The Trinity

The term trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, but one cannot deny the concept is there.

No where in the Bible is Christianity commanded to teach on the trinity or explain what makes God tick. What we know about God's triunity is that God is one and He is Spirit. He can never die. He must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. This is easily backed up by Scripture.

As for the three alluded to in the Quran, one can intelligently infer that the trinity understood according to Allah in the Quran are the son, mother and father. That would be Jesus, Mary and Allah.

If we look objectively and honestly, we know this from the way Allah questions Jesus: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" Allah makes it clear in the Quran (at least to me) when he states "They do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three." So, Allah implies that Christians worship Allah as the third person of the trinity, but nothing could be further from the truth.

What I am hoping to accomplish here is to show the misconceptions Muslims have had for centuries on what Christians believe and what is stated in the gospel about God's triunity.

I see it from a Scriptural perspective and that is Jesus is Allah's Word. Jn. 1 Christians don't believe there are three Gods; we believe there is one God. In fact, monotheism is original to the Judo-Christian faith.

I admit I associate Jesus to Allah as His word, but that is not an idolatrous association. Just like my word in this post is associated to me and your post is to you, God's word is associate to Him. If not, who else would His Word be associated to?

The next thing we learn from Scripture is that Allah is Holy; therefore, it is logical to believe God is the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit was never mention by Allah or his Islamic messenger.

The point I am making is there are no Christians that ever believe Allah/God the father was the third person of the trinity not before or after Muhammad; so, that begs the question who was Allah referring to when he said say not three? No one in Christianity I know ever said the three Allah describes by implication is the trinity.

We Christians cannot explain the trinity concept nor are we commanded to do so. But neither can Muslims explain what they mean by God is one.

How can I tell you how God allows His word to be a human person or for His Holy Spirit to be with us and he is one not two or three. I cannot and will not try to make finite human sense of the infinite.

So the debates continue to where Muslims say Christians associate to God and Christians state that Muslims are making association to Allah as well. Personally, I see one as idolatry and the other is not. Ask me why.


PBUY,
Al





Edited by Saved - 31 October 2016 at 9:26pm

There is too much dancing around with language here.

In Christianity, Gabriel is an independent supernatural being with free will. He is used as a tool by God, but Gabriel is not God and so Gabriel is not identical to the Holy Spirit even if the translations seem parallel. Gabriel is only moved by the Holy Spirit.

As I understand Islam, and please correct me if I am mistaken, God and man are always separate. Man is locked in ego and prays to act in parallel to God's will. God does not act directly through individuals in Islam; individuals only submit to God.

In Christianity, we believe Christ enabled the ability of God to use mankind as a tool just as He used Gabriel. Because of Christ, God can enter us and act through us. This was not possible before Jesus. This is the activity of the Holy Spirit.

This is why we are Christians. We realize that now the Holy Spirit Of God can dwell within us.

In Islam, I most easily see the Holy Spirit in the Ummah. Many personalities and generations and languages working as tools of God in a way that is not individual. The Ummah is a tool of God which acts through mankind, and it seems very close to the Christian idea of the Holy Spirit of God.

Dear Bro Saved!
It would be better for our discussions that we provide the questions or issues asked and then reply one after another, just like I have done to your reply. Otherwise summing up and non-specific response would create confusion and may involve a lot of frivolous discussion to creep into our dialogue. I hope you understand. Best regards.


Edited by AhmadJoyia - 04 November 2016 at 1:00am

Saved wrote: Now, I agree that the Quran states Jesus is the Word "Be." In the Quran, Jesus was created, but in the Bible he is the Creator. Jesus existed before all creation with God. He is His word. Jesus is the very Word God used to create all things. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" Jn. 1 What I find interesting is that in the Quran Jesus created a bird, but God can only share His creative power with no one but Himself. Moreover, In Islam Jesus is the Word verb "BE" and in the Bible Jesus is the Word Verb "I am." Notice carefully please: I am and Be are the same verb! Like I am is to Be, that is like Jesus is to God. "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Jn. 8: 58

In the Quran Allah Al Mighty also referred to Adam (Alaihi Salaam) as the word 'Be':

(3:59) Surely the example of Isa (Jesus) in the sight of Allah is the same as that of Adam whom He formed from clay, then said (to him): �Be.� He became.

Since Adam (alaihi Salaam) is also His Word, then you should also worship him and consider him to be divine like God?

Your concept of Jesus, son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) performing miracles with his own power and like a creator contradicts what is in the Gospel that he was just a human/man and could do it only by the Grace and Will of Allah.

�Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:� (Acts: 2-22)

In the Quran Allah (swt) makes it absolutely clear that Jesus, son of Mary (alaih Salaam) was performing miracles by the grace and Will of Allah and not independently,

Al Quran 3:49

 I will make the shape of a bird for you out of clay, then breathe into it and, with God�s permission, it will become a real bird; I will heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead back to life with God�s permission

Saved wrote: Finally, As the three alluded to in the Quran again the point I was making is there are no Christians that ever believe Allah/God the father was the third person of the trinity ever not before or after Muhammad; so, that begs the question who was Allah referring to when he said say not three? No one in Christianity I know ever said the three Allah describes by implication is the trinity. Please don't pivot on me here.

There was a Christian delegation that came to Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alaihi Wassalaam) and he preached and warned them not to say what they attributed towards God i.e. assigning sonship to Him. This is a fact that there were Christians that believed in that concept of trinity.

The Story is taken from Madinah to Karabala Vol 2 Chapter Mubaahila. This story is also recorded in all famous Quran commentaries.

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Twelve Christians led by their priest, who were residents of Najran, a city in south-western Arabia near the border with Yemen, came to see the Holy Prophet . They held a conversation with the Holy Prophet  and during the conversation they asked as to what belief he  held regarding Jesus or Isa . The Holy Prophet  replied:

He is the slave of Allah , Messenger of Allah    and the �word� of Allah , which He bestowed on Mary 

The priests interjected that Isa  is also the �son of Allah � (wa huwa ibnullah).

The Holy Prophet  replied:

Subhanahu ayyakunalahu walad

Allah  is Pure, and no children can be attributed to Him 

They asked:  Have you encountered a being born without a father? Since Jesus has no father, then Allah  is his father.

 The Holy Prophet  replied that they produced a strange proof for their claim, since if Jesus has to be accepted as the �son of God� because he had no father, then what would be Prophet Adam �s status since he had neither father nor mother? The Holy Prophet  then recited 3rd Sura, Aal-i- Imraan ﺁVerse 59

Surely the example of Isa (Jesus) in the sight of Allah is the same as that of Adam whom He formed from clay, then said (to him): �Be.� He became.

They had no answer to this and other proofs presented by the Holy Prophet . They aimlessly furthered the debate but were able to present no flawless proof for their claim.

When they continued arguing and refused to accept the truth then Allah  revealed the 3rd Sura, Aal �Imraan Verse 61

Come! Let us gather together - our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves - then let us humbly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah  on those who lie!

When two opposing schools of thought differ on an issue and when dialogue and debate fails to resolve the dispute, then the solution is a Mubaahila or a gathering where the opposing groups supplicate to Allah  as follows:

O Lord of the Universe! In this dispute give honour to the proper in this matter and disgrace those that are incorrect

The Holy Prophet brought Hazrath Ali  and Hazrath Fatimah Zahra , Hazrath Imam Husayn  and Hazrath Imam Hasan and told them :

When I supplicate to Allah  against this opposition you all should say, �May it be so� (ameen) The Holy Prophet  told those priests that they should also supplicate.

When the Holy Prophet  said this, the Pope, Abdul Haris lbne Alqama, the greatest scholar among them, addressed his people: exclaimed and told his followers:

La tu baahilu fatah le ku 

Don�t partake in this Mubaahila or all of us will be destroyed

 Surprised at his remarks they asked him as to what had happened to him, since he was in high spirits and confident of defeating the Muslims.  He said:

Verily I see a divine light on the face of our combatants; I am beholding such faces among them as can make the mountains move from their spots if they pray to God. So beware! Never try to contest with them, otherwise you will perish and the entire nation of Christians will succumb to extinction!