The Trinity |
Post Reply | Page 123 5> |
Author | |||||||||
Saved
Senior Member Male Joined: 22 October 2016 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 190 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 31 October 2016 at 12:46pm |
||||||||
The term trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, but one cannot deny the concept is there.
No where in the Bible is Christianity commanded to teach on the trinity or explain what makes God tick. What we know about God's triunity is that God is one and He is Spirit. He can never die. He must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. This is easily backed up by Scripture. As for the three alluded to in the Quran, one can intelligently infer that the trinity understood according to Allah in the Quran are the son, mother and father. That would be Jesus, Mary and Allah. If we look objectively and honestly, we know this from the way Allah questions Jesus: "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" Allah makes it clear in the Quran (at least to me) when he states "They do disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three." So, Allah implies that Christians worship Allah as the third person of the trinity, but nothing could be further from the truth. What I am hoping to accomplish here is to show the misconceptions Muslims have had for centuries on what Christians believe and what is stated in the gospel about God's triunity. I see it from a Scriptural perspective and that is Jesus is Allah's Word. Jn. 1 Christians don't believe there are three Gods; we believe there is one God. In fact, monotheism is original to the Judo-Christian faith. I admit I associate Jesus to Allah as His word, but that is not an idolatrous association. Just like my word in this post is associated to me and your post is to you, God's word is associate to Him. If not, who else would His Word be associated to? The next thing we learn from Scripture is that Allah is Holy; therefore, it is logical to believe God is the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit was never mention by Allah or his Islamic messenger. The point I am making is there are no Christians that ever believe Allah/God the father was the third person of the trinity not before or after Muhammad; so, that begs the question who was Allah referring to when he said say not three? No one in Christianity I know ever said the three Allah describes by implication is the trinity. We Christians cannot explain the trinity concept nor are we commanded to do so. But neither can Muslims explain what they mean by God is one. How can I tell you how God allows His word to be a human person or for His Holy Spirit to be with us and he is one not two or three. I cannot and will not try to make finite human sense of the infinite. So the debates continue to where Muslims say Christians associate to God and Christians state that Muslims are making association to Allah as well. Personally, I see one as idolatry and the other is not. Ask me why. PBUY, Al Edited by Saved - 31 October 2016 at 9:26pm |
|||||||||
AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
My dear bro Saved, thanks for opening up a topic, that was debated since the day Trinity was historically dogmatized and is still being debated, especially within the Christian Churches of various denominations. So, instead of wasting time here on what it is or what it is not, IMHO, the more important question is as what is reliable source of information and authentic from God (from our own respective beliefs) and what is not; only then we should be able to defend our respective point of view. I hope we should all agree to this one common point before proceeding further.
Here again, your question relates to historical developments of various Christian sects and their beliefs. Suffice is to say that what Arabian Christians believed in 6th or 7th Century may not be same as what now the Christians believe and same is true with the evolutionary development in the collection of canonized biblical books within different Christian sects. Keyword/phrase for you is to look for 'Christian heretics' and you would find the answer to your own question.
Ok, if this be the starting point, then let me add few more dimensions to this analogy and see where we end up. Yes it is true that everything that Allah has created or intends to create, all He says the "Word" "Be" and things are created, like the creation of Adam (humans). In the same way, Allah must have said "Word" for the creation of "Jesus" as a special gift to the People in need of him. So, yes we can associate "Jesus" as the 'Word' proceeded from Allah as His wonderful creation. Do you agree?
That is not quite true. 'Rouh ul Qoodus' can be translated as 'holy spirit' and is known as angel Gabriel among Muslims.
I guess, I have already answered this question by referring you to go through your own development history of various Christian sects. Start with Arian controversy.
Again, my brother you need to learn so much about Islam and the best starting point is Quran. Here is the definition of Allah, by Himself from Quran Ch112:1-4. "Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him."
Well, I have an answer if you agree with it. Why is it difficult to comprehend Allah's Word can't be a created human Jesus? Now, since Allah sent His "Word" Jesus for human guidance, it was all natural for the people to listen, obey and thus get Salvation. Simple and straight without any theological difficulty to understand, I hope. Edited by AhmadJoyia - 01 November 2016 at 9:25pm |
|||||||||
DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
There is too much dancing around with language here.
In Christianity, Gabriel is an independent supernatural being with free will. He is used as a tool by God, but Gabriel is not God and so Gabriel is not identical to the Holy Spirit even if the translations seem parallel. Gabriel is only moved by the Holy Spirit. As I understand Islam, and please correct me if I am mistaken, God and man are always separate. Man is locked in ego and prays to act in parallel to God's will. God does not act directly through individuals in Islam; individuals only submit to God. In Christianity, we believe Christ enabled the ability of God to use mankind as a tool just as He used Gabriel. Because of Christ, God can enter us and act through us. This was not possible before Jesus. This is the activity of the Holy Spirit. This is why we are Christians. We realize that now the Holy Spirit Of God can dwell within us. In Islam, I most easily see the Holy Spirit in the Ummah. Many personalities and generations and languages working as tools of God in a way that is not individual. The Ummah is a tool of God which acts through mankind, and it seems very close to the Christian idea of the Holy Spirit of God. |
|||||||||
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
|
|||||||||
Saved
Senior Member Male Joined: 22 October 2016 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 190 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
Your next point is of concern because it seems that you need to go back and read what I said carefully, because the Scriptures that came before back my statements here. Now, I agree that the Quran states Jesus is the Word "Be." In the Quran, Jesus was created, but in the Bible he is the Creator. Jesus existed before all creation with God. He is His word. Jesus is the very Word God used to create all things. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" Jn. 1 What I find interesting is that in the Quran Jesus created a bird, but God can only share His creative power with no one but Himself. Moreover, In Islam Jesus is the Word verb "BE" and in the Bible Jesus is the Word Verb "I am." Notice carefully please: I am and Be are the same verb! Like I am is to Be, that is like Jesus is to God. "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Jn. 8: 58 Finally, As the three alluded to in the Quran again the point I was making is there are no Christians that ever believe Allah/God the father was the third person of the trinity ever not before or after Muhammad; so, that begs the question who was Allah referring to when he said say not three? No one in Christianity I know ever said the three Allah describes by implication is the trinity. Please don't pivot on me here. Question for you: where does it state Allah's Word cannot be made human by God's power? PBUY, Al Edited by Saved - 03 November 2016 at 12:13pm |
|||||||||
AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
Dear Bro Saved!
It would be better for our discussions that we provide the questions or issues asked and then reply one after another, just like I have done to your reply. Otherwise summing up and non-specific response would create confusion and may involve a lot of frivolous discussion to creep into our dialogue. I hope you understand. Best regards. Edited by AhmadJoyia - 04 November 2016 at 1:00am |
|||||||||
Saved
Senior Member Male Joined: 22 October 2016 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 190 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
PBUY AhmadJoyia: Of course I understand. That is what I am doing. I addressed each point you brought up, and I asked you to show me where you got that Allah cannot make His word a person? You haven't responded to my last post to you. If someone comes out with a lot of points, we can just address a few of them if not all. Regards, Al Edited by Saved - 04 November 2016 at 1:19am |
|||||||||
syed_z
Senior Member Joined: 16 February 2014 Status: Offline Points: 116 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
In the Quran Allah Al Mighty also referred to Adam (Alaihi Salaam) as the word 'Be': (3:59) Surely the example of Isa (Jesus) in the sight of Allah is the same as that of Adam whom He formed from clay, then said (to him): �Be.� He became. Since Adam (alaihi Salaam) is also His Word, then you should also worship him and consider him to be divine like God? Your concept of Jesus, son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) performing miracles with his own power and like a creator contradicts what is in the Gospel that he was just a human/man and could do it only by the Grace and Will of Allah. �Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:� (Acts: 2-22) In the Quran Allah (swt) makes it absolutely clear that Jesus, son of Mary (alaih Salaam) was performing miracles by the grace and Will of Allah and not independently, Al Quran 3:49 I will make the shape of a bird for you out of clay, then breathe into it and, with God�s permission, it will become a real bird; I will heal the blind and the leper, and bring the dead back to life with God�s permission
There was a Christian delegation that came to Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alaihi Wassalaam) and he preached and warned them not to say what they attributed towards God i.e. assigning sonship to Him. This is a fact that there were Christians that believed in that concept of trinity. The Story is taken from Madinah to Karabala Vol 2 Chapter Mubaahila. This story is also recorded in all famous Quran commentaries. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Twelve Christians led by their priest, who were residents of Najran, a city in south-western Arabia near the border with Yemen, came to see the Holy Prophet . They held a conversation with the Holy Prophet and during the conversation they asked as to what belief he held regarding Jesus or Isa . The Holy Prophet replied: He is the slave of Allah , Messenger of Allah and the �word� of Allah , which He bestowed on Mary The priests interjected that Isa is also the �son of Allah � (wa huwa ibnullah). The Holy Prophet replied: Subhanahu ayyakunalahu walad Allah is Pure, and no children can be attributed to Him They asked: Have you encountered a being born without a father? Since Jesus has no father, then Allah is his father. The Holy Prophet replied that they produced a strange proof for their claim, since if Jesus has to be accepted as the �son of God� because he had no father, then what would be Prophet Adam �s status since he had neither father nor mother? The Holy Prophet then recited 3rd Sura, Aal-i- Imraan ﺁVerse 59 Surely the example of Isa (Jesus) in the sight of Allah is the same as that of Adam whom He formed from clay, then said (to him): �Be.� He became. They had no answer to this and other proofs presented by the Holy Prophet . They aimlessly furthered the debate but were able to present no flawless proof for their claim. When they continued arguing and refused to accept the truth then Allah revealed the 3rd Sura, Aal �Imraan Verse 61 Come! Let us gather together - our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves - then let us humbly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie! When two opposing schools of thought differ on an issue and when dialogue and debate fails to resolve the dispute, then the solution is a Mubaahila or a gathering where the opposing groups supplicate to Allah as follows: O Lord of the Universe! In this dispute give honour to the proper in this matter and disgrace those that are incorrect The Holy Prophet brought Hazrath Ali and Hazrath Fatimah Zahra , Hazrath Imam Husayn and Hazrath Imam Hasan and told them : When I supplicate to Allah against this opposition you all should say, �May it be so� (ameen) The Holy Prophet told those priests that they should also supplicate. When the Holy Prophet said this, the Pope, Abdul Haris lbne Alqama, the greatest scholar among them, addressed his people: exclaimed and told his followers: La tu baahilu fatah le ku Don�t partake in this Mubaahila or all of us will be destroyed Surprised at his remarks they asked him as to what had happened to him, since he was in high spirits and confident of defeating the Muslims. He said: Verily I see a divine light on the face of our combatants; I am beholding such faces among them as can make the mountains move from their spots if they pray to God. So beware! Never try to contest with them, otherwise you will perish and the entire nation of Christians will succumb to extinction! |
|||||||||
Saved
Senior Member Male Joined: 22 October 2016 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 190 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||
thanks for your response, yes, Adam was Allah's creation in both the Bible and Quran, but all creation was done through and for Jesus. Jesus is considered to be the second or last Adam according to the gospel. Sin entered the world through Adam's disobedience, but grace and truth came through the last Adam Jesus. You mentioned: ...if Jesus has to be accepted as the �son of God� because he had no father, then what would be Prophet Adam �s status since he had neither father nor mother? The Holy Prophet then recited 3rd Sura, Aal-i- Imraan ﺁVerse 59 To this I would say that according to gospel Scripture Adam is considered son of God. Adam had to have been created without biological father or mother to start the human race, but what makes Jesus more special is the fact that he was born without an earthly father's intervention also making God His father. One of the significant differences between Adam and Jesus is the fact that Jesus was not created. He existed with God as His Word from the beginning. Moreover, God didn't need to start creation making there no need of having a virgin birth; therefore, His virgin birth has a reason that can be found in its original source the gospel. the Quran is a secondary source in regards to His virgin birth, but the Quran doesn't give the reason and the gospel which is the original source of that info does. True, Jesus may have created the bird with God's power which is not against Scripture that states all thing were created by Him through Him and for Him. Jn. 1 Jesus couldn't be Allah's creation because Allah needed His Word to create. Jesus is the Word be that created Adam and all prophets according to the gospel Allah said is for guidance and light. PBUY, Al PS.... As for invoking a curse on the liars, people may try to do that to True Biblical Christians only to find the curse return from where it came. |
|||||||||
Post Reply | Page 123 5> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |