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i believe Quran and Bible

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asep48garut60 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asep48garut60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2016 at 4:52pm
Dear David C,
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The Gospel is the good news that because of Jesus all mankind can have eternal life. This means everyone, including Muslims. The Gospel is the good news that Jesus opened up new dimensions in the relationship between God and mankind, not a written document.
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In Islam, only Allah can give eternal life to mankind (not Jesus), even in the Quran stated that Jesus was only a Messenger of God who was assigned only to a nation, and not for the whole of mankind. Here are the proofs: Quran 43:59. Such verse in Quran has the same meaning as the Gospel Acts 13:23.
Based on the verse, then Jesus is a savior for Israel and not for the whole nation or the world. This is corroborated by the testimony of Jesus himself in Matthew 15:24.
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The four biblical gospels are not "The Gospel". Those are only transcribed oral histories. 'Gospel' in the sense of the bible is a literary genre.
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If so, is there the original Gospel?
How Christians carry out the commands of God ?, because all religious people certainly recognize that not only faith but must be accompanied by deeds. This is the same as the statement in James 2:17.
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In the Qu'ran, Jesus is the ultimate judge of all Muslims. I think the question for Muslims is "What is it about Jesus that the Qu'ran makes Jesus the final judge of Muslims instead of Muhammad?"
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Please indicate the verse in the Qur'an stating that Jesus is the ultimate judge of all Muslims?

In Islam, the supreme judge and the last is Allah (Quran 1:4). Only to Allah all mankind will be returned, and also only Allah who will judge mankind in Hereafter later.
The Prophet Muhammad is the last Messenger of Allah as mentioned in Quran 33:40.
Even in Other books there are also contained statements about the prophethood of Muhammad:

In Hindu
"Ahmad will receive the religious laws of his Lord. This law is filled with wisdom. I receive light from him as receive from sunlight.�( sama weda,11:6,8)

In Buddha
In the Doctrine of Buddhist by Caras (page 217-8) mentioned that the great Buddha coming to this world known as "Maitreya" (giver of grace which refers to Muhammad).

The correlation of such Doctrine in the Quran are: 34:28, 21:107 informing that the duty of the Prophet Muhammad is a carrier of mercy to all mankind and nature.

In The Bible
Deuteronomy 18:20, and the meaning of such verse has the same meaning with the verse in the Quran 69:44-47, 61:6.

Mystery of word of Himada in Hagai 2:7
"And I will shake all nations, and Himada for all nations will come; and I will fill this house with glory, says the Lord of the house."

The letter "th" in Himdath word can be changed to "hi" or even eliminated, and analysis of the Himdath word in Jews language, Hebrew and Arabic are as follows:
Himdath = Himdahi = Himda = Jews language
Himada = Hebrew
Ahmad = Arabic

All these words have the same meaning that is "commendable" and have the same root word that is: H-M-D, and if omitted the vowels will be:
H-M-D = Jews language
H-M-D = Hebrew
H-M-D = Arabic

Whoever the person who is an expert in Semitic language would have the same conclusion that Himada and Ahmad (Muhammad) are the same.

Regards,
Asep
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786SalamKhan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 786SalamKhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2016 at 5:12pm
Dear ovibos,

I will answer some of your points, if not all:

"Did you know that Matthew originally wrote the Bible in Semitic language (either Hebrew or Aramaic)?"

Yes. So you admit the author was in fact St. Matthew?

"Church Fathers like Papias and Jerome confirmed that Matthew wrote his gospel in Hebrew, which Jerome called it as matthaei authenticum (the original Matthew), which was written in Hebrew."

If you can cite the Church Fathers for this, then you can cite the Church Fathers (not limited to these two) as trusting the Greek translation.

"One of the copy of the Hebrew Matthew is from Shem Tov. In the version of Shem-Tov, there's is no Trinity in Matthew 28:19.
Obviously that the trinity part of the verse is an addition by later author/editor."

Ah, so a version from the Middle Ages, among Jews who reject Christianity and the Gospels, carries a more authentic reading than the version backed by ancient evidence? Absurd...

"Are the canonical gospel authentic?"

Ask St. Irenaeus, who was a disciple of St. Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of St. John the Apostle of Christ; St. Irenaeus would be equivalent to what is known as a 'Tabitabieen' in Islam.

"Many scholars believe that the author of Mark, Matthew, and Luke didn't write their gospel independently. Rather, they copied form other source(s), i.e. Matthew and Luke copied from Mark and another Lost Gospel called Q.

Many scholars believe that the Lost Gospel Q is the original gospel, the first gospel, and the earliest gospel."

That is only a theory, and not the only theory these scholars put forward. There are scholars who have several theories about the origin of the Quran too. Will you believe them? No, you would challenge them to prove their theories with irrefutable evidence. I have asked you to provide irrefutable evidence: when, where, why, and how this corruption took place, and you have not provided. Yet to you arrogantly come to your conclusions, evidently not having thoroughly delved into my posts, using only conjecture?

Try having some integrity, please...

Edited by 786SalamKhan - 09 November 2016 at 5:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saved Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2016 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

The Gospel is the good news that because of Jesus all mankind can have eternal life. This means everyone, including Muslims. The Gospel is the good news that Jesus opened up new dimensions in the relationship between God and mankind, not a written document.

The four biblical gospels are not "The Gospel". Those are only transcribed oral histories. 'Gospel' in the sense of the bible is a literary genre.

In the Qu'ran, Jesus is the ultimate judge of all Muslims. I think the question for Muslims is "What is it about Jesus that the Qu'ran makes Jesus the final judge of Muslims instead of Muhammad?"
Good question... It even states in the gospel that God judges no man but he has committed all judgment unto the son. The gospel tells us why, but certainly if there is a reason in the Quran, it will not agree with the gospel because the reason is contrary to Islam and that is that people might honor the Son the same as the father otherwise they are not honoring God (Allah)

Edited by Saved - 09 November 2016 at 5:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saved Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2016 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan 786SalamKhan wrote:

Dear ovibos,

I have asked you to provide irrefutable evidence: when, where, why, and how this corruption took place, and you have not provided. Yet to you arrogantly come to your conclusions, evidently not having thoroughly delved into my posts, using only conjecture?

Try having some integrity, please...
You will never get that information, because it is false and one would have to lie to make up a date when gospel corruption took place. They have to say the gospel is corrupted because they are supposed to believe it to be true. The truth of the gospel clashes greatly with the Quran. The irony of their wrong claim is they cannot prove they have a Quran that traces directly back to Muhammad

Edited by Saved - 10 November 2016 at 3:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2016 at 8:59pm
Asep - thank you for your gentle correction. The verses I remembered were from Bukhari not Qu'ran. This appears to give Jesus a special status in Islam. Why will Jesus return as the just ruler

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7)

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 658:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel (Fateh-ul Bari page 304 and 305 Vol 7)








Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ceo3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2016 at 9:11pm
Going back to about 700AD there is proof via discovered Quranic script that what we have today is exactly the same. Also non muslim historians prove that Muhammad SAW did speak the words.

Now criticisms of Quran are from the mouth of Muhammad SAW up until when it was written down. There were 100s of companions who memorised the Quran and they come together to collate into book form.

Some doubt this method, however today their are millions in the world who have memorised the Quran all 6000 plus verses in order, from 6 yrs old. You can take one from Malaysia, to Egypt to England to USA and they will all recite the same. No other book ever has been on such a large scale been commited to memory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saved Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2016 at 12:15am
Originally posted by asep48garut60 asep48garut60 wrote:


The Gospel is the good news that because of Jesus all mankind can have eternal life. This means everyone, including Muslims.
The gospel is the good news, but not everyone will benefit from it.
Originally posted by asep48garut60 asep48garut60 wrote:


The Gospel is the good news that Jesus opened up new dimensions in the relationship between God and mankind...
That is correct. That means now the only way to God is through Jesus according to Jesus' own words. Again according to the gospel message, if we deny he is the only way to God, He will deny us before His Father and the holy angels. That means no paradise forever.

But here is the gospel in a nutshell:
God has made his yoke easy and His burden light, and God will reason with us personally. No man is able attain the holiness stature necessary to stand in front of our all powerful supreme Creator, but He has made a way for us to get there. For instance, like Noah was saved hidden in the ark during the judgmental global flooding of the earth. We too can be saved hid in Christ when God's judgment falls on all the earth of the end-time.

Additionally, like the children of Israel were spared death when they obeyed God by putting the blood of an innocent lamb on their door post.

The blood of the Lamb is key. We too can be saved if we are covered by the blood of the Lamb of God, but it is impossible to be covered that way if one doesn't believe Jesus died and rose from the dead.

Once we accept the Truth who is Jesus, and the life who is Jesus, and the way who is Jesus we receive the gift of salvation; once we have that gift we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (not work for it). But the beauty is, Jesus will be the author and finisher of our faith. It is written in the gospel that he who has started a good work in you will finish what He started. Now that sounds like a plan of salvation that goes beyond human reach, but with God all things are possible.

Finally, wisdom tells us one cannot believe in both the Bible and the Quran. We will have to choose one or the other. The Bible and the Quran are unequivocally mutually exclusive. Had the starter of this thread known that, he or she wouldn't have started this thread.

PBUY,
al


Edited by Saved - 11 November 2016 at 12:28pm
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asep48garut60 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asep48garut60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2016 at 9:45pm
Dear David C,

Frankly, my feelings say that you are a good man to anyone, not just the look from your writings, but my sixth sense to talk like that. And I was instructed by Allah to reciprocate the goodness from someone, whoever that person (Quran 4:86).

Maybe these are just additional of things on Islam.

Not only in Hadiths, but also in the Quran there are several verses that say, Jesus hasn't dead, among them: Quran 3:54-55, 5:117.

The word "tawaffa" or "mutawaffika" or "tawaffaitani" in the such two verses has a meaning that Allah takes the spirit and body of Jesus together to be lifted into the sky, and I interpret those words as "akhadza wa qabadha" (calling and holding), but the meaning is the same.

Both of these verses is made clear by the word of Allah in the Quran 4: 157-158

The word "qataluuhu maa" (they did not kill Jesus) is the word of a general nature, that is, they did not kill him in any way. Then followed by the words' maa shalabuubu "(they did not crucify him), it's a special word. That is, they did not kill him in any way, and also means they did not crucify Jesus. Then proceed with the word "bal rafa'ahullahu ilaih" (but Allah lifted him) meaning that Jesus was appointed by Allah to be saved from murder conspiracy.

Narrated by Ahmad and Abu Dawud that:
"Rasulullah said:" ... and indeed he (Jesus) is going down ... and then he will be on the earth 40 years ...�

Qadir Hasan explained, which shows Jesus will come down is the word "Kahlan". The word "kahl" means old age is more than 30 years old and grizzled.

The relationship between hadith with Quran 3:46 is the word "wa Kahlan" or "al kahlu", it shows to thirty years in the time of Jesus ever on earth and in the last 40 years in the future, Jesus will down again to the earth. This verse gives a hint that Jesus had not died and will return to the earth until he reaches the age of "wa Kahlan" or "al kahlu".
I like to discuss with anyone on the essential truth that does not come from human opinion, no coercion and no hatred feeling. Thanks David, Peace be with you.

Regards,
Asep
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