Jesus is God (or not)

George,

From you: "The Jews understand the concept but don't believe it happened with Jesus, but at least they understand the concept."

No! George, The Jews don't believe at all in the concept. Trinity or Jesus being a God is not acceptable to Jews.

Have you read this before. I post below courtesy askmoses.com and hope you will pay attention to the views of Jews. Here it is:

Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus

Contents

<Name@Withheld> wrote

Dear Rabbi,

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus? Doesn't it say in the Psalms, "They pierced my hands and feet"? Doesn't Isaiah say, "Behold a virgin shall give birth"?

JESUS - NOT THE MESSIAH

1. Scriptural References

   In order to understand anything in the Torah one must look at the original Hebrew. You will see that the Christians distorted, changed and misinterpreted many of the Hebrew words in order to fit things into their beliefs. The two places that you mentioned are good examples. In Psalm 22:17 the Hebrew states "hikifuni ca'ari yaday veraglay" which means "they bound me (hikifuni) like a lion (ca-like ari-lion), my hands (yaday) and my feet (ve-and raglay-my feet). The Christians translate this as "they pierced my hands and feet". Nowhere in the entire Torah, Prophets and Writings do the words ca'ari or hikifuny mean anything remotely resembling "pierce".

   In Isaiah 7:14 the Hebrew states "hinei ha'almah harah veyoledet ben" "behold (hineih) the young woman (ha - the almah- young woman) is pregnant (harah) and shall give birth (ve-and yoledet-shall give birth) to a son (ben)". The Christians translate this as "behold a virgin shall give birth." They have made two mistakes (probably deliberate) in the one verse. They mistranslate "ha" as "a" instead of "the". They mistranslate "almah" as "virgin", when in fact the Hebrew word for virgin is "betulah". Aside from the fact that if you read the context of that prediction you will see clearly that it is predicting an event that was supposed to happen and be seen by king Achaz who lived 700 years before Jesus!

2. Genealogy

   He was not descended from the House of David. According to Jewish law, tribal identification comes from the father's side, being Jewish, from the mother's side. According to Matthew 1, Joseph was descended from David (Although there are many contradictions between his genealogy there and that listed in Luke, however according to the same text, Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary, therefore Jesus was not related to Joseph, and not a descendant of King David.

   Three answers to this problem are given in classic Christian sources:

   1. The genealogy is that of Mary - This is inadequate, since if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, and according to Jewish tradition he must be descended on his father's side, Mary's genealogy is irrelevant.

   2. He was adopted by Joseph -According to Jewish law, adoption does not change the status of the child. If an Israelite is adopted by a Cohen, (A descendant of Aaron the High Priest), the child does not become a Cohen, likewise if a descendant of David, adopts someone who is not, he does not become of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David.

   3. It doesn't matter, he was a spiritual inheritor of King David - If it doesn't matter, why do Christian scriptures spend time establishing his genealogical pedigree? And if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, then according to Jewish tradition it does matter!

3. Messianic Predictions

   The main predictions concerning the Messiah are that he will bring peace to the world, gather the Jewish people from their exile to the land of Israel and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. After Jesus' appearance, the Temple was destroyed, the Jews were exiled all over the world and we have not even had one day of peace in the past 2,000 years. (Many of the wars in fact were started and fought by followers of Jesus) These events are enough to show that he was not the messiah.

   The main Christian responses to these objections are:

   1. The Second Coming - First of all, we find this to be a contrived answer, since there is no mention of a second coming in the Jewish Bible. Second, why couldn't G-d accomplish His goals the first time round. Most importantly, the second coming idea is just an attempt at answering an obvious question but it certainly does not constitute proof of messianic claims.

   2. There is peace within his followers hearts - That is wonderful for them, but does that help the victims of the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Hundred Years War, the First World War, the Second World War etc. In each of the events that I mentioned most if not all the combatants, the violent oppressors and torturers where people who claimed to be followers of Jesus. And is peace in the heart a fulfillment of "swords into plowshares etc."

4. Messiah's Qualifications

   Messiah is a prophet, a scholar and a pious king. Jesus made a prediction that "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15) That was 2000 years ago, has the kingdom of God come? Do you call the holocaust, Pol Pot and Stalin a world in which the kingdom of God has come? Jesus was not a great scholar - one of the requirements of the Messiah. Was Jesus a king? He was not anointed as king by a prophet (as was the rule in Jewish kings), he was not appointed by any judicial body as a leader and he did not rule over the Jewish people nor was he accepted by them. He was arrested, tortured and killed by the Romans like a common criminal. He had no army or government. The answer to my question is an obvious, "no."

   JESUS - NOT A DEITY

   1. The Trinity

      The Christian idea of a trinity contradicts the most basic tenet of Judaism - that G-d is One. Jews have declared their belief in a single unified G-d twice daily ever since the giving of the Torah at Sinai - almost two thousand years before Christianity.

      The trinity suggests a three part deity: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

      In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry; one of the three cardinal sins for which a person should rather give up his life than transgress. The idea of the trinity is absolutely incompatible with Judaism.

   2. Physical Manifestation

      Christianity believes that G-d came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

      The Torah states that G-d cannot not take any form.:

      "You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-20)

      "You did not see any form on the day G-d spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of fire" (Deuteronomy 4:15)

      As little as we may know about G-d's nature, Judaism has always believed that G-d is Incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. G-d is Eternal, He is Infinite; above time and beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die.

   CHANGES TO THE LAW

   Christianity denies the eternal relevance of Torah Law, basing the concept of the New Testament on a mistranslation of a verse in Jeremia.

   In Jeremia 31:30 the Hebrew states: "Henei yamim baim Neum Hashem VeCharati Brit Chadash" They translate: "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new Testament with the house of Israel "

   "Brit" does not mean Testament. Throughout Scripture "Brit" means covenant. See for example Genesis 17:2, 15:18 Exodus 24:8, Leviticus 26:42, Numbers 25:12.

   It is a fundamental principle of Judaism that the Torah received at Sinai will never be changed nor become obsolete. This concept is mentioned in the Torah no less than 24 times, with the words:

   "This is an eternal law for all generations"

   (Exodus 12:14, 12:17, 12:43, 27:21, 28:43, Leviticus 3:17, 7:36, 10:9, 16:29, 16:31, 16:34, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:31, 23:41, 24:3, Numbers 10:8, 15:15, 19:10, 19:21, 18:23, 35:29, Deuteronomy29:28)

   It is absurd to accept the Divine origin of the Torah yet deny it's eternal relevance. Judaism is a religion of action; it has always taught that through performance of the commandments one declares the belief of the heart. To dispense with the legal body of the Torah and reduce it to a book of morals would cut it down to less than half it's size. Can this really be the meaning of those words an eternal law for all generations?

   Recommended Reading

   For a lengthier discussion on this subject I suggest the books, "The Real Messiah," by Aryeh Kaplan, "Faith Strengthened" by Isaac Troki, "You Take Jesus, I'll Take God"and "Their Hollow Inheritance" by Michoel Drazin. (available at Jewish bookstores everywhere)

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Angel,

Maybe the following information will help you understand about the Word of God becoming flesh in Jesus.  I hope so.

The Self-Understanding of Jesus (Gospel of John)

Source:  http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin03c.html

Passages in John, in which Jesus is the speaker, relating to His deity:

Jn 3.13: No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven -- the Son of Man.--Notice: a statement of pre-existence (in heaven), and uniqueness in terms of having 'gone into heaven'. ("has ever gone" is in the perfect tense, and probably denotes some sense like "no one has ever taken up permanent dwelling in heaven").

Jn 3.15: that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.--This is just the first of SCORES of verses that demonstrate that Jesus was aware that He was BOTH appropriate as the object of religious trust AND sufficient to produce salvation!

(The deity-rich text of 3.16-21 is uncertain as to who its speaker is--Jesus or John. I will treat it under 'responses of His followers' for the sake of caution.)

Jn 4.10: Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."--Notice: Jesus is able to give 'living water' (elsewhere identified as the Holy Spirit--7.37-39).

Jn 4.25-26: The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26 Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."--Notice: explicit claim to be the Messiah.

Jn 5.17ff: Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.--Notice several things about this important passage: (1) Jesus claim to be the Son is understood by the audience as blasphemy--a claim to deity!; (2) Jesus response is NOT to say 'hey, but I am using sonship DIFFERENTLY than that-i am NOT claiming to be God'--instead He simply continues describing the incredible unity between Himself and the Father (the Father's works are the Son's works, the Son knows EVERYTHING the Father does, Son gives life JUST LIKE THE FATHER DOES, Father entrusts ALL judgment to the Son, the Son is supposed to be honored 'just as' the Father is honored(!), dishonoring the Son is tantamount to dishonoring the Father). These are INCREDIBLY EXORBITANT claims (for a 'mere creature'!). The Father and Son are co-extensive in work and honor.

