Jesus is God (or not) |
Post Reply | Page 123 153> |
Author | ||
Angel
Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Status: Offline Points: 6641 |
Topic: Jesus is God (or not) Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:35am |
|
To those Christians who keep saying that Jesus is God, and that the Catholic's believe this, can you please bring some evidence from scriptures. Isn't it the Trinitarians that believe Jesus is God, not all christians and that the Nicene creed came from them?. All my life I have known that Catholic don't believe that Jesus is God, despite the "In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit". Even in the bible Jesus doesn't not claim to be God. God and Jesus are separate beings, otherwise we wouldn't be having Son of God or God's only begotten son nor would we have Jesus speaking to God. I know in the book that there is god and then there is God, there is a difference between the two. In some parts Jesus says he is god just like the rest of us, BUT it is in no way that its meant to be "God" the Almighty Father. When you put the proper meaning/use of god/God in the scriptures then you get a slightly different meaning and understanding. Some peope do miss some vital information |
||
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
|
||
Angel
Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Status: Offline Points: 6641 |
Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:36am | |
100 verses that show God and Jesus to be different: Matthew 27:46 Mark Mark Mark Mark Luke 2:52 Luke 6:12 Luke 18:19 John 3:2 John 8:42 John 8:54 John 9:3 John 13:31 John 14:1* John 17:3 John 20:17 Acts Acts Acts Acts Acts Acts Acts Acts Acts Acts Acts Romans 1:7 Romans 1:8 Romans 2:16 Romans 3:22 Romans 4:24 Romans 5:1 Romans 5:11 Romans 5:15 Romans 5:17 Romans 6:23 Romans 7:25 Romans 8:34 Romans 10:9 Romans 15:5 Romans 15:6 Romans 16:27 1 Corinthians 1:3 1 Corinthians 1:9 1 Corinthians 1:30 1 Corinthians 8:6 1 Corinthians 15:57 2 Corinthians 1:2 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 2 Corinthians 13:14 Galatians 1:1 Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 1:2 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 2:6 Ephesians 6:23 Philippians 1:2 Philippians 2:11 Colossians 1:3* Colossians 3:17 1 Thessalonians 1:1 1 Thessalonians 1:3 1 Thessalonians 3:11 1 Thessalonians 3:13 1 Thessalonians 4:14 1 Thessalonians 5:9 2 Thessalonians 1:1 2 Thessalonians 1:2 2 Thessalonians 1:12 2 Thessalonians 2:16 1 Timothy 1:1 1 Timothy 1:2 1 Timothy 2:5 1 Timothy 5:21 1 Timothy 6:3 2 Timothy 1:1 2 Timothy 1:2 2 Timothy 4:1 Titus 1:4 Titus 2:13 Philemon 1:3 Hebrews 13:20 James 1:1 1 Peter 1:2 1 Peter 2:5 2 Peter 1:1 2 Peter 1:2 1 John 5:1* 1 John 5:20 2 John 1:3 Jude 1:1 Jude 1:4 Jude 1:21 Jude 1:25 Revelation 1:1 Revelation 1:2 Revelation 14:12 |
||
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
|
||
Angel
Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Status: Offline Points: 6641 |
Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:38am | |
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity-04.htm Part 04(True meaning of the word "God") I think that it is important at this stage that I point out a fact that is quite often overlooked today. Theos {theh'-os} is by far the most common Greek word that we translate as God or god. Below are the possible meanings of the word 'theos'. 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities So the Father is God because of his authority. However God the author also sends messengers with his authority, so when our Father anoints someone to speak His words, that person is given the title god whether he be an angel or a man. In addition, someone or something that takes takes the place of God is also called a god, a false god. So looks look at some biblical verses that apply the word God (Theos) to denote different personalities. Below we see a verse where the word 'theos' is used when referring to the Father. Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV) Now you will see a verse where the Greek word 'theos' is used to describe Jesus. John 20:28-29 (English-NIV) The word 'theos' in the next verse is used to describe Satan as he is the author of this world/age. 2 Corinthians 4:4 (English-NIV) The word (theos) is also used to describe Man see below. John 10:34 (English-NIV) The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and again we see that the word "God" can apply to our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, Angelic & Demonic powers, idols and mankind. The NIV & NASB translate the following 3 words as God "el" "eloah" & "elohim" Below is a scripture that shows that the Father is God. Malachi 2:10 (English-NIV) Next I will show you a verse where the Hebrew word "eloah" is used to describe Jesus. Isaiah 9:6 (English-NIV) Next we can see that the word god is used to denote idols. Exodus 20:23 (English-NIV) The word "Elohim" is the most common word that is translated God in the Old Testament. Genesis 1:1 (English-NIV) says: "Elohim" is also used to describe Man. See next the verse. Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV) Even angels are called gods in Psalm 97:7. This verse is actually quoted in the Hebrews 1:6 and it is referring to the Angels. Psalm 97:7 These scriptures show us that the word God is actually a term and is not always used to describe the Most High God, rather it is a term that can apply to many types of authority. I think that it is very important that we read each verse in its correct context e.g. The Most High God is completely different to the god of this age. In other words the type of God that is being referred to is determined by the adjective or context of the sentence. It is incorrect to read the word 'God' as the Most High God in every case. In fact the very term 'Most High God' leads us to conclude that there must be lesser gods. We know that the word 'Elohim' is a term and not a name, but does God have a name? Yes he does, his name is YHWH which is called the "tetragrammaton," meaning "the four letters," and it is the revealed personal name of God, which scholars translate as Yahweh, Jehovah, Yahvah amongst others. Now there is no such letter in Hebrew to make the sound of a �J�. and many Hebrew names contain an emphasis on *Yah*, including Jesus who's name is actually 'Yahshua' in sound. But the translation Yahweh is not actually a translation of the tetragrammaton, it is a transliteration meaning the sounds of those original Hebrew letters have been reproduced into another language. Names should never really be translated from one language to another. They should always be transliterated as are most Biblical names. For example, Abraham in Hebrew is pronounced Abrawhawm; Sarah is pronounced Sawraw. Today if President Bush goes to Germany they will pronounce his name George Bush, they won't change it into a German word. So the name of Yahweh should be pronounced exactly the same in all languages. God first reveals his name in Exodus.3:15 and Psalm 135:13 God's response to Moses, lets those that have understanding, that 'God' is not a name, but a title and as I have already shown, this particular title can refer to others including man, angel and false gods. Therefore when we read the word God in the bible, it is important to consider the context in which it is written. Now YHWH declares in Psalm 2:7 the following: "I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Therefore YHWH (God) is the Father of Jesus. Jesus is not YHWH. Jesus is the Son of YHWH, otherwise known as the Son of God. |
||
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
|
||
Angel
Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Status: Offline Points: 6641 |
Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:40am | |
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity-03.htm Part 03 (Who is Jesus?) Matthew 3:17 (English-NIV) If the Father is God, then who is Jesus and where did he come from ? In Matthew 16:13-17 (English-NIV) it says Notice that Peter didn't say to Jesus, "You are God". Mark 9:7 (English-NIV) So who are we to argue or change this truth? It is also interesting to note that the demons never referred to Jesus as God. They referred to him as the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 (English-NIV) Luke 4:41 (English-NIV) Even Satan didn't refer to Jesus as God but rather the Son of God. See Matthew 4:3-6 (English-NIV) Philippians 2:8-11 (English-NIV) Shows us that eventually everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This is the correct confession. If everyone will eventually confess this truth, then why not start now. To declare that Jesus Christ is God is a different confession and shows a lack of understanding about who Jesus really is. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross! Many today do not understand that Lord and God are 2 different words. Just as Pharaoh was the true ruler of Egypt, he gave his authority to Joseph who was Lord over all the Pharaoh's kingdom. It must also be noted that Lord and LORD are 2 different words. The Father is LORD and Jesus is Lord. Translators capitalize the name of God as LORD which causes this confusion. So Jesus being Lord is not the same as LORD in the OT. Lord in the Old Testament comes from the name of God, YHWH. That is also why it is written that the Father is the one true God and Jesus is the Lord. To say that Jesus is the LORD is to say that he is the one true God (YHWH) and it is not correct and nor is it taught in scripture. When referring to Jesus, he is Lord and we know that there are many lords. Landlords, warlords, lords over kingdoms etc. But God made Jesus Lord over all that is his (God's). Acts 2:36 (English NIV) Acts 10:36 (English NIV) Now the following 7 scriptures reveal Jesus true identity. Colossians 1:12-16 (English-NIV) Hebrews 1:1-6 (English-NIV) Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV) John 1:1 (English-NIV) Ephesians 1:22 Revelation 3:14 (English-KJV) John 1:3 (English-NIV) These 7 passages of scripture show us the following:
So Jesus is the Image of God, the Son of God and the beginning of the creation of God. Now to be an image is a simple declaration that you are not the original and to be a Son is also a declaration that you have a source and the source of the Son is the Father. It is very easy to understand, but the Trinity doctrine tries very hard to confuse the minds of believers, so that they do not understand the truth that God is a person/identity and that this God has a son who is like him. The Trinity doctrine would have us believe that the Father Son and Holy Spirit have always existed for all eternity together, when in actual fact it is God the Father who has existed for all eternity. Jesus came from the Father and all of creation came from Jesus including Man and just to take this one step further, woman came from the Man. Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV) Jesus is the Word of God. Another title that states he is of God or from God. Revelation 19:11-13 (English-KJV) Acts 3:15 (English-NIV) Here we can see that Jesus is the Author of Life, yet it was God that raised him from the dead. So we cannot say as many do that Jesus is God because creation came from him. Rather we have to understand that God created all things though his Word, who is Christ. The next scripture shows us that the Father is God and Jesus is his son. We read that Jesus himself learned obedience through suffering, just like us. We are then called to obey Jesus who is the high priest and our eternal salvation. But if Jesus were God, then how could he actually learn something. Isn't God suppose to be all knowing? Hebrews 5:8-10 (English-NIV) Continuing with the theme of God being all knowing, below you will see scriptures that show us that Jesus is not all knowing. Matthew 24:36 (English-NIV) John 5:30 (English-NIV) Mark 10:17-18 (English-NIV) Here we can see that Jesus said that only God is good and he made it quite plain that he did not want to be called good. If we say that Jesus is one of the equal persons that make up God, then we are not speaking the truth, rather we are following the doctrines of man and demon. Jesus taught us clearly that his Father is his God and that he is greater than himself. To truly honor the Father we must honor his Son. To honor Jesus is to believe the truth about him and believe his own words. "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 13:16 (English-NIV) John 6:29 (English NIV) John 8:42 (English NIV) Please do not pass over this without understanding it. It is important. When Jesus came to earth he came for a reason. Hebrews 2:14 (English-NIV) 1 John 3:8 (English-NIV) Jesus also came to show us God, to declare him and to bring us back into fellowship with God, this actually equates to destroying the work of the Devil. It is the Devils works that have alienated Man from God, it is Jesus works commissioned by the Father that brings Man back to God. John 17:26 (English-NIV) John 14:8-9 (English-NIV) Here we can see that Jesus was teaching the disciples about the Father. John 1:18 (English-KJV) The next scriptures point out quite clearly that we must honor the Son if we are to honor our Father God. John 5:23 (English-NIV) John 12:44 (English-NIV) If Jesus is the Image of his Father, then it makes sense that whatever we say about Jesus we are also saying about his Father. If we slander Jesus then we are slandering God, not because Jesus is God, rather he is like God. If you slander the Son would that not be offensive to the Father. It is interesting to note that Jesus also said that whatever we say about the least of his brethren, we are saying it to him, this is because we (believers) are being made into the image of Christ. But this doesn't actually make us Christ, rather we are like him. God -> Christ -> Man/Church Colossians 2:9-10 So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us. But some try to say that Jesus is the Deity, yet they know full well that we are not Christ. To be divine and to be the Divine is 2 different things. One identifies a nature/quality and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his family, his sons. So Christ has divine nature as the Son should. But we can also partake of the divine nature and that doesn't make us God either. 2 Peter 1:4 The next 3 scriptures show us all good gifts come from the Father, this even includes Jesus himself and God's Spirit. James 1:17-18 (English-NIV) Romans 8:32 (English-NIV) Luke 11:13 (English-NIV) If Jesus is truly the Son of God, then do we believers worship him ? Hebrews 1:6 (English-NIV) This verse shows us that God wants his Angels to worship Jesus. Matthew 2:2 (English-NIV) Matthew 2:8 (English-NIV) But doesn't worshipping Jesus contradict many scriptures? Exodus 34:14 (English-NIV) Luke 4:8 (English-NIV) Worshipping Jesus is scriptural and actually doesn't contradict the above scriptures. Why? Because we do not worship Jesus as God, rather the Son of God and the Lamb of God. Matthew 14:33 Revelation 5: 12-14 (English-NIV) The last verse above shows us that God and Jesus are worshipped in heaven. We worship Jesus as the Son of God and we worship the Father as God. All honor and worship to Jesus is really honor and worship to the Father anyway, because Jesus is the only way to God. Not all worship and praise is identified as being toward God alone. At times God's servants recieve praise such as King David, but such praise glorifies God. For if God's representitive recieves praise for doing the will fo God, then it is ultimately God that recieves that praise. We can even worship God by simply acknowledging the beauty of nature and the universe, as long as we acknowlege that God created then. So Jesus shares the same honor that is due to the Father as he visibly represents his Father, the Invisible God. John 5:23 (English-NIV) John 14:6 (English-NIV) Those people who worship the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as 3 separate persons and each as God are really worshipping more than one God. Trinitarian believers will refute this and say that the 3 persons are one God, yet they worship any of the 3 that they want to at anytime. Let's just get real here and admit that such people worship 3 Gods. On one day it may be the Son, another the Father and another the Holy Spirit or all at the same time. But the scriptures are very clear with regards to worshipping the one true God. YHWH is the one true God. So the scriptures are quite clear as to who Jesus is. He is the Son of God and the Messiah. We also know that by it's very definition, a Father is the originator and a Son has a source. Now some people believe that Jesus Christ did not exist before his birth on earth, even though they acknowledge that Jesus is the Logos/Word. They say that he didn't actually exist as a person till he was clothed in flesh and was born on this earth. Well I will let the scriptures speak for themselves. John 6:8 Now the scripture you have just read points out 2 things. First, that Jesus came from Heaven, so he must have existed before his birth as a man, and secondly that he has his own will and he chose to align his will with God's will. The next scriptures also show us that Christ existed before he came to earth. John 1:15 We know from scripture that John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. This verse shows a pre-existance. Jude 1:25 This verse is either saying that glory, majesty, power... before all ages or it is saying the same thing but through Jesus Christ before all ages. Most translations favour the second option, but some do not mention the 'through Jesus Christ' part such as the King Kames version. 