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The origins of islam
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mercury View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 November 2017 at 1:18am
I have a scholarly interest in the origins of Islam. This is my question. I read somewhere that the Prophet drank a drink, called the Espand in Persian, right before he spoke the Koran. What I want to know is this. Is this common knowledge among Muslims? And what would an Islamic Scholar say about this? Or, on the other hand, have I gone wrong in my understanding of this matter? 

Edited by mercury - 15 November 2017 at 1:44am
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semar View Drop Down
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Salam/peace

Even though he left on a society that consume alcohol a lot, he never drink alcohol. Not even once.
Salam/Peace,

Semar

"We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH)

"1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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Whether the prophet drank alcohol or not is uncertain.

It is however established that he got more and more "anti-booze" during his career.
There are even verses like 4:43 in the Quran which express a rather tolerant view in this respect.
The proscription came later after Allah had obviously changed his mind (again) and tightened his view.

Airmano

Edited by airmano - 26 November 2017 at 12:32am
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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The Companions of Rasool Allah (SallAllahu Alaihi Wassallam) did drink alcohol but immediately left after the prohibition was revealed in the Quran.

The Prophet (SallAllahu alaihi Wassallam) never drank during his lifetime.
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@adyigbal
Quote Please correct yourself.

I used the term "unclear" in my post, in other terms I left an explicit doubt about it.
I guess you would however agree with me that he was more relaxed about having a drink at the beginning of his career than later on.

Not much is known about Mohamed before he got badly shaken by Gabriel, nor did anybody (including himself) consider him as being a 'prophet' till then. In other words: He had absolutely no 'objective' reasons to abstain till Gabriel told him otherwise.
Historical sources (as well as your Muslim friends) support the idea that he grew up in an environment where hardly anybody spat on a good drink, so I consider it as highly likely that he gave it at least a try at a given moment.

Ah, and I'm sure that you know 16:67, Translation Mohsin Khan:
And from the fruits of date-palms and grapes, you derive strong drink (this was before the order of the prohibition of the alcoholic drinks) and a goodly provision. Verily, therein is indeed a sign for people who have wisdom.

In clear terms at a given moment he even called alcoholic beverages "a good provision" and "strong drinks" a good sign (from Allah).
So, why should somebody (i.e. your prophet) who had such a positive opinion about alcoholic drinks (even recommended by Allah !) not indulge on a glass or two?

BTW.: That Allah changed his mind later doesn't bode well for an entity venerated as "omniscient" (Didn't God know before or was He even deliberately lying for 'strategic reasons' ?).
Sure, that's another problem...


Now, do you have any supporting facts for your claim ?


Airmano   

Edited by airmano - 07 December 2017 at 7:14am
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Airmano,

One thing should be clear that the Prophet (salLAllahu Alaihi Wassallam) did not drink alcohol even before his prophet hood. The details of his life are thoroughly available and if he ever did drink or habitually drank then we would have at least some evidence available for it.

If there was indeed some evidence available then orientals may have definitely penned it and people like yourself would be posting it immediately. But there is none and your post is a good example of a speculation about this matter.

Now we should know a fact about the revelation that the Prophet (SallAllahu Alaihi Wassallam) prohibited alcohol after emigration to Madinah. All verses pertaining to the prohibition of alcohol were revealed in Madinah.

The Prophet (SallAllahu alaihi Wassallam) preached Islam for 10 years in Makkah and he was even offered alcohol by Gibraeel (Alaihi Salaam) in Makkah on the Night of Isra Wa'al Mir'aj (Night Journey and Ascension):

......there were brought to him two gold vessels. There was milk in one, while the other was full of wine. He was asked to choose either of them, so he selected the vessel containing milk and drank it. He (the angel) said: �You have been guided on Al-Fitrah or you have attained Al-Fitrah. Had you selected wine, your nation would have been misled.� [It is a symbolic way of saying that good and evil in the form of milk and wine were brought before the Prophet and he instinctively made a choice for the good. It is very difficult to render the Arabic term �Fitrah� into English. It denotes the original constitution or disposition, with which a child comes into this world, as contrasted with qualities or inclinations acquired during life; besides it refers to the spiritual inclination inherent in man in his unspoilt state]. (Al Raheeq Al Maktum - The Sealed Nectar]


Contrary to your speculation the above is evidence of Prophet being offered Alcohol and declining it.



Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:


Ah, and I'm sure that you know 16:67, Translation Mohsin Khan:
And from the fruits of date-palms and grapes, you derive strong drink (this was before the order of the prohibition of the alcoholic drinks) and a goodly provision. Verily, therein is indeed a sign for people who have wisdom.

In clear terms at a given moment he even called alcoholic beverages "a good provision" and "strong drinks" a good sign (from Allah).
So, why should somebody (i.e. your prophet) who had such a positive opinion about alcoholic drinks (even recommended by Allah !) not indulge on a glass or two?

That Allah changed his mind later doesn't bode well for an entity venerated as "omniscient" (Didn't God know before or was He even deliberately lying for 'strategic reasons' ?).
Sure, that's another problem...



Interesting. You took the English translation and understood in purely English terms while you know Quran is originally in Arabic. So let me share another English translation and the Arabic words with it so we can understand better:

16:67
And [We grant you nourishment] from the fruit of date-palms and vines: from it you derive intoxicants (Sakar) as well as wholesome sustenance (Rizq Hasan) - in this, behold, there is a message indeed for people who use their reason

So the term in Muhsin Khan translation refers to Sakar as 'Strong Drink' while actually Sakar does NOT only mean 'strong drink' it can also mean Intoxicants. You cannot translate Arabic words and give final meanings to them even though when they have different shades of meanings.

Now even though the 16:67 verse was revealed in Makkah and 10 years before the complete prohibition of Alcohol in Madinah (Al Quran 5:90-91) yet Allah (swt) mentioning these 2 terms Sakar (strong drink or intoxicants) and Rizq Hasan (good provision or wholesome sustenance) separately clarifies that Omniscient Allah never 'changed His mind'. In fact He contrasted these 2 terms earlier back then when mentioning wine, so that it circumscribes both Negative and Positive properties of this matter in the minds of the reader. In fact what Allah (swt) did was, He was preparing the minds step by step for a later complete Prohibition of this substance. Therefore the moral condemnation of this substance in the word Sakar is very clear.

Therefore understanding Quran purely in English will misguide you.

A reminder of the 16:67 rule that alcohol substance has positive and negative properties was revealed later in Madinah in Surah Baqara Verse 2:219:

2:219
THEY WILL ASK thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring.




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@Sayed
You're not off the hook.
Reading my posts you must have seen that by no means I disagreed that he was strongly anti-alcohol at a later stage. So your examples from the later years do not bring any new insight.

Your translation of 16:67:
"And [We grant you nourishment] from the fruit of date-palms and vines: from it you derive intoxicants (Sakar) as well as wholesome sustenance (Rizq Hasan) - in this, behold, there is a message indeed for people who use their reason "
does not make it any better. Would you know of any other "intoxicant" besides alcohol which one can derive from date palms and vines? Admittedly I do not speak any Arabic (do you ?) but there are very good translators (I prefer corpus.quran.com/) which give all the aspects of a given word/sentence.

As you certainly also know there are more surahs of this kind, with "rivers of wine" in paradise (83:25:3 and 47:15) "rivers of wine delicious to those who drink". The usual muslim conclusion on this is, that paradise-wine must be non alcoholic.
What a joke ! - you'd call this "grape juice" but definitely not wine.

BTW.: It is of course a known rhetorical trick to use the non-knowledge of Arabic as an argument to discredit the ones who criticize the striking inconsistencies of the Quran.
It is however a fact that Arabic -as any language - evolves. So even native Arabs -and scholars- are often not capable of grasping the original meaning of the Quran (anymore).

---------------------------------------------------

When you say:
"The details of his life are thoroughly available and if he ever did drink or habitually drank then we would have at least some evidence available for it. "
Does this also include the period before his "prophethood" which I explicitly referred to ? I doubt it - but I am willing to learn otherwise. So, once again: Would you have any references ?

