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syed_z View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote syed_z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2016 at 11:14pm
Greetings David,

Thank you for your comments.

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

There is too much dancing around with language here.

In Christianity, Gabriel is an independent supernatural being with free will. He is used as a tool by God, but Gabriel is not God and so Gabriel is not identical to the Holy Spirit even if the translations seem parallel. Gabriel is only moved by the Holy Spirit.


The reason why we say Angel Gabriel (Alaihi Salaam) is the Holy Spirit because he is the leader of all the angels he has specially been assigned with the task to deliver revelations/Holy Books to the Prophets and Messengers.

(Al Quran 35:01) Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth; Who made the angels, messengers with wings - two, or three, or four (pairs):...

The number of wings determine their ranks.

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu ALaihi Wassallam) saw Angel Gabriel (Alaihi Salaam) on the night of his 1st revelation as someone who filled the horizon and 'had seven hundred wings'  (Recorded in Bukhari)

'Seven hundred' in Arabic also means hundreds and hundreds!

Angels in Islam don't have a will, for if they did, then Hell and Paradise would also be for them and they would be disobeying and obeying like us and the Jinns (The Invisible Beings).

Al Quran 66:06

....angels who never disobey God�s commands to them, but do as they are ordered


To help you understand Jinns is something you would refer to English as 'Genie'. Thats where the word comes from. Jinns in your language would be the devils but not all Jinns are evil and Quran confirms that there are pious among them.

That is why we have a belief that Satan (Iblis) was not a 'fallen angel', he was one of the Jinn and therefore had a choice between obedience and disobedience and therefore used that freedom to disobey God whom He used to worship a lot at one point.

The fact is the Biblical scriptures don't give you people knowledge about many mysteries what Islam, the final revelation gives us. The ultimate knowledge which can help mankind gain proximity to God is in the Quran. That is why Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi Wassallam) is the final and greatest of all Messengers.


Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:


As I understand Islam, and please correct me if I am mistaken, God and man are always separate. Man is locked in ego and prays to act in parallel to God's will. God does not act directly through individuals in Islam; individuals only submit to God.

In Christianity, we believe Christ enabled the ability of God to use mankind as a tool just as He used Gabriel. Because of Christ, God can enter us and act through us. This was not possible before Jesus. This is the activity of the Holy Spirit.

This is why we are Christians. We realize that now the Holy Spirit Of God can dwell within us.


Dear David,

That is where our Christian Brothers and Sisters cross their line and where we don't. For us Quran makes it distinct for us that regardless of how great the powers of the Prophets, Messenger and the Saints is, we cannot believe them to be the 'Same with God' or 'Equal with God'. Such can easily lead towards Shirk (Associationism or idolatory) an unforgivable sin.

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alaihi Wassallam) performed miracles numbering in thousands yet the companions and Muslims have been careful to cross such lines which you do with Jesus, son of Mary (alaihi Sallaam).

Consider the following Verse of the Quran:

(9:03) And a proclamation from God and His Apostle unto all mankind on this day of the Greatest Pilgrimage.


God and His Messenger making proclamation which could mean that God and His Messenger are one and the same. Such misinterpretation will be irreparable on the day of judgment.

38:71  Behold, your Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:"

38:72  "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down in prostration unto him."

The Spirit is unified, subtle, unseen and only way of connection to Allah The Most Merciful. The body is made of earth and is always attracted by it.

The Ruh (Spirit) inside of us is what helps us generate qualities of Allah (99 Names in Islam) such as Forgiving, Merciful, Justice, Kindness etc. The ones who are able to generate them through Jihad (Struggle against their evil Self/Ego made of earth) are the ones who gain proximity to Allah based on the level they reach.

That is why even in Islam, in the hadith scriptures we have a saying of Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi Wassallam) that 'Adam was created in God's Image'. Ignorant people would interpret these words literally!

The Messengers are the closest, then Prophets and then Saints and then those who come after them. The Messenger that reached a level unlike any other was Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu alaihi Wassallam). Read if you can about something called 'Miraj in Islam', its a spiritual journey that he was gifted by God due the persecution he kept patient with for God's pleasure.

But when these people gain nearness to Allah and become the close ones, the traces of their nearness can be seen and felt by those around them. With time their followers begin to assign divine qualities to them which leads the upcoming generations completely astray from the true understanding of their miracles or their miraculous lifestyle.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask any questions.

Peace be with you.

Edited by syed_z - 04 November 2016 at 11:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saved Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2016 at 8:35am
Gabriel is a holy spirit, but not The Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is God who can dwell in a Christian. We can have God and His Kingdom in us. This is true according to the gospel (Good News).

