What proof is there that Muhammad was a p

airmano wrote: ...OK, but since you kindly asked me I give you my opinion about the situation...

airmano,

Your post is too long (which means that mine will have to be long unfortunately)... some of it fair comment, and some not so fair... and I really did not want this to turn into a 'Current Affairs' debate (wrong forum)... However I shall just touch upon some of your (many) comments.
Anyway, I don't recall asking you for any opinions on this occasion, but you are always welcome to comment with me.

... This is probably because there is no central authority as it is the case in the Roman catholic church.

Correct. We have needed a 'proper' central authority for centuries in my opinion.   

... where is the Muslim outcry to the situation where Christians may be the most persecuted religious group in the world (and especially in Muslim countries, including Aseps) nowadays ? You and your brothers in faith don't seem to be particularly bothered by this subject either.

This is so wrong and unfair (and so typical!). Any Muslim has to (and does) condemn and denounce any attacks on any innocent people of any faith. In fact so much so that military action followed in most cases, example: Egypt.
Now how can you fail to compare this to the complete silence and time-wasting games that the whole (civilised) world is adopting with the Rohingya crisis in Myanmar, where villages are burnt daily (with people still in them), women raped in their hundreds daily, men and boys surrounded and executed on camera (in HD), with hundreds of thousands fleeing for their lives...etc (I could go into more details, but I don't think it's appropriate here). Reason for this massacre and genocide: because they are Muslims. BTW Myanmar is not the only place on Earth where this is happening. The atrocities that we are witnessing are only matched by what the Christian missionaries did when they first set foot on the other side of the Atlantic (there was a brilliant youtube video about this, but I can't find it any more... There's a surprise!).

... The slave system the Muslim established (starting at day zero with Muhammad) was probably worse than the european one has ever been...

I cannot believe that you have the cheek and guts to even mention the word 'slavery'!

With its very limited means at the humble beginnings, Islam started paving the way for abolishing slavery. Christians (and white supremacists in general) enslaved the whole world in a big, horrible way. Islam started by giving slaves rights (when they had no rights elsewhere)... (starting at day zero with Muhammad... to use your own words). And this made Prophet Muhammad even more enemies from amongst the dignitaries of Makka.

Read this

... Even the word "slave" goes back to -you name it- the muslims....

Incorrect again... Look at 'Terminology' Here.

...Worse even: The guy in your link who talks about how smashing Islam is, sits now in a prison in France and is accused of rape by several women. Sounds like a bad start. Moral superiority ?...

I just gave you an example without looking at the video. However your comment made me go and look into this guy (whom I did not know a great deal about), and find out about his case. These are my conclusions:

1) This is a flagrant example of western 'hypocrisy'.
Not: Innocent till proven guilty.
Not even: Guilty till proven innocent.
In this case: GUILTY. PERIOD.

2) this guy's mistake is that he was making too much noise of the wrong kind (i.e defending Islam), at a time when freedom of speech is only for the privileged chosen ones.

3) Very 'dodgy' case. It seems to me that they had to silence him and incarcerate him quickly and indefinitely, and even prevent his wife and kids from contacting him, after a couple of women (?) accused him of sexual assault (years ago... in a hotel room). Whilst Harvey Weinstein and his likes are filmed enjoying high class restaurant meals and parties in total freedom, despite the fact that his list of accusers is quasi endless. hmmm

4) so much for Libert�, �galit�, fraternit�...

...The absence of intellectual, scientific and even moral progress brought by the Muslim world in the last 700 years...

Civilisations take turns in Rising and Falling. It's the nature of things since the beginning of human history. My turn yesterday, your turn today, and sure as Hell it will be someone else's turn tomorrow.

...In essence the famous: Allah gave us the "best religion in the world" but why doesn't he support us [anymore] ?...

Allah gave us the same religion as everyone else before us... and some of us are trying to practice it to the best of our ability... in its pure, unchanged form (unlike those before us).



Qur'an: [23:53]

فَتَقَطَّعُوا أَمْرَهُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ زُبُرًا كُلُّ حِزْبٍ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ فَرِحُونَ
But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself.


Hadith:
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: �Islam began as something strange and will revert to being strange as it began, so give glad tidings to the strangers.�

MIAW


P.S.: Airmano, please make your posts shorter, some of us have a life!







Edited by MIAW - 15 February 2018 at 11:22am

Miaw Your post is too long

Correct, this was an exception. Making my point is difficult in two lines
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Airmano: ... where is the Muslim outcry to the situation where Christians may be the most persecuted religious group in the world (and especially in Muslim countries, including Aseps) nowadays ? Miaw: This is so wrong and unfair (and so typical!).

No, it's not. That you don't hear about it in your country doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The (counter-)examples you give are also questionable -at least.

A) Egypt: I think this is a very bad example but I promised to make it short. (Please ask for more if you want to know).
B) No reaction on the Rohynga tragedy in the west ?

I don't know in which part of the world you live but for sure not in Europe. There have been protest marches in many European countries and all the (serious) newspapers are full of it.
I think I can judge it since I can read (and speak) English, German, French, Italian and Spanish and I read the news from these countries almost every day. If you wish I can send you a long list of links to the respective articles.

Let's do the test: In exchange I would be happy if you could send me some links to renowned newspapers from your country with recent reports on the Christian tragedy (Don't worry about the translation).

Ah and by the way: sieving through some articles on the subject I stumbled over this guy (probably a Pakistani). What do you think about this article he wrote on the subject of the Rohyngas ? I'd guess one can't accuse him of cultural bias.
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Slavery: Please inform yourself before you come up with such statements. A good starting point is this, and when it comes to Muhammad I invite you to read about the destiny of the Banu Qurayza - from non-Muslim sources.
Also interesting to know that the last countries to abolish slavery were Muslim countries - and only after massive pressure from the West.    

Ah, and there is even this high ranked Muslim cleric who considers "Slavery as part of Islam".
Could it be that even Imams do sometimes not grasp "the clear message ?".
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Miaw: I just gave you an example without looking at the video.

That's just the problem. It's not only the video. Checking sources is important! The article you cite in favour of your theory does not at all support your claims !
Or do you want me to think that people that 'hold the ultimate truth' have a rather loose relationship to it ?

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Miaw: However your comment made me go and look into this guy (whom I did not know a great deal about), and find out about his case. These are my conclusions: 1) This is a flagrant example of western 'hypocrisy'. Not: Innocent till proven guilty.

First my wording was explicitly "accused", please read again.
Secondly, he is accused by Muslim women (only). Does this make it more credible to you ?
Thirdly, when it comes to prejudgment: Why do you say "western" and not "your" ?

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Airmano: ...The absence of intellectual, scientific and even moral progress brought by the Muslim world in the last 700 years... Miaw: Civilisations take turns in Rising and Falling. It's the nature of things since the beginning of human history. My turn yesterday, your turn today, and sure as Hell it will be someone else's turn tomorrow.

I can only agree. But why can you (rightly) see it in the case of civilisations but not for the identical pattern where religions do also come and go ? (most often the two are even synchronized)

I'd be very interested in your answer !

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Allah gave us the same religion as everyone else before us

I know the Muslim doctrine.
Does this include the Neanderthal man ? (This is a serious question !)
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To finish: There is absolutely no point in throwing Surahs onto me, it has pretty much the same effect on me as holy water has on you.



A bit long again, I'll try to improve ...:     Airmano

Edited by airmano - 16 February 2018 at 2:43am

Tim the plumber wrote: asep garut wrote: Tim the plumber wrote: asep garut wrote: 2Acts wrote: Hi Asep Can you please tell me what the external factors are ? 2Act, There are some non-Muslims who really don't like the teachings of Islam, so they always try to make Muslims not united. Because according to them, if Muslims unite will win including in knowledge other than religion. Maybe someday there will be other additional factors. When will it be that Moslems start to accept that the reason the Islamic world is not united or in any way leading the world is very little to do with the outside world and all to do with the people in the Islamic world. You Moslems should also note that besides taking responsibility for your own political state the understanding that the West has triumphed not through unity but through disunity. It is our competition with each other at every level that has resulted in this industrial, scientific and cultural conquest of the world. Tim the plumber, In Islam, the unity is very important because it's the command of God, and if it is violated it will complicate the internal Muslims themselves as described in the Qur'an, then if there are differences of opinion but not to cause division, that will result in improvements. but if there are differences of opinion that cause division, then besides it is prohibited by God, it will also result in many difficulties. Invention is the answer to difficulties that need to be over come. The divisions that cause competition and conflict are what drives innovation in the West. That is the cause of the sucess of the West. Not being better at prayer.

Tim the plumber, what you said is true, because Muslims are also commanded to strive for the improvements of his life according to His word, but the difference is that Muslims are forbidden to divide becoming several divisions, it is forbidden by Allah as in His word.

Different opinions are allowed in Islam, but divisive is prohibited.

I agree that we will not change if only by prayer, but it must be accompanied by efforts, as in His word.

airmano wrote: ...Making my point is difficult in two lines

I just don't have time for long posts, so I shall try to be as brief as possible. Besides I don't like these (unfair) 'current affairs' debates, because in order to back up any claim, I only have the sources available out there, i.e. world media made, financed and run by biased, anti-islam, anti-religion, islamophobe, anti-god in general and racist individuals or organizations. So it's 'easy' for you (please... no offence meant against you here) to reach out and find writings and articles that will endorse your ideas and claims, but not for me. However, having said this, I do accept this situation, because history has taught me that 'Truth' always has opponents and enemies, and 'Falsehood' always has supporters, the latter ones being usually more in number. I only have to look at stories of Prophets (Peace Be Upon Them All) for examples of this.

...There have been protest marches in many European countries and all the (serious) newspapers are full of it.

Protest marches are good, but swift action is better. And please don't anyone mention to me the lack of action from 'Muslim countries' that are run by remote-controlled puppets trying to cling to power at all cost (hence all the uprisings) [of course without discrediting the efforts and action of some of them]. The Rohyinga genocide is a human tragedy, Full stop.

... Ah and by the way: sieving through some articles on the subject I stumbled over this guy (probably a Pakistani). What do you think about this article he wrote on the subject of the Rohyngas ? I'd guess one can't accuse him of cultural bias.

Cultural bias? Yes definitely. The guy is a proud 'Atheist' (BTW: is that how you would describe yourself?). From his various articles: He hates Islam, Muslims, Islamic culture, and the idea of 'God'. You really need to understand this: Having a Muslim name does not make one a Muslim. I can give you countless examples of 'enemies from within'. He even rejects the idea that this genocide was carried out for religious reasons.

Slavery: Please inform yourself before you come up with such statements. A good starting point is this

Ok, I have informed myself. From non-Muslim sources. Here are examples of what I found Here:

- Early Islamic dogma forbade enslavement of free members of Islamic society, including non-Muslims (dhimmis), and set out to improve conditions of human bondage.

- Slaves, be they Muslim or those of any other religion, were equal to their fellow practitioners in religious issues.

- Slaves played various social and economic roles, from domestic worker to high-ranking positions in the government like Emir

- the Zanj Rebellion... was an exception rather than the norm, as the vast majority of labor in the medieval Islamic world consisted of free, paid labour.

- The Quran provides for emancipation of a slave as a means of religious atonement for sins.

etc... etc...

You will find that this compares favorably with any other religion, system...etc. Islam came at time when this 'injustice' was practiced 'normally' all over the world. So it had to treat it carefully and delicately in order to 'kick start' its abolition. I am talking about 'Islam' here, not about the actions of individuals or some rulers.
Enough said about 'slavery' don't you think?

... and when it comes to Muhammad I invite you to read about the destiny of the Banu Qurayza - from non-Muslim sources...

Airmano: A word of advice: please change your 'fishing lake'... because you bring too many Red Herrings to this table.

...Secondly, he is accused by Muslim women (only). Does this make it more credible to you ?

Really?! First it was (Atheist) 'Shamil Shams', and now it's (nudity-condoning, liberated from Islam) (J'ai choisi d'�tre libre) Henda Ayari! (from the same pot). Is there no limit to your resourcefulness?

... Thirdly, when it comes to prejudgment: Why do you say "western" and not "your" ?

I hope that you don't think I was referring to you... I meant the judicial system and the media...etc. Apologies if it came across in a wrong way.

... I can only agree. But why can you (rightly) see it in the case of civilisations but not for the identical pattern where religions do also come and go ? (most often the two are even synchronized) I'd be very interested in your answer !

This is more like it... probably the only relevant point worth discussing here. I shall make time for this... soon.

...To finish: There is absolutely no point in throwing Surahs onto me, it has pretty much the same effect on me as holy water has on you.

Point taken, but that was not meant for you.

MIAW

P.S. That's me being brief!...   





Edited by MIAW - 18 February 2018 at 2:29am