Question about a hadith

TG12345 wrote: Some questions I have. - Why did Muhammad state that the sun has "a rising place", when there is no such thing? We know that it is the earth that goes around the sun, and what we refer to as "sunrise" and "sunset" have nothing to do with the movement of the sun and there is no "place" that the sun goes to in order to rise or set.

As always your understanding is in question.
People generally refer to sunrise and sunset because when one is standing on the earth it looks as if the sun has risen. This is how people understand the morning and dusk.

The Earth does not go around the Sun. The earth is stationary, it's the Sun, the Moon and the Stars that fo around the stationary earth.

TG12345 wrote: - If one of the signs of the end of the world is dependent on the sun doing something that it is incapable of (emerging from the "place of its setting"- a location that does not exist, given that the sun does not really "rise" or "set" from any place), what does this say about this particular prophecy?

Of course, to a doubting Thomas like you nothing is possible to God Almighty. Do you really think that it will be impossible for God Almighty to reverse the course of the Sun?

TG12345 wrote: I hope I am not being offensive or rude, but if anyone would like to discuss or debate or challenge me on what I have written and provide your input, I would be very interested. Take care and God bless.

Of course you are. You're just an ignaramous and confused phool.

TG12345 wrote: - Why did Muhammad state that the sun has "a rising place", when there is no such thing? We know that it is the earth that goes around the sun, and what we refer to as "sunrise" and "sunset" have nothing to do with the movement of the sun and there is no "place" that the sun goes to in order to rise or set.

Wa alaikum Assalam

1) Well let's start off by keeping in mind the theory of special relativity. We know that the thing that is stationary actually just depends on our inertial frame. If we assume the inertial frame to be Earth, then that would mean that the Earth becomes stationary, and the universe moves in perspective. There is no reason why one might exclude Earth as our default inertial frame and opt for taking the default frame as the universe, this is because the universe is constantly expanding, and also because we do not know the extent of our universe (and we never will in my opinion), thus we cannot be sure which thing is stationary and which is moving. As a matter of fact, it is more sensible that we chose the Earth as the default inertial frame in the light of recent research.
Read this if you want to know more about this interesting new research that puts the Big Bang Theory in danger: http://www.aboutatheism.net/articles/ghyiwfg-planck-satellite-data-and-lawrence-krauss-the-earth-is-at-the-center-of-the-universe.cfm

Moreover, even the ones who say that the Sun is stationary are wrong. The Sun also revolves around the center of the galaxy (also its axis).

Anyway, back to the matter at hand.
The reason why the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) called it �the rising place of the Sun� is the same reason why, in daily life, the news papers post timings of �sunset� and �sunrise�, and why people say �We are going to see the sunrise or sunset�, and the same reason that Japan is called �The Land of the Rising Sun�. I bet you use this term too. I hope you realize what I�m trying to say. In a gist: It is simply a linguistic term that is used in this day and age as well. You are looking at it too literally.

The Sun DOES have a place of rising, and we call it East. Look up the definition of the word 'East'

East
/iːst/
noun
"the direction towards the point of the horizon where the sun rises at the equinoxes, on the right-hand side of a person facing north."

TG12345 wrote: - If one of the signs of the end of the world is dependent on the sun doing something that it is incapable of (emerging from the "place of its setting"- a location that does not exist, given that the sun does not really "rise" or "set" from any place), what does this say about this particular prophecy?

2) Sooooo you mean to say that since, for example, newspapers say the Sun will �rise� at 6am, in actuality since the sun doesn�t �rise� at all, that means the newspapers are wrong? Moreover, that means that after 6am tomorrow there won�t be daylight at all?
I repeat what I said before: �sunset�, �sunrise�, �place of sunset�, �place of sunrise� are all linguistic phrases that are used because of the fact that it appears that the Sun rises if you�re on Earth (since your inertial frame is set as Earth by default), hence it is still used on a daily basis and not considered something impossible. And if you tell someone about the place of rising of the Sun, they will immediately tell you that that place is the East. This is what is meant by the Hadith. It means simply to tell us that the Sun will rise from the place where we saw it disappear last time (which we call West)

This is recorded in other places such as:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said, "The hour will not be established till the sun rises from the West�.�
Sahih Bukhari, Hadith # 4636

TG12345 wrote: - Why did Muhammad state that the sun has "a rising place", when there is no such thing? We know that it is the earth that goes around the sun, and what we refer to as "sunrise" and "sunset" have nothing to do with the movement of the sun and there is no "place" that the sun goes to in order to rise or set.

dani21dani wrote: Wa alaikum Assalam

The same to you.

dani21dani wrote: 1) Well let's start off by keeping in mind the theory of special relativity. We know that the thing that is stationary actually just depends on our inertial frame. If we assume the inertial frame to be Earth, then that would mean that the Earth becomes stationary, and the universe moves in perspective. There is no reason why one might exclude Earth as our default inertial frame and opt for taking the default frame as the universe, this is because the universe is constantly expanding, and also because we do not know the extent of our universe (and we never will in my opinion), thus we cannot be sure which thing is stationary and which is moving. As a matter of fact, it is more sensible that we chose the Earth as the default inertial frame in the light of recent research. Read this if you want to know more about this interesting new research that puts the Big Bang Theory in danger: http://www.aboutatheism.net/articles/ghyiwfg-planck-satellite-data-and-lawrence-krauss-the-earth-is-at-the-center-of-the-universe.cfm Moreover, even the ones who say that the Sun is stationary are wrong. The Sun also revolves around the center of the galaxy (also its axis).

Thank you for the link. I don't really know that much about the Big Bang Theory and have little to say about how true or false it is, so I won't make comments on it.

I agree with you that from a point of view on the earth, it looks like the sun is moving around it, and "rising" and "setting" on it.

I agree also that the sun is in motion and is not stationary. However, as can be clearly seen, the earth orbits the sun... not the other way around.
The sun does move around the centre of the galaxy, but not around the earth.

dani21dani wrote: Anyway, back to the matter at hand. The reason why the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) called it �the rising place of the Sun� is the same reason why, in daily life, the news papers post timings of �sunset� and �sunrise�, and why people say �We are going to see the sunrise or sunset�, and the same reason that Japan is called �The Land of the Rising Sun�. I bet you use this term too. I hope you realize what I�m trying to say. In a gist: It is simply a linguistic term that is used in this day and age as well. You are looking at it too literally. The Sun DOES have a place of rising, and we call it East. Look up the definition of the word 'East' East /iːst/ noun "the direction towards the point of the horizon where the sun rises at the equinoxes, on the right-hand side of a person facing north."

I am very much aware that people use terms like "sunrise" and "sunset" and have done so through the ages.

A major difference however between the usage of these terms now and in the 7th century AD, is that no one today believes that the sun literally rises and sets on the earth, or that it moves around the earth.
However, this was not the case when Muhammad was alive. Geocentricity was accepted as the truth by most people in the world, up until around the time of Galileo. The heliocentric model that we know exists today was not something people were aware of back then.

Had Muhammad merely said that the sun "rises" and "sets", I would not have been writing this post.

However, he claimed that the sun "goes" to a "rising place". The sun does not "go" to the east or west of the earth, the earth spins around it and various parts of our planet are exposed to it at different times.

TG12345 wrote: - If one of the signs of the end of the world is dependent on the sun doing something that it is incapable of (emerging from the "place of its setting"- a location that does not exist, given that the sun does not really "rise" or "set" from any place), what does this say about this particular prophecy?

dani21dani wrote: 2) Sooooo you mean to say that since, for example, newspapers say the Sun will �rise� at 6am, in actuality since the sun doesn�t �rise� at all, that means the newspapers are wrong? Moreover, that means that after 6am tomorrow there won�t be daylight at all? I repeat what I said before: �sunset�, �sunrise�, �place of sunset�, �place of sunrise� are all linguistic phrases that are used because of the fact that it appears that the Sun rises if you�re on Earth (since your inertial frame is set as Earth by default), hence it is still used on a daily basis and not considered something impossible. And if you tell someone about the place of rising of the Sun, they will immediately tell you that that place is the East. This is what is meant by the Hadith. It means simply to tell us that the Sun will rise from the place where we saw it disappear last time (which we call West) This is recorded in other places such as: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said, "The hour will not be established till the sun rises from the West�.� Sahih Bukhari, Hadith # 4636

Your point would be a very well made one if, like the newspapers, Muhammad would have said merely that the sun "rises", or even "rises in the east"... although given the fact that most people of his time accepted a geocentric view of the world and literally believed the sun traveled around the world and did rise in the east and set in the west, I think it would have been unwise wording.

However, let's ignore that. Let's do what you did, and make a comparison to the newspapers and newscasters today.

Yes, a newscaster may say the sun will "rise" at 6:00 AM.
Do you think he would say that by 6:00 in the morning, after it had set the previous day and enjoyed a rest, the sun will make a journey to its "rising place" and go up from that location? I challenge you to show me just one television or radio announcer who would say something like this, satirical pieces like The Onion are excluded.

It would be like the difference between someone saying "it is raining cats and dogs", and someone saying that there are poodles and tabby's falling from the sky.

Why did Muhammad feel the need to tell someone that the sun travels to and from a "rising place"? He wasn't even asked a question about this, he asked Abu Dharr if he knows where the sun "goes" at the time of sunset.

Also, Muhammad said that after it sets, the sun prostrates under the throne and "remains there" until it is asked to rise again. After it is given this order it allegedly goes to its "rising place", emerges from there, glides until it reaches "its place of rest" and falls prostrate until it is told to rise again.

How can this be possible, given that the sun is always rising at some point in the world? It cannot remain in a state of rest before it "rises", since at any given time at some points on the planet it is always "rising" and at other points it is always "setting".

Muhammad asked Abu Dharr, during sunset, if he "knows where the sun goes". Of course, the sun is not "going" anywhere during sunset that it isn't going to at any other point in time. It is constantly on the move, not stopping at a place of "rest" and then after taking a break (I will not say it doesn't prostrate, since that is part of the Unseen and as a Christian I also believe that the natural world worships God in its own way), going to a "rising" place. Also, the sun does not "return from whence it came" when it "rises" the next time, since it is moving around an orbit around the milky way and that particular orbit takes some 230 million years to make.


For reference, I am copying and pasting the hadith again below:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) one day said:

Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.
http://sunnah.com/muslim/1/306

Edited by TG12345 - 03 October 2015 at 10:09pm

May be I can also had a little remark to this funny discussions.
Precisely spoken: The moon does not rotate around the earth, but earth and moon rotate around their (common) center of gravity.
The same applies to the earth (-moon system) and the sun, but the sun is so much heavier that it is pretty ok to say that the earth goes around the sun.

Same for galaxies, double star formations and so on.

And actually, if the prophet says something else, it is not my problem.

Airmano

Edited by airmano - 04 October 2015 at 12:33am