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Don't take a Jew or a Christian for a fri

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asep garut View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asep garut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 January 2018 at 10:22pm

Dear Carringheart,

Perhaps what you claim is because you see some Muslims behavior today, for example radicalism, Though the Prophet Muhammad never told his followers to behave like that.

Narrated by Bukhari and Muslim:

"Whoever believes in Allah and the Hereafter, do not harm his neighbor, and whoever believes in Allah and the Hereafter, honor his neighbors, and whoever believes in Allah and the Hereafter, speak good words or be quiet. "

Narrated by Muslim:

"It is not a believer if he likes to denounce, curse, talk vile and talk dirty."

Such hadiths have similar meaning to the word of Allah in Qur'an 3:159 and 60:8 etc.

Therefore, Allah commands to be an Islamic as a whole as in His word (not partially).

Especially in connection with the hadiths, not all of the current hadiths must be followed (it must be selected first about the truth), because there are so many hadiths scattered on this earth made by those who are not responsible who deliberately want to undermine the teachings of Islam and dropped the good name of the Prophet Muhammad.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikePG7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2018 at 2:40am
Those are nice sentiments, but it's impossible to look at Islam in the round without also examining specific passages of the Quran. I'm not talking about the Hadiths at all. Perhaps Mohammed was just having a bad day when he was firing off at Jews and Christians. If so, why not just delete that passage? After all, the Bible is heavily edited too.
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Caringheart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2018 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by asep garut asep garut wrote:

Dear Carringheart,

Perhaps what you claim is because you see some Muslims behavior today, for example radicalism, Though the Prophet Muhammad never told his followers to behave like that.

Narrated by Bukhari and Muslim:

"Whoever believes in Allah and the Hereafter, do not harm his neighbor, and whoever believes in Allah and the Hereafter, honor his neighbors, and whoever believes in Allah and the Hereafter, speak good words or be quiet. "

Narrated by Muslim:

"It is not a believer if he likes to denounce, curse, talk vile and talk dirty."

Such hadiths have similar meaning to the word of Allah in Qur'an 3:159 and 60:8 etc.

Therefore, Allah commands to be an Islamic as a whole as in His word (not partially).

Especially in connection with the hadiths, not all of the current hadiths must be followed (it must be selected first about the truth), because there are so many hadiths scattered on this earth made by those who are not responsible who deliberately want to undermine the teachings of Islam and dropped the good name of the Prophet Muhammad.


Greetings asep garut,
My impressions and conclusions come directly from reading the qur'an.
I understand that there were good leaders who took only the best of what Muhammad taught.  The trouble with Muhammad's message is that it is convoluted, it is conflicting with its own self.  His message changed according to whatever was happening at the time.

Here is an example right here:
60:9 Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong- doers.

It essentially is saying that anyone that does not agree with your religion (anyone that has fought against, or refused to accept it), you can not be friends with them.  It denies people the free-will to choose their destiny... to choose whom they can trust and be friends with.

Obviously anyone who declared war against you for any reason you would not consider a friend... that would go without saying,

but Muhammad is making a point here about not taking friends of anyone who does not share your religion, and that is a clear denial of people as individuals with their own free will to be good and trustworthy people or not, of which there exists both in any religion, in any culture, in any part of the world.

Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 05 January 2018 at 9:35pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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airmano View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2018 at 10:44am
@Asep

You're the first Muslim I see who puts the Hadiths above the Quran !?

Isn't the Quran considered as the direct word of God in Islam ?
How come that Muhammad's personal opinion should weigh more than God's word ?

Can you explain ?


Airmano


Edited by airmano - 07 January 2018 at 4:20am
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HyderM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2018 at 7:11am
Dear MikePG7,
I guess the idea was probably to dispel disunity in times of crisis, I obviously don't claim to understand everything, only God has the entirety of knowledge and wisdom.

Edited by HyderM - 07 January 2018 at 7:13am
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MIAW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2018 at 12:27am
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:


[60:9] Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong- doers.It essentially is saying that anyone that does not agree with your religion (anyone that has fought against, or refused to accept it), you can not be friends with them.� It denies people the free-will to choose their destiny...


Hi Caringheart,

I hope you don't mind me joining this discussion, because I have noticed that you are contradicting yourself above:

The verse clearly says:

only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out

And I stress on: only

However you interpret it as:

anyone that does not agree with your religion...refused to accept it

Surely your interpretation is incorrect isn't it?

Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:


...It denies people the free-will to choose their destiny...


Well... would you take as a friend someone who you definitely know has waged war against you on any account and has driven you out from your home? because I certainly wouldn't.

So clearly the verse is only stating the "Obvious" here...wouldn't you say?

[P.S. I know that you corrected yourself in the next line, but your post still contradicts itself in my opinion.]

Peace,
MIAW




Edited by MIAW - 22 January 2018 at 10:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 January 2018 at 1:41pm
@Miaw

When you look at the verse which started the thread (5:51) it (still) goes:

Believers, do not consider the Jews and Christians as your intimate friends for they are only friends with each other. Whoever does so will be considered as one of them. God does not guide the unjust people.

Is this now finally a clear instruction or not ?
How do you handle/interpret the situation ?


Airmano
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2018 at 11:37am
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

@Miaw

When you look at the verse which started the thread (5:51) it (still) goes:

Believers, do not consider the Jews and Christians as your intimate friends for they are only friends with each other. Whoever does so will be considered as one of them. God does not guide the unjust people.

Is this now finally a clear instruction or not ?
How do you handle/interpret the situation ?


Airmano


@Airmano,

Yes I agree with you, but I would like you to understand that this is not confined and restricted to only "Jews and Christians".

You see... to a Muslim, the dearest thing he/she has is their faith (their God, their prophet, their religion...etc). They must not get into any situation where their faith might be in danger/jeopardy (i.e. compromised).

A Muslim is instructed to protect his/her faith, even from those who are closest to them:

[58:22]

لَا تَجِدُ قَوْمًا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ يُوَادُّونَ مَنْ حَادَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلَوْ كَانُوا آبَاءَهُمْ أَوْ أَبْنَاءَهُمْ أَوْ إِخْوَانَهُمْ أَوْ عَشِيرَتَهُمْ أُولَئِكَ كَتَبَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمُ الْإِيمَانَ وَأَيَّدَهُمْ بِرُوحٍ مِنْهُ وَيُدْخِلُهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ أُولَئِكَ حِزْبُ اللَّهِ أَلَا إِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ


Sahih International: You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred. Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him. And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally. Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him - those are the party of Allah. Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful.

Pickthall: Thou wilt not find folk who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those who oppose Allah and His messenger, even though they be their fathers or their sons or their brethren or their clan. As for such, He hath written faith upon their hearts and hath strengthened them with a Spirit from Him, and He will bring them into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide. Allah is well pleased with them, and they are well pleased with Him. They are Allah's party. Lo! is it not Allah's party who are the successful?

Yusuf Ali: Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity.

Shakir: You shall not find a people who believe in Allah and the latter day befriending those who act in opposition to Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their (own) fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kinsfolk; these are they into whose hearts He has impressed faith, and whom He has strengthened with an inspiration from Him: and He will cause them to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein; Allah is well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him these are Allah's party: now surely the party of Allah are the successful ones.

Muhammad Sarwar: You will not find any people of faith in God and the Day of Judgment who would establish friendship with those who oppose God and His Messenger, even if it would be in the interest of their fathers, sons, brothers, and kinsmen. God has established faith in their hearts and supported them by a Spirit from Himself. He will admit them to Paradise wherein streams flow to live therein forever. God is pleased with them and they are pleased with God. These are members of the party of God and the party of God will certainly have everlasting happiness.

Mohsin Khan: You (O Muhammad SAW) will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW ), even though they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Ruh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And We will admit them to Gardens (Paradise) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Verily, it is the Party of Allah that will be the successful.



At the end of the day, you live a short life (70-80 years more or less), and then you leave this life with only your faith and your deeds (you do not take your money, possessions, friends, relatives...etc). What should one say to his Host (Allah) when he then meets Him? "Oh sorry, I have no faith (in you)"?

I hope this explains why our faith is so important to us, and hence the verses above.

Having said all this, I have many non-Muslim colleagues, neighbours, acquaintances...etc. I am good to them (because Islam instructs/encourages me to be), and they are good to me. We have a good laugh (and other conversations) all the time. We have mutual trust, for example they often ask me to look after their home/possessions/cat when they go on holiday...etc. In fact, some of them think that I am one of the best things since sliced bread! LOL

Prophet Muhammad PBUH said: �Be mindful of Allah wherever you are, follow a bad deed with a good deed and it will erase it, and behave with good character toward people.�

behave with good character toward people means: Treat people well, any people, regardless of their faith, age, colour, background...etc.

And there are many other Hadith about being kind towards your neighbours and treating them well regardless of their faith...etc:

http://aboutislam.net/reading-islam/about-muhammad/the-prophets-strong-words-on-kindness-to-neighbors/

(If this link doesn't work, then just copy it and paste it in Google)

MIAW




Edited by MIAW - 27 January 2018 at 10:41pm
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