7 Earths in the Qur'an, and recently discovered

Tim the plumber wrote: errrrrrr.....I say again;They have discovered 7 planets that are good candidates for life similar to here on earth. That is the right distance from their star and the right sort of size.They have not discovered if they have flowing water on them.If and when they doscover many many more such planets with conditions that make them sort of earth like a bit what happens to this idea?We do know of large bodies of liquid water within the solar system outside the earth. Europa has a vast ocean beneath it's ice surface. For example.

They have only made obvervations so far, obviously. The criteria for a planet to be able to have flowing water, is identical to ours. Meaning; all of the things a planet needs to have in order to have flowing water, those new planets have.

Conditions for flowing water:

1. Right size [CHECK!]
2. Right mass [CHECK!]
3. Right distance from their sun [CHECK!]

With those conditions in-check, and with the additional observations, it is safe to say that there's, without any doubt, flowing water. Which is what the scientists assume, that's why they classify it as "Earth-like" in the first place, you see.

So, what happens when more "Earth-like" planets are found? What I said before; then it seems that the correct interpretation of that verse was "the like thereof [no specific number]", which I already spoke about. Because, I already declared that there were 3 (I think it was three if I remember it correctly, refer back) ways of interpreting that verse, if you know the Arabic language. All of the three could be correct linguistically. But, we don't know which of the three ways of looking at that verse IS correct, you see? Just what I already said before.


You said:

"Europa has a vast ocean beneath it's ice surface. For example."

What? Europa? You mean Europe? Uhm... Europe is on Earth, you know that right? Why is it relevant to speak about that? And if you're talking about some kind of planet out there, then alright, but I said flowing water. Frozen water doesn't count (because it's not floooowing), because the moon has that, and I've pointed that out already, and ruled that one out. Refer back. And if a planet or a "body" has water, that's one thing. It still needs earth, for it be "Earth-like".

@Al Ghuraba

Ouh, touched a nerve ?

Well, let's have a look at your statements. Funny list of scientists you come up with:
Moore never became a Muslim (but probably accepted money from Saudi Arabia for his statements)
Jeffry Lang is a mathematician. That's laudable. So what ?
Mr Brown ? Pleased to learn his name.

Since I work in science I meet scientists from all over the world every day (and 'yes', even nobel prize winners). I also work regularly with scientists from the Muslim world.
With some of them I do/did discuss the "scientific miracles" of the Quran and besides one exception they were all laughing their heads off when it came to the subject.

In clear terms: As far as I can see there are barely any scientist from the muslim world [having contacts to the west] who keep their faith and especially their belief in "Quranic miracles".


Let's look at the top three (4) to get a glimpse:

ABDUS Salam: Admittedly he kept (or rather "regained") his faith: an Ahmaddiyya, not very popular amongst [other] Muslims. To my knowledge: No statement from him about "scientific miracles" in the Quran.
   
Ahmed Zewail: He avoided discussion about Islam like the plague - and he had good reasons (and negative examples) for that. Likely that he was atheist/agnostic too. See also here.

Aziz Sancar: Known for his secular views. Sancar said that "he had been able to win the prize was thanks to Mustafa Kemal Atat�rk" - the guy that died of cirrhosis due to heavy drinking. Sancar is almost certainly an atheist/agnostic.

Ah, and there is of course Pervez Hoodboy whose books and comments (i.e. 17th minute of this video) about Islam are highly recommendable.

Ok, three or 4 is not statistically telling. But the low number of nobel prize winners is ...
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I do like your statement about "clay". Since the corresponding statement in the Quran is obviously wrong, you swiftly transform ordinary aluminosilicates into a highly divine building material which only God knows about. Well, obviously he's forgotten to inform Mohamed about the nature of this mysterious stuff.
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"Why did God create 7 Heavens? Why don't you ask Him on the Day of Judgement? "

So far he didn't care too much about me and I guess the day of judgment he will be busy with putting the supporters of Jesus and Mohammed to hell. But as I already suspected: The Quran has no clear thought about this question either.
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To your theory of "Exoplanets = seven earth" . In response to Tim the plumber you wrote: "With those conditions in-check, and with the additional observations, it is safe to say that there's, without any doubt, flowing water. Which is what the scientists assume, that's why they classify it as "Earth-like" in the first place, you see. "

Well, I'd wish you'd inform yourself a bit before coming up with your theories. In this Nasa link it says: "This system of seven rocky worlds�all of them with the potential for water on their surface". Did you read the word "potential" ? Do you understand it's meaning ? And where does it speak of "flowing water" ?
As you say: "Without any doubt". As much as in the case of the "divine origin of the Quran" ?

Of the seven there are only three in the habitable zone - and off goes your theory - down the drain.

Don't feel ashamed, you are not the only one speculating wildly about seven heavens and the seven earths.

That much about Quran and falsifiability.

Nevertheless, I insist, you should really inform yourself first before coming up with sentences as the one for Tim the plumber (an englishman!) : "What? Europa? You mean Europe? Uhm... Europe is on Earth, you know that right? "


Oh well, Airmano

Edited by airmano - 25 May 2017 at 2:07pm

airmano wrote: @Al Ghuraba Ouh, touched a nerve ? Well, let's have a look at your statements. Funny list of scientists you come up with: Moore never became a Muslim (but probably accepted money from Saudi Arabia for his statements) Jeffry Lang is a mathematician. That's laudable. So what ? Mr Brown ? Pleased to learn his name. Since I work in science I meet scientists from all over the world every day (and 'yes', even nobel prize winners). I also work regularly with scientists from the Muslim world. With some of them I do/did discuss the "scientific miracles" of the Quran and besides one exception they were all laughing their heads off when it came to the subject. In clear terms: As far as I can see there are barely any scientist from the muslim world [having contacts to the west] who keep their faith and especially their belief in "Quranic miracles". Let's look at the top three (4) to get a glimpse: ABDUS Salam: Admittedly he kept (or rather "regained") his faith: an Ahmaddiyya, not very popular amongst [other] Muslims. To my knowledge: No statement from him about "scientific miracles" in the Quran.     Ahmed Zewail: He avoided discussion about Islam like the plague - and he had good reasons (and negative examples) for that. Likely that he was atheist/agnostic too. See also here. Aziz Sancar: Known for his secular views. Sancar said that "he had been able to win the prize was thanks to Mustafa Kemal Atat�rk" - the guy that died of cirrhosis due to heavy drinking. Sancar is almost certainly an atheist/agnostic. Ah, and there is of course Pervez Hoodboy whose books and comments (i.e. 17th minute of this video) about Islam are highly recommendable. Ok, three or 4 is not statistically telling. But the low number of nobel prize winners is ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do like your statement about "clay". Since the corresponding statement in the Quran is obviously wrong, you swiftly transform ordinary aluminosilicates into a highly divine building material which only God knows about. Well, obviously he's forgotten to inform Mohamed about the nature of this mysterious stuff. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Why did God create 7 Heavens? Why don't you ask Him on the Day of Judgement? " So far he didn't care too much about me and I guess the day of judgment he will be busy with putting the supporters of Jesus and Mohammed to hell. But as I already suspected: The Quran has no clear thought about this question either. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ To your theory of "Exoplanets = seven earth" . In response to Tim the plumber you wrote: "With those conditions in-check, and with the additional observations, it is safe to say that there's, without any doubt, flowing water. Which is what the scientists assume, that's why they classify it as "Earth-like" in the first place, you see. " Well, I'd wish you'd inform yourself a bit before coming up with your theories. In this Nasa link it says: "This system of seven rocky worlds�all of them with the potential for water on their surface". Did you read the word "potential" ? Do you understand it's meaning ? And where does it speak of "flowing water" ? As you say: "Without any doubt". As much as in the case of the "divine origin of the Quran" ? Of the seven there are only three in the habitable zone - and off goes your theory - down the drain. Don't feel ashamed, you are not the only one speculating wildly about seven heavens and the seven earths. That much about Quran and falsifiability. Nevertheless, I insist, you should really inform yourself first before coming up with sentences as the one for Tim the plumber (an englishman!) : "What? Europa? You mean Europe? Uhm... Europe is on Earth, you know that right? " Oh well, Airmano

Touched a nerve? Who's nerve?

It's time you start to learn how to read. I clearly said that it's not really known whether Moore became Muslim or not; because that's not relevant. Knowing Islam is the truth is one thing, but willing to submit to God, is another thing, you see. Some people refuse to practise Islam, not because they don't think it to be true, but because they don't want to submit. There are millions of people who call themselves Muslims, and they KNOW Islam is the truth, yet they still don't pray. Because their faith is not high enough, that's number one, and number two is that they don't really want to submit yet.

Definition of scientist:

"A person learned in science."

Definition of science:

"The state of knowing: knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding."


Science is very broad. Mathematics is science, because it is knowledge. In fact, a cook is a scientist as well, because he possesses knowledge in his field, that others don't have. Any learned person in his field is a scientist. Period. Don't become prideful with using the word scientist; thinking it's something special. Science does not only mean biology, chemistry or physics. Understand that. And I mentioned three people that I happen to know.

There are obviously more. Reverts come from different backgrounds. You should understand that.

I couldn't care less if you had a big laugh with "scientists from the Muslim world". Does that now mean anything? If my shirt is white, but the president of the United States of America says it's black, does that now mean ANYTHING? What's your point in mentioning something like that? You're here disagreeing with me, right? What's to point for me to, then, mention that other 1.8 billion people in the world disagree with you as well. I wouldn't mention something like that! Yet, it's true, isn't it?

I studied sciences like biology, chemistry, physics, mechanics, electronics, pneumatics, hydraulics, and now I'm studying computer science. I've seen the whole 9-yards of what people would classify as "science". Don't think you're talking to someone with no background...


But I don't like to talk about myself, because I don't like to be boastful, nor do I want to be arrogant. So, please, stay focused on the subject, and don't bring ego to it, so that I don't have to react in a ego-manner, because I detest that.

You just mentioned 3 people with Arabic names. Well done (sarcasm). Nabeel Qureshi, you know him? Well, he sounds "Muslim", right, because of his name, right? Nope, he's a Christian. There are many people with Arabic names who aren't Muslim. Because, "airmano", in case you didn't know, there are Christians who are Arabs as well.

"What?! Christians who are Arab as well?!"

Yes, "airmano", yes.


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Nope, it's very clear that the "clay" that's being mentioned is not like the clay here. Because the clay of this world, is of this world. The clay that God used to make Adam, is clay of Paradise (Adam was created in Paradise), and everything in Paradise is better and different than here.

Here we have fruit, right? Yes. In the Qur'an it is mentioned that there are fruits in Paradise as well, but does that mean that the fruits of Paradise is the same as the fruits here on Earth? Nope. The Prophet (SAW) said:

"In Paradise, you'll find things not heard by any of you, not seen by any of you, and not imaginable by any of you."


Because when you and I think of "fruit", we think of bananas, strawberries, apples, etc., right?

But the fruit of Paradise is faaaaaaaaaaar from what we know. Again, the Prophet (SAW) said: "you'll find things", which is very general. You'll find clay in Paradise, obviously, and therefore, the nature of it is unknown to us, and we will never be able to imagine how that clay is. Let that sink in for a minute. THAT is how different and more amazing that "clay" is.

The human body will be different in Paradise as well. You'll not go to the toilet, you don't need sleep, you don't need food to survive (food is only for enjoyment), you'll never die there, you'll never be sad, you'll never feel pain, etc. These things cannot be understood by us, here and now. Because we think a certain way about our body. We cannot understand how we can survive without food, but our bodies there will be different to how the bodies are here. You understand?


Good.


The Qur'an does have a "clear thought" about why it's 7, but I said what I said because your question is irrelevant. Out of all of the questions you choose something which *does not matter*. But anyway:

"Allah has created every moving (living) creature from water. Of them there are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs, and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Verily! Allah is Able to do all things." - Qur'an 24:45


God does whatever He wants to do. Why 7 Heavens? Because He can, and He willed, so it therefore is.

Why do you have 20 pairs of socks? Why not 21? Why not 18? Why not 4? Why not 33? Why not 80? Why not 210? Why not 5151? Why not 1? Why not 6? Why not 8080? Why not 9052626? Why not 2?

I can go on and on, and on, and on, and on, and on. You see how this question isn't relevant? But still, whatever, that verse answers it. God creates whatever He wills. He doesn't need to provide an explanation to anyone, especially not to a sophisticated sperm drop who thinks too highly of himself, when in reality, the sophisticated sperm drop is just a vessel of urine and faeces, and will rot like a carcass in the end.

Get it in perspective :)


No, three of those 7 had *the most chance* of containing those things. But all 7 were candidates. And mr. scientist, you should not embarass yourself. Obviously it's "flowing water"... WATER IS ALWAYS CAPABLE OF FLOWING! Ice is NOT "flowing water", but it's frozen water.

If they meant frozen water, they would've said "ice", not water. Whenever a NASA scientist is talking about water, then they're talking about ACTUAL water. They use the right terminology. The reason why I constantly wrote down "flowing", is because I wanted to make sure that you knew what I meant. Because when someone says "water" they could also be thinking of ice, and I wanted to make it clear from square one, and on. Yet, you still were able to mess up in that regard.


And yes, those scientists can ONLY say that there's, without any doubt, flowing water, when they have landed on those planets, and seen it with their own eyes. Scientists can only actually make claims, when they observe. But they will never be able to reach those planets, because, hello, 40 light-year away, anyone? So they will never be able to take a sample, or whatever. It is from now on, only going to be assumptions and claims. But Earth has the same dynamics as those planets, so like I said, it's safe to assume that there's water there. I mean, if the MOON can have water, then how can an Earth-like planet not have water...



And the Seven Heavens are basically Universes. We live in the Lowest/First Heaven, which is called Samawatil-Dunya (Bottom Heaven/Lowest Heaven/First Heaven). This world is referred to as "Dunya". There are 7 Universes. That's what "Heaven" means. Paradise is something different. "Heavens" in Arabic is "Samawaat". "Paradise" in Arabic is "Jannah".


All that we can witness in "space" today, is in the First Heaven. To make it to the other heavens/universes, you need "Sultan" (authority) of God. Only Angels with permission are allowed to move from one Universe to another. Angels are created from light, so you can imagine the speed they could travel at. And also, the First Heaven (which we are in) is adorned with stars, like it says in Islam. So, whatever you see out there of stars, then this is all part of the First Heaven/Universe. We, will never be able to penetrate the other heavens, except with authority/permission.


"O assembly of jinns and men! If you have power to pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, then pass (them)! But you will never be able to pass them, except with authority (from Allah)!" - Qur'an 55:33

Edited by Al Ghuraba - 26 May 2017 at 9:16am

Definition of science: "The state of knowing: knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding."

I don't think that definition would be chosern by any scientust,

Most would prefer science to be considered; the process of examining the universe with the aim of understanding it and being thus able to preduct aspects of it.