---------------------------------------------------

I also don't accept your argument "In fact what Allah (swt) did was, He was preparing the minds step by step for a later complete Prohibition of this substance."

Either Allah tells the truth or he doesn't, period.
Calling something "good" at a given moment (knowing that it is bad) with the idea to change it into "bad" later, still means that Allah has deliberately not told the truth, when he called it "good" in the first place -even if (as I already mentioned), he did it for strategic reasons in order to lure people into his religion as you try to insinuate. IMHO it is outright naive to assume that an almighty god needs to resort to this kind of cheap psychological tricks.


So yes, in moral terms we still call this lying *). May be we can compromise by concluding that Allah must be a "strategic liar".



Airmano


*)Wikipedia: Lies may be employed to serve a variety of instrumental, interpersonal, or psychological functions for the individuals who use them. "

Here, Allah's lie would obviously be of "instrumental" nature.

Edited by airmano - 14 December 2017 at 7:33am
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
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Points: 492 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIAW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2018 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:



Quote ... I guess you would however agree with me that he was more relaxed about having a drink at the beginning of his career than later on.


Some people are so focused on trying to find faults with The Messenger (Prophet Muhammad PBUH), that they miss the very important Message that he brought for them. Sad really...

airmano,

he was more relaxed about having a drink: What concrete evidence do you have about this claim? or is it just a guess and an opinion? I can tell you that young Prophet Muhammad PBUH was more interested in searching for answers, reflecting, contemplating (just like many people in this day and age)... than hanging out with some of the degenerate youth of Quraish, he was known for being wise, kind, thoughtful and trustworthy... by friend and foe.
Quote ...He had absolutely no 'objective' reasons to abstain till Gabriel told him otherwise.
Historical sources (as well as your Muslim friends) support the idea that he grew up in an environment where hardly anybody spat on a good drink...

There are many harmful and intoxicating substances widespread in our society, but I know many people who 'abstain' from even giving them a try (and not even for any religious reasons)! so why is this inconceivable in his case?

Quote ... so I consider it as highly likely that he gave it at least a try at a given moment...

I am sure you would like to believe that, because it would 'belittle' the man and make him into 'nothing special'. Again: No evidence.

Quote Ah, and I'm sure that you know 16:67, Translation Mohsin Khan:
And from the fruits of date-palms and grapes, you derive strong drink (this was before the order of the prohibition of the alcoholic drinks) and a goodly provision. Verily, therein is indeed a sign for people who have wisdom.

In clear terms at a given moment he even called alcoholic beverages "a good provision" and "strong drinks" a good sign (from Allah).
So, why should somebody (i.e. your prophet) who had such a positive opinion about alcoholic drinks (even recommended by Allah !) not indulge on a glass or two?...

Let me help you with this, because you seem confused by this verse:

This verse talks about TWO things (TWO distinct, different things): strong drink and a goodly provision

meaning: Strong drink = Alcohol = Not good
        goodly provision = Good
        Also: the verse says: "Sign" not "Good sign"

So how did you conclude from the verse that you yourself have quoted:
- he even called alcoholic beverages "a good provision"
- "strong drinks" a good sign (from Allah)

As for the Prophet PBUH having "had such a positive opinion about alcoholic drinks"... Funny joke

But not as funny as:

Quote BTW.: That Allah changed his mind later doesn't bode well for an entity venerated as "omniscient" (Didn't God know before or was He even deliberately lying for 'strategic reasons' ?).
Sure, that's another problem...



A quick example springs to mind: Think of it like Brexit if you may: After the results of the vote, you wouldn't expect Britain to be out of Europe overnight. It will take at least 2 years to prepare (institutions, industries, people...etc) for this huge transition.

Allah prohibited alcohol, but not suddenly. Rather he prepared the atmosphere for the people to accept this prohibition and implement it more readily. You could say the prohibition came gradually, but you have to be careful using this word: "gradually", because it could be easily misinterpreted.

Click the link below:

http://islamicrevival.proboards.com/thread/242


MIAW

Edited by MIAW - 24 January 2018 at 6:47am
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