IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 13:15  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

13:15

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>
Author
Message
TG12345 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 16 December 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2016 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Ok, just once again I try to explain your fallacy.

Go ahead. And while you're at it, try to not forget or be afraid to answer my question.
I am posing it now, for the fourth time.

Here it is:

And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives.

Tell me whether or not this is a true statement, and make sure to explain why.

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:


I am saying that not everything that prostrates to God (ie everything) has a shadow in the morning and evening.

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


True, as there are zillions of creatures living in the deep sea beyond the reach of sun light. But they do prostrate to God in their own way, willingly or unwillingly.

Correct. But these things have no shadow since they are not exposed to the sun.

Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:


Therefore to say that the shadows of everything that prostrate to God, prostrate in the morning and evening, is false.

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:


Now here is your faulty understanding. How can this statement be false? If any thing that has a shadow, prostrate to God, its shadow also do the same. Don't you see it?

Yes, I get that.
But I am saying that not all things have shadows, and the verse does not say what you just said, that if anything that has a shadow prostrates to God, its shadow will do the same.

13:15 states:

And unto Allah (Alone) falls in prostration whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons.


Notice "whoever is in the heavens and the earth", not "whoever is in the heavens and the earth and has a shadow".

In other words, according to the verse:

A) everything prostrates to God
and
B) Everything that prostrates to God has a shadow that also prostrates to Him, in the mornings and evenings.

Since you seem pretty determined not to discuss the hypothetical statement I made and I have reason to believe that you would not answer it like you didn't do it the last four times, I will do so, and show you how it makes the same kind of fallacy that 13:15 does.

If I were to state:

And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives.

It would mean that
A) every observant Muslim man prostates to God
and
B) Every observant Muslim man who prostrates to God has a Pakistani wife or wives who do the same.

A) is true.
B) is false.

B is false because not every Muslim man has a Pakistani wife or wives, or a Pakistani wife or wives who prostrate. By saying "And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives. ", I am saying that every Muslim man has a Muslim Pakistani wife or wives. This is false.


According to 13:15,

A) every being in the heavens and the earth prostrates to God
and
B) Every being in the heavens and the earth that prostrates to God has a shadow that also prostrates to Him, in the mornings and evenings.

B is false because not every being in the heaven and earth who prostates to God has a shadow in the morning or evening (or at all in some cases). By stating "And unto Allah (Alone) falls in prostration whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons.", the verse states that everything that prostrates has a shadow. That is not the case.

Hope this is clear now. Feel free to argue and refute and critique and ask questions. I promise to not run from them.
Back to Top
TG12345 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 16 December 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TG12345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2016 at 5:21pm
Thanks for the input, Airmano. I think that the verse is saying that by merely existing, everything prostrates, whether they want to or not.

I am curious to see if you want to answer this question, especially the second part, which AhmadJoiya has been refusing to answer.

And unto Allah falleth prostrate every observant Muslim man, as do their Pakistani wives.
- What is wrong with this statement, if anything.

And more importantly.
- Is there any way this statement can be true?
Back to Top
bahaiguy View Drop Down
Starter.
Starter.
Avatar

Joined: 04 April 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bahaiguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 April 2016 at 1:45am
Gentlemen, let us bow our heads to the Lord our God, and be mindful of our eternal nothingness before Him.

Surely, it is His will that we love one another, that we strive for peace and brotherhood between all men, that we show utter humility before Him, therefore do we bow our heads as does every living thing in creation. All is created by Him, is therefore subject to Him, prostrates itself therefore unto Him insofar as all is dependent upon Him to even exist.

Prostration evokes humility, providing catharsis and awareness through graphic physical expression.
�Say: O people! Fear ye God, and turn not away disdainfully from His Revelation. Fall prostrate on your faces before God, and celebrate His praise in the daytime and in the night season.�

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, XV, p. 38)


�O SON OF MAN!
Transgress not thy limits, nor claim that which beseemeth thee not. Prostrate thyself before the countenance of thy God, the Lord of might and power.�

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words, No. 24)
Back to Top
bebeeells1 View Drop Down
Starter.
Starter.
Avatar

Joined: 25 August 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 2
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bebeeells1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2016 at 11:23pm
Thank you Tim the plumber for your response, I appreciate it. Am looking forward to hearing Muslims reply :)
Back to Top
AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2016 at 10:10am
Originally posted by bebeeells1 bebeeells1 wrote:

Thank you Tim the plumber for your response, I appreciate it. Am looking forward to hearing Muslims reply :)

Sorry, did I miss out your question? What is it?
Back to Top
asep48garut60 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 27 July 2016
Location: Indonesia
Status: Offline
Points: 248
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asep48garut60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2016 at 3:44am
Dear TG12345, peace be with you.

First of all I beg permission to engage in explaining about 13:15 in this topic.

In my opinion "Yes" everything that is in the heavens and the earth they are all prostrate to Allah, including the shadow or no shadow, objects animate and inanimate, and all that can be seen or can't seen, all prostrate to Allah, there�s nothing that doesn't prostrate to Allah.

What is meant by the verse 13:15 of "prostrate" here doesn't mean the same as when muslims prostrate in prayer/shalah, but here is a manifestation of a tribute to the glory of Allah who has created all that's in heavens and on earth, consciously or not, thankful or not, all of which are essentially at the mercy of Allah, but we don't know how they prostrate, as His word in (17:44).
It's almost the same as Angels prostrate to the Prophet of Adam, it doesn't mean the same as when the Muslims prostrate in praying, but the Angels gave respect to the Prophet of Adam.

This verse (13:15) shows that what are in the heavens and on earth are basically admitted and rely on Allah who has great power over everything.

There are several verses in the Qur'an are called the verses mutashabihat, and such verses contain parables or proverbs, so it requires a special reasoning to uncover the meaning behind that written.

We don't see our own shadow prostrate or we've never seen animals prostrate and so on, it shows about the limitations of human ability to uncover all the secrets or mysteries in this universe.

Once again, we don't know how they prostrate to Allah, but Allah knows everything, including what is whispered in the human hearts.

Regards,

Back to Top
airmano View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 March 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 884
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2016 at 2:01pm
Quote Asep:
We don't see our own shadow prostrate or we've never seen animals prostrate and so on, it shows about the limitations of human ability to uncover all the secrets or mysteries in this universe.
Once again, we don't know how they prostrate to Allah, but Allah knows everything, including what is whispered in the human hearts.


I think here you turn things upside down. One may see it as a metaphor (although I do not see what it should teach us) and I'd have no problem with it.

But we all know, that neither do animals, nor do our shadow prostrate to Allah. They don't !

To pretend the opposite (even if expressed in a mystifying sentence) is like saying: "The Quran is [always] right - even if it contradicts reality."


Airmano

Edited by airmano - 21 September 2016 at 2:04pm
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter")
Back to Top
JerryMyers View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 21 September 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 65
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerryMyers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2016 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by TG12345 TG12345 wrote:

Salaam alaikum. I have a question about the verse below.

13:15
And unto Allah (Alone) falls in prostration whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and in the afternoons.
http://searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=13&translator=5#15

Is 13:15 inclusive of every living thing, or a generality but not all things? Does it include only people/angels/jinn or also animals and plants?

Is the verse saying that every single thing created prostrates to God, as do their shadows in the mornings and afternoons?

Is this a correct understanding?

Many thanks and take care.
The verse (Quran 13:15) carries a deeper meaning than meet the eye. The phrase �falls in prostration� do not necessarily means the physical prostration but it also means everything have to obey Allah�s Will ie. the Law of Physic and the Law of Nature as willed and established by Allah. The term �willingly� means you are aware of this fact and you have surrendered yourself to His will. The term �unwillingly� means altho you may consciously deny Allah as the Creator, you are still subjected to His will ie. you and every living cells in your body have to obey the Law of Physic and the Law of Nature as established by Him. The phrase �so do their shadows in the morning and in the evening� is a kind of metaphor and it mean in every places/corners in the heavens and the earth. Notice that the verse only mention �in the morning and in the afternoon� - that�s because �shadows�  are not created but are the result of light being present. We know there are places in the heavens and the earth where light do not reach and thus in these places, shadows do not exist. This 2nd part of the verse is to further emphasize the 1st part of the verse ie. whoever in the heavens and in the earth and in places where light are present, even their shadows will prostrate � not to be taken literally as if shadows are capable of prostrating on their own free will.
Hope this help you to understand this verse better. Best Regards.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.