Edited by Saved - 05 November 2016 at 8:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2016 at 8:49pm
Ah, again the same style of response. MY bro, I request you as well as the Admin of this forum to guide you as how to compartmentalize your response in different paragraphs. You can do it if you select "Reply" button and then using "Quote & /quote" commands in brackets. I will show you just one more time what I mean, by enclosing my response that you quoted as well as the first of your paragraph to which I intend to respond, followed by my response. In the second paragraph I shall again quote your response followed by my response.


Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Dear Bro Saved!
It would be better for our discussions that we provide the questions or issues asked and then reply one after another, just like I have done to your reply. Otherwise summing up and non-specific response would create confusion and may involve a lot of frivolous discussion to creep into our dialogue. I hope you understand. Best regards.

PBUY AhmadJoyia:

Of course I understand. That is what I am doing. I addressed each point you brought up, and I asked you to show me where you got that Allah cannot make His word a person?

My dear brother, you have not answered all my questions, rather you chose to delay discussion on Trinity, the very topic you started with. Secondly, I questioned the authenticity of Present Bible, and didn't find any response from you and yet I see you quoting your theological concepts based on these books. Now, to answer specifically to your question in this post, it is not my argument that Allah can't create anything, rather I was saying that the Jesus was His creation and for which all He would do is say "Be" and that is it; all would be done as per His wishes. This is not unique to the creation of only Jesus, but any other creation that Allah intends to create. So, in essence, if you do agree that Jesus is the created Word of Allah, then it automatically implies that Jesus is not God but His special creation, just like the special creation of Adam. Now you can argue why this special creation was needed by Allah and then go on to justify it your way, the way your forefathers had done it in the past while sitting in the several of Councils of Nicea etc where Trinity was finally dogmatized, but these are all human efforts to reconstruct what is not from the eye witness accounts. I hope you understand the gravity of situation that you need to defend and provide logical evidences to support it. You just can't ignore it and build castles over quick sand.

Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:



You haven't responded to my last post to you. If someone comes out with a lot of points, we can just address a few of them if not all.

Regards,
Al

Yes, this is possible, but avoiding the main point of the topic and trying to answer secondary issues first, may not be very convincing strategy.

Best regards.

Edited by AhmadJoyia - 05 November 2016 at 9:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saved Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2016 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Ah, again the same style of response. MY bro, I request you as well as the Admin of this forum to guide you as how to compartmentalize your response in different paragraphs. You can do it if you select "Reply" button and then using "Quote & /quote" commands in brackets. I will show you just one more time what I mean, by enclosing my response that you quoted as well as the first of your paragraph to which I intend to respond, followed by my response. In the second paragraph I shall again quote your response followed by my response.
Okay, I think this is what you mean.

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


Dear Bro Saved!
It would be better for our discussions that we provide the questions or issues asked and then reply one after another, just like I have done to your reply. Otherwise summing up and non-specific response would create confusion and may involve a lot of frivolous discussion to creep into our dialogue. I hope you understand. Best regards.
I understand completely.

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


My dear brother, you have not answered all my questions, rather you chose to delay discussion on Trinity, the very topic you started with. Secondly, I questioned the authenticity of Present Bible, and didn't find any response from you and yet I see you quoting your theological concepts based on these books.
What questions are you referring to?
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


Now, to answer specifically to your question in this post, it is not my argument that Allah can't create anything, rather I was saying that the Jesus was His creation and for which all He would do is say "Be" and that is it; all would be done as per His wishes. This is not unique to the creation of only Jesus, but any other creation that Allah intends to create. So, in essence, if you do agree that Jesus is the created Word of Allah, then it automatically implies that Jesus is not God but His special creation, just like the special creation of Adam.
I thought the Quran states that Jesus is a Word from Allah? If he is a word from Allah that word is "BE." This confirms the Scripture that came before as the Quran claims it was to do.

In the gospel Jesus is not the father God; he is the son of God, and He is the Word of God which is the Word God used to create all things. Jesus is part of God not a partner, but the very part of the essence of God as His Word made human.

You can say that God created Jesus in the womb of a virgin, but you cannot say Allah's Word didn't always exist before the worlds as His eternal Word.

You may not see the Quran calling Jesus the word "Be," but I do, because Jesus is called I am in the gospel. As I mentioned, I am and Be are the same verb.

Jesus proves he is the word Be from Allah in the Quran when he created life from clay. Only God can do that and only God can forgive sin that separates us from God. Jesus forgave sin according to the gospel, and He created life according to the Quran.

You can say it is with Allah's permission, because that also agrees with the gospel read Jn. 1: All things were made by Jesus for Jesus and through Jesus. The Quran is agreeing with the through Jesus part of the gospel. Because it was God who did it through him. Logic should tell us that God doesn't share His creation power with anyone other than Himself.
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


Now you can argue why this special creation was needed by Allah and then go on to justify it your way, the way your forefathers had done it in the past while sitting in the several of Councils of Nicea etc where Trinity was finally dogmatized, but these are all human efforts to reconstruct what is not from the eye witness accounts. I hope you understand the gravity of situation that you need to defend and provide logical evidences to support it. You just can't ignore it and build castles over quick sand..
All they did was coin the term trinity at Nicea. The concept was always in the gospel Scripture. What makes this evident is God calls Jesus His beloved son, and he even calls Him God Heb. 1. I don't need to argue what is explicitly clear in the gospel. Please read the first post on this thread. This is where I answered a lot of question of yours.


Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


You haven't responded to my last post to you. If someone comes out with a lot of points, we can just address a few of them if not all. .
Read the first post.

Regards,
Al

Edited by Saved - 05 November 2016 at 11:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote syed_z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2016 at 8:22am
Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:

thanks for your response, yes, Adam was Allah's creation in both the Bible and Quran, but all creation was done through and for Jesus. Jesus is considered to be the second or last Adam according to the gospel. Sin entered the world through Adam's disobedience, but grace and truth came through the last Adam Jesus.


Jesus, son of Mary (Alaihi Salaam) never said he has come to die for the sins of mankind. Most of your explanation is based on your interpretation.

Your scriptures say something else:

�And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E�li, E�li la�ma sa-bach�tha-ni? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� (Matt: 27-46)


Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:

To this I would say that according to gospel Scripture Adam is considered son of God. Adam had to have been created without biological father or mother to start the human race, but what makes Jesus more special is the fact that he was born without an earthly father's intervention also making God His father.


God is His father but he had no father? That's very strange thing to say. It doesn't make sense at all.


Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:

True, Jesus may have created the bird with God's power which is not against Scripture that states all thing were created by Him through Him and for Him. Jn. 1 Jesus couldn't be Allah's creation because Allah needed His Word to create. Jesus is the Word be that created Adam and all prophets according to the gospel Allah said is for guidance and light.


This is another claim that you make while gospel scriptures say something different.

Saved,

I have one Verse of the Quran to share with you.


Al Quran 109:6 chapter of the disbelievers

To you is your way of life and to me is my way of life


PS: Please make sure when you are referring to words such as 'Islam says this and that' ....provide proof and if you cannot then ask us if it does and we will be glad to explain you.

But if you make claims and say that Islam says this and that without proof then that is not the way of discussion. You have been doing this on other threads without giving proof.

Other than that you are most welcome to follow whatever interpretation you wish to about Gospel.

All the best.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saved Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2016 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by syed_z syed_z wrote:


Jesus, son of Mary (Alaihi Salaam) never said he has come to die for the sins of mankind. Most of your explanation is based on your interpretation.Your scriptures say something else:�And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E�li, E�li la�ma sa-bach�tha-ni? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� (Matt: 27-46)
Jesus said, I lay down my life for the sheep and I have power to take my life back again. Jesus became sin for us that is why God turned his back on him for a short time. To save time, I will back up all I say of the gospel when challenged.

Originally posted by syed_z syed_z wrote:


God is His father but he had no father? That's very strange thing to say. It doesn't make sense at all.
Jesus called God his father and God called Jesus His son. Your debate is with God and Jesus not me. FYI, Joseph was Jesus' father by marriage and God was His Spiritual father in heaven. There is no reaon to refer to Him as son of His mother!!! Those this make sense to you now? If not, at least pray about it.

Originally posted by syed_z syed_z wrote:



This is another claim that you make while gospel scriptures say something different.
You have proved no false claims as of yet. With all due respect bro, you appear to confuse what you don't want to believe with being a false claim.

Originally posted by syed_z syed_z wrote:


Saved,I have one Verse of the Quran to share with you. Al Quran 109:6 chapter of the disbelievers To you is your way of life and to me is my way of life PS: Please make sure when you are referring to words such as 'Islam says this and that' ....provide proof and if you cannot then ask us if it does and we will be glad to explain you...
According to that statement why have a discussion or debate. Even though our way of life is different that doesn't make either one of us disbelievers in God. Calling a Christian a disbeliever is insulting, but I am not offended.

I am still open to debate and discuss it and find out why you believe the way you do and what support you have for your claims. That statement of yours just cuts everyone off before they can get into meaningful debate..

Edited by Saved - 06 November 2016 at 2:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2016 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:

Okay, I think this is what you mean.
Yes, that's correct, my brother. Thanks.

Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


My dear brother, you have not answered all my questions, rather you chose to delay discussion on Trinity, the very topic you started with. Secondly, I questioned the authenticity of Present Bible, and didn't find any response from you and yet I see you quoting your theological concepts based on these books.
What questions are you referring to?

Since now we know that the four gospels in NT are of anonymous authorship, it is really not very convincing to rely upon such books that might not relate eye-witness accounts of what had been happening around Prophet Jesus. So, all that we read from the gospels is based upon the conjectures depending upon who heard what from whatever sources the anonymous authors got their info from.

Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:


Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


Now, to answer specifically to your question in this post, it is not my argument that Allah can't create anything, rather I was saying that the Jesus was His creation and for which all He would do is say "Be" and that is it; all would be done as per His wishes. This is not unique to the creation of only Jesus, but any other creation that Allah intends to create. So, in essence, if you do agree that Jesus is the created Word of Allah, then it automatically implies that Jesus is not God but His special creation, just like the special creation of Adam.
I thought the Quran states that Jesus is a Word from Allah? If he is a word from Allah that word is "BE." This confirms the Scripture that came before as the Quran claims it was to do.

My brother I agree, and we all know that our Prophet Jesus's Ministry was much earlier than of our Prophet Mohammad, but would that mean the Bible that you hold now in your/my hands, has the original message of Jesus. I don't think so, especially with the anonymous authorship of these Gospels.

Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:


In the gospel Jesus is not the father God; he is the son of God, and He is the Word of God which is the Word God used to create all things. Jesus is part of God not a partner, but the very part of the essence of God as His Word made human.

Thanks for your efforts to explanation, but I wonder how many Christian denominations would agree with your definition what to talk about us? Just for your reference, please see the efforts your forefather made to define Jesus.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

But yet the history shows us so many of Christian denominational Churches each differing from one and another on one single issue and that is the divinity of Jesus. And yet we find you hard to explain it to us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:


You can say that God created Jesus in the womb of a virgin, but you cannot say Allah's Word didn't always exist before the worlds as His eternal Word.

Okay!! Now hold on a bit my brother over here. You admit Jesus = Creation of Allah and I also admit that Allah's Word always exist before the worlds as His eternal Word. So, do we have a firm agreement on this?


Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:


You may not see the Quran calling Jesus the word "Be," but I do, because Jesus is called I am in the gospel. As I mentioned, I am and Be are the same verb.

My brother you line of reasoning on mere 'verb' is not very convincing. Whenever, Allah intends to create anything all He would say 'Be' and that shall be created. This word "Be" is not specific to creation of Jesus alone but to all of His creations.

Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:


Jesus proves he is the word Be from Allah in the Quran when he created life from clay. Only God can do that and only God can forgive sin that separates us from God. Jesus forgave sin according to the gospel, and He created life according to the Quran.
Brother here you are negating your own admission that Jesus was the creation of God. How can you switch Creation into Creator? Secondly, Allah's will to award any power to any of his chosen Prophet is not very uncommon, where OT does show that Miracle of creating life is not unique to our Beloved prophet Jesus alone.

Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:


You can say it is with Allah's permission, because that also agrees with the gospel read Jn. 1: All things were made by Jesus for Jesus and through Jesus. The Quran is agreeing with the through Jesus part of the gospel. Because it was God who did it through him.
Okay. Good.

Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:


Logic should tell us that God doesn't share His creation power with anyone other than Himself.

No, my dear brother you just can't assert this on the basis of logic simply because: (1) You can't bind the God of what He can and what He Can't, otherwise He is not a God by definition (2) The OT provides examples of such Miracles to Prophets earlier than Jesus.
Originally posted by Saved Saved wrote:


Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


Now you can argue why this special creation was needed by Allah and then go on to justify it your way, the way your forefathers had done it in the past while sitting in the several of Councils of Nicea etc where Trinity was finally dogmatized, but these are all human efforts to reconstruct what is not from the eye witness accounts. I hope you understand the gravity of situation that you need to defend and provide logical evidences to support it. You just can't ignore it and build castles over quick sand..
All they did was coin the term trinity at Nicea. The concept was always in the gospel Scripture. What makes this evident is God calls Jesus His beloved son, and he even calls Him God
Yes my brother when trying to defend 1+1+1=1, you have changed it into something like 1x1x1=1. But the question is can you justify the self contradictory statements of gospels and say son=God? Of course your forefathers have already spent thousands years to convince each other as what is Trinity, but you would also agree that this has resulted in far more disagreements and creation of so many Christian denominations where no one agrees with the other as who the Jesus was.


Edited by AhmadJoyia - 08 November 2016 at 10:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2016 at 12:40pm
>>�And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E�li, E�li la�ma sa-bach�tha-ni? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?� (Matt: 27-46)<<

This was not an original utterance. Jesus was reciting Psalm 22. One cannot understand what Jesus was saying here without reading the entire psalm.
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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