The Trinity

AhmadJoyia wrote: Yes, that's correct, my brother. Thanks.

Good

AhmadJoyia wrote: Now, to answer specifically to your question in this post, it is not my argument that Allah can't create anything, rather I was saying that the Jesus was His creation and for which all He would do is say "Be" and that is it; all would be done as per His wishes. This is not unique to the creation of only Jesus, but any other creation that Allah intends to create. So, in essence, if you do agree that Jesus is the created Word of Allah, then it automatically implies that Jesus is not God but His special creation, just like the special creation of Adam.

I see what you saying, but I am just trying to eliminate misconceptions you have about True Biblical Christianity and how I see this. I am not trying to convince you one way or the other. You make your own choices.

AhmadJoyia wrote: My brother I agree, and we all know that our Prophet Jesus's Ministry was much earlier than of our Prophet Mohammad, but would that mean the Bible that you hold now in your/my hands, has the original message of Jesus. I don't think so, especially with the anonymous authorship of these Gospels.

Why would I need to doubt? I believe God is able to conserve the gospel He sent for guidance and light. Doesn't Allah say his word is unalterable. Where would logic be if I didn't believe he is referring to all His word?

AhmadJoyia wrote: But yet the history shows us so many of Christian denominational Churches each differing from one and another on one single issue and that is the divinity of Jesus. And yet we find you hard to explain it to us.

They don't differ in the central gospel message. That Jesus died for our sin as the Lamb of God and through Him only can we receive salvation as a gift from God and not something we earn in our own strength which doesn't glorify God but man!

AhmadJoyia wrote: Okay!! Now hold on a bit my brother over here. You admit Jesus = Creation of Allah and I also admit that Allah's Word always exist before the worlds as His eternal Word. So, do we have a firm agreement on this?

Yes, we agree to only a point. I am saying that only the flesh and blood of Jesus was created from God's word not as a result of God's word. Do you understand the difference? Jesus is the human result of God's Word. The word was made flesh. In the beginning before all prophets was the word. the word was with God and the Word was God. Jn. 1

AhmadJoyia wrote: My brother you line of reasoning on mere 'verb' is not very convincing. Whenever, Allah intends to create anything all He would say 'Be' and that shall be created. This word "Be" is not specific to creation of Jesus alone but to all of His creations.

What I am saying is Jesus is the Word verb Be and not a result of the verb Be, according to the gospel.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Brother here you are negating your own admission that Jesus was the creation of God. How can you switch Creation into Creator? Secondly, Allah's will to award any power to any of his chosen Prophet is not very uncommon, where OT does show that Miracle of creating life is not unique to our Beloved prophet Jesus alone.

I am not negating it. I am just saying Jesus is God's Word made human; call it creation if you like, but understand there is a difference between the creation of Adam and Jesus. For instance, Adam was created by the word of God and Jesus is the word of God that created Adam. That is why Jesus was able to say: "Before Abraham was I am" Jesus the Word created him. Jesus = The Word of God. I don't know how to make this clearer to you. This is what the gospel shows us. Maybe you can understand it this way: you believe angels are made from light and jinn from fire. You believe man was made from the earth, but Jesus was made from the Word and not as a result of it. This can be said of no other prophet.

AhmadJoyia wrote: [ Okay. Good.

So you agree?

AhmadJoyia wrote: No, my dear brother you just can't assert this on the basis of logic simply because: (1) You can't bind the God of what He can and what He Can't, otherwise He is not a God by definition (2) The OT provides examples of such Miracles to Prophets earlier than Jesus.

You are the one binding what God can and cannot do. You say he cannot have a son; You say God can't make His word a human who preexisted with God before the worlds were created.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Yes my brother when trying to defend 1+1+1=1, you have changed it into something like 1x1x1=1. But the question is can you justify the self contradictory statements of gospels and say son=God? Of course your forefathers have already spent thousands years to convince each other as what is Trinity, but you would also agree that this has resulted in far more disagreements and creation of so many Christian denominations where no one agrees with the other as who the Jesus was.

1+1+1=3 and it always will. We cannot understand what makes God tick using finite examples of God's creation or math. Math uses calculation process that involves different number sequences and time. It is God's creation. Using the logic of math to explain God is what should be considered flawed reasoning because the truth is God is passed finding out using finite human methods.

Edited by Saved - 08 November 2016 at 1:00pm

Good reasoning here. There are so many prophecies in the OT about Jesus that were fulfilled in the gospel account. That is one reason I trust the gospel.

Edited by Saved - 08 November 2016 at 8:23pm

syed_z wrote: Its strange that Jesus, son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) whom the Christians claimed that he came to die for the sins of mankind would utter words contrary to his mission.Also why would he complain to God about forsaking him when he was 'god' himself.

I find it hard to believe you read Psalm 22.

Christians believe that Christ laid aside his divinity during his life as Jesus of Nazareth so that he could experience the limitations of humanity, and demonstrate the possibilities humans held which we were unaware of.

DavidC wrote: >>�And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E�li, E�li la�ma sa-bach�tha-ni? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� (Matt: 27-46)<< This was not an original utterance. Jesus was reciting Psalm 22. One cannot understand what Jesus was saying here without reading the entire psalm.

Okay!! Very interesting indeed. At such a critical juncture of his life, Jesus recalling and quoting just a phrase from Psalm 22, could mean different to different people. So, brother DavidC, please enlighten us as what do you understand of it.

Secondly, I still waiting for your in depth response on two aspects of Christian history.
1) Development and evolution of Trinity through centuries of human effort as against God inspired.

2) Anonymous authorship of Biblical books (both OT & NT) negating initial stance of being true Eye Witness accounts.



Best regards.