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Is Islam true?

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 January 2016 at 5:35am
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Besides, your definition doesn't make sense here. If you substitute it into verse 23:6, you get "Except from their wives or their married maid servant/slave", which is redundant. If you married your maid servant, then she would be your wife, wouldn't she? Why would she need to be mentioned separately?
Good reasoning, however, know that even after marrying, a slave maid would remain slave until manumitted. That is the reason the punishment of adultery by such married maid wives is prescribed half that of free wife.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim the plumber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2016 at 2:15am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

...Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess..." (Quran 23:1-6, Pickthal translation)
When it is settled that the phrase 'that their right hands possess' can't imply concubine, then the use of this phrase in this translation is only understood as 'your married maid servant/slave'. Therefore your assertion of 'Including sexual services?' are through marriage only.


Concubine is a slave you treat well for a slave.

That you would have as a companion and take to dinner parties etc.

Still a slave though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2016 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

When it is settled that the phrase 'that their right hands possess' can't imply concubine, then the use of this phrase in this translation is only understood as 'your married maid servant/slave'. Therefore your assertion of 'Including sexual services?' are through marriage only.

According to the dictionary definition of concubine may be a legal or social inferior, but she is not an actual possession, so I agree it would not be a good translation. However, the same can be said about "maid servant".

Besides, your definition doesn't make sense here. If you substitute it into verse 23:6, you get "Except from their wives or their married maid servant/slave", which is redundant. If you married your maid servant, then she would be your wife, wouldn't she? Why would she need to be mentioned separately?
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2016 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

...Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess..." (Quran 23:1-6, Pickthal translation)
When it is settled that the phrase 'that their right hands possess' can't imply concubine, then the use of this phrase in this translation is only understood as 'your married maid servant/slave'. Therefore your assertion of 'Including sexual services?' are through marriage only.

Edited by AhmadJoyia - 22 January 2016 at 7:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2016 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Same as when you pay someone, you 'own/posses' his services.

Those who were "rightfully possessed" were not paid. They were captured in war, and then bought and sold as property. There are so many examples of this it's hard to know where to start, but here is an especially charming one where Muhammad himself sells a slave who would otherwise have been freed:
"A man decided that a slave of his would be manumitted after his death and later on he was in need of money, so the Prophet took the slave and said, "Who will buy this slave from me?" Nu'aim bin 'Abdullah bought him for such and such price and the Prophet gave him the slave."
Bukhari, vol. 3, Book 34, Number 351

Quote More so, if s/he resides with you, you 'own/posses' more than her/his just services.

Including sexual services?
"Successful indeed are the believers...who guard their modesty -
Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess..."
(Quran 23:1-6, Pickthal translation)
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2016 at 10:48am
It seems silly to me, to be having a semantics argument...
it seems pretty clear that maid servant means nothing more or less than,
female slave.
Let us seek Truth together
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"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim the plumber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2016 at 1:31am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Same as when you pay someone, you 'own/posses' his services. More so, if s/he resides with you, you 'own/posses' more than her/his just services.


No you do not.

Not unless you are being exploitive.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2016 at 10:15pm
Same as when you pay someone, you 'own/posses' his services. More so, if s/he resides with you, you 'own/posses' more than her/his just services.

Edited by AhmadJoyia - 21 January 2016 at 10:19pm
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