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2:2 This scripture, no doubt ...

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airmano View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 February 2018 at 1:40pm
A question:

I guess that most of the Muslim would agree on the following statements:

A) It is claimed that Muhammad was illiterate.
B) Initially the Quran was based on- and intended for- oral transmission only.
C) The Quran was compiled after Muhammad's death and that he never gave the order to do so in his lifetime.
D) Muhammad drew a clear line between Christians, Jews and his young Muslim community by calling the former "people of the book" (as opposed to the Muslim "recitation community").

So how do you explain 2:2 where all translations use explicitly terms like "book" and "scripture" for the Quran, a term the prophet would have never accepted in his lifetime.

Thus, asked more provocatively: Who corrupted the Quran after Muhammad's death ?

Any ideas ?


Airmano


Edited by airmano - 04 February 2018 at 2:04pm
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luke6_37 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2018 at 5:49am
I'm not sure how Muhammad understood the term "people of the book", because a book is not the foundation of either the Christian or Jewish faith. For Christians, the foundation of our faith is Jesus. For Jews, the foundation of their faith is the Covenant between God and Abraham. In Islam, the foundation is the Qur'an, but it is my understanding that Muslims understand the Qur'an not so much as a written text, but as a speaking voice. So the way I see it, the foundation of each religion is different. For Christians it is a person (Jesus), for Jews it is an agreement (Covenant), and for Muslims it is a voice (Qu'ran).

Perhaps the dissonance you are feeling over the role of the text comes from relatively modern assumptions about how a text functions in a religious community. In the 16th century, Protestant Christians threw out Sacred Tradition, Apostolic Succession and the Sacraments and elevated the Bible to near divine status. To a Roman Catholic, this is a bit idolatrous. Catholics believe the text of the Bible is "God breathed" in the same way that Adam (and humans in general) are "God breathed" - we reveal something of God, because we bear God's image, but that doesn't make it or us divine.

Edited by Luke6_37 - 09 February 2018 at 5:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2018 at 5:02am
@Luke

What you wrote doesn't change the fact that Muhammad would -as far as I can see- never have used a term like "scripture" for the Quran, which has the explicit meaning of "written text" and even less a term like "book" in the sense of "compiled written text". Obviously there are more verses like that, as 6:114 for example. This doesn't make it any better.

So I insist: Somebody (Uthman ?) must have tinkered with it after Muhammad's death.


Airmano

Edited by airmano - 13 February 2018 at 1:45am
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ovibos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2018 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

A question:

I guess that most of the Muslim would agree on the following statements:

A) It is claimed that Muhammad was illiterate.
B) Initially the Quran was based on- and intended for- oral transmission only.
C) The Quran was compiled after Muhammad's death and that he never gave the order to do so in his lifetime.
D) Muhammad drew a clear line between Christians, Jews and his young Muslim community by calling the former "people of the book" (as opposed to the Muslim "recitation community").

So how do you explain 2:2 where all translations use explicitly terms like "book" and "scripture" for the Quran, a term the prophet would have never accepted in his lifetime.

Thus, asked more provocatively: Who corrupted the Quran after Muhammad's death ?

Any ideas ?


Airmano

in my humble opinion, Allah knows the future.
While it is true that there was no canonisation of Al Quran when Q 2:2 was revealed, He knows that someday there will be Quran in the form of a book. That's why the verse states "THAT book ..."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 February 2018 at 1:48am

Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

A) It is claimed that Muhammad was illiterate.

 

It not just 'claimed' as you choose to put it. This is an absolute 'fact', with evidence in the Quran:

 

[7:157]

 الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الْ�£ُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِنْدَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ يَ�£ْمُرُهُمْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَائِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالْ�£َغْلَالَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُوا النُّورَ الَّذِي �£ُنْزِلَ مَعَهُ �£ُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel - for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); he releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, it is they who will prosper."

 

[7:158]

 قُلْ يَا �£َيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنِّي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعًا الَّذِي لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْ�£َرْضِ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ يُحْيِي وَيُمِيتُ فَآمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ النَّبِيِّ الْ�£ُمِّيِّ الَّذِي يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَكَلِمَاتِهِ وَاتَّبِعُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ

Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believed in Allah and His Words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

 

Allah SWT Chose our prophet Muhammad SAWS to be illiterate on purpose: to silence all the enemies of Islam who might come in future years and say: "Your prophet was a learned man, a philosopher, a scientist, a poet...etc, therefore he must have been able to invent (and write, and edit...) the Quran himself".

 

Quote B) Initially the Quran was based on- and intended for- oral transmission only.

 

Who told you this? Do you claim to know God's intentions?

 

Quote C) The Quran was compiled after Muhammad's death and that he never gave the order to do so in his lifetime.

 

Not only was The Qur'an written during Prophet Muhammad's life time, but it was being written down as it was revealed... under his supervision and scrutiny. The prophet had 43 scribes available to him at any time, and we know everything there's to know about them. Compare this to other scriptures from other religions (even from non-Muslim sources) and you will find a different story. I am not putting down other religions... it's just that they were much older and therefore the 'means' were probably more difficult to come by. Also you will find that previous scriptures were not entirely the Word of God (as the Qur'an is), they were authored by men, it's a well known fact.

 

Quote D) Muhammad drew a clear line between Christians, Jews and his young Muslim community by calling the former "people of the book" (as opposed to the Muslim "recitation community").

 

Prophet Muhammad SAWS did not call anybody anything... Allah SWT Calls any group of people whatever He Wishes... our prophet was only the messenger. BTW, where did you get "recitation community" from?

 

Quote ...So how do you explain 2:2 where all translations use explicitly terms like "book" and "scripture" for the Quran, a term the prophet would have never accepted in his lifetime...

 

You are 'presuming' to know what the prophet accepted, and what he did not accept!... well I shall tell you: The prophet PBUH only accepted and rejected what Allah SWT Told him to accept or reject... i.e. he followed the message of the Qur'an to the letter (this is also evidenced in the Qur'an).

The term for 'book' (Kitaab) in Arabic denotes something that is 'written down' even if it's just one line, same for the term 'scripture' which has the same origin as the term 'scribe'.

 

Quote ...Thus, asked more provocatively: Who corrupted the Quran after Muhammad's death ?...

 

You should not use 'provocative' language here. If you ask a question, then show us that you really 'want to know' (or is that not the case here?). Your aim should be to seek answers, not 'provoke' a reaction. If your intentions are different then you are in the wrong site.

 

But... you have asked a question so some of us will try to answer it for you.

 

You seem to have a problem with how and when the Qur'an was recorded, collected, written...etc

 

The sending down of the Quran was completed when the Prophet was alive; similarly, it was recorded and memorized (by heart... entirely) when the Prophet (pbuh) was alive.

 

As the Quran was revealed verse by verse or chapter by chapter, the Prophet would summon one (or more) of the revelation scribes and dictated them. The prophet would tell him to which chapter to add the new verse or verses and after which verses. However, the revelations were not sent chronologically; they were sent based on the style of the Quran peculiar to it. All of the verses and chapters that were revealed were recorded in the presence of (and supervised by) the Prophet (pbuh).

 

The revelation scribes also wrote a copy for themselves. Thus, the verses were recorded and written safely. The verses that had been written were recited in the presence of the Prophet and any mistakes, if there were any, were corrected. The first copy of the verses that were written was kept in the house of the Prophet (pbuh). All of the (formal) written copies were kept in the house of the Prophet (pbuh).

 

There was not enough paper at that time; so the revelations were written on tanned leathers, wooden tablets, camel scapulas, white flat stones, branches of date palm trees, pieces of paper and porcelain. The order of the verses was determined by definite orders and decrees.  Jibril AS (Gabriel) would say to the Prophet (pbuh),"Put this verse in such and such chapter." and the Prophet (pbuh) would order and arrange the verses accordingly. The prophet PBUH did not do this from his own accord.

 

According to many Islamic scholars, "The arrangement of the verses in the chapters was done by the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) based on the description of Jibril AS." The arrangement of the chapters was made based on revelation like the arrangement of the verses. As a matter of fact, the arrangement of the Qur'an, which was a work of revelation in all aspects, had to be done based on revelation.

 

The whole Quran was memorized by many Companions at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), many of whom were present at the time of revelation and recording.

 

There were many people who had memorized the whole Quran then. The Companions read it based on a certain order. This order was arranged by the Prophet (pbuh), who was told to do it that way by Allah SWT (Through Jibreel AS):

 

"It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it: But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated)." (al-Qiyama,[75:17-18])

 

Allah SWT, in this verse, is Telling His Prophet PBUH: "Do not worry about collecting the Qur'an, that's on Us (i.e. on Me)".

 

The Quran was not a hardback during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) as it is today. It was not necessary then. For, the revelation had just ended and the Prophet (pbuh) was alive.

 

The martyrdom of more than seventy Muslims who had memorized the Quran during the Battle of Yamama after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) and similar incidents made it necessary for the Quran to be compiled as a hardback.

 

During the caliphate of Abu Bakr RA, all the Quran was still written on various materials (as well as having been  learnt by heart by most of the companions), so he ordered them to be checked and kept safely together. During the caliphate of Uthman RA, he ordered the Qur'an to be transferred from the various materials into a proper 'book', which was called a "Mus’haf".

 

Some of the companions RA who were present at the very time of revelation of the Qur'an, wrote their own record of the Qur'an in order to keep it at home (as their own copy)... however THEY only wrote down what THEY witnessed as it was revealed (THEY were not present at the time of EVERY revelation)... so when Uthman RA ordered the (most senior) scribes to collect, check and write ONE COPY of the COMPLETE Qur'an, he then ordered all other copies to be destroyed by burning in order to eliminate all confusion (Quite rightly... Any of us would have done exactly the same... And all Muslims are, and should forever be, grateful to Uthman RA for this great initiative favour). He then ordered a few copies of this Mus'haf to be reproduced and sent them to various corners and important places in the Islamic Empire.

 

Therefore the Qur'an was preserved from the word go... or Islamically speaking: from the word 'Iqraa'.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2018 at 1:08pm
@Miaw
A bit long your post !?

I'll keep it short: in this Hadith you find:

"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to `Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" `

When you read it carefully you realize that his question never got answered.


Airmano

The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2018 at 2:29am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@Miaw
A bit long your post !?

Hi airmano,
Apologies about the long post. It couldn't be avoided. I take your point though. Touché!

Quote ... I'll keep it short: in this Hadith you find:

"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to `Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" `

When you read it carefully you realize that his question never got answered.


Airmano


If you look 'carefully' at the Hadith in question, you will find that the question was answered within the Hadith itself.

Let me take you back a bit:

As Prophet Muhammad PBUH was receiving the revelation (Qur'an), he was very worried that any of it (verse, chapter...etc) would be lost and forgotten, and hence the Qur'an would not be complete and its recitation would suffer as a result. So, in order to appease and comfort His Prophet, Allah Made him this promise: 

Qur'an [75:17]

Sahih International: Indeed, upon Us is its collection [in your heart] and [to make possible] its recitation.

Pickthall: Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof.

Yusuf Ali: It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:

Shakir: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.

Muhammad Sarwar: We shall be responsible for its collection and its recitation.

Mohsin Khan: It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad SAW) the ability to recite it (the Quran),

Arberry: Ours it is to gather it, and to recite it.


After this verse was revealed, Prophet Muhammad PBUH never worried about the Qur'an for the rest of his life... because he received a promise from He Who Never Breaks a Promise (Namely Allah SWT). i.e. Allah has now Confirmed that the Qur'an is in 'good hands'.

So, first, Allah SWT collected the Qur'an in the Prophet's heart (thus preventing it from being lost), and  when these 3 companions (Abu Bakr, Umar and Zaid RA) were discussing what to do, Allah SWT Fulfilled His Promise again by collecting the Qur'an again (this time: in a physical form, through these companions); that is why in the Hadith that you quoted:

Abu Bakr RA said: "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it..."

and then Zaid said: "Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and `Umar..."



Note: This great Hadith is a good reminder for me about the fact that Islam was 'spared' the problems that other religions have.

How?...

Because it shows how our Prophet's companions had so much 'Fear of Allah' (a very praise-worthy quality) in following the message of Islam 'to the letter' that they were very 'reluctant' to even collect the Qur'an, as they did not want to do something that their Prophet did not do. i.e. they were not discussing 'changing' the Qur'an... just 'collecting it' was a source of worry for them.

Compare this to other religions, where (high-ranking, religious...) people changed and edited their 'books' as they pleased, without a worry in the world!... and then they say: "it's from God, it's God's word". The Qur'an tells us about this:

[2:79]



[3:78]


So... on the Day of Judgement, I believe that we will all be asked about what book we followed, and was it entirely God's authentic Word.


MIAW

Slightly long again, sorry.






Edited by MIAW - 27 February 2018 at 11:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 March 2018 at 5:59am
Quote Airmano
 ... I'll keep it short: in this Hadith you find:

"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to `Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" `
When you read it carefully you realize that his question never got answered.

Answer Miaw: 
If you look 'carefully' at the Hadith in question, you will find that the question was answered within the Hadith itself....:

Abu Bakr RA said: "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it..."
and then Zaid said: "Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and `Umar..."


So, Allah opened their chest. Seriously, is this the only "proof" you have to offer ?


 Airmano


Edited by airmano - 02 March 2018 at 8:19am
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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