1Corinthians 10:1-4 So it appears that Christ accompanied Moses and the Jews when they left Egypt. Colossians 1:15-17 Hebrews 1:1-2 So God created all things were created through Christ. Surely this suggests that he must have existed before all things in order for God to create all things through him. John 17:5 So Jesus had glory before the world began. John 1:1 This verse mentions God as a person, except for the last word 'god' which is talking about the nature of God. i.e In the beginning was the Divinity and the Word was with the Divinity and the word was divine. The verse says that the Word existed with God as another person and he had the nature of that God. For more information about this, visit the following page: Luke 10:18 Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. John 8:58 The last verse says I am, which means I exist or I existed. Finally to conclude this part of the study, I want to point out a very interesting scripture from the Book of Proverbs. The verse is Proverbs 8:22-30 (English-NIV) and it talks about the concept of wisdom, then to wisdom himself:
So from this verse we can see the following points.
But some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way as wisdom is referred to as a she. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Even today we refer to objects or concepts as 'she'. We call boats, cars, wars, etc., 'she'. E.g., "She was a bad war alright". "She can drive fast enough." "She was a powerful storm." But if I said "he can drive fast enough", then most would assume I was talking about a person and not the car. But if wisdom in God was the first to be begotten (brought forth) then who was really first to be begotten? Was it wisdom or the son? Or are they one in the same? For God created all things with wisdom and would it be incorrect to call Jesus 'Wisdom'. If God created all things in truth, would it be incorrect to call Christ the 'Truth'. If God who is the originator of all life gave that life to his son, then could we not say that Jesus is the 'Life'. It appears that he is all those concepts or attributes of God, but personified. After all God created all creation through Christ and so would it not be befitting for Christ to be the personification of all those attributes of God. Remember these two points:
1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV) 1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV) Let's look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:
If we go back to Proverbs 8:22-30 and look at John 1:1, we see the following similarities. John 1:1 (English-NIV) Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV) Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV) |
||
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
|
||
Angela
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:52am | |
Wow, Angel, I just have to say WoW! I'm going to have to really read this on Sunday when I have hte time and respond to you. Is it okay if I also use my own beliefs? Or do you not even want those in the equation? |
||
Angel
Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Status: Offline Points: 6641 |
Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:53am | |
If those who believe Jesus is God, then bring your support even thou I don't follow Christianity I have never believed that Jesus is God. Jesus showed us the way by communicating God's words, taught the word of God (the word became flesh) and showed the way, God's way - God's nature/God's will/Holy Spirit. This doesn't violate monotheism. The belief in One God. In the trinity this is what I believe would be the most closest and my own understanding: Father - the word - thoughts/concepts/instruction, coming from God. Son - Jesus - the word becomes flesh, Jesus acts out 'the word', speaks the words of God, and demostrates how to live the way of truth. Still coming from God but Jesus is "no way" God nor like God, he simple provided the instructions from God. Jesus being the intermidary. Holy Spirit - (according to religious theology there is 2 natures/wills - our self nature and God's) God's will or God's nature, which ever one you want to use, now Jesus instead of acting out his nature, he acted out God's nature. And since this nature is of God, it is I believe considered Divine / Divinity and anything coming from and/or pertaining from God is of Divine nature which is considered Holy.
This, my view doesn't show Jesus to be God - our Creator. |
||
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
|
||
Angel
Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Status: Offline Points: 6641 |
Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:59am | |
ummmm Yep of course you can I did ask those who kept saying that Jesus is God to explain, show support for it Since I just put my opinion / view of why Jesus is NOt God
p.s: everyone: my quota of 10 percent copying is done oh and I won't be around for the weekend. Edited by Angel |
||
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
|
||
Angela
Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
Posted: 21 April 2006 at 10:06am | |
Well, there ya go, I would actually be arguing in support of you. Since we don't believe Elohim and Jesus are the same. |
||
Post Reply | Page 123 153> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |