Don't take a Jew or a Christian for a fri

@Miaw
Thanks for your open reply.
I particularly appreciate that you manage to maneuver around this rather hostile statement in the Quran in a pragmatic manner.

Just as a mental exercise: How would you feel if the "holy book" of any other religion explicitly stated:

Lo! Don't trust Muslims. They are the misguided ones and [our] God will punish them in eternal hellfire. For we have the only true religion. [Our] God is wise, just and forgiving.


Can you describe your feelings ?


Airmano

Edited by airmano - 28 January 2018 at 12:48pm

airmano wrote: @Miaw ... Just as a mental exercise: How would you feel if the "holy book" of any other religion explicitly stated: Lo! Don't trust Muslims. They are the misguided ones and [our] God will punish them in eternal hellfire. For we have the only true religion. [Our] God is wise, just and forgiving. Can you describe your feelings ? Airmano

Greetings airmano,

Here are my feelings:

Short answer: I would look very, very seriously and closely into that claim, study the evidence, and if satisfied: I would convert immediately. Because I would not want to spend one second in Hellfire, let alone eternity (even more so if Hellfire is described in some detail as it is in the Qur�an).

Long(ish) answer: The hypothesis (claim) that you�ve written does not make any sense in my beliefs. Allow me to explain:

There is only one god. I call Him Allah.
Allah Has Created us and Put us on this Earth. He Has Given us a set of rules and commands to live by and instructions to follow� namely: Religion.

Now�

Allah Has sent us many prophets and messengers (Peace and Blessings Upon them All) to teach us his religion.
Different prophets� but only One Religion every time (which is quite understandable, because why would the same god send different religions?).

What is this religion called? Islam (which means: Submission to God�s Will).
All of Allah�s prophets and messengers brought us the same religion since the beginning of time: Islam.

The Qur�an tells us this. Here are some examples:


Prophets Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob (Yaqoob)
[2:127]

{127} وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ الْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَاعِيلُ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلْ مِنَّا إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ
And remember Ibrahim and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: for Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.
{128} رَبَّنَا وَاجْعَلْنَا مُسْلِمَيْنِ لَكَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِنَا أُمَّةً مُسْلِمَةً لَكَ وَأَرِنَا مَنَاسِكَنَا وَتُبْ عَلَيْنَا إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ
"Our Lord! Make of us Muslims bowing to Thy (Will); and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (Will); and show us our places for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
{129} رَبَّنَا وَابْعَثْ فِيهِمْ رَسُولًا مِنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ
"Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, and sanctify them: for Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
{130} وَمَنْ يَرْغَبُ عَنْ مِلَّةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ إِلَّا مَنْ سَفِهَ نَفْسَهُ وَلَقَدِ اصْطَفَيْنَاهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَإِنَّهُ فِي الْآخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ
And who turns away from the religion of Ibrahim but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
{131} إِذْ قَالَ لَهُ رَبُّهُ أَسْلِمْ قَالَ أَسْلَمْتُ لِرَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" he said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
{132} وَوَصَّى بِهَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بَنِيهِ وَيَعْقُوبُ يَا بَنِيَّ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَى لَكُمُ الدِّينَ فَلَا تَمُوتُنَّ إِلَّا وَأَنْتُمْ مُسْلِمُونَ
And this was the Legacy that Ibrahim left to his sons, and so did Ya'qub; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Allah).
{133} أَمْ كُنْتُمْ شُهَدَاءَ إِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوبَ الْمَوْتُ إِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيهِ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِنْ بَعْدِي قَالُوا نَعْبُدُ إِلَهَكَ وَإِلَهَ آبَائِكَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ إِلَهًا وَاحِدًا وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ
Were ye witnesses when Death appeared before Ya'qub? Behold he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathers, - of Ibrahim, Isma'il and Ishaq, - the One (True) God: to Him we bow (in Islam)."


[22:78]

{78} وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَى وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Ibrahim. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation) ; that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector, the best to protect and the Best to help!

[3:65]
{65} يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لِمَ تُحَاجُّونَ فِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَتِ التَّوْرَاةُ وَالْإِنْجِيلُ إِلَّا مِنْ بَعْدِهِ أَفَلَا تَعْقِلُونَ
Ye People of the Book! why dispute ye about Ibrahim, when the Law and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye no understanding?
{66} هَا أَنْتُمْ هَؤُلَاءِ حَاجَجْتُمْ فِيمَا لَكُمْ بِهِ عِلْمٌ فَلِمَ تُحَاجُّونَ فِيمَا لَيْسَ لَكُمْ بِهِ عِلْمٌ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
Ah! ye are those who fell to disputing (even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!
{67} مَا كَانَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ يَهُودِيًّا وَلَا نَصْرَانِيًّا وَلَكِنْ كَانَ حَنِيفًا مُسْلِمًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

(note: Unlike this translation, the Arabic Quranic text actually uses the term �Muslim�)


[6:163]
{163} لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ وَبِذَلِكَ أُمِرْتُ وَأَنَا أَوَّلُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ
"No partner hath He: this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His Will."

(note: Unlike this translation, the Arabic Quranic text actually uses the term �Muslim�)



Prophet Moses:
[10:84]

{84} وَقَالَ مُوسَى يَا قَوْمِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ آمَنْتُمْ بِاللَّهِ فَعَلَيْهِ تَوَكَّلُوا إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُسْلِمِينَ
Musa said: "O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye submit (your will to His)."

(note: Unlike this translation, the Arabic Quranic text actually uses the term �Muslims�)


Prophet Solomon:

[27:31]

{31} أَلَّا تَعْلُوا عَلَيَّ وَأْتُونِي مُسْلِمِينَ
"`Be ye not arrogant against me, but come to me in submission (to the true Religion).'"

(note: Unlike this translation, the Arabic Quranic text actually uses the term �Muslims�)


[27:42]

{42} فَلَمَّا جَاءَتْ قِيلَ أَهَكَذَا عَرْشُكِ قَالَتْ كَأَنَّهُ هُوَ وَأُوتِينَا الْعِلْمَ مِنْ قَبْلِهَا وَكُنَّا مُسْلِمِينَ
So when she arrived, she was asked, "Is this thy throne?" She said, "It was just like this; and knowledge was bestowed on us in advance of this, and we have submitted to Allah (in Islam)."


[27:44]
{44} قِيلَ لَهَا ادْخُلِي الصَّرْحَ فَلَمَّا رَأَتْهُ حَسِبَتْهُ لُجَّةً وَكَشَفَتْ عَنْ سَاقَيْهَا قَالَ إِنَّهُ صَرْحٌ مُمَرَّدٌ مِنْ قَوَارِيرَ قَالَتْ رَبِّ إِنِّي ظَلَمْتُ نَفْسِي وَأَسْلَمْتُ مَعَ سُلَيْمَانَ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
She was asked to enter the lofty Palace: but when she saw it, she thought it was a lake of water, and she (tucked up her skirts), uncovering her legs. He said: "This is but a palace paved smooth with slabs of glass." She said: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul: I do (now) submit (in Islam), with Sulaiman, to the Lord of the Worlds."

Christian priests (envoys to Prophet Muhammad)
[28:53]

{53} وَإِذَا يُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ قَالُوا آمَنَّا بِهِ إِنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا مِنْ قَبْلِهِ مُسْلِمِينَ
And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe therein, for it is the Truth from our Lord: indeed we have been Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will) from before this."



[3:19]

{19} إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْعِلْمُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ
The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): nor did the people of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.



[3:85]

{85} وَمَنْ يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الْإِسْلَامِ دِينًا فَلَنْ يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).




Prophet Joseph:
[12:101]
{101} رَبِّ قَدْ آتَيْتَنِي مِنَ الْمُلْكِ وَعَلَّمْتَنِي مِنْ تَأْوِيلِ الْأَحَادِيثِ فَاطِرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ أَنْتَ وَلِيِّي فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ تَوَفَّنِي مُسْلِمًا وَأَلْحِقْنِي بِالصَّالِحِينَ
"O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of dreams and events, O Thou creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy Will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous."


Prophet Noah:
[10:72}
{72} فَإِنْ تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَمَا سَأَلْتُكُمْ مِنْ أَجْرٍ إِنْ أَجْرِيَ إِلَّا عَلَى اللَّهِ وَأُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ
"But if ye turn back, (consider): no reward have I asked of you: my reward is only due from Allah and I have been commanded to be of those who submit to Allah's Will (in Islam)."


Prophet Lot (Lut):

[51:36]

{36} فَمَا وَجَدْنَا فِيهَا غَيْرَ بَيْتٍ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ
But We found not there any just (Muslim) persons except in one house:


And the list goes on...



So you see� that is what has been happening throughout the history of mankind: Allah sends a prophet to people with guidance and religion (i.e. to show them Allah�s will). Some (people) will heed the message and answer to the call: those automatically become �Muslims� because they have submitted to the Will of God� Others will oppose, disobey and choose arrogance (in fact some have even killed the messengers and prophets of Allah); they will change and tamper with the message that they were entrusted with (to suit their whims and worldly gain). Eventually, Allah�s message will be neglected and forgotten, and people will go astray�

Every time people go astray from Allah�s religion, He sends another prophet to remind them of the same message� and so on�

Therefore (going back to your question above), it does not make sense, because the recipients/obedients of that message are �Muslims� themselves.

Now� I have a small question/mental exercise for you airmano:

The same God has sent us the same message repeatedly. However, He Decided to protect the Qur�an from tampering and altering, but not the earlier messages (Bible, Torah�etc). Do you know why?

MIAW







    

Edited by MIAW - 02 February 2018 at 10:33pm

Following up to my last post...
By the grace of God and His guiding hand only, I have found my prior research on this matter and I here present it to you.

Narrated by 'Umar bin Al-Khattab

    I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle): "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)."
sahih-bukhari, Vol. 6, book 61, number 514

What do you say about these;

 "Ubayy entered the mosque and, hearing a man recite, asked him who had instructed him. The man replied that he had been taught by the Prophet. Ubayy went in search of the Prophet. When the man recited. Muhammad said, 'That is correct.' Ubayy protested, 'But you taught me to recite so-and-so,' The Prophet said that Ubayy was right too. 'Right? right?' burst out Ubayy in perplexity. The Prophet struck him on the chest and prayed, 'O Allah! cause doubt to depart.' Ubayy broke into a sweat as his heart filled with terror. Muhammad disclosed that two angels had come to him. One said, 'Recite the Qur'an in one form.' The other advised Muhammad to ask for more than this. That was repeated several times until finally the first angel said. 'Very well. Recite it in seven forms.' The Prophet said, 'Each of the forms is grace-giving, protecting, so long as you don't terminate a punishment verse with an expression of mercy, or vice-versa - as you might for example say, Let's go; or, let's be off.' " (Tafsir of Tabari.).

"A man complained to the Prophet, Abdullah taught me to recite a Sura of the Qur'an. Zaid taught me the same Sura and so too did Ubayy. The readings of all three differ. Whose reading ought I to adopt?' Muhammad remained silent. Ali who was at his side replied, 'Every man should recite as he was taught. Each of the readings is acceptable, valid.' " (Tafsir of Tabari).

"Umar said, I heard Hisam b. Hukaim reciting Surat al Furqan and listened to his recital. On observing that he was reading many forms which the Prophet had not taught me, I all but rushed upon him as he prayed. But I waited patiently as he continued, and, collaring him when he had finished, I asked him, 'Who taught you to recite this Sura?' He claimed that the Prophet had taught him. I said, 'By God! you're lying!' I dragged him to the Prophet telling him that I had heard Hisam recite many forms he had not taught me. The Prophet said, 'Let him go. Recite, Hisam.' He recited the reading I had already heard from him. The Prophet said, 'That is how it was revealed.' He then said, 'Recite, Umar', and I recited what he had taught me. He said, 'That's right. That is how it was revealed. This Qur'an was revealed in seven forms, so recite what is easiest.' "(Tafsir of Tabari). (See also Mishkat vol.III pp. 702-705). Also, Al Baizawi (in his commentary on Suras 3:100, 6:91, 19:35, 28:48, 33:6, 34:18, 38:22, etc.) suggests variations extant in his time. (Mizanu'l Haqq, page 261).


"Umar bin Al-Khattab and Hisham bin Hakim were from the same tribe, therefore, this difference was not just a matter of dialect. Muslim leaders are exaggerating when they say there is only one version of the Qur'an. From the very beginning there were several versions. "


Edited by Caringheart - 31 January 2018 at 6:36pm

MIAW wrote: Greetings Caringheart, You have raised various interesting points. Thank you. I shall discuss them in due time. However� I shall start with point 3 above, because, by quoting the above verse from the Qur�an, you have unwittingly yelled: �Islam is the only TRUE religion, and the Qur�an is the only message/book that has not been corrupted and changed�! How is that? (I hear you ask) Please allow me explain the verse in easy terms: [10:94] And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee The Verse is saying: � And if You (O� Muhammad!) are in any doubt about anything that We (Allah) Are Revealing to you (i.e. Islam, This Qur�an, The commands, The practices, The stories� anything whatsoever that You are receiving from Us), then go ask and check the books (Scriptures that We Have Sent Before� i.e. the Bible, Torah�etc). What You will (and should) find is the EXACT SAME message, same commands and practices, stories� In fact, You will find a �confirmation� of this Message. And this Qur�an is a �confirmation� of earlier Messages and Religions�. This is very easy to understand and accept in my opinion: Because you would expect the same God to send the SAME MESSAGE, and not different messages. I find this obvious. However� If Prophet Muhammad PBUH (or any other person) goes and checks any Biblical Scriptures that we have today (i.e. not the very original ones that were not changed and tampered with), what would they find? Answer: They would find a very DIFFERENT MESSAGE from the Qur�an. They would find that God (Allah) now Has a Son!... Religious practices (Praying, fasting�etc) have been �adjusted� and are now different� Wine is now part of Religious Services in places of worship�etc�etc. In other words: Do you really think that God would Challenge His Prophet to go and confirm His Message, Knowing that he would find major differences? Think about this. The Qur�anic verse that you have quoted above tells us that: -     There only One God. -     He has Sent us many prophets and Messengers, but with the Same Message (Religion) -     Any other Message that is different� is not God's (i.e. it�s been changed by men) MIAW

Greetings and blessings to you MIAW,

this word of Muhammad's comes directly from the Biblical scriptures, from the Acts of the Apostles.

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Jesus Himself proclaimed:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

and the Jews were shown to be wrong, when the truth was revealed, on the day of Yshwe's(known to the Greeks, the gentiles, as Jesus) resurrection.

Yshwe always spoke of God as His Father.

further;

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

fruit of the vine - wine - red in the cup, as blood

Nothing has changed.  All is done according to, and as Yshwe did with His own Disciples.

You really must study and know the things Yshwe said and did...
but Muhammad denies and prevents all muslims from knowing Yshwe and His Word.

You are blessed to live in a time when you can access the words of Isa.
Also from the scriptures, from the prophet Daniel:

⁴ But thou, O Daniel, [keep silent] the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

air travel, satellite, and the internet have allowed people to 'run to and fro', gathering knowledge.

Also the words of Yshwe to the Disciples that were with Him:

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

¹² And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Christians are being afflicted all across the world.  Many muslims are feeling 'offended'.  Neighbors betray one another and are taught hate for one another.  Iniquity abounds.  AND, the Gospel of the kingdom of God (i.e., the Word of Yshwe) is becoming available in places all over the world.

asalaam alaykum,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 01 February 2018 at 12:45pm