Jn 5.39: You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,--Another clear claim to be the OT messiah.

Jn 5.40: yet you refuse to come to me to have life. --Notice: Jesus claims here to be the 'giver of life'! That he has authority/power to grant life.

Jn 6.33: For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."--Jesus claims here to have 'come down from heaven'. A very clear pre-existence reference, involving heaven.

Jn 6.38: For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.--Notice: another VERY clear reference to Jesus' pre-existence in heaven.

Jn 6.46: No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.--This is an unusually strong statement. No one has seen the invisible Father, except the Son who is 'from God'. A very strong claim to uniqueness, exclusivity, and intimacy with the Father.

Jn 6.62: What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!--Another strong statement of exalted pre-existence.

Jn 7.28-29: Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, "Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, 29 but I know him because I am from him and he sent me."--Notice: this statement again highlights the uniqueness of Jesus relationship with the Father--HE ALONE knows the Father, because He is FROM HIM.

Jn 8.23: But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.--Another strong statement of Jesus pre-existence, heavenly source, and mission from heaven. He is not just another religious leader 'from below'!

Jn 8.29: The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."--Could a mere man "ALWAYS do what pleases the Father?!"

Jn 8.36: So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.--The Son dispenses freedom!

Jn 8.38: I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence,--Notice: Jesus actually claims to have SEEN the Father, not just to have HEARD the Father.

Jn 8.42: Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.--Again, clear statement of pre-existence with God, and mission to earth on the Father's request.

Jn 8.46:Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?--Would a normal human being, with ethical sensibilities and standards as high as Jesus, EVER implicitly claim to be sinless?!

Jn 8.50 with 8.54b: I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge and My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.--Notice, the Father (who uttered Is 42.8--"I will NOT give my glory to another") is here seeking to glorify Jesus the Son!

Jn 8.58-59: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him--Notice: This statement actually goes beyond pre-existence--it is an explicit claim to be YHWH. The "I am" phrase is how the OT LXX translators render the Hebrew "I AM" of Ex 3.14. This "I am" statement (which also occurs in vv. 24, 28 of this chapter!) of Jesus is immediately understood by the natives, who pick up stones to execute the proper sentence for blasphemy (Lev 24.16).

Jn 9.35-38: Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 "Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him." 37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." 38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshipped him.--Notice: In this passage Jesus affirms himself as BOTH a legitimate object of religious faith AND as a legitimate object of WORSHIP! (No rebuke is given to the man at all for worshipping Jesus--even in the presence of the Pharisees!)

Jn 10.17ff: The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life -- only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.--This incredible passage has Jesus affirming that He can 'raise Himself from the dead'! Could a mere creature have the ability to do that?!

Jn 10.30-39: I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came -- and the Scripture cannot be broken -- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand th at the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.This passage is so very clear as to the intent and content of Jesus' claims--they were explicitly claims to being God! His affirmation of unity (30) is understood immediately as being a claim to deity (33). Jesus defends his affirmation with a technical argument in Rabbinic style ("qal wahomer": BEAP:69). The general argument type is like this: "If it is okay to use the term X in a limited sense on Y, then it is certainly okay to use it in an expanded sense on a Z that is so much more than Y". In this passage, He thus argues that if it was okay in the psalms to call the Israelite leaders 'elohim' once, then it was CERTAINLY appropriate to call the pre-existent One, special of the Father, perfect image of the Father's character and actions, "GOD". And, once again, they understand that claim to REAL deity and try to seize him! His claims were quite clear in those days--He was claiming to be fully GOD.

Jn 11.4: When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it."--Notice, this event couples "Gods glory" with the "glorification of God's SON"! The two are somehow identical.

Jn 13.32: If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself--Note: God the Father will glorify God the Son.

Jn 14.9: Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.--These are statements of extreme unity--they boggle the mind in the metaphysics, of course, but their import as to the deity of Jesus and the unity with the Father are quite clear.

Jn 14.28: If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.--Although this statement seems obvious to us on the surface, a moments reflection will surface just how preposterous it is--IF JESUS is merely a human! So Bickersteth: "How could a mere man, without absurd presumption, solemnly announce that God the Father was greater than he?"!

Jn 15.5: "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.--Note: this is another passage that makes NO sense without a divine Jesus. How could the phrase 'apart from me you can do nothing' make any sense--IF Jesus were not God--omnipotent, omnipresent deity?

Jn 15.9: "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you.--Jesus loves AS THE FATHER loves!--a conjunction of comparison ("kathos"--BAG s.v.).

Jn 15.23: He who hates me hates my Father as well.--This is another passage that is preposterous if Jesus is not 'identical' in both character and action with God the Father!

Jn 15.26: "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.--Jesus will SEND the Holy Spirit, which will testify about Jesus. This ONLY makes sense if Jesus is on a parity with the Father and the Spirit.

Jn 16.7: But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.--Note: Jesus will SEND the Spirit, but the Spirit will not come to earth UNLESS Jesus leaves. The Spirit of God 'dependent on' the acts of a 'mere creature'?!

Jn 16.28: I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."--A clear statement of the pre-existent, heavenly-origin of Jesus.

Jn 17.2: For you granted him authority over all people--He has authority over EVERYONE.

Jn 17.5: And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.--Before the world began, the Son had glory in the presence of the Father! An exalted claim above all claims!

Jn 17.10: All I have is yours, and all you have is mine.--Unless the Son is truly God, this statement is utterly ridiculous! "All that God has" vs. "all that a creature has"--NOT a fair swap!

Jn 20.17: Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"--This is one of the strangest passages in scripture, with an odd construction. Why does Jesus differentiate between HIS sonship and the sonship of His followers? Probably since His Sonship is totally unique. Craig (RF:245) points out "And notice that although Jesus may have taught his disciples to pray to God as 'Abba,' he never joined them in praying 'Our Father...' On the contrary, he always referred to God as 'My Father'. This distinction leads to an odd circumlocution like John 20.12...Jesus prayer life thus shows that he thought of himself as God's Son in a unique sense that set him apart from the rest of the disciples."

Summary: The claims of Jesus in the Gospel of John:

1.      To be a permanent dweller in heaven

2.      To have come to earth from heaven

3.      To have a unique relationship with the Father (in many ways)

4.      To be appropriate as on object of religious faith

5.      To be a 'giver' of the Holy Spirit

6.      To be the promised Messiah

7.      To be the Son of God (considered blasphemous)

8.      To be equal with God (considered blasphemous)

9.      To know everything the Father does

10.  To give 'life'

11.  To have been entrusted with ALL JUDGMENT from the Father(!)

12.  To be worthy of honor LIKE THE FATHER

13.  To have been sent from the Father

14.  To be the ONLY one who has seen the invisible Father

15.  To know the Father uniquely

16.  To always please the Father with His life

17.  To give 'freedom'

18.  To be blameless in regards to sin

19.  To be the object of glorification by the Father

20.  To be able to use the divine Name YHWH as a personal identification(considered blasphemous)

21.  To be an appropriate object of worship

22.  To be able to raise Himself from the dead(!)

23.  To be one with the Father (considered blasphemous)

24.  To be an appropriate object of the word "GOD"

25.  To be so different from created reality that the sentence 'the Father is greater than I' was not ludicrous!

26.  To be able to exert power throughout the world simultaneously

27.  To be absolutely necessary to the success of his human followers

28.  To be so 'one' with the Father that ANY response to one of them, was "AUTOMATICALLY" a response to the other as well

29.  To be equal partners with the Father and the Spirit, and to 'send' the Spirit

30.  To have authority over EVERYONE

31.  To have had glory in the presence of the Father before the world began

32.  To "co-own" the universe with the Father(!)

33.  To have a unique Sonship with the Father

Conclusion: The Gospel of John, like the synoptic gospels, shows us that Jesus understood Himself to be divine, to have an exclusive relationship with the Father, to have been the promised Messiah, to have all authority in heaven and earth, to be related in parity-status with the Spirit and Father, and to be the central issue in the personal destinies of people.

But the words of Jesus in John also develop some themes a bit further. Jesus (in John) draws considerably more attention to His glorious and unique pre-creation state in heaven, with the Father. The complex relationships between the Father and Son (and Spirit) are focused on. And the mutuality of their work in the drama of redemption is recorded faithfully.

If it is fair to say that the Synoptics teach the deity of the Son, then it is probably equally accurate to say that the Gospel of John emphasizes the divine unity of the Father and Son. 

For you:

Servetus wrote: �Jesus is God (or not)� I think, according to the Catholic, or what is the same thing, �universal� (Trinitarian) credo, it is most accurate to say that Jesus is �God, the Son.� Servetus

Interesting and in addition to that Fred mentions another Catholic belief that Mary is the "mother of God." I guess believing in God doesn't have to make sense.