order Abraham(P) to sacrifice Isaac(P) before the promise is fulfilled. Again, according to the Qur'�n, the sacrificed cannot be Isaac. The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:
The testimony of the former Jew as mentioned had�th literature as quoted in the Encyclopaedia Judaica reads:
The Oxford Companion To The Bible echoes the same position as the Encyclopaedia Judaica.
It is quite clear from the statement of Judeo-Christian scholars what the Muslim position is about the person who was sacrificed by Abraham(P). Edited by AbRah2006 |
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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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AbRah2006 wrote: