2:2 This scripture, no doubt ... |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | ||||||
airmano
Senior Member Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 04 February 2018 at 1:40pm |
|||||
A question:
I guess that most of the Muslim would agree on the following statements: A) It is claimed that Muhammad was illiterate. B) Initially the Quran was based on- and intended for- oral transmission only. C) The Quran was compiled after Muhammad's death and that he never gave the order to do so in his lifetime. D) Muhammad drew a clear line between Christians, Jews and his young Muslim community by calling the former "people of the book" (as opposed to the Muslim "recitation community"). So how do you explain 2:2 where all translations use explicitly terms like "book" and "scripture" for the Quran, a term the prophet would have never accepted in his lifetime. Thus, asked more provocatively: Who corrupted the Quran after Muhammad's death ? Any ideas ? Airmano Edited by airmano - 04 February 2018 at 2:04pm |
||||||
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
|
||||||
Luke6_37
Newbie Male Joined: 06 February 2018 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||
I'm not sure how Muhammad understood the term "people of the book", because a book is not the foundation of either the Christian or Jewish faith. For Christians, the foundation of our faith is Jesus. For Jews, the foundation of their faith is the Covenant between God and Abraham. In Islam, the foundation is the Qur'an, but it is my understanding that Muslims understand the Qur'an not so much as a written text, but as a speaking voice. So the way I see it, the foundation of each religion is different. For Christians it is a person (Jesus), for Jews it is an agreement (Covenant), and for Muslims it is a voice (Qu'ran).
Perhaps the dissonance you are feeling over the role of the text comes from relatively modern assumptions about how a text functions in a religious community. In the 16th century, Protestant Christians threw out Sacred Tradition, Apostolic Succession and the Sacraments and elevated the Bible to near divine status. To a Roman Catholic, this is a bit idolatrous. Catholics believe the text of the Bible is "God breathed" in the same way that Adam (and humans in general) are "God breathed" - we reveal something of God, because we bear God's image, but that doesn't make it or us divine. Edited by Luke6_37 - 09 February 2018 at 5:51am |
||||||
airmano
Senior Member Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||
@Luke
What you wrote doesn't change the fact that Muhammad would -as far as I can see- never have used a term like "scripture" for the Quran, which has the explicit meaning of "written text" and even less a term like "book" in the sense of "compiled written text". Obviously there are more verses like that, as 6:114 for example. This doesn't make it any better. So I insist: Somebody (Uthman ?) must have tinkered with it after Muhammad's death. Airmano Edited by airmano - 13 February 2018 at 1:45am |
||||||
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
|
||||||
ovibos
Newbie Joined: 14 September 2016 Status: Offline Points: 34 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||
in my humble opinion, Allah knows the future. While it is true that there was no canonisation of Al Quran when Q 2:2 was revealed, He knows that someday there will be Quran in the form of a book. That's why the verse states "THAT book ..." |
||||||
MIAW
Senior Member Islam Joined: 17 January 2018 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 492 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||
It not just 'claimed' as you choose to put it. This is an
absolute 'fact', with evidence in the Quran: [7:157] الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الْ�£ُمِّيَّ الَّذِي
يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِنْدَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ يَ�£ْمُرُهُمْ
بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ
وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَائِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالْ�£َغْلَالَ
الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ
وَاتَّبَعُوا النُّورَ الَّذِي �£ُنْزِلَ مَعَهُ �£ُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered
Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the
Law and the Gospel - for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is
evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from
what is bad (and impure); he releases them from their heavy burdens and from
the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him,
help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, it is they who will
prosper." [7:158] قُلْ يَا �£َيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنِّي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعًا
الَّذِي لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْ�£َرْضِ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ يُحْيِي
وَيُمِيتُ فَآمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ النَّبِيِّ الْ�£ُمِّيِّ الَّذِي
يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَكَلِمَاتِهِ وَاتَّبِعُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of
Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no
god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and
His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believed in Allah and
His Words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided." Allah SWT Chose our prophet Muhammad SAWS to be illiterate on
purpose: to silence all the enemies of Islam who might come in future years and
say: "Your prophet was a learned man, a philosopher, a scientist, a
poet...etc, therefore he must have been able to invent (and write, and edit...)
the Quran himself".
Who told you this? Do you claim to know God's intentions?
Not only was The Qur'an written during Prophet Muhammad's life
time, but it was being written down as it was revealed... under his supervision
and scrutiny. The prophet had 43 scribes available to him at any time, and we
know everything there's to know about them. Compare this to other scriptures
from other religions (even from non-Muslim sources) and you will find a
different story. I am not putting down other religions... it's just that they
were much older and therefore the 'means' were probably more difficult to come
by. Also you will find that previous scriptures were not entirely the Word of
God (as the Qur'an is), they were authored by men, it's a well known fact.
Prophet Muhammad SAWS did not call anybody anything... Allah
SWT Calls any group of people whatever He Wishes... our prophet was only the
messenger. BTW, where did you get "recitation community" from?
You are 'presuming' to know what the prophet accepted, and
what he did not accept!... well I shall tell you: The prophet PBUH only
accepted and rejected what Allah SWT Told him to accept or reject... i.e. he
followed the message of the Qur'an to the letter (this is also evidenced in the
Qur'an). The term for 'book' (Kitaab) in Arabic denotes something that
is 'written down' even if it's just one line, same for the term 'scripture'
which has the same origin as the term 'scribe'.
You should not use 'provocative' language here. If you ask a
question, then show us that you really 'want to know' (or is that not the case
here?). Your aim should be to seek answers, not 'provoke' a reaction. If your
intentions are different then you are in the wrong site. But... you have asked a question so some of us will try to
answer it for you. You seem to have a problem with how and when the Qur'an was
recorded, collected, written...etc The sending down of the Quran was completed when the Prophet
was alive; similarly, it was recorded and memorized (by heart... entirely) when the Prophet (pbuh) was
alive. As the Quran was revealed verse by verse or chapter by
chapter, the Prophet would summon one (or more) of the revelation scribes and
dictated them. The prophet would tell him to which chapter to add the new verse
or verses and after which verses. However, the revelations were not sent
chronologically; they were sent based on the style of the Quran peculiar to it.
All of the verses and chapters that were revealed were recorded in the presence
of (and supervised by) the Prophet (pbuh). The revelation scribes also wrote a copy for themselves. Thus,
the verses were recorded and written safely. The verses that had been written
were recited in the presence of the Prophet and any mistakes, if there were
any, were corrected. The first copy of the verses that were written was kept in
the house of the Prophet (pbuh). All of the (formal) written copies were kept in the
house of the Prophet (pbuh). There was not enough paper at that time; so the revelations
were written on tanned leathers, wooden tablets, camel scapulas, white flat
stones, branches of date palm trees, pieces of paper and porcelain. The order of the
verses was determined by definite orders and decrees. Jibril AS (Gabriel) would say to the Prophet
(pbuh),"Put this verse in such and such chapter." and the Prophet
(pbuh) would order and arrange the verses accordingly. The prophet PBUH did not
do this from his own accord. According to many Islamic scholars, "The arrangement of
the verses in the chapters was done by the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) based on
the description of Jibril AS." The arrangement of the chapters was made
based on revelation like the arrangement of the verses. As a matter of fact,
the arrangement of the Qur'an, which was a work of revelation in all aspects,
had to be done based on revelation. The whole Quran was memorized by many Companions at the time
of the Prophet (pbuh), many of whom were present at the time of revelation and
recording. There were many people who had memorized the whole Quran then.
The Companions read it based on a certain order. This order was arranged by the Prophet (pbuh), who was told to do it that way by Allah SWT (Through Jibreel AS): "It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it: But
when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated)."
(al-Qiyama,[75:17-18]) Allah SWT, in this verse, is Telling His Prophet PBUH:
"Do not worry about collecting the Qur'an, that's on Us (i.e. on
Me)". The Quran was not a hardback during the time of the Prophet
(pbuh) as it is today. It was not necessary then. For, the revelation had just
ended and the Prophet (pbuh) was alive. The martyrdom of more than seventy Muslims who had memorized
the Quran during the Battle of Yamama after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) and
similar incidents made it necessary for the Quran to be compiled as a hardback. During the caliphate of Abu Bakr RA, all the Quran was still
written on various materials (as well as having been learnt by heart by most of the companions),
so he ordered them to be checked and kept safely together. During the caliphate
of Uthman RA, he ordered the Qur'an to be transferred from the various
materials into a proper 'book', which was called a "Mus’haf". Some of the companions RA who were present at the very time of
revelation of the Qur'an, wrote their own record of the Qur'an in order to keep
it at home (as their own copy)... however THEY only wrote down what THEY
witnessed as it was revealed (THEY were not present at the time of EVERY
revelation)... so when Uthman RA ordered the (most senior) scribes to collect,
check and write ONE COPY of the COMPLETE Qur'an, he then ordered all other
copies to be destroyed by burning in order to eliminate all confusion (Quite
rightly... Any of us would have done exactly the same... And all Muslims are, and should forever be, grateful to Uthman RA for this great initiative favour). He then ordered a few
copies of this Mus'haf to be reproduced and sent them to various corners and
important places in the Islamic Empire. Therefore the Qur'an was preserved from the word go... or
Islamically speaking: from the word 'Iqraa'. |
||||||
airmano
Senior Member Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||
@Miaw
A bit long your post !? I'll keep it short: in this Hadith you find: "Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to `Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" ` When you read it carefully you realize that his question never got answered. Airmano |
||||||
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
|
||||||
MIAW
Senior Member Islam Joined: 17 January 2018 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 492 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||
Hi airmano, Apologies about the long post. It couldn't be avoided. I take your point though. Touché!
If you look 'carefully' at the Hadith in question, you will find that the question was answered within the Hadith itself. Let me take you back a bit: As Prophet Muhammad PBUH was receiving the revelation (Qur'an), he was very worried that any of it (verse, chapter...etc) would be lost and forgotten, and hence the Qur'an would not be complete and its recitation would suffer as a result. So, in order to appease and comfort His Prophet, Allah Made him this promise: Qur'an [75:17] Sahih International: Indeed, upon Us is its collection [in your heart] and [to make possible] its recitation. Pickthall: Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof. Yusuf Ali: It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it: Shakir: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it. Muhammad Sarwar: We shall be responsible for its collection and its recitation. Mohsin Khan: It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad SAW) the ability to recite it (the Quran), Arberry: Ours it is to gather it, and to recite it. After this verse was revealed, Prophet Muhammad PBUH never worried about the Qur'an for the rest of his life... because he received a promise from He Who Never Breaks a Promise (Namely Allah SWT). i.e. Allah has now Confirmed that the Qur'an is in 'good hands'. So, first, Allah SWT collected the Qur'an in the Prophet's heart (thus preventing it from being lost), and when these 3 companions (Abu Bakr, Umar and Zaid RA) were discussing what to do, Allah SWT Fulfilled His Promise again by collecting the Qur'an again (this time: in a physical form, through these companions); that is why in the Hadith that you quoted: Abu Bakr RA said: "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it..." and then Zaid said: "Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and `Umar..." Note: This great Hadith is a good reminder for me about the fact that Islam was 'spared' the problems that other religions have. How?... Because it shows how our Prophet's companions had so much 'Fear of Allah' (a very praise-worthy quality) in following the message of Islam 'to the letter' that they were very 'reluctant' to even collect the Qur'an, as they did not want to do something that their Prophet did not do. i.e. they were not discussing 'changing' the Qur'an... just 'collecting it' was a source of worry for them. Compare this to other religions, where (high-ranking, religious...) people changed and edited their 'books' as they pleased, without a worry in the world!... and then they say: "it's from God, it's God's word". The Qur'an tells us about this: [2:79]
[3:78]
So... on the Day of Judgement, I believe that we will all be asked about what book we followed, and was it entirely God's authentic Word. MIAW Slightly long again, sorry. Edited by MIAW - 27 February 2018 at 11:23am |
||||||
airmano
Senior Member Joined: 31 March 2014 Status: Offline Points: 884 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||||
So, Allah opened their chest. Seriously, is this the only "proof" you have to offer ? Airmano
Edited by airmano - 02 March 2018 at 8:19am |
||||||
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
|
||||||
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |