i believe Quran and Bible

Ceo3 wrote: 2Acts wrote: Ceo3 wrote: Dear Saved, Islam spread rapidly at inception and now not because of language but the beauty of the conduct of its followers. From China to Africa countless examples of people who revert who dnt know arabic (check these discussion groups.) Due to simplicity and common sense Islam represents. Therefore one does not have to know arabic to ascertain truth. All am saying is that in the language of arabic and the way Quran written is a miracle, and for that you need to know the language. Also was translated in all languages for everyone to heed the warnings therein. Just as Bible and Torah revealed in the language of their people at that time, same so Quran. Ta Islam spread rapidly at the inception with sword and military conquest more like. You say the language of arabic and the way the Quran is written is a miracle, and for that you need to know the language. So the implication is without knowing Arabic one cannot appreciate the miracle. That means Islam is not a universal religion ! Dear 2Acts, Yes, and Crusades used like military. The miracle of Arabic as the language is only one aspect. As Jesus AS had the miracle of healing people (medicine was the Wow science of that day) so was the language of Quran miracle to Arabs (no recorded attempt by arabs to produce chapter like Quran). Also like Moses AS magic, the magicians who had to stop him quickly believed in God because Moses magic miracles were superior to theirs. So to did arabs revert to Islam just by hearing the Quran. The Quran as a miracle has something of everything for everyone from cosmology, theoretical physics, philosophy, history, medicine, linguist ect. Thanks.

Yes the Crusades used like military. But this was not the origin of Christianity. While Islam right at the start was spread by military conquest Christianity did not. The Crusades happened centuries after the start of Christianity. And the reason the crusades happened was as self defence against centuries of Arab Muslims attacks and aggression.

You say the language of Arabic is one aspect of the �miracle�. So without knowing Arabic one cannot appreciate the miracle. That means Islam is not a universal religion ! And why would people convert to Islam because of the Quran when it is full of contradictions and ridiculous mistakes.

If the Quran is a miracle and has everything from cosmology, theoretical physics, philosophy, history, medicine, linguist etc, then please answer me why there is no modern science that comes from Islamic countries. All the best science for the last few hundred years has come from the West. Not from Islamic countries. There are no elite universities in the Muslim world. And even when the sciences flourished during the Islamic golden era it was all based on the Greek and Persian civilisations that came before it.

Dear Airmano

Challenge of Quran
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For the Arabs of Arabia at the time of Muhammad (SAW) knowledge of the language and proficiency therein was considered basis of nobility and intellect. Similar to when the new world was conquered there was great competition to see which nation could expand to a greater degree than others. Same like nuclear arms or the space race. Nations competed as it was the crowning achievement at those particular generations, pyramids in ancient Egypt. No intention to state Arabic a great language anymore than US great as they are leaders in arms and technology.
Origami, fascinating! What would be the criteria in this art form for one to have excelled? Well one would have to study from the masters over many years. Learn the history. Could you or I judge an Origami contest? No because we don�t know the various techniques involved and my response would be limited to �Awesome�. Likewise the Quran as writing in Arabic, from the linguistic point of view one needs to have extensive knowledge of said subject. You haven�t answered re: reading Quran cover to cover? It is lengthy and while not a pre-requisite, critically examining the Quran in totality, perhaps your view regarding this discussion point will be altered.

Abrogation
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Know of any authors who could neither read nor write and produced a book still being read 1400 years later. Abrogation is a subject on its own. Surely when an author writes he removes the �wrong� completely, ie: 1st draft, 2nd ect. Muhammad SAW could�ve easily told his Companions to stricken from the record but he did not do so. Changed implies writing then alter words and removing pre-altered words, however the abrogated verses remained. The primary reason for this is that Quran was revealed in stages as the Muslims required guidance given the daily circumstances. Therefore alcohol, interest on loans ect. were gradually phased out as the faith of the Muslims increased.

Preservation of the Quran
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Afzal Sumar is a Shiite scholar; it�s like me providing David Cameron to write an article on Brexit. Please if you could provide from Sunni source then we discuss further.

Quranic Contributions
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I can�t fault you on any of the arguments presented. Most of the works of Aristotle and co translated into Arabic then into the European languages. The question remains why Europe needed Islamic scholars to translate and bring back to Europe when they already had it? There was still free travel, besides in wartime economic sanctions par for the course. Slavery was worldwide norm {Quran actually encourages releasing slaves for reward and this was the custom of Muhammad (SAW)}. Islam encouraged knowledge seeking and science and never persecuted those in the pursuit of knowledge (politics aside). Kindly elaborate on �Sharia/Quran has a poor reputation regarding knowledge dissemination�?

I believe you are correct \\\�equally happened within other religions�\\\. Religion brought civilisation to the then unknown world. With Islam spreading rapidly not only to Europe, but North Africa, Sub continent and Asia.
This is the double standards meted out not only to Muslims but all faiths \\\�scientists who live in Muslim world�\\\. It�s now considered normal for people to say Quran and Islam is evil if a man with an Arabic name, and claims to be a Muslim, does something bad or evil, however little consideration when Muslims contribute to the advancement of mankind (both historically and present). I do however question if Ibn Sina & co�s contribution would have been any different had they not been Muslim? Correlation between religious affiliation/vigour and scientific contributions (historically), should be interesting. There are however many sayings of Muhammad SAW in which He SAW encourages the pursuit of knowledge.

Still the Quran as a means to have brought some political and economic order to deliver the grounds for advancement has to still be acknowledged. Glad you brought up Sir Isaac Newton, who believed in one Supreme God?
Admittedly over the last couple of centuries, we as Muslims have gone to sleep (regarding contributions to medicine and science) hence our predicament today, loss of land, Islam not implemented on federal level. But thankfully of late, reverts in the West, Africa and Sub continent have been making strides and contributing on a national level. Whether the knowledge leading to truth comes from religious or not, God has promised He will show us all the truth in His signs. And I am convinced with the advancement of technology if would be increasingly possible, watch this space.
Quran Surah 41 Verse 53 � We shall show them Our portents on the horizons and within themselves until it will be manifest unto them that it is the Truth. Doth not thy Lord suffice, since He is Witness over all things?�

Protection of Quran and not Bible
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Can answer with a question, why few main religions, why Islam last? Whats the use of religion if not for free will to choose your service to God. If God forced everyone to believe why we were created and what would be the use of the creation? Doubt Id to justice to the question why God protected Quran over Bible (Am reading up on it though)
Regarding Free Will, the verse below. Sometimes there are just questions we will not get answers to (in this life). Like what is God made of, how does he look ect. {more of this further down}? But if you rephrase your question ///�how God can exist with human free will�/// I will certainly attempt.
Quran Surah 2 Verse 30. �And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: wilt Thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.�

Michael Hart
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Not proud, don�t need anyone telling me Muhammad SAW is a great man in my eyes. Point to show non-Muslims regarding how He SAW as making an impact in the world. Mainly Islamic Research Agencies \\\�Wiki says 1.6 billion muslims\\\. Wiki gets from Pew Research. Most countries surveyed don�t keep proper census so that figure could also be way off, however the Research/Relief agencies have feet on the ground. But I am happy to go along with your conservative figure. Still more than 50% of the population believe in a Supreme Being and life after death. Islam joined the race a bit later, but so long we finish strong (

Prophet SAW
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Alexander the great was good or bad? Ivan the terrible was a good or bad. Character of individuals you will find is the easiest to ascertain when reading history.
When he went back to Makkah and conquered Makkah from people who tortured and killed his own family he forgave them all and not a drop of bloodshed. Surely if he was bloodthirsty they would have been the people to destroy (Am a bit short on non-Muslim sources on this event, hopefully your sources concur). Others did far less and were awarded Nobel Peace Prize.
Yes the punishment seems severe///�just do the exercise�///, but looks at his actions (point above); if he was a hard person he would not have been as successful. At the same time I am not going to hide the fact that the Quran�s punishment of wrongdoers is harsh. Have done the exercise suggested and did actually learn something further these terms are used in stories referring to Adam AS, Moses AS as well. Still not sure on how Quran served him solely besides that it united the Arabs. He did already prior to Prophethood be gravely concerned on the condition of His SAW people.     

\\\�If he was a poor man�\\\ Other Kings took all the booty. Name a King in the last 2000 years who died poor while in power. I am not sure on the exact percentage some sources show 20%, but is was sufficient to support Him SAW and his family and even then he gave most away to charity. He SAW lived, by my estimation in about 3m by 3m house next to the mosque had camel and donkey. At the time of His SAW death he left a small piece of land, some armour, a white mule which had to be distributed to charity (Sahih Bukhara V4, B 3, and H7). I am not doing this to boast as this was contrary to His SAW way but merely to establish character reference. Indeed most of the Prophets lived with modest means, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (AS). The question remains why would they risk their lives, their families and livelihood for no material gain, no fame (there were loathed by their own people/families).

Treason
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SOURCE: Lings, M: Muhammad; his life based on the earliest sources pg 233.
This I believe was before Lings reverted. Some 900 men were convicted of treason and executed, woman and children spared. Interesting to note it was a Jew chief who gave to order in accordance with Jewish Tradition. Ito relying on different sources, history is word of the powerful. So it goes without saying that Muslim sources would favour the Muslim point of view while non-Muslim their own. Therefore reason and logic based upon the best available knowledge should be the order of the day. I try to get as many points of view as possible, not always that easy.

Science and faith
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Thank you for the openness. With you being a man of science I find this intriguing, may I enquire as to what led to this conclusion \\\�possibility of another reality\\\�?
This other reality we call the unseen. My opinion is that Multi dimensions exist as some commentators view the verse below could mean (seven heavens) seven dimensions Quran Surah 17 Verse 44. �The seven heavens and the earth and all that is therein praise Him, and there is not a thing but hymneth his praise; but ye understand not their praise. Lo! He is ever Clement, Forgiving.�
\\\�This does however by no means imply�\\\Appreciate the candour and your reasoning. Ultimately we choose (faith, science ect.) what is best for us and satisfies our requirements. I am not going to sell Islam as better than the other religions, however for simplicity and ease of understanding on the basis of belief alone sets Islam apart.

Big bang
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I have a man Muhammad SAW who told me Islam is the truth. Another man deduced in a jungle that man evolved from Ape, who evolved from sea creature who was in sea evolved from tad pole, how come difference in sexes. Male and female of all species, was it that one tad pole decided to be male and another female? I am not being facetious this is one of the problems I�ve had with evolution. While I agree with the experiments conducted (creation adapts to its environment and for survival) I believe we came from Adam AS. Which seems more plausible that we came from a created man or sea creature? Please in layman�s terms if you will.

Even judges get it wrong sometimes with new evidence exonerating those convicted. They can only do the best they can with information provided. Further to that the skill of the attorney weighs sometimes more than the evidence. \\\�Would you like a legal system...�\\\Perhaps it�s more fitting to pose that question to authorities who suspect every person with a beard or headscarf is an enemy.

Eternal Questions
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I can�t with the naked eye see gravity or air, but it exists otherwise id be dead and floating. I can�t see God but I have hope he will ensure ultimate justice. By this I mean God exists to ensure eternal fairness, i.e. Hitler died once for millions he killed and was never brought to account. With God his punishment equates his crimes in the long run. Similar a man who rapes and kills innocent children is sent away for life. Where is the justice even if he lives out his life in prison to the aggrieved? So God is the Great equaliser. Similarly the poverty stricken in Africa, where is the justice for them their whole lives without even bare necessities. \\\� I would like to see more honesty�\\\ You are spot on, unless someone saw God personally, one can but only speculate (even based on the testimony of the Prophets). That�s when faith comes in, when one leaves the speculation and doubt and believes in God. I believe (in my modest view) each person gets the opportunity to choose to believe or not, based on the best available signs and logic. This has to be the case otherwise God would not be fair in condemning anyone to hell fire. Every sane person would need to be shown the truth and have the means to ascertain, then choose.
God is the creator of all creation, the two shall never cross. When we die our children can do as they please, with God from maturity to grave we all owe him obedience.
God created the first creation Surah 17 Verse 49.� And they say: When we are bones and fragments, shall we, forsooth, be raised up as a new creation?�
HE created us the first time so no trouble creating the second time. \\\�go back to the state we come from�\\\Yes it�s hard to think we die into nothing. Life on this earth is too short to know, learn and experience everything. All ones sufferings would be pointless, the wealth, knowledge, children I accumulated would prove worthless. I want to go to heaven (God Willing) where I would have no worries, even for one day.   We believe we are raised up strong healthy individuals everyone age 33 as per Prophet SAW.
\\\� If I went to heaven and my kids to hell...�\\\ If you raised your kids well you will all go to heaven. In Heaven (hence the name) no ill feelings, no sorrow otherwise it would be earth. Your conscious/soul(evolutions take on conscious?) would not allow such a vile thing as taking your kids lives (sane adults). Even if your kid does die, the knowledge of them in heaven provides some sort of peace.


\\\� As a last one: Can you really imagine�\\\
I don�t have to tell you there is only one right way; religions vary too much on ideology. Quran Surah 22 verse 17. �Lo! those who believe (this Revelation), and those who are Jews, and the Sabaeans and the Christians and the Magians and the idolaters. Lo! Allah will decide between them on the Day of Resurrection. Lo! Allah is Witness over all things.�

It must be both interesting and perhaps confusing when those outside main stream religion view the conflict between the major faiths. Everyone saying the other condemned to hell fire. Even in Islam there are many sects, factions claiming to be the one right way. Even more strange is why would Almighty God allow this, as well as persecution of the Prophets when all they were trying to do was save mankind. Well a starting point is that as God is all powerful, his mercy, patience and tolerance would be divine. Whenever a Prophet went to a corrupt nation, those people were more powerful. Noah AS, Moses AS to Pharoah, Jesus AS to the Jews, Muhammad SAW to the Quraysh. Why not give these Prophets greater powers to subdue the corrupt?

We, as do the other people of the scriptures, believe Jesus AS will descend again and put this matter to bed.

\\\� two lessons from science�\\\

My instincts/gut/feelings actually led me to the truth. I think feelings could point you in a direction, perhaps explore it and if it does not make sense leave it.When you look at the stars and how perfect the universe is, don�t you wonder that a Supreme Being has to be in control? Closer home, the human brain, the process of birth, mountains, the ocean. These are all His signs for those who are willing to reflect, be objective and seek the truth. Faith should be based on knowledge and reason otherwise I believe it�s not true faith.

Regards,

Saved wrote: 2Acts wrote: Ceo3 wrote: Dear Saved, Islam spread rapidly at inception and now not because of language but the beauty of the conduct of its followers. From China to Africa countless examples of people who revert who dnt know arabic (check these discussion groups.) Due to simplicity and common sense Islam represents. Therefore one does not have to know arabic to ascertain truth. All am saying is that in the language of arabic and the way Quran written is a miracle, and for that you need to know the language. Also was translated in all languages for everyone to heed the warnings therein. Just as Bible and Torah revealed in the language of their people at that time, same so Quran. Ta Islam spread rapidly at the inception with sword and military conquest more like. You say the language of arabic and the way the Quran is written is a miracle, and for that you need to know the language. So the implication is without knowing Arabic one cannot appreciate the miracle. That means Islam is not a universal religion ! Not only that the recitation must be done in Arabic and you must visit an Arabic country at least once in your life. So you have a good point. Even the Quran says to the conclusion: "To you be your religion and to me be mine." I don't see how Muhammad makes for a universal prophet either, because he is the model all Muslims aspire to follow; therefore, many Muslims marry children even younger than 6 years old. Since the world frowns on such a thing, how can he be a universal prophet? The Apostle Paul and Jesus didn't have this problem. I aspire to be like Paul, because he followed Jesus more closely than anyone I know from Scripture. According to the gospel, no one compares to Jesus in substance, in essence, in nature or character except for only God Himself.

muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is the universal prophet and he followed all the prophet before than herself not only Jesus but also Nooha and Abraham and Mooses and that is in the infallible and holy Quran and correct speeches of 12 infallibles     
if you be willing I will type some of them

@ Airmano
Please note my reply was posted 12.1, still under